50 replies to this topic

[Legitsu]

Hello~
I've created a level 80 thief and have equipped myself with a range of items specific to maximise critical damage. I've been mainly trying to backstab enemies through extensive use of stealth and based my traits by 30, 30, 10, 0, 0 according to minions thief build.

I have 58% critical chance without the extra precision through stacks.
And also have 88 critical damage.

 2012-10-27_00002.jpg   171.29K   222 downloads

I deal lots of damage through backstabs and then heartseeker along with another backstab after the revealed condition is removed; however, I recently tried out the Sword and Pistol combination and realised that I do more damage with it and finish enemies slightly quicker (against environment). When using S/P I usually run in and spam pistol whip as it stuns them as well.

So between D/D and S/P the difference is that:
* S/P deals more damage overall and finishes off quicker.
* D/D still retains more initiative than S/P, allowing me to kill two enemies without wait.

I haven't had much chance to use S/P in WvW yet, but it seems that S/P is better for PvE? Frankly, I'm seeing S/P being a better use in PvP as well but would still love to use D/D. I just feel that D/D is more of the 'typical' thief weapon

What do you think?
Should I approach this with a different style?


Thanks for reading and commenting!
Also credit to Minion again:
http://www.guildwars...le-thief-build/

[Minion]

The benefit of D/D in WvW is utility. Daze and blind is nice, but you're also fixed to the floor when you're pistol whipping; the 1/4s daze won't keep them still long enough. Dancing Dagger is the best (excluding chill, since thieves have no sauce of chill) snare available to you whilst the damage from Cloak and Dagger is better than pistol whip (higher dps) Cloaking can also disorientate the opponent.

In short, S/P= little useful utility and lacks mobility.

D/D= lots of cripple and cloak is a pretty cool guy. Oh, and backstab.

I'm not sure how you came up with sword/pistol killing faster. It may look like pistol whip is dealing a lot of damage, but that end number is a culmination of the last 4 seconds of standing still and slashing at air. This makes it much slower, DPS-wise.

[Tenofas]

Legitsu, on 27 October 2012 - 05:27 AM, said:

So between D/D and S/P the difference is that:
* S/P deals more damage overall and finishes off quicker.
* D/D still retains more initiative than S/P, allowing me to kill two enemies without wait.

If you use D/D right (C&D->Steal->Backstab) you will almost insta-kill a lvl80 mob.  With Pistol Whip you will probably need two hits and that takes a few seconds, while you have to stay almost still.
Are you sure you are using Backstab in the right way?

[Legitsu]

Minion, on 29 October 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

The benefit of D/D in WvW is utility. Daze and blind is nice, but you're also fixed to the floor when you're pistol whipping; the 1/4s daze won't keep them still long enough. Dancing Dagger is the best (excluding chill, since thieves have no sauce of chill) snare available to you whilst the damage from Cloak and Dagger is better than pistol whip (higher dps) Cloaking can also disorientate the opponent.

In short, S/P= little useful utility and lacks mobility.

D/D= lots of cripple and cloak is a pretty cool guy. Oh, and backstab.

I'm not sure how you came up with sword/pistol killing faster. It may look like pistol whip is dealing a lot of damage, but that end number is a culmination of the last 4 seconds of standing still and slashing at air. This makes it much slower, DPS-wise.

My backstabs do about 6k damage to someone.
Whereas the Pistolwhip does about 12k damage to someone with a 1/4 of stun.
The total damage taken seems to be more on the S/P?

And thank you for the reply!
Comment is much appreciated

As a side note, the crit build with dagger storm in a mob is fantastic!!!

Tenofas, on 29 October 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

If you use D/D right (C&D->Steal->Backstab) you will almost insta-kill a lvl80 mob.  With Pistol Whip you will probably need two hits and that takes a few seconds, while you have to stay almost still.
Are you sure you are using Backstab in the right way?

Can you link me to a video showing me the 'right' way?
I do not know if I am doing it efficiently and would benefit from knowing which way is the most efficient one.

Edited by Legitsu, 30 October 2012 - 01:03 AM.

