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D/D or S/P for PvE and WvW?

thief assasin dagger sword pistol player versus environment world

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#31 silentdecay01

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 02:48 AM

s/p is just bad for wvw..... d/d/pvp best Dmg/Utility you can bring to your group, And please no " omg u no short bowz depr derp derp"

#32 Elan

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:40 AM

Person A has high KDR with dagger dagger.  Person B has high KDR with sword pistol.  Both claim the other is playing at a disadvantage.


Fact is, both work.  Well.  They bring different tools and a different combat approach to the table.  I've completely destroyed Dagger/Dagger thieves with Sword/Pistol, and I've been completely destroyed by Dagger/Dagger thieves.  As a Sword/Pistol thief about the only thing I have difficulty with most of the time are Mesmers and, guess what, an alert mesmer is going to be difficult for a d/d thief, too - and maybe worse since if they jump the wrong target they're even lower on options then the S/P. Then again, if they choose the right one or get the jump on the Mesmer, they win without any fuss.  

You're talking apples and oranges.  They're both fruit.  How they taste and how you peel 'em are different.  D/D is spike, S/P is sustain and control.  I don't understand the internal fanboyism in our thief brethren as we should be adopting BOTH as the situation depends on it.  They are TOOLS.  Use the right tool for the right job, or else use the tool you're most comfortable with, and be content that someone else can use another tool just as well.

If you want to direct any hate to a build, aim it at Pistol Pistol and the 'mash unload all day' approach.
/sarcasm

Edited by Elan, 02 November 2012 - 11:43 AM.


#33 Legitsu

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 10:17 PM

View PostMinion, on 01 November 2012 - 11:58 PM, said:

By "LB", I can only presume you mean "DB" with some sort of dyslexia.  You wouldn't use DB for mobility, but Heartseeker is adequate for jumping around the map when there's nothing to jump to with Steal. The damage from Infiltrator's Strike is weak and you can only bounce from two points at a time. Whereas with Heartseeker you can spring away if you're in trouble. You can also *cripple* and kite, which you cannot do with S/P. You can try dazing and running with the pistol off-hand but that's not going to stick for long.

Also, stop using words like "comfort zone". I don't hold the same opinion as you, that's all. It lowers the validity of your argument.

On this note, I've been having a few issues where I spam the HS to escape from large mobs (lol) where I actually do a 180 degree turn and run into the mob ._.

Do you have this issue?
I've also made sure not to target anyone, but every once in a while the character turns 180 after a HS.

#34 Nai

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 05:26 PM

I have been a fan of S/P for PvE and have found it quite limiting in Wvw.  I hadn't thought of using the Blind ability for stomping though... that's a nice alternative to doing it in stealth perhaps.

I'm quite surprised that there's not much discussion of S/D for Wvw.  Best of both worlds between S & D.  Instead of Heartseeker you get what I often find is the best Sword ability - the shadowstep.  It's awesome for chasing someone down (not just the gap close but also because of the immobilize after the first strike) as well as jumping in & out of big fights and having a condition remover while doing so.  

As Elan suggested though, our profession is blessed with numerous good choices.  Just go into your toolbox and pick the right tool for the job.

#35 Cloutt

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 08:49 PM

View PostNai, on 06 November 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

I'm quite surprised that there's not much discussion of S/D for Wvw.  Best of both worlds between S & D.  Instead of Heartseeker you get what I often find is the best Sword ability - the shadowstep.  It's awesome for chasing someone down (not just the gap close but also because of the immobilize after the first strike) as well as jumping in & out of big fights and having a condition remover while doing so.  .

agreed, s/d is very useful, but even more uncommon, and I believe that's because of it's little to none bursting down ability.

and this is just my own opinion from my experience, but i'd say d/d is more useful in wvw than any other sets. Why?
CnD. The most useful tool in wvw by far. We r the squishiest class, and yes u can dodge, but u can't dodge forever, especially not in wvw. And that's y we have every class' favorite ability, stealth, which makes it very easy to stay alive in a big mob (as long as ur not in the 'no man's land').

On a side note...that revealed debuff is goddamn annoying, i understand the op-ness of perma stealth but srsly revealed needs a lil fixing.

And yes, u'd say CnD is also available for s/d users, but then i'd say, how do u plan on bursting down someone before ur noticed? U have the ability to go in and out of ur fights, but what rly is the point of that when there's a battle going on all around u where u will have to assume ur being targetted by more than one opponent?

It all comes down to ur play style and honestly playing different things and figuring it out on ur own, but stealth...u just can't forget bout stealth.

EDIT: I totally forgot to mention, the ability to make the other team bitch, QQ, call out 'HAXXXX' and even cause seizures from the amount of stress ur causing them when they r trying to take ur keep...CnD is ur best fran.

