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Tournament Guardians: what type of builds are working well?


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#1 Merk6789

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 03:10 AM

Pretty much the title says it all.

Tournament Guardians: what type of builds are working well?

I've been playing around with many builds.  I admit that I'm actually pretty new to mmo's in general and my computer is a tad slow.  So while *I* might not be good at playing a certain build, perhaps in time/better pc/better connection I will.  With this in mind, can we start a list of builds you find that work and even those that dont.

Can we not have any "my build is better"  or "that build sucks" comments.  Lets not troll and lets just speak from our own personal experience and leave the judgement in other threads.  Even feel free to start a new thread discussing a build listed here if you want.

Please: provide some rational behind the build you propose.  if you have tried some that didn't work, feel free to express your thoughts on why it didn't work.

Things I'm looking for are:
What traits/skills provide good synergism or which ones didn't and why.
What team make up works best with your build.
Is there a profession you enjoy teaming with or are you solo or group roaming.
these are just a few i might add more questions later.

Thanks a lot.  I look forward to having a list of builds to look into.

EDIT:
PS:  I'm not looking for builds that utilize exploits/glitches.  Just solid build.  So please no mace 3/1 immune for 6 sec bunker builds please :D  or the like

Edited by Merk6789, 27 October 2012 - 03:11 AM.


#2 Fonsie

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 01:27 PM

For tournaments you have to get rid of "the one build" that rocks everything, because the most viable build depends (mostly) on the setup and playstyle of your group, the enemy setup and playstyle and the map. For the first two variables no one can answer which is the best build, so you will have to figure out on your own, which build helps out your team the most against a specific enemy team.

What we can say is that the most viable build is VERY dependent from the map.

On the one hand you have  Legacy of the Foefire, in which you will certainly have a lot of team fights in the centre, just because it is very hard to neutralize that point once you lost it. Also, the distance to the other two points is very short and support is almost instantly in place. Therefor, I´d say that a Shout Support Guardian is the best for this map. For Forest of Niflhel you can use the same build.

On the other hand there is Battle of Khylo, which plays completely different. The center point is very small and can easily be neutralized. I don´t like 2h Hammer on other maps that much, but on Khylo it is probably THE best weapon for a point defender Guardian in the centre. Also, I like spirit hammer very much on this map, cause the knockbacks are just ridiculous combined with the other CC you already have with 2h Hammer and Shield+Sword/Mace/Scepter. Additionally you may have to evade some trebuchet shots... so what to can you do against that? Just try to find a way to improve your endurance, so you can evade more often e.g. by getting Sigil of Energy.

My opinions.
There is no "best build", but the viability of builds changes from map to map.

Edited by Fonsie, 27 October 2012 - 02:01 PM.


#3 UssjTrunks

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 01:51 AM

Bunker build provides the most value to your team, by far.

#4 Aodan

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 03:17 AM

There are "best" builds.

Guardians depend on how many you have and what role you want them to fit.

Currently with or without the bunker meta guardians excel the best in a tanky/support role.

Most Bunkers run 2 or 3 shouts and are either 30/30/10 or 30/20/20.

If you are running more than 1 guardian you probably want to run a Offensive or Retal Bunker at that point (for the 2nd grd)

#5 Drekor

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 09:33 PM

ret+perma prot+AH bunker... same as usual.

Edited by Drekor, 28 October 2012 - 09:34 PM.


#6 DaPala

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 03:13 PM

View PostDrekor, on 28 October 2012 - 09:33 PM, said:

ret+perma prot+AH bunker... same as usual.

Care to post a build please?

#7 Drekor

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 05:40 PM

View PostDaPala, on 29 October 2012 - 03:13 PM, said:

Care to post a build please?
http://gw2skills.net...WuskZtCZExpgXBA

You need to keep your eyes out for enemy thieves as if they get a combo off on you without your prot up you'll be in trouble. You have VoC, HtL and renewed focus to deal with it so you really shouldn't be caught flat footed unless you just finished as a big team fight.

