63 replies to this topic

[ivonbeton]

First off, I've done my fair share of farming (Still far away from emperor, hehe). I don't know what damage some of you are getting, but I've never had any problems tagging mobs in DE's and I'm not built glass cannon. Usually 2 or 3 detonated clusterbombs from melee range will do the trick, couple with some basic attacks if needed. I haven't found anything quite as effective for DE farming besides dagger storm.

I do find SB a tad boring, but for me that's because of the mechanism. You get two attacks which require no skill while the other 3 are utility skills. But ofcourse this, besides it's aoe damage if used properly, is why the SB is so strong. A teleport, evade which also cripples and a combo field, what more do you want? And whoever claims it's pointless in dungeons... I couldn't disagree more. There are moments you would kill for an extra evade, the poison and combo field work wonders in dungeons and on top of that you have a teleport. Many times over has Infiltrator's arrow saved my life or the life of teammates (Immobilized and your teammate is dieing? No time to run to him before he is gibbed? No problem), not to mention it makes certain parts (e.g traps) a real breeze.

EDIT: In WvW clusterbomb spam can be a real pain for your opponent, and if it gets too boring you can always go in with daggerstorm and teleport out with infiltrator's arrow

Edited by ivonbeton, 30 October 2012 - 04:01 AM.

[Minion]

When you're playing in an organised party, you should let your thief do what it excels at. If you want extra dodges, spec 15 acrobatics or take RoI. The best part about it is the poison field, which is massive. Apart from that it's a dull weapon.

Edited by Minion, 30 October 2012 - 10:51 AM.

[Vayra86]

Vysander, on 29 October 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

Well, that is what i already know (difficulty of tagging in CS). My question is what do use that is better at tagging then the shortbow?

Traps. Caltrops and Spike Trap works nicely together with a cluster, you will tag everything under your template.

[Ensign]

The only really redeeming quality of Short Bow in an organized team is the spammable blast finisher.  The AoE is nice for clearing trash but the damage is trash outside of AoE situations, and the poison field can do more harm than good since it is a weak field in general.

I hate how the weapon plays and how unresponsive it is, but I don't need a second melee set, pistol makes me want to vomit from how bad it is, and teleporting around with SB #5 is nice, so it gets taken by default.

[Vysander]

Vayra86, on 30 October 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

Traps. Caltrops and Spike Trap works nicely together with a cluster, you will tag everything under your template.

Still wont work for farming the pertinent path events (or however you spell it). Problem is the mobs are burst from full to nothing in about a second after the farm. If you're lucky you can tag a couple with some cluster bomb shotgun, but any kind of ticks would take to long to have any effect. (not an issue on a smaller server with less people, but with 20-30 people farming in one spot, with 5 firery rain of deaths going when the mobs spawn.... yea)

[GSSB Lunaspike]

Knuckle Joe, on 30 October 2012 - 03:08 AM, said:

You seem like an intelligent person, I am pretty sure you already know:

*AoE weakness when using choking gas traited.
*Strong DPS with detonated clsuter bomb + bleeding.
*Having the single best, spamable blast finisher in the game, which lets a thief:
  - Give mass might to the entire party WHILE still doing considerable DPS (if you tell your friends to drop Fire fields on a mob)
  - Mass healing with water fields (You may think it's negligible, but I can assure you i've saved my team from a wipe more than one   time with this).
  - Pretty much perma retaliation to the party if a guardian is in your team.
  - Being able to skip unnecessary mobs via stealthing for 15 seconds your entire party with cluster bomb + Smoke screen, speeding up farming runs.

Any finisher can only work with a single combo field. So no.

[Vayra86]

Vysander, on 30 October 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

Still wont work for farming the pertinent path events (or however you spell it). Problem is the mobs are burst from full to nothing in about a second after the farm. If you're lucky you can tag a couple with some cluster bomb shotgun, but any kind of ticks would take to long to have any effect. (not an issue on a smaller server with less people, but with 20-30 people farming in one spot, with 5 firery rain of deaths going when the mobs spawn.... yea)

Since Penitent Path was changed and is no longer entirely limited to the small space in front of the gate, the mobs are more spread out making it harder overall to get all the kills. But in general, at any 'nuke spot', if you drop the caltrops just before the wave hits you will get your kills when coupled with Clusters. Mobs can still get Bleeds when they run in Invulnerable - even if they dont show it as such the latency shift actually does make a tick land, which makes you tag it already.