Edited by Cloutt, 06 November 2012 - 08:55 PM.


#36 Graham_Specter

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:35 PM

To actually reply to the OP, it's a matter of taste. Some of us prefer to have the fight done quickly, others prefer to keep up a stream of control effects and whittle stuff down. Both are workable options which tend to result in the same outcome - a dead enemy. Heck, pair up a dagger/dagger and pistol/pistol thief and I'm sure one could expect good results.

#37 tony32p

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 05:46 PM

View PostEmma Wolfsbane, on 31 October 2012 - 02:46 AM, said:

20k Damage :

Start casting Cloak and Dagger, in the middle of the cast use Steal with Mug (4-6k Damage) then your cloak and dagger lands (4-6k Damage) then you backstab (10-14k damage). That's 20k+ damage in basically the time it takes to do one attack.
then what do you do. auto attack until your  steal is back up? what would your rotation look like in an explorable dungeon for this build? tyvm

#38 Erasmus

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:14 PM

View Posttony32p, on 07 November 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

then what do you do. auto attack until your  steal is back up? what would your rotation look like in an explorable dungeon for this build? tyvm
I haven't done a bunch of dungeons on my thief (only the 5 for this month's monthly) but my 'dps rotation' on a mob I can get behind is to CnD > Back Stab > All three abilities of auto attack chain > repeat.  This puts me into stealth just as Revealed wears off and as long as I don't miss CnD I can keep it up forever with Opportunist and Infusion of Shadow.

Edited by Erasmus, 08 November 2012 - 10:17 PM.


#39 Red_Falcon

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 11:17 PM

I love D/D and SB.
I find sword mainhand to be a bit lackluster in its stealth skil.. daze 2s and terrible damage, meh.
Pistols never attracted me a lot either, they don't feel as fun and flashy as daggers.

D/D is just lots of fun, you get to stack anti-heal poison from auto, great finisher/gap closer from seeker, and god dancing dagger is so good against 2-3 people.
SB is great for siege due to damage and area weakness.

#40 atomicmew

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:02 AM

View PostLegitsu, on 03 November 2012 - 10:17 PM, said:

On this note, I've been having a few issues where I spam the HS to escape from large mobs (lol) where I actually do a 180 degree turn and run into the mob ._.

Do you have this issue?
I've also made sure not to target anyone, but every once in a while the character turns 180 after a HS.
You need to turn auto-targetting off.  One of the many annoyances with GW2 controls.

#41 Elr3d

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:00 AM

View PostCloutt, on 06 November 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

agreed, s/d is very useful, but even more uncommon, and I believe that's because of it's little to none bursting down ability.

and this is just my own opinion from my experience, but i'd say d/d is more useful in wvw than any other sets. Why?
CnD. The most useful tool in wvw by far. We r the squishiest class, and yes u can dodge, but u can't dodge forever, especially not in wvw. And that's y we have every class' favorite ability, stealth, which makes it very easy to stay alive in a big mob (as long as ur not in the 'no man's land').

On a side note...that revealed debuff is goddamn annoying, i understand the op-ness of perma stealth but srsly revealed needs a lil fixing.

And yes, u'd say CnD is also available for s/d users, but then i'd say, how do u plan on bursting down someone before ur noticed? U have the ability to go in and out of ur fights, but what rly is the point of that when there's a battle going on all around u where u will have to assume ur being targetted by more than one opponent?

It all comes down to ur play style and honestly playing different things and figuring it out on ur own, but stealth...u just can't forget bout stealth.

EDIT: I totally forgot to mention, the ability to make the other team bitch, QQ, call out 'HAXXXX' and even cause seizures from the amount of stress ur causing them when they r trying to take ur keep...CnD is ur best fran.

Sword/Dagger is a beast in WvWvW, I can tell you from experience (as being one of the uncommon S/D thief out there). It is definitely not the same focus as D/D or even S/P. You don't want to burst your opponent down, you want to harass him, make him run then immobilize with 2/cripple with 4, cloak daze cloak daze all the day, heal in stealth, disorient, stealth your poor ele friend that's getting burnt down, etc.

S/D is for defensive play and longer fights but is far from underwhelming and does very well stands as an efficient build for WvWvW in the same fashion as D/D does.

#42 EvilFree

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:05 AM

I too run around with S/D and enjoy it much more than D/D.

D/D is all about picking out a single target and trying to bbq it as quick as possible.  My experience in wvw is this does work quite a lot, but you have more flexibility and options with S/D.

You just have to remember that your not doing massive damage, but the conditions and cripples you have are great.  I always use Poison now with my Sword and it works great when dealing damage over time and limiting healing.