[Tenofas]

Uh, I don't have a video... will try to see if I can find one.
Anyway, You seem to have low values in Power and Crit Damage.  I have more than 100 in Crit damage.  But that should not make any big difference.
I would rather put those 10 points in Trickery, to get "Thrill of Crime" trait which gives you a good bonus when you Steal.
You should also use Devourer Venom before jumping on your target, so it will be immobilized during your attack: it's fundamental that you hit the mob at its back (backstab will double its damage)!
Now, all you have to do is timing your C&D and Steal right, probably you want to disable autoattak to be sure to land Backstab in the right moment.
While C&D cast bar starts, press Steal, you will be teleported to the mob, Steal will land (with Mug it will deal around 4k damage) immobilize (Devourer Venom) the mob, immediatly followed by C&D (another 4-5k damage) then you stealth.  In stealth, and standing at the mob's back, use Backstab (around 9-10k damage).  All this happens in around 1.5 seconds.
Backstab alone may deal less damage than Pistol Whip, but you have to consider that you need to add C&D and Steal damage to the whole attack.

Now, some small differences between my build and Minion's one.
I use a 25/30/0/0/15, because I want more initiative.  This will help me to have the First Strike (10% damage) bonus and Thrill of Crime.

[Emma Wolfsbane]

I read a really good post on a S/P build and I thought I would try it. I've been using D/D since I was a wee-little thief and I had a lot of fun with backstab. Here are my observations.

D/D does much more damage. I had around 80% crit chance and ridiculous crit damage. The first initial strike on a monster did around 22k damage with superior sigil of air, mug, CnD and backstab. Every five seconds I'd do about 16k more damage. Inbetween the five seconds my auto attack was hitting very very hard and inflicting weakness and poison. When the monster was at 25% (I'm mainly referring to silver/bosses because non-veteran just die instantly) heartseeker spam would do insane damage extremely fast. In Wvw I much preferred dagger over sword. Sword is more sustained damage and running from a S/P thief isn't too difficult. When a D/D thief jumps someone they usually die before they can react, even if they can react heartseeker is like a free teleport.

S/P has much more survivability. When fighting large groups of monsters you can almost infinitely keep blind up by running a signet build. S/P also has a 5 initiative condition removal. Pistol whip did look impressive because it stacked all the swings into one attack there are a few things that made it not so impressive. 1. If the monster moves you lose a lot of swings, this happens a lot on bosses and champions. 2. You have to stand in one spot for a few seconds, this doesn't work on a lot of monsters. I think you get a evade buff while using it but any ground AoE will still be there when it wears off and conditions still hurt you. Also you have a greater chance of gaining the monsters attention. 3. Its a slow attack. It takes like 1.5-2 seconds to finish the attack. In that time you could have finished your backstab combo and a full rotation of auto attacks. I do like swords auto attack because its AoE but if I have to claim monsters I much prefer death blossom. In pvp the biggest problem with S/P is inability to chase people. Most people run when they see a thief in WvW thinking they are going to get bursted down. The stun is very short on the sword so unless you combo it with a immobilize venom then all the strikes arent going to hit.
Also I like to run signets and assassin's signet offers more for dagger than s/p. 15% of mug/CnD/backstab is much higher than 15% pistol whip.
Just my two cents.

[Legitsu]

Tenofas, on 30 October 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

Uh, I don't have a video... will try to see if I can find one.
Anyway, You seem to have low values in Power and Crit Damage.  I have more than 100 in Crit damage.  But that should not make any big difference.
I would rather put those 10 points in Trickery, to get "Thrill of Crime" trait which gives you a good bonus when you Steal.
You should also use Devourer Venom before jumping on your target, so it will be immobilized during your attack: it's fundamental that you hit the mob at its back (backstab will double its damage)!
Now, all you have to do is timing your C&D and Steal right, probably you want to disable autoattak to be sure to land Backstab in the right moment.
While C&D cast bar starts, press Steal, you will be teleported to the mob, Steal will land (with Mug it will deal around 4k damage) immobilize (Devourer Venom) the mob, immediatly followed by C&D (another 4-5k damage) then you stealth.  In stealth, and standing at the mob's back, use Backstab (around 9-10k damage).  All this happens in around 1.5 seconds.
Backstab alone may deal less damage than Pistol Whip, but you have to consider that you need to add C&D and Steal damage to the whole attack.

Now, some small differences between my build and Minion's one.
I use a 25/30/0/0/15, because I want more initiative.  This will help me to have the First Strike (10% damage) bonus and Thrill of Crime.

Thanks for the comment.
I want to ask what you mean by CnD and then steal?
To CnD, don't you have to hit the person and then enter stealth?
Also, don't you have issues with HP? I've been dying a fair bit recently with only 10,800 HP?
It's probably because I am not a good thief yet but still, do you die much and how much HP do you have?