#8 jeddahwe

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 03:52 PM

View PostDrekor, on 29 October 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

http://gw2skills.net...WuskZtCZExpgXBA

You need to keep your eyes out for enemy thieves as if they get a combo off on you without your prot up you'll be in trouble. You have VoC, HtL and renewed focus to deal with it so you really shouldn't be caught flat footed unless you just finished as a big team fight.

Q:  Selfless Daring + Empowered Might = 10 Trait points, could they be invested in another place for more bang-for-your-buck?

#9 Marktman

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 05:03 PM

Where does the permanent protection come from in that build?

#10 Dairuiner

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 05:40 PM

View PostDrekor, on 29 October 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

http://gw2skills.net...WuskZtCZExpgXBA

You need to keep your eyes out for enemy thieves as if they get a combo off on you without your prot up you'll be in trouble. You have VoC, HtL and renewed focus to deal with it so you really shouldn't be caught flat footed unless you just finished as a big team fight.

What's with the random precision stuff? Honor - X (symbols heal) is WAY better than procing 5s of might with your 12% crit chance.

#11 Drekor

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 06:18 PM

View Postjeddahwe, on 06 November 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

Q:  Selfless Daring + Empowered Might = 10 Trait points, could they be invested in another place for more bang-for-your-buck?
No, EM is very important and SD is also exceptionally good. If you wanted to mvoe points I'd suggest taking out virtue of retribution and absolute resolution from virtues.

View PostMarktman, on 06 November 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

Where does the permanent protection come from in that build?
Hammer...

View PostDairuiner, on 06 November 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

What's with the random precision stuff? Honor - X (symbols heal) is WAY better than procing 5s of might with your 12% crit chance.
Sigil of accuracy along with fury from group gives me around 39% iirc. EM has a dual purpose of not only healing me but also increasing group damage, that is more important than healing only if you are standing in a symbol.

Edited by Drekor, 06 November 2012 - 06:31 PM.


#12 Dairuiner

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 07:47 PM

View PostDrekor, on 06 November 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

Sigil of accuracy along with fury from group gives me around 39% iirc. EM has a dual purpose of not only healing me but also increasing group damage, that is more important than healing only if you are standing in a symbol.

Just seems to me you're going 90% of the way with this build, opting out of a LOT of healing potential in order to use a GS and have something resembling DPS. Not sure I would call what you posted a bunker build, but it's close. You went all the way for altruistic healing but aren't taking full advantage of it. AH is really weak without healing power in your amulet (something like 50hp per application).

For instance, the hammer is your protection source, but your build doesn't prioritize actually standing in that symbol to soak up those protection tics. Each tic you could get passive healing from the symbol AND passive healing each time the protection applies itself (altruistic healing). I'd go mace/shield over GS for the near-constant application of regen (which, again, is procing additional heals with altruistic healing.) And a cleric's amulet. You'd lose the GS dps and gain a TON more survivability (i.e. bunker) while preserving the awesome point control of the hammer PLUS the shield knockback.

I DO think you've posted an excellent 1v1 and teamfight build, just not an ultra-survivable bunker build that's built to last as long as possible against 2-3 opponents until help arrives and/or keeping other bunkers off the point.

Edited by Dairuiner, 06 November 2012 - 08:02 PM.


#13 Drekor

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 08:59 PM

View PostDairuiner, on 06 November 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

Just seems to me you're going 90% of the way with this build, opting out of a LOT of healing potential in order to use a GS and have something resembling DPS. Not sure I would call what you posted a bunker build, but it's close. You went all the way for altruistic healing but aren't taking full advantage of it. AH is really weak without healing power in your amulet (something like 50hp per application).
The GS is there not for it's damage but it's utility. It has retaliation on the symbol in addition ot being a light field which combined with whirling wrath can full clear your conditions on a decent cooldown. It has a leap to stick on to people better in addition to an AoE blind. It has a pull which for all intents and purposes is a knockdown(which is absolutely huge when fighting multiple enemies). You also have a good weapon to switch to when fighting condition heavy builds since they largely ignore protection making it a less than ideal choice and mace+x tends to fail really hard against condition builds(I notice this while playing my necro against bunker guardians as well).