#43 Legitsu

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 10:30 PM

I love the D/D because of its massive damage and I can bring a warrior down to about 30% health in a burst of my attacks, but once that happens and they hit endure pain... I'm screwed. Similar things happen against guardians as they have heaps of regeneration skills and don't bloody die!

A thief should really get in there and finish up a fight in like... ~5 seconds or else he dies.
But I can't seem to finish off a warrior/guardian in 5 seconds :\

Anyone use S/P and win against these classes effectively?
This is for both WvW and PvP.

#44 tony32p

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:12 PM

do you put sigil of accuracy on both daggers?

Edited by tony32p, 14 November 2012 - 12:42 AM.


#45 Legitsu

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 10:43 AM

View Posttony32p, on 13 November 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

do you put sigil of accuracy on both daggers?

Yeah I did

#46 Mithlom

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 04:40 PM

View PostEvilFree, on 09 November 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

I too run around with S/D and enjoy it much more than D/D.
...

View PostElr3d, on 09 November 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

...S/D is for defensive play and longer fights but is far from underwhelming and does very well stands as an efficient build for WvWvW in the same fashion as D/D does.

How are you two spec'd to run S/D?  Just wondering an example build... I've seen a lot of D/D builds, and a few S/P.  Feel like as soon as someone has mentioned S/D in the past, they get jumped and it gets dropped ;)

#47 EvilFree

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 03:40 PM

Im using a 0/30/30/10/0

This gives me moderate damage and high survivability, especially in wvw.  combind with the sword and dagger, as well as poisons you can keep quite a few people crippled.

#48 Elr3d

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:24 PM

I'm using a 0/0/30/15/25 build, very close to Dacromir's build, available here (we helped each other refine our respective builds, now we run pretty much the same thing, although there is a Sigil difference and maybe a trait or 2). http://wiki.guildwar...s/Thief/Acrobat

Basically you "abuse" stealth might stacking and daze your opponent for quite a long time. This forces most people you encounter in 1v1 to run away (because well, they can't do much), and from there it's catch the mouse. Also very great for small commando teams as your group stealthing potential allows awesome support.

Edited by Elr3d, 20 November 2012 - 04:25 PM.


#49 Legitsu

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:13 AM

Update from my part.

I've continued using dual daggers with full beserkers gear and the equivilant in SPvP. I've come to love these more now and realised that I was just a noob at the time of writing this thread. I admit that I still am a newbie in this game, however, I've been able to learn how to stealth better and use shadowstep to effectively burst down my enemies.

For anyone curious, I generally use D/D for PvP and WvW. I occasionally use S/P for dungeons.

As a side note...
I suck at condition damage and don't really like how I take forever to kill people.

Edited by Legitsu, 23 November 2012 - 12:14 AM.


#50 BabelFish

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 06:40 PM

View Postsilentdecay01, on 02 November 2012 - 02:48 AM, said:

s/p is just bad for wvw..... d/d/pvp best Dmg/Utility you can bring to your group, And please no " omg u no short bowz depr derp derp"
I use it, farmed 60 tokens in a day from kills (I'm gonna estimate around 80-120 kills) in a 24hr period. The trick with S/P is to roam with friends and if u zerg you switch to your SB, spam CB and once someone is out of position switch to S/P and IS in+PW+Haste+PW and IS back out when things get hairy. Now you've probably got a kill, made the enemy zerg waste cooldowns, probably forced more enemies out of position and you're relatively safe thanks to swapping back to the SB. It's a very different style then the D/D or P/D thief which leads to many believing its not good in WvW.

#51 mofogie

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 12:39 PM

i'm still playing with specs as my gear changes, but i can tell you both are good for pve and wvw.

S/P can really screw someone over in WvW.  It's continuous stun, and immobilize, and good damage output too.  I've killed a lot of ganking thieves with shadowstep and pistol whip.  With high crit, i stacked Sigils of Rage, and get about 4-5 procs per minute.  If a proc happens on an enemy thief, he's probably dead.

D/D is alot simpelr to play, just get in, killl, get out, recloak if theyre not dead and keep trying backstabs.  My backstab is about 7k on someone of decent toughness.  It's hard to kill a good thief with D/D, because any good one can escape after the first backstab.  The chance of a DD thief kiling me as any spec is about 5% on the initial 30 seconds. But a S/P can really screw over someone, and not just a thief.

PvE, i havent done the calculations, but with the 9X attack on pistol whip, quickness procs frequently, and 1 quickness proc is an exorbitant amount of damage, probably equivalent to several lightnign strikes.  this is the advantage S/P has over DD





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