I've currently customised my traits right now to cater for the HP and am not dealing as much damage as I used to.
This is it:
0, 30, 0, 30, 10.

This is my current stats with my gear on.
 2012-10-30_00001.jpg   46.22K   140 downloads

SeishinKizuna2, on 30 October 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

I read a really good post on a S/P build and I thought I would try it. I've been using D/D since I was a wee-little thief and I had a lot of fun with backstab. Here are my observations.

D/D does much more damage. I had around 80% crit chance and ridiculous crit damage. The first initial strike on a monster did around 22k damage with superior sigil of air, mug, CnD and backstab. Every five seconds I'd do about 16k more damage. Inbetween the five seconds my auto attack was hitting very very hard and inflicting weakness and poison. When the monster was at 25% (I'm mainly referring to silver/bosses because non-veteran just die instantly) heartseeker spam would do insane damage extremely fast. In Wvw I much preferred dagger over sword. Sword is more sustained damage and running from a S/P thief isn't too difficult. When a D/D thief jumps someone they usually die before they can react, even if they can react heartseeker is like a free teleport.

S/P has much more survivability. When fighting large groups of monsters you can almost infinitely keep blind up by running a signet build. S/P also has a 5 initiative condition removal. Pistol whip did look impressive because it stacked all the swings into one attack there are a few things that made it not so impressive. 1. If the monster moves you lose a lot of swings, this happens a lot on bosses and champions. 2. You have to stand in one spot for a few seconds, this doesn't work on a lot of monsters. I think you get a evade buff while using it but any ground AoE will still be there when it wears off and conditions still hurt you. Also you have a greater chance of gaining the monsters attention. 3. Its a slow attack. It takes like 1.5-2 seconds to finish the attack. In that time you could have finished your backstab combo and a full rotation of auto attacks. I do like swords auto attack because its AoE but if I have to claim monsters I much prefer death blossom. In pvp the biggest problem with S/P is inability to chase people. Most people run when they see a thief in WvW thinking they are going to get bursted down. The stun is very short on the sword so unless you combo it with a immobilize venom then all the strikes arent going to hit.
Also I like to run signets and assassin's signet offers more for dagger than s/p. 15% of mug/CnD/backstab is much higher than 15% pistol whip.
Just my two cents.

Wow! 80% Crit damage? How did you get so much? I can get that with my precision stacks up to 25.... well it becomes around 70%??

[Tenofas]

Legitsu, on 30 October 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

Thanks for the comment.
I want to ask what you mean by CnD and then steal?
To CnD, don't you have to hit the person and then enter stealth?
Also, don't you have issues with HP? I've been dying a fair bit recently with only 10,800 HP?
It's probably because I am not a good thief yet but still, do you die much and how much HP do you have?

I've currently customised my traits right now to cater for the HP and am not dealing as much damage as I used to.
This is it:
0, 30, 0, 30, 10.

This is my current stats with my gear on.
2012-10-30_00001.jpg

C&D has a casting time of around half a second.  You will see the casting bar.  Once the casting is complete, C&D hits and let you stealth.  Now, if you press "5" (C&D) followed immediatly by "F1" (Steal) , using the standard keys, you will jump to your target before C&D casting is over.  So you will first land your Steal damage, then C&D damage and then you will stealth.

I have 11.400 health for PvE. 59% crit chance (but you still have to add those from some traits since they are not calculated in the H panel), around 104 Crit damage and 3.298 attack.  
Obviously, a Backstab build will not be the best way to play if you do solo-PvE, as you would have to wait till Steal is out of cooldown before being able to deal around 20k damage again.
While farming Cursed Shore I play with Sword/pistol, as it gives me AoE damage and a little more control over mobs.  Also, mobs usually do not move away from you once they attack you, and this makes S/P the best option. On the other hand S/P is not good for PvP (sPvP or WvW) as it's easy to evade once you know the animation.  So I would use D/D in PvP or maybe even in Dungeons, depends on the fight.

[Tenofas]

Legitsu, on 30 October 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

Wow! 80% Crit damage? How did you get so much? I can get that with my precision stacks up to 25.... well it becomes around 70%??

Not Crit Damage, he said Crit chance.  It's possible if you go full Berserker with the right sigils and upgrades.
Check this link: http://www.gw2db.com...ngeon-dps-thief

Edited by Tenofas, 30 October 2012 - 01:54 PM.