AH scales absolutely horribly with HP (something around 1%), it's not worth investing in. With others sources of healing it may be good but I don't find I need it and healing is far to easy to counter imo. I prefer the extra 5.6k HP from soldiers ammy.

Quote

For instance, the hammer is your protection source, but your build doesn't prioritize actually standing in that symbol to soak up those protection tics. Each tic you could get passive healing from the symbol AND passive healing each time the protection applies itself (altruistic healing). I'd go mace/shield over GS for the near-constant application of regen (which, again, is procing additional heals with altruistic healing.) And a cleric's amulet. You'd lose the GS dps and gain a TON more survivability (i.e. bunker) while preserving the awesome point control of the hammer PLUS the shield knockback.

I DO think you've posted an excellent 1v1 and teamfight build, just not an ultra-survivable bunker build that's built to last as long as possible against 2-3 opponents until help arrives and/or keeping other bunkers off the point.
I don't disagree that writ of the merciful is good and outperforms EM from a healing standpoint if you are alone and standing on a symbol. EM gives better healing in a group(since I don't have a lot of healing power) and provides damage for the group too. I think a 0/0/30/30/10 would work better for the symbol healing though.

I don't recall every claiming it was "ultra-survivable" and I find those builds to be largely dead weight in a tournament team. The difference between an ultra survivable build and mine when fighting a 3v1 is likely less than 5 seconds of time spent alive. However in something like a 1v1 or 2v1, I find sacrificing some of that defense for offense creates more survivability since I can force enemies to take defensive action or even kill them instead of letting them go full out balls to the wall offensive on me.

Edited by Drekor, 06 November 2012 - 09:09 PM.


#14 Sizmo

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:02 PM

I'd like to look into it again, but i believe i tested Altruistic healing a while ago and the healing did 70hp w/o an amulet and 77hp with Clerics amulet on.

I am not sure that AH benefits that much from +healing.

#15 Sizmo

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:09 PM

View PostDrekor, on 06 November 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

The difference between an ultra survivable build and mine when fighting a 3v1 is likely less than 5 seconds of time spent alive. However in something like a 1v1 or 2v1, I find sacrificing some of that defense for offense creates more survivability since I can force enemies to take defensive action or even kill them instead of letting them go full out balls to the wall offensive on me.

This is a good point.
One of the tricky things for our team is defining what the guardian is best at and what they can leave behind.  Personally i've had a hard time letting go of +healing, but really they aren't the best healer type class if that's what i'm after.  This game is designed for killers so i'm not sure there is any mechanism to straight up out heal incoming dps.  Moments of this are possible via boons and/or Invulnerabilities, but boons can be stripped and invulns are on LONG cooldowns.

My personal opinion is that Gaurdians excel at +stability and +protection and are decent at condition removal.  Its possible to have more-offensive type guardian that can still supply those group benefits, while being more than just a paper weight.

#16 Drekor

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:12 PM

View PostSizmo, on 06 November 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

This is a good point.
One of the tricky things for our team is defining what the guardian is best at and what they can leave behind.  Personally i've had a hard time letting go of +healing, but really they aren't the best healer type class if that's what i'm after.  This game is designed for killers so i'm not sure there is any mechanism to straight up out heal incoming dps.  Moments of this are possible via boons and/or Invulnerabilities, but boons can be stripped and invulns are on LONG cooldowns.

My personal opinion is that Gaurdians excel at +stability and +protection and are decent at condition removal.  Its possible to have more-offensive type guardian that can still supply those group benefits, while being more than just a paper weight.
Mesmer mantra spammers can often outheal things but... that's about all they do and a single poison will run them into the ground ;)

#17 Dairuiner

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:03 PM

View PostDrekor, on 06 November 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

The GS is there not for it's damage but it's utility. It has retaliation on the symbol in addition ot being a light field which combined with whirling wrath can full clear your conditions on a decent cooldown.