It always depends on whether there are 20 or 50 players there if you get your kills, this is no different for any class. Join a group to get kills instead if you are worried about missing them. I suffer missing kills as well on the Elementalist and Guardian, this is not purely a Thief issue.

[Jessal]

Capn_Crass, on 29 October 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

Or they've used it and still think it's lame. It has nothing to do with how effective it is or how useful a tool it is, and everything to do with hating everything about it's gameplay. Like everyone else, I pretty much have a shortbow grafted into my second weapon set. They're incredibly useful and fill a lot of gaps in thief capability that are otherwise difficult or impossible to fill....

Shortbow is the minivan of the thief weapon world. Effective, but lame.

I completely agree with everyone here, that they are incredibly useful in oh, so many ways - but I think part of the hate on SB isn't just that it is "the minivan of the theif weapon world" (which is an amazing comparison).
I think it's also that it's difficult to get a handle on - you really have to know what you're doing, and to strategize well when you're using a SB, in any environment (WvW, PvE...). Double pistol, you can spam relatively easily and get alright results at a distance. But to get the amazing ability to move at will with SB's 5, debilitate with 4, cluster bomb effectively... you have to be good at coordinating your every movement - it's not twitch reactions, you're manipulating and building an entire strategy.
So I'd say, on top of being a minivan, it's also like sitting an exam - you're brain's gotta be working hard for you to be an effective, SB weilding Theif. I think, some people aren't as comfortable with that kind of strategizing pre-requisite.

TL/DR: Effective SB use is also challenging on the brain.

Happy to see the "minivan" pride, though!

Edited by Jessal, 30 October 2012 - 05:06 PM.

[dynia666]

shortbow for thief is a must faster you realise that faster make your life easier (best aoe weapon in game) 1 2 skill for best aoe in game 4 skill for cut heals also 2 finisher 5 for teleport 3 for spam dodges you can spam dodges like mad with it

best set for use with dps set its shortbow and p/p or d/d ofc other setup for bleeds

and shortbow + 15 in acrobatics make you ninja ( + vigor on heal + boutifull thief from trickery give masiv stamina regen for dodges ^^)

[metalsazz]

GSSB Lunaspike, on 30 October 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

Any finisher can only work with a single combo field. So no.

Good thing thieves can use it more than once, So yes.

[Dairuiner]

SB may be a minivan, but it has a turbocharger under the hood and a bottle of NOS in the trunk, both of which are activated by hidden switches. Just gotta find them.

[Capn_Crass]

Dairuiner, on 30 October 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

SB may be a minivan, but it has a turbocharger under the hood and a bottle of NOS in the trunk, both of which are activated by hidden switches. Just gotta find them.

Reminds me of a story, actually. A friend of mine's dad told me one of his friends took a '70s land barge station wagon and turned it into a drag car. Tied a string with a washer on it onto the fan and put a hole in the exhaust manifold to pour a bit of oil in, so the car would rattle and smoke when he drove it. Then he'd race people for cash. Apparently he made quite a killing until everyone in the area knew he had a ringer.

He still had to drive a station wagon, though.

[Knuckle Joe]

GSSB Lunaspike, on 30 October 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

Any finisher can only work with a single combo field. So no.

I'm aware of that, I never said you could get all those with a single blast finisher.

[Dairuiner]

Capn_Crass, on 30 October 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

He still had to drive a station wagon, though.

Reminds me a story of a guy who was given a free horse, but he wouldn't receive it before checking its teeth...

[sanctuaire]

while changing gears most often in certain dungeons and situations,
shortbow almost  doesn't leave as my 2nd set.

(like using a specific set for specific dungeon routes like melees for
ac mounds, hotw boss in ice, group zerg for alpha in coe, ranged for
TA, arah bosses ect.)

-------

-its the most efficient tagger for thieves in CS farming.
really no idea what they say when you don't get anything with SB there.

when running a full farming set (explo+ trav 1/pirates5 with orich opal accessories),
+omnoms. DA only to 5 (hence, lower power),
and even just spamming the auto attack  (with its helpful auto chaining)
can fill up my entire inventory slot on average
with 2 full tar>plinx>abomi>penitent>shelter routes in a few mins.
so being inefficient in CS is definitely false. doing it too with mobs of 30-50
farming with me.

and if you know where they spawn and where their invulnerebility
phase will stop, a well timed CB, you can quickly do  tag-farming even faster.
d/d, s/p doesn't even come close.