[Legitsu]

Tenofas, on 30 October 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

Not Crit Damage, he said Crit chance.  It's possible if you go full Berserker with the right sigils and upgrades.
Check this link: http://www.gw2db.com...ngeon-dps-thief

Sorry a typo xP

And I'll give a go with the CnD and Steal now then
Thanks again!

And the link you gave me, I've been looking at it and he has extremely high crits, but does he's really fragile.
Is that build for PvE?

[Tenofas]

Legitsu, on 30 October 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

And the link you gave me, I've been looking at it and he has extremely high crits, but does he's really fragile.
Is that build for PvE?

Glass cannon builds like that one can work ONLY in PvE, as you need high Vitality and/or Toughness for PvP.

Edited by Tenofas, 30 October 2012 - 03:12 PM.

[Dairuiner]

For WvW, S/P, no question. Here's why:

1) In anything but a straight-up 1v1 (arguably), mobility is key. If you get locked down, you die. If you can lock them down, they die. Infiltrator's strike trumps anything d/d has for mobility both for yourself, and against the enemy by landing the immobilize. If you have friends you can spam it 3 times for repeated immobilizes while your friends blow him up before he reaches the gate of his keep. This single ability allows you to zip straight into a group of enemies, immobilize a squishy, pistol whip him to death while evading his friends, dish out brutal AOE with the sword, and zip back out of harms way if things turn sour. Inf strike is beast in WvW, both offensively and defensively.

2) Pistol whip is just as defensive as it is offensive. It's a stun, damage and evade wrapped up in a 5 ini package. Used properly, it's a life saver and a life sucker. But don't overuse it. I think a lot of thieves do, but it isn't the bread and butter of S/P. Inf strike is.

3) Ranged daze to interrupt the heal.  Put that heal on a 5s cooldown. Inf strike or steal in for the kill.

4) Black powder for the assured stomp. It's better than stealth most of the time, for anyone who wants to argue it against c/d. It creates certain death on the first stomp try against 5 of the 8 classes. C/D doesn't do that. If his buddies are around, B/P then stealth with a heal, utility, or with cluster bomb. You're now the ultimate stomper. Except for that pesky ele in mist form.

5) PvE. Tank and destroy 3 veterans at once using black powder and your aoe autoattack, finish the fight quickly with 100% health.

6) Read #1 again... you can gear and trait for full glass and still have annoyingly amazing geurilla survivability in skirmishes using the OP infiltrator's strike.

All this versus the bigger burst single target damage of D/D with the only survivability ability being stealth, and only control effect being dancing daggers. No thanks.

Tenofas, on 30 October 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

Glass cannon builds like that one can work ONLY in PvE, as you need high Vitality and/or Toughness for PvP.

Not true. Use s/p and abuse infiltrator's strike. Always leave yourself the out and there's no need for toughness OR vitality.

Edited by Dairuiner, 30 October 2012 - 08:19 PM.

[tony32p]

Legitsu, on 30 October 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

Sorry a typo xP

And I'll give a go with the CnD and Steal now then
Thanks again!

And the link you gave me, I've been looking at it and he has extremely high crits, but does he's really fragile.
Is that build for PvE?

i use this build.. its great in dungeons but you gotta play smart and not put yourself in diffacult situations. i have to fall back to range quite a bit.. but any chance you can,hop in there and spam pistol whip to melt mobs..    also  can provide great support for the team because pw interrupts a lot of the big attacks that knock your team down, also you can stun/blind lock an enemy causing trouble if you have to while your team downs the others.

[Emma Wolfsbane]

Legitsu, on 30 October 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

Thanks for the comment.
I want to ask what you mean by CnD and then steal?
To CnD, don't you have to hit the person and then enter stealth?
Also, don't you have issues with HP? I've been dying a fair bit recently with only 10,800 HP?
It's probably because I am not a good thief yet but still, do you die much and how much HP do you have?

I've currently customised my traits right now to cater for the HP and am not dealing as much damage as I used to.
This is it:
0, 30, 0, 30, 10.

This is my current stats with my gear on.
2012-10-30_00001.jpg




Wow! 80% Crit damage? How did you get so much? I can get that with my precision stacks up to 25.... well it becomes around 70%??

Berserkers, Rubies and Food as well as a 5% crit chance on off hand and Signet of Agility. I think I had it at 94% at one point, crit chance not Crit damage. I can't remember what my crit damage is. People never use food, I'm not sure why. Food and potions make dungeons infinitely easier.