Man, if only this were true. Sounds like a big part of your build strategy, unfortunately it's not the case. The cleansing bolts you produce from a light field + whirl finisher only cure conditions off your allies that the bolts hit, it doesn't clear any conditions off yourself.  You can test this easily against the thief npc in mists, just be sure to disable your passive condi cleanses first. This kinda moots your argument of the GS being better against conditions than mace/shield.  Both have a knockdown, and one has a blind while the other has a block. Otherwise the mace is way more defensive against condi's with its great regen field.

You're right about AH's poor scaling with healing power, I messed up in my testing on that.

Finally, I'm still hung up on your choice for the might on crits... since you're running 2 2-handers, even taking the 20% reduction in 2 hander recharge seems like a much stronger pick?

Edited by Dairuiner, 06 November 2012 - 11:04 PM.


#18 jeddahwe

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 06:35 AM

Looks like a powerful Tournament build thanks.

On a side note what would you use for WvW?  Same build just change utilities (try to get some swiftness in there) and maybe add a sword for more mobility and a Chill SIgil on weapon?

Edited by jeddahwe, 07 November 2012 - 06:36 AM.


#19 Drekor

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 06:59 PM

View PostDairuiner, on 06 November 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

Man, if only this were true. Sounds like a big part of your build strategy, unfortunately it's not the case. The cleansing bolts you produce from a light field + whirl finisher only cure conditions off your allies that the bolts hit, it doesn't clear any conditions off yourself.  You can test this easily against the thief npc in mists, just be sure to disable your passive condi cleanses first. This kinda moots your argument of the GS being better against conditions than mace/shield.  Both have a knockdown, and one has a blind while the other has a block. Otherwise the mace is way more defensive against condi's with its great regen field.

You're right about AH's poor scaling with healing power, I messed up in my testing on that.

Finally, I'm still hung up on your choice for the might on crits... since you're running 2 2-handers, even taking the 20% reduction in 2 hander recharge seems like a much stronger pick?
Hmmm, you could be correct in that, I have a lot of removal 2 per 10 and removal on shouts with soldier runes so it may just have been things lining up nicely when I did it. I will have to pay closer attention. As for the knockback I certainly prefer being able to CC someone from 600 units away as well as have the ability to leap around whether strictly for mobility or as a gap closer, it's far to easy to kite a mace/shield user and if they have any range they'll tear you apart bunker or not.

I sometimes use the 20% reduction, it depends on a lot on circumstances, if I'm going to be solo most of the time I would likely switch out to that but I usually find I'm with others. I tend to prefer having a mesmer to solo point defense since they are better 1v1 and can still move around the map thanks to portal.

View Postjeddahwe, on 07 November 2012 - 06:35 AM, said:

Looks like a powerful Tournament build thanks.

On a side note what would you use for WvW?  Same build just change utilities (try to get some swiftness in there) and maybe add a sword for more mobility and a Chill SIgil on weapon?
Not really, I do change utilities to give wall of reflection as well as retreat for run speed and SY! for decent duration protection and fury for when I charge into people but typically it's use the staff primarily and only charge with greatsword when enemies are breaking or when I have full cooldowns. It's much more offense oriented.

http://gw2skills.net...Nuak1sgYAxpgXBA

#20 GSSB Lunaspike

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:36 AM

View Postjeddahwe, on 07 November 2012 - 06:35 AM, said:

Looks like a powerful Tournament build thanks.

On a side note what would you use for WvW?  Same build just change utilities (try to get some swiftness in there) and maybe add a sword for more mobility and a Chill SIgil on weapon?

wvw and spvp are two different beasts entirely. In wvw you generally don't get to know where you will fight ahead of time, and the numbers change so dramatically. You might be fighting at a sentry point with a 10v10 now, and in a few minutes you might be at a keep with 30+ on each side, then you might be at a camp with a 1v2 etc.

Just my experience but most tpvp builds don't work in wvw.

I've had this same discussion with someone on the official forums when people posts rants about how "spvp/tpvp" isn't a real measure of a persons pvp ability. We can all agree that spvp is controlled environments that you will know ahead of time, and that the only unknown is your opponents. So it requires less quick thinking, but that doesn't mean it requires less skill it just requires different skills.

So if you build a spvp build, cool. Just don't assume that one will work well for you in wvw, usually they won't.




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