-------

-for dungeons, after completing all of the routes after few times (fighting all the way)
like anything; gets boring. there's no more added achievement, and
time/reward ratio-wise is inefficient.

so mostly we do skipway on dungeons nowadays, only fighting
what is absolutely necessary to kill. and while most of my guildies are heavies,
found SB's no.3 (quick back-turn running) and 5 absolutely crucial when doing skipway
with them, especially on relatively long skiprun of the two knight groups + poison flower/puppy
tunnel on TA.

-------

-for WvW, SB's mobility is indespensible when doing ninja raids of unprotected points.
and when you're running a conditions set, can actually get timely defender kills spamming
poison field on their walls, dissuading and preventing them from raining down on your rammers

.

Edited by sanctuaire, 31 October 2012 - 04:54 AM.

[silentdecay01]

P/P is a far better then shortbow for range......in all ways, in dung, wvw, solo w/e,

P/P does FAR more dps then a short bow, allows you to be a tank, cc ect,  D/D has the highested AOE dps  in the Thief's wep sets with DB. ShortBow Aoe dps gets to be pretty useless as its weak, compared to a D/D DB build. Death Blossom allows you to dodge 24/7 as well while doing the highest aoe dmg in game,

Edited by silentdecay01, 31 October 2012 - 09:53 AM.

[tony32p]

I love the shortbow in explorables but not for its dmg... pistol/pistol really takes the cake in that department....    I love the shortbow for its mobility..   its very easy for me to kite whatever i want with its teleport skill.  if my group runs into a hard spot and wipes, i can kite whatever it is until they all run back so the hp does not reset:)    also helps speed runs. if your like me and run through sections of most dungeons. shortbow also makes that super easy..     thinking about carrying a few pistols around with me but i cant find the nerve to unequip my shortbow..  i just love the mobility.

[Vysander]

silentdecay01, on 31 October 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

P/P is a far better then shortbow for range......in all ways, in dung, wvw, solo w/e,

P/P does FAR more dps then a short bow, allows you to be a tank, cc ect,  D/D has the highested AOE dps  in the Thief's wep sets with DB. ShortBow Aoe dps gets to be pretty useless as its weak, compared to a D/D DB build. Death Blossom allows you to dodge 24/7 as well while doing the highest aoe dmg in game,

Ok.... i think you misunderstand the typical use of AoE... Most here i would imagine are not talking about a small player based AoE that you have to have people practically standing together to hit them all. That along with the fact that unless your'e going a condition dmg build, DeathBlossom does not have that great of dmg.

And then if you're going condition dmg, the true AoE poison the bow has, plus the AoE explosion (that stacks bleed) as well as the bouncing shot (that stacks bleed) would be far superior to the maybe 200 radius Player based AoE that DB has (both in Area of effect, and in ammount of bleeds per initiative use)

P/P is of course more Single target dmg then a shortbow.... if it wasnt, then what would be the point of having P/P? And if you're running P/P for the blind field, then D/P will give you more from auto attacks then P/P would.

Frankly i find P/P the most niche weapon set (for WvW, more use in PvE). Granted this can come down to preference, but the pistol excels at single target dmg. D/D does even more dmg then P/P. The only time I would use P/P over D/D is if getting in range for D/D gets you one shot ( some Champions, some Dungeons etc.) Therefore, there's no reason to run P/P over D/D in most WvW situations. (in fact, i never run P/P in WvW, and when i do, i regret it almost immediatly).

If you need to be at range in WvW, there's typically more then one person to be attacking, otherwise you wouldn't need to be at range. Even seiging/defending towers SB is far better. The clusterbomb is often the only way to throw dmg down or up without having to stand in range of whoever is attacking for a prolonged time (throw cluster, roll away). Bouncing arrow is better for attacking then defending, but is by far better then pistol (except maybe taking out cannons/hot oil) due to the bounces being able to hit targets no one can see yet.

Pistols do however, greatly excel at attacking a gate. I think unload is the single best skill for attacking gates in this game.

Edited by Vysander, 31 October 2012 - 01:43 PM.