I use it for end game Pvp. I either have to build tanky and condition damage or glass cannon. Going half valkyries and half berserkers doesn't really seem to increase my survivability enough to make it worth getting the valkyrie pieces. I never go downed and say "I wish I had 3,000 more HP" If you want to play glass cannon you just have to learn to avoid the red circles. High risk high reward playstyle. Sure a dead thief is no use to a dungeon party, but that's what seperates the good thieves from the bandwagon thieves.

Edited by SeishinKizuna2, 30 October 2012 - 11:57 PM.

[Legitsu]

tony32p, on 30 October 2012 - 09:18 PM, said:

i use this build.. its great in dungeons but you gotta play smart and not put yourself in diffacult situations. i have to fall back to range quite a bit.. but any chance you can,hop in there and spam pistol whip to melt mobs..    also  can provide great support for the team because pw interrupts a lot of the big attacks that knock your team down, also you can stun/blind lock an enemy causing trouble if you have to while your team downs the others.

I was thinking the same in this area. I love it against the veteran frost worm in WvW as it stops him from running away.

SeishinKizuna2, on 30 October 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

Berserkers, Rubies and Food as well as a 5% crit chance on off hand and Signet of Agility. I think I had it at 94% at one point, crit chance not Crit damage. I can't remember what my crit damage is. People never use food, I'm not sure why. Food and potions make dungeons infinitely easier.

I use it for end game Pvp. I either have to build tanky and condition damage or glass cannon. Going half valkyries and half berserkers doesn't really seem to increase my survivability enough to make it worth getting the valkyrie pieces. I never go downed and say "I wish I had 3,000 more HP" If you want to play glass cannon you just have to learn to avoid the red circles. High risk high reward playstyle. Sure a dead thief is no use to a dungeon party, but that's what seperates the good thieves from the bandwagon thieves.

Last night was shameful.
With my glass canon build of 10.8k life, I got wiped off the deck in less than 1 second by an elementalist.
He got me by surprise with lightning attacks and immediately wiped me out.
That's why I have changed my build to the 0,30,0,30,10

Tenofas, on 30 October 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

C&D has a casting time of around half a second.  You will see the casting bar.  Once the casting is complete, C&D hits and let you stealth.  Now, if you press "5" (C&D) followed immediatly by "F1" (Steal) , using the standard keys, you will jump to your target before C&D casting is over.  So you will first land your Steal damage, then C&D damage and then you will stealth.

I have 11.400 health for PvE. 59% crit chance (but you still have to add those from some traits since they are not calculated in the H panel), around 104 Crit damage and 3.298 attack.  
Obviously, a Backstab build will not be the best way to play if you do solo-PvE, as you would have to wait till Steal is out of cooldown before being able to deal around 20k damage again.
While farming Cursed Shore I play with Sword/pistol, as it gives me AoE damage and a little more control over mobs.  Also, mobs usually do not move away from you once they attack you, and this makes S/P the best option. On the other hand S/P is not good for PvP (sPvP or WvW) as it's easy to evade once you know the animation.  So I would use D/D in PvP or maybe even in Dungeons, depends on the fight.

Can you tell me how you deal 20k dmg? I would love that kind of damage!
(Do you mean aggregate or just the backstab?)

[Emma Wolfsbane]

20k Damage :

Start casting Cloak and Dagger, in the middle of the cast use Steal with Mug (4-6k Damage) then your cloak and dagger lands (4-6k Damage) then you backstab (10-14k damage). That's 20k+ damage in basically the time it takes to do one attack.

[Legitsu]

SeishinKizuna2, on 31 October 2012 - 02:46 AM, said:

20k Damage :

Start casting Cloak and Dagger, in the middle of the cast use Steal with Mug (4-6k Damage) then your cloak and dagger lands (4-6k Damage) then you backstab (10-14k damage). That's 20k+ damage in basically the time it takes to do one attack.

Hmm... 10-14K dmg?
Wow.... my backstabs are 6k?
D:

[Emma Wolfsbane]

I'm afraid you need much higher crit damage.

[Legitsu]

SeishinKizuna2, on 31 October 2012 - 04:39 AM, said:

I'm afraid you need much higher crit damage.

