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Feeling sub-par in sPvP


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#1 Abidan

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 02:11 AM

I am an experienced MMO player with nearly a decade of MMO play under my belt.  With that being said, I am not naive on how MMO's operate, but man do I feel extremely sub-par in pvp compared to other classes, anyone else experience this, or do I just need to find a better build?

#2 turbo234

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 02:14 AM

Well what are you playing with first. Hard to say if you need to change anything if we have no idea what you're running with.

#3 Abidan

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 02:27 AM

I have been running a sword/sword bleed build and rifle.  I have ran double axe/war horn etc.  currently traited 10/30/30

#4 elithrar

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 07:11 AM

You need to figure out what you want to do and build around it.

Support? Run with something like Hammer + Axe/Mace and spec for defense/heal on shout/etc.
DPS?
Bunker?

I run a support build (http://en.gw2skills....LbWuskZtgYAxUEA) and it's very effective in tPvP so far. Typically swap out my amulet to push a bit more DPS in hot-join games.

#5 Veganno

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 05:08 PM

You're playing Warrior the hard way (conditions)... it's the fun way, tho.
IMHO, drop the rifle (main skills = power based) and join the Longbow wagon :D (I'm actually the only one in that wagon that I see atm lol) Go all the way into condition damage with no power.
Drop the 10 points in power and get the faster signets thing in Tactics so you can use the Signet that gives you Adrenaline (and less recharge on your Elite)... your F1 Longbow skill is great. Use it, switch to swords and apply dem bleed stacks.

You can also forget all this and play Warrior like everyone else does, with greatsword, axe+shield + frenzy + 100b = profit.
Send a message if you still want to play the condition warrior to Shakiyamuni :) good luck.

#6 Abidan

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 06:19 PM

Veganno, I have been trying the long bow, sword/sword condition build and have been doing decent.  I am starting to dig the long-bow condition build man!  Thanks for the responses guys.

#7 Garethh

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 11:43 PM

The class is sooo close to a good condi spec too.
I honestly, after seeing tooltips was going to switch over from my ranger.
Flurry looked like a mother*ing truck.
With all the +crit traits and whatnot, hitting 10 times at 90~% crit rate, procing a 5s bleed on a 30% of the crits and a 7s one on 60% would have been roughly 8~k total in shortish duration bleeds.
And that's every 10~ seconds.
(for being left vulnerable for the 3~s cast and whatnot, I could live with that kind of return)

Longbows fire spreadshot lists a 2s burn from each arrow, that would be 6s of burning or 3.6k in burn dmg on that 6s CD.  That is all around a lil better than the ranger's splitblade on axe mainhand
The longbow's spammable also hits twice every volley which make a higher hits/sec than the ranger shortbow, that combined whith how warriors get better procs from critting and more easily gotten fury... in the mists I was usually getting up to 7-8 bleed stacks from the crit procs on longbow alone (with fury up).  The ranger spammable caps out at 6-8~ WITH FLANKING.
That and longbow was building adrenaline like a beast, the 'adrenaline on crit' trait along with it hitting twice and critting 60-80% of the time made 2-4 (on average 3.4) adrenaline a volley...
That with the SOLID immobilizing, less but better controlled cleansing, much better self healing and toughness, endure pain (WHICH BREAKS STUNS!! (unlike the ranger 'protect me')) and leaps threw that fire field... ugh it seemed like it'd be close to if not a lil better than the ranger at times.  
Spoiler

But flurry can only procs one sigil of earth bleed a cast (so you lose 3~k bleed dmg a flurry, or 37% of its dmg in a crit heavy setup).
The longbows fire volley actually only throws out a 1s burn per arrow instead of 2 (half dmg).
That really hurts.
Those were the main sources of condi dmg I was going to run short of the longbow's fire field...
The 5s CD weapon swap would have let me just throw them out pretty much on CD every time (to be pretty much constant burning, dodge or long imobs left and right and flurry just coming home with a truck of bleed stacks, that combined with allright spammable dmg and a decent mix of utility would have been a solid spec.)

