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Sigil of Force or Accuracy


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#1 GW2Ranger

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 03:00 PM

Hi everyone,
I am pretty much concern on which Sigil I should be going for.
Would be glad to hear your opinions on this before I nail down on the final decision.


I am a PVE ranger using Long and Short Bow combination. Currently in berserker set using berserker rune. Together with berserker accessories, my current Critical Chance is max out at 52%.

Example:

In level 80 Map,
My normal damage is approximately: 500+ damage and my critical damage is approximately 1000+ damage.

So i was considering which option below I should go for for my weapon.

Sigil of Force + 5% damage (I think it only adds 25+ dmg to normal damage, not crit, not condition thought I can’t be sure.)

Sigil of Accuracy +5% critical chance, this means from 52% i will be up to 57%. But does this 5% really make a difference within the range of 50%?

Another alternative is to use Ruby Orb that gives :
20 power, +2% Critical Damage (20 dmg) and 14 Precision (which is +1% critical chance)


So out of the 3 option, I believe the Orb is out.

Only normal damage vs Critical chance.

Please share with me what you think is the best course of action.

Thank you

Edited by GW2Ranger, 27 October 2012 - 03:01 PM.


#2 OnePunkArmy

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:41 PM

Accuracy if you have an effect that triggers on crit, such as some traits.
Force for a universal sigil that also works on environmental targets (gates, objects, etc).

#3 Tibbel

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 07:17 PM

Good question!
And since I felt like doing a little bit of algebra...

Posted Image

Here's the derivation, in case anyone cares...
Spoiler

Edited by Tibbel, 28 October 2012 - 07:26 PM.


#4 Aetou

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:16 PM

Are you sure that Sigil of Force increases Condition Damage Tibbel? I'm pretty sure that both + and - damage traits generally get bypassed entirely by condition damage.

Anyway, OP, you didn't give the piece of information that actually lets you make the calculation: what is your Crit Damage?  If you have +50% or more Crit Damage then your crits do +200% damage (or more) then Accuracy is always better than Force.  If you are in the 35-50% range then it becomes less clear cut and depends on how many on-crit procs you have and how often you'll be suffering Weakness (quite often in PvP.)

#5 Tibbel

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 12:26 AM

View PostAetou, on 28 October 2012 - 11:16 PM, said:

Are you sure that Sigil of Force increases Condition Damage Tibbel? I'm pretty sure that both + and - damage traits generally get bypassed entirely by condition damage.

No, the +5% damage only affects direct damage, which I believe I correctly represented. Notice that the condition damage portion {+.5CS} does not get multiplied by the 1.05 bonus in the Sigil of Force formula:
Damage with Sigil of Force = Df = H * (1 + C * (B+.5)) * (1+0.05) + .5C * S

Does that make sense, or did I overlook something?

Edited by Tibbel, 29 October 2012 - 12:27 AM.


#6 xEagleEyex

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 05:21 AM

Out of the 2 Sigils in discussion, I personally would go for the Sigil of Force. Anything above 50% crit is overkill imho.

#7 BrettM

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 01:26 PM

Why are you not considering a stacking sigil, like Sigil of Perception (up to 25 stacks of +10 Precision)? If you don't get downed a whole lot, this gives a bigger boost to crit chance than Sigil of Accuracy. I'm curious as to why you would rule Perception and Bloodlust out of the debate. Are there downsides to these that I don't see, other than the need to rebuild the stacks whenever you get downed or zone?

#8 skooterodin

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 08:20 PM

or use sig of percept on a few easy mobs to build it up with like a 78 exotic bow then swap to your 80 with other sigil. percept still stays on ya till ya die.

#9 Dark

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 08:33 PM

I prefer accuracy on my ranger..

#10 Limbolein

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 09:44 AM

View PostAetou, on 28 October 2012 - 11:16 PM, said:

If you have +50% or more Crit Damage then your crits do +200% damage (or more) then Accuracy is always better than Force.  If you are in the 35-50% range then it becomes less clear cut and depends on how many on-crit procs you have and how often you'll be suffering Weakness (quite often in PvP.)

That's what I was guessing first, too, but it's not correct. A friend and I calculated the overall direct damage increase for both +5% damage and crit chance in Excel. The higher your base crit chance is the better the 5% damage is compared to 5% crit chance. That's because +damage increases all your hits (both non-crit and crit) while +crit chance only shifts a part of your damage from one term into the other. For example at 42% crit chance it needs a crit damage bonus of 118% (for crits doing 268% damage) to make +5% crit chance more effective than +5% damage.

However, I was testing Sigil of Force yesterday with the PvP Steady Weapons and it turned out that I was doing LOWER damage with the sigil than without. I had hits of 104 without any sigil, put in Sigil of Force and did 101 damage, then replaced it with Sigil of Air to do 104 damage again. It seems that at least the PvP sigil is bugged. Don't know if this applies to the PvE/WvW one as well.

#11 Tibbel

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 03:03 PM

View PostLimbolein, on 30 October 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

However, I was testing Sigil of Force yesterday with the PvP Steady Weapons and it turned out that I was doing LOWER damage with the sigil than without. I had hits of 104 without any sigil, put in Sigil of Force and did 101 damage, then replaced it with Sigil of Air to do 104 damage again. It seems that at least the PvP sigil is bugged. Don't know if this applies to the PvE/WvW one as well.

In my testing, I was seeing a correct 5% increase by using a longbow with a Sigil of Force over a longbow without a sigil.

Long Range Shot (max range)

Without: 110 non-crit, 195 crit

With: 115 non-crit, 205 crit



#12 Limbolein

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 08:30 AM

Did a test again yesterday and this time everything was right. Hits with the sigil did 101 damage again, but without it only 96. I wonder what was