Can you go to Frostgorge and do a backstab on the Dolyak and give me your damage report?
Thanks

I did:
1k dmg with CnD
4.8k with backstab on the dolyak

[Emma Wolfsbane]

Legitsu, on 31 October 2012 - 06:04 AM, said:

Can you go to Frostgorge and do a backstab on the Dolyak and give me your damage report?
Thanks

I did:
1k dmg with CnD
4.8k with backstab on the dolyak

3.1k with CnD and 8.2k with backstab. Dolyak toughness is no joke

[Legitsu]

SeishinKizuna2, on 31 October 2012 - 06:25 AM, said:

3.1k with CnD and 8.2k with backstab. Dolyak toughness is no joke

Nice bro!
Can you give me your traits list and equipments with runes if its not too much!
xD

[Emma Wolfsbane]

Legitsu, on 31 October 2012 - 07:29 AM, said:

Nice bro!
Can you give me your traits list and equipments with runes if its not too much!
xD

30/30/0/0/10
Berserkers everything with rubies, Curry butternut squash soup.
III, VI, IX
II, III, XI
V
For dungeons I run Shadow Refuge, Signet of Agility, Signet of Shadows. If its a easy dungeon I switch out shadow refuge for another signet. Lots of might. Pop I might switch out Side strike for Signet Use to heartseeker spam when bosses are low.
For WvW I run Signet of Shadows, Shadow Refuge, Infiltrator's Signet. I don't like Assassin's Signet.
For farming I use Caltrops, Shadow Refuge and Signet of Shadows.

[Legitsu]

SeishinKizuna2, on 31 October 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

30/30/0/0/10
Berserkers everything with rubies, Curry butternut squash soup.
III, VI, IX
II, III, XI
V
For dungeons I run Shadow Refuge, Signet of Agility, Signet of Shadows. If its a easy dungeon I switch out shadow refuge for another signet. Lots of might. Pop I might switch out Side strike for Signet Use to heartseeker spam when bosses are low.
For WvW I run Signet of Shadows, Shadow Refuge, Infiltrator's Signet. I don't like Assassin's Signet.
For farming I use Caltrops, Shadow Refuge and Signet of Shadows.

SeishinKizuna2, on 31 October 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

30/30/0/0/10
Berserkers everything with rubies, Curry butternut squash soup.
III, VI, IX
II, III, XI
V
For dungeons I run Shadow Refuge, Signet of Agility, Signet of Shadows. If its a easy dungeon I switch out shadow refuge for another signet. Lots of might. Pop I might switch out Side strike for Signet Use to heartseeker spam when bosses are low.
For WvW I run Signet of Shadows, Shadow Refuge, Infiltrator's Signet. I don't like Assassin's Signet.
For farming I use Caltrops, Shadow Refuge and Signet of Shadows.

Thanks

[Dairuiner]

Legitsu, on 31 October 2012 - 02:01 AM, said:

Last night was shameful.
With my glass canon build of 10.8k life, I got wiped off the deck in less than 1 second by an elementalist.
He got me by surprise with lightning attacks and immediately wiped me out.
That's why I have changed my build to the 0,30,0,30,10

Meh, if he killed you that quick it means he's just as/more squishy as you. You'd do the same to him if you were the one who got the drop, I wouldn't change your whole build because of it.  Being glass cannon means your SB is absolutely brutal in sieges and larger skirmishes, 2-shotting non-80s with clusterbomb from 1200m away. I wouldn't give that up for a couple extra dodges and a few thousand hp.

Edited by Dairuiner, 31 October 2012 - 02:41 PM.

[Elan]

Personally find S/P fantastic in WvW.  Maybe not better then D/D, but certainly not worse.  Just don't get into the habit of spamming PW.  

You can easily lock someone down, making it almost impossible for them to escape with S/P, too, which does run counter to an above statement or two.  Devourer venom, infiltrator strike, Steal, and Skill 1's cripple on the chain means you can hold someone in place very, very well.  Given you really should be doing most of your damage via skill 1 anyways, your targets will be crippled and weakened for most of the fight, if not blind, stunned, or rooted.

Dagger Dagger also tends to rely on quick kills.  The longer the fight, the worse your odds.  Sword Pistol can handle a longer fight and you never really need to commit all or nothing, as your damage is steady and not burst.

S/P is an absolute snooze fest in PvE, however.  Makes a mockery of many things in the world and in dungeons.  Your ability to sustain a prolonged fight in a dungeon, for example, is better with S/P then D/D as you can simply blind tank all day long if you need to, while you need to deal with the stealth lock cooldown or burn init on DB and dodge a lot more actively to avoid damage with the daggers.  Daggers are certainly more entertaining from a mobility standpoint in PvE anyways.