Because of all that, critting with the sword for condition dmg is near worthless since flurry doesn't benifit and the spammable is not only melee but doesn't attack notably fast, but the thing is, longbow needs crit to be a decent condition weapon... and critting was the builds main source of addrenaline...
That's what annoys me to no end.

So close, I'll post the build anyways it would have been decently high tourny grade if everything worked...
http://gw2skills.net...IbRuikFtqYUxeEA

Swapping out bolas depending on encounter
(for a stunbreak against spike thieves.
balanced stance for group fights since I probly can't save the elite signet for stability-stomps all the time, probly have to use it to full cleanse and throw up the fury/swiftness buffs more than not.
Fear me against those specs you have to interrupt (to stop heals or spikes or stealth rezes/stomps))
I was actually getting a bit ditsy before I tested stuff, flurrying people in their side (so they couldn't attack back) was going to be hellsa fun.
Kiters who normally are a joke to get flanking on would be a joke to pull it off on, other people you could just shield bash then sidestep out of the frontal arc before flurrying, or longbow immob or bolas into the same deal.
It would have been BRILLIANT in group fights with all the long duration immobilizes, solid dmg, high toughness/invulns/cleanses/healing (healing surge goes FOR HALF your health!!!! and gives 1 bar of adrenaline, LOL) too.

Edited by Garethh, 02 November 2012 - 03:31 AM.


#8 Sannhet

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 04:29 AM

View PostGarethh, on 01 November 2012 - 11:43 PM, said:

The ranger has its pet (which does solid physical dmg without any stats in power), much better evading, poisons, better but not so controlled of cleansing, both weapon sets have ranged spammables, protect me is on a 48s CD (at least in my setup).

The ranger has its pet with its terrible AI that is incapable of hitting moving targets, has no cleanse outside of healing spring (which they have to stand in) and Signet of Renewal, which is RNG passive or needs their pet within melee range of them for the active. SB and LB for ranger are nowhere near as good as LB and Rifle for war, respectively, and while Protect Me is good, it kills your pet and any potential CC they were going to bring.

Let's not pretend Rangers are good. Not that Warriors are anything more than sub-par, but they're both in the same boat in sPvP.

Edited by Sannhet, 03 November 2012 - 04:30 AM.


#9 Garethh

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 05:43 AM

This is a little off-topic so I'll spoiler it:
Spoiler
But yeah wariors do need a bit of help when it comes to condition dmg.
For direct dmg... greatsword warriors are champs.
PZ (if you don't know, really high ranking guild) has a baller one who just runs around rolling face all day.

Edited by Garethh, 03 November 2012 - 06:46 AM.


#10 Sannhet

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 04:20 PM

View PostGarethh, on 03 November 2012 - 05:43 AM, said:

This is a little off-topic so I'll spoiler it:
Spoiler
But yeah wariors do need a bit of help when it comes to condition dmg.
For direct dmg... greatsword warriors are champs.
PZ (if you don't know, really high ranking guild) has a baller one who just runs around rolling face all day.

While I did forget about empathetic bond (mainly because I ran power/crit builds on my Ranger when he was using SB, but he's now GS for hotjoins as I don't do tourneys on him anymore and I find it more fun), was it really necessary to throw an insult in your post merely because we have differing opinions on the state of the class? Doesn't exactly show a high level of maturity.

All that aside, I am of the personal opinion that 1 or 1.5 good specs (there is actually a decent ranger spec that JROH has been talking about on the Ranger forums I have yet to give a try but I'm excited about doing so when I have time) in sPvP does not a "balanced" sPvP class make.