[redcomyn]

So what do you think is the best for when doing general PVE against multiple mobs, solo, P/P or shortbow? It seems to me that you are far more likely to die with shortbow than using dual pistols. If you are alone, there is no one else to take any aggro off of you, and you get swarmed by the mobs. What do you shortbow lovers do in that situation to stay alive? Give me a tactic and I will try it out.

[Vysander]

redcomyn, on 31 October 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

So what do you think is the best for when doing general PVE against multiple mobs, solo, P/P or shortbow? It seems to me that you are far more likely to die with shortbow than using dual pistols. If you are alone, there is no one else to take any aggro off of you, and you get swarmed by the mobs. What do you shortbow lovers do in that situation to stay alive? Give me a tactic and I will try it out.

I kite and spam cluster bomb with detonate. Obviously it depends on what map you are talking about, how many and what kind of CC do the mobs have etc. But typically if you're getting surrounded by mobs with a shortbow, you must not be using 3/5 or W/A/S/D (and Q/E if that's you strafe...).

Though that is only when there's 5+ mobs or so. Typically i can do just fine using D/D for PvE enounters (D/D being my fav weapon set).

The reason i run SB over P/P, is that if i want to kill single targets quickly, i will use D/D. If i want to kill large groups, i will use SB. The only time i find P/P to be a bigger advantage then D/D is when you are in a DE, dungeon, or some other instance where there are mobs that are constantly hitting you for half your health or greater.

This is all my opinion, and some people may prefer to use P/P in large mob situations for the blind field, but then that effectively removes the dmg advantage pistol would have over the SB to begin with. The only thing i will not say, and will argue with, is someone saying X weapon is better then X weapon in every situation. Because anything can be viable in any instance, it depends on how the person is stat/traited, and what their playstyle is.

These are my opinions formed over playing the thief almost exclusively since release, and extensively using all weapons in all situations to find what i like best and when.

Edited by Vysander, 31 October 2012 - 04:24 PM.

[Kutsus]

silentdecay01, on 31 October 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

P/P is a far better then shortbow for range......in all ways, in dung, wvw, solo w/e,

P/P does FAR more dps then a short bow, allows you to be a tank, cc ect,  D/D has the highested AOE dps  in the Thief's wep sets with DB. ShortBow Aoe dps gets to be pretty useless as its weak, compared to a D/D DB build. Death Blossom allows you to dodge 24/7 as well while doing the highest aoe dmg in game,

Shortbow cluster bombs take less initiative and do far more damage output than LDB to more targets. It's not uncommon to see 8k+ cluster bomb hits in PvE with glass gear.

[silentdecay01]

.....short bow with out a condition spec is useless...Death Blossom is the highest aoe dps a thief has..........and a p/p on switch is far more useful in both pve/pvp/dung/wvw you bring more utility/become tanky, as well as p/p will out dps short bow.


I would consider reviewing Minnions guide/math, as well as others. Short bow is just fun for people, but not very useful.

[Uder]

The amount of noobs claiming its crap in this thread is funny, ever tried shotgunning with a shortbow? Combine it with a skill I won't tell now and everything falls within cluster bomb range. It's also a must have weapon while penetrating walls while sieging. 5k+ aoe ftw.

[Vysander]

silentdecay01, on 02 November 2012 - 06:53 AM, said:

.....short bow with out a condition spec is useless...Death Blossom is the highest aoe dps a thief has..........and a p/p on switch is far more useful in both pve/pvp/dung/wvw you bring more utility/become tanky, as well as p/p will out dps short bow.


I would consider reviewing Minnions guide/math, as well as others. Short bow is just fun for people, but not very useful.

I have a rampagers, a carrion, a berskers (rings, armor, and weapons) and a few peices of valkyire that i played around with. I have every weapon for thief in each variety. I have no need for a guide when i can view the results of various forms of dmg myself.

What do you think the people who wrote the guides did? Sat around and waited for someone to spoon feed them a build then write about it? No, they tested stuff, then made a guide based around their findings, which goes one of two ways.

Minion's: http://www.guildwars...le-thief-build/
Covers the most single target dmg dealing build on paper. mentions the two alternative builds, and his preferences.


Shadow's: http://www.guildwars...-a-basic-guide/
Covers a wider range of information, and focuses more on the utility side of the thief instead of just spam unload for max DPS. All to his preference.