Edited by Elan, 01 November 2012 - 01:02 AM.

[TGIFrisbie]

Legitsu, on 27 October 2012 - 05:27 AM, said:

I've created a level 80 thief

Seeing statements like this more often recently and it begs the question...did you suddenly just obtain a level 80 thief?

Saw a Thief yesterday named Ffwdr Thief that wasn't botting and was just goofing off, made me think an obvious purchase and testing out his new rig....

[rlsquared2]

Minion, on 29 October 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

The benefit of D/D in WvW is utility. Daze and blind is nice, but you're also fixed to the floor when you're pistol whipping; the 1/4s daze won't keep them still long enough. Dancing Dagger is the best (excluding chill, since thieves have no sauce of chill) snare available to you whilst the damage from Cloak and Dagger is better than pistol whip (higher dps) Cloaking can also disorientate the opponent.

In short, S/P= little useful utility and lacks mobility.

D/D= lots of cripple and cloak is a pretty cool guy. Oh, and backstab.

I'm not sure how you came up with sword/pistol killing faster. It may look like pistol whip is dealing a lot of damage, but that end number is a culmination of the last 4 seconds of standing still and slashing at air. This makes it much slower, DPS-wise.

S/P lacks mobility ? you joking, infiltrators strike is WvWvW  is great. Blind switch to SB and blast for AoE stealth. D/D is for inexperience thiefs who havent left their comfort zone. Also, been playing S/P after the 15% nerf.  Spam HS and LB if you want for that  "mobility"

[Minion]

rlsquared2, on 01 November 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

S/P lacks mobility ? you joking, infiltrators strike is WvWvW  is great. Blind switch to SB and blast for AoE stealth. D/D is for inexperience thiefs who havent left their comfort zone. Also, been playing S/P after the 15% nerf.  Spam HS and LB if you want for that  "mobility"

By "LB", I can only presume you mean "DB" with some sort of dyslexia.  You wouldn't use DB for mobility, but Heartseeker is adequate for jumping around the map when there's nothing to jump to with Steal. The damage from Infiltrator's Strike is weak and you can only bounce from two points at a time. Whereas with Heartseeker you can spring away if you're in trouble. You can also *cripple* and kite, which you cannot do with S/P. You can try dazing and running with the pistol off-hand but that's not going to stick for long.

Also, stop using words like "comfort zone". I don't hold the same opinion as you, that's all. It lowers the validity of your argument.

[rlsquared2]

Minion, on 01 November 2012 - 11:58 PM, said:

By "LB", I can only presume you mean "DB" with some sort of dyslexia.  You wouldn't use DB for mobility, but Heartseeker is adequate for jumping around the map when there's nothing to jump to with Steal. The damage from Infiltrator's Strike is weak and you can only bounce from two points at a time. Whereas with Heartseeker you can spring away if you're in trouble. You can also *cripple* and kite, which you cannot do with S/P. You can try dazing and running with the pistol off-hand but that's not going to stick for long.

Also, stop using words like "comfort zone". I don't hold the same opinion as you, that's all. It lowers the validity of your argument.

If you are using HS to jump around SB is better. Inf strike is not for dmg its to get to a point and teleport back (can break stun) hence my point of mobility.  D/D why you trying to kite? That cripple is mainly for the opponent not to run away.  Ill agree that s/p does not have a cripple but you have 2 gap closers. Inf strike and Steal. In combat has d/d  you cant break out of CC has easily has S/x can. Hence why I believe is better than D/D. I ran D/D for a long time and I find it easier skill set up to us. HS spam  just lacks finese and hence why I changed to different weapon set up. S/P is not heavy initiative dependent making me able to use my skills at the right time. It does all comes to personal preference but saying that D/D has more mobility just because anyone can spam 2 does not mean its better. It has its benefits but Inf strike has its benefits too which I believe you are completely ignoring. You can if you target fast enough blink via a line of enemies chasing you breaking stun.

[Minion]

You're not supposed to be spamming Heartseeker... If anything, Cloak and Dagger+Backstab+Steal and THEN Heartseeker to finish them off. Afaik, you cannot pewpew so fast with your sword. The 0s recharge stun breaker of the sword is slightly appealing, but not worth losing out on your damage when you can use other dodging methods with the daggers.