#11 Garethh

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 07:30 PM

View PostSannhet, on 03 November 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

While I did forget about empathetic bond (mainly because I ran power/crit builds on my Ranger when he was using SB, but he's now GS for hotjoins as I don't do tourneys on him anymore and I find it more fun), was it really necessary to throw an insult in your post merely because we have differing opinions on the state of the class? Doesn't exactly show a high level of maturity.

All that aside, I am of the personal opinion that 1 or 1.5 good specs (there is actually a decent ranger spec that JROH has been talking about on the Ranger forums I have yet to give a try but I'm excited about doing so when I have time) in sPvP does not a "balanced" sPvP class make.
Calling good or workable things terrible or bad makes me extremely skeptical, sorry.

And, I'm trying to fallow you but, where did a "balanced" SPvP makeup come from? (and why is it in quotes?? are you quoting an unnamed person in another thread?)
Aaaanyways, best of luck with the ranger it is a fun class :)
Evades for days.
The warrior is close to being comparable on the condition front, maybe in this nov 15th patch a few of those bugs will be sorted out and the spec will be in working order.
If it just gets its condition output bumped up it should be doing wonders in SPvP play.

Edited by Garethh, 03 November 2012 - 07:41 PM.


#12 Sannhet

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 10:41 PM

View PostGarethh, on 03 November 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

Calling good or workable things terrible or bad makes me extremely skeptical, sorry.

And, I'm trying to fallow you but, where did a "balanced" SPvP makeup come from? (and why is it in quotes?? are you quoting an unnamed person in another thread?)
Aaaanyways, best of luck with the ranger it is a fun class :)
Evades for days.
The warrior is close to being comparable on the condition front, maybe in this nov 15th patch a few of those bugs will be sorted out and the spec will be in working order.
If it just gets its condition output bumped up it should be doing wonders in SPvP play.

Skeptical and rude are completely different words. I'm also confused by where I used the words "terrible" or "bad".

And pardon, I do apologize, "balanced" is a word a lot of people like to throw around on this forum, and much like you with skeptical, they intend something completely different than its actual meaning. That was not a barb aimed at you, because I don't do that, unlike yourself apparently. I played Ranger before Warrior, and even though both are somewhat sub-par, I enjoy the Warrior more than the Ranger in tourneys. Of course on the flip side I enjoy Ranger more than Warrior in hotjoins.

There are several things I would like to see fixed for the Warrior before increasing their condition damage builds effectiveness, but I certainly wouldn't complain if that was something that happened. I would also enjoy them fixing a few things for Rangers, but as you have so adamantly tried to change the subject, I will save that for another forum. Probably something I should have done regardless.

Edited by Sannhet, 03 November 2012 - 10:42 PM.


#13 Garethh

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 11:43 PM

Spoiler

Do people still run that warrior retaliation build??
I remember seeing a bit of it a few months back but then it just disappeared, what happened to it???

Edited by Garethh, 04 November 2012 - 12:32 AM.


#14 Sannhet

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:57 PM

View PostGarethh, on 03 November 2012 - 11:43 PM, said:

Spoiler

Do people still run that warrior retaliation build??
I remember seeing a bit of it a few months back but then it just disappeared, what happened to it???

I would go so far as to say I know quite a bit about the class, though mind you, I'm no expert. The gaps in my memory as far as traits, etc. are largely due to having 3 80s, all 3 of which I have played "extensively" (not really sure what would be extensive to you, thus the quotes) in tourneys, not with any high level groups ofc, but premades nonetheless. Playing multiple classes for someone like me with a poor memory allows some things to slip through the cracks occasionally, such as the slip up you have latched onto. However, as I believe I stated, I have not played the ranger as anything other than GS in a couple weeks and when I *did* run him in tourneys it was as power/crit SB, as we had a condimancer roaming with me, therefore I had little experience (read: little, not none) with Empathetic Bond.

I am not a fan of the downside to Protect Me, largely because it is one of the only immunities with a downside, but on the other hand it does protect against condition damage as well, which the others, afaik, do not. With that in mind, lets say I'll revise my opinion for now. Keep in mind that it was just that, however: an opinion, one which I was open to have changed.