"Death Blossom is the highest aoe dps a thief has" No, no it isnt (Maybe if you're running condi dmg.. but then clusterbomb shotgun is still more dmg). Plus its a player based AoE.... kinda useless when attacking keeps and towers.

As the guy above me said, show me another weapon that can do 5k+ crits to people to people on the tops of walls that you cant even see.

Now, if you feel this way about the shortbow because you just dont like the way it plays, then fine. Thats your preference. But that's no reason to degrade the most versatile weapon the thief has, and make statements that are only true in certain builds and make it sound like its for everything (misinformation and all that)

Edited by Vysander, 02 November 2012 - 01:26 PM.

[Ninja Battle Lion]

At 25, Shortbow is my main weapon. 900 might seem like a drag but the Thief's mobility more than makes up for it. The AoE potential and positioning is just ridiculous. I run P/P on the side to deal with nasty vet enemies and such. Don't see any compelling reasons to change any of it.

[ogrejd]

Knuckle Joe, on 27 October 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

Any thief that says he doesn't like shortbow has obviously never used it properly. Cluster bomb obliterates everything it touches, especially when detonated and all 3 bombs hit your targets.

Or is like me and just can't use ground-targeted AOEs while trying to kite** - and Thieves are right down near the bottom when it comes to being able to stand still and take hits...  And without Cluster Bomb (maybe Choking Gas - not a fan of combo fields that barely last long enough for you to get a shot in), all Thief Short Bow has left is Trick Shot and Disabling Shot (Infiltrator's Arrow has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Maybe at 4i, it'd have some worth so that you actially have Initiative left over when you swap to your melee...)

** Having to keep RMB pressed so I can actually keep my foes in front of me means LMB can't be pressed to launch it. Even worse with fast ground targeting on since RMB makes the pointer disappear, so I lose precious time stopping and trying to get my mouse in position again before I hit 2...

[Gremlin]

ogrejd, on 15 November 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

Or is like me and just can't use ground-targeted AOEs while trying to kite** - and Thieves are right down near the bottom when it comes to being able to stand still and take hits...  And without Cluster Bomb (maybe Choking Gas - not a fan of combo fields that barely last long enough for you to get a shot in), all Thief Short Bow has left is Trick Shot and Disabling Shot (Infiltrator's Arrow has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Maybe at 4i, it'd have some worth so that you actially have Initiative left over when you swap to your melee...)

** Having to keep RMB pressed so I can actually keep my foes in front of me means LMB can't be pressed to launch it. Even worse with fast ground targeting on since RMB makes the pointer disappear, so I lose precious time stopping and trying to get my mouse in position again before I hit 2...

Definitely my problem I really have to do a left hand does the moving right hand does the aiming.
So its stop moving and press skill keys or stop aiming and press skill keys.

I get around it by having skill one and nearest enemy on my 2 extra mouse keys.
But I can never use a ground effect skill without standing still to do so.

I knw some can and thats great I am a little less coordinated, I bet if you can touch type you can always find the right key and get back to wasd keys without looking down from the screen.

Im banking on alternative game controler or multi button mouse to save my game till then ground effect skills are problematic.
Please God an option to make them targetable on an enemy, or an option to auto run in any direction.
Roll on Christmas and a Razer naga

Edited by Gremlin, 15 November 2012 - 12:25 PM.

[Vackashken]

I wish they did the ground targeting like TSW. You could either use the mouse (to place it on an area) or if you just wanted to drop it straight on a target you would hit alt and whatever number the attack was on. You had both at your disposal instantly.

[viespea]

Shortbow is thief best weapon when you play with a group of people, also best in WvW. For solo, daggers and maybe sword are great, for dungeons i find dual pistol better. SB is best at running/escaping, farming ore, scout missions in WvW. It`s a must have weapon.

[pestizide]

Minion, on 29 October 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

I don't. I farm dungeons and map completion. Sitting in one zone and doing DEs isn't my idea of fun. Tried it a few times and there were so many players there who knew when the spawns were coming, that I didn't have enough time to get any damage down. Dungeons profit more anyway. And ya i pray gaem, not just theory.

This is an old post.. but I'm shocked to see this miss-information posted by you Minion.   Dungeons don't make more money than cursed shore DE chains and shortbow is the absolute best option for tagging some of the bigger waves of mobs there.  I farmed pretty much my entire legendary in cursed shore and sword works fine for smaller packs but clusterbomb pbae is the only way a thief competes on others.