You are correct, I did use the word terrible, and good catch. Now are you really going to tell me that the pet AI in this MMO is not terrible? Your point is that you can work around it, and I agree. In fact, working around it well largely separates the good Rangers from the not-so-good Rangers in my mind. However, if I had meant unsalvageable, I would have said that and not what I did.

"Good" is highly subjective. If you think the class is all-around good in its current iteration, more power to you. The beauty of free will is that people have differing opinions. It's not like I'm on here crying that the sky is falling, the class DOES have its good parts as well, and if I honestly hated everything to do with it, I wouldn't have leveled it to 80.

And nothing happened to the War Retal build as far as nerfing, afaik, people just stopped running it for whatever reason. I actually haven't seen any threads one way or the other in a few weeks.

#15 Limbolein

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 04:35 PM

Back to the initial question: I have had the same impression when I started playing sPvP. Everyone seemed to just be able to finish me off before I could even deal damage. I came from Warhammer playing a slayer where offense is the best defense was kind of true. You could put on so much pressure just by going full offense you didn't need much defense.

Now in GW2 it's much harder to do that. Downed state and the abilities to keep you busy finishing off targets prevent you from putting up constanf pressure. I would recommend being very defensively specced and geared for the start to avoid dying in the first place. You don't feel subpar if you don't lose a fight. And I was surprised how much damage you still can deal even if you go with soldier gear, defensive runes and traits that increase your mobility and survivability instead of damage.

#16 Garethh

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 07:21 PM

View PostLimbolein, on 05 November 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

Back to the initial question: I have had the same impression when I started playing sPvP. Everyone seemed to just be able to finish me off before I could even deal damage. I came from Warhammer playing a slayer where offense is the best defense was kind of true. You could put on so much pressure just by going full offense you didn't need much defense.

Now in GW2 it's much harder to do that. Downed state and the abilities to keep you busy finishing off targets prevent you from putting up constanf pressure. I would recommend being very defensively specced and geared for the start to avoid dying in the first place. You don't feel subpar if you don't lose a fight. And I was surprised how much damage you still can deal even if you go with soldier gear, defensive runes and traits that increase your mobility and survivability instead of damage.
That was a good game, gotta say I loved those 12v12s allot more than these pug 8v8s.
Anyways, I can relate, it was a tough game to transition from, you didn't have to pay so much attention to specific enemy animations and defensive abilities, especially when playing heavy dps spec.
Spike dps warriors still have to dodge roll well to be good, spike dps warriors still have to shield block, heal/cleanse at good times, ration their gap closers well, and most of all know that there are no healers to back you up.
Its really different game.

On point though, I've seen a few extremely good high dps warriors.
Greatsword/axe-shield is a nigh impossible setup to kite if played well.
The constant swiftness, 5 gap closers (eviscerate, shield bash, rush, whirlwind [also evades], bull's charge) , an invuln for 3s (shield stance), a stability on being CC'd (from 2nd tier defense tree).
Short of having the jump on them to get your crip/chill/imobs off (the only way to deal short of invuln)... the setup is an utter pain in the ass to deal with.

Just playing it well, to avoid snares/CC with twitch dodging and whatnot and so keep pressure, is tougher than in Warhammer.
Allot tougher.

Downed state, yeah warriors aren't great at stomping (short of at the tail end of a frenzy or balanced stance) but are utterly fantastic at stopping rezzes.
They deal enough dmg (courtesy, 100-blades and whatnot) to usually down anyone going to help.

Hopefully on the 15th they'll buff defensive skills because honestly I've yet to see a balanced setup warrior (or more defensive) really do anything wonderful (short of hammer stunlocking, which is pretty easy to avoid if your fighting someone who knows what animation is what).

Edited by Garethh, 05 November 2012 - 07:24 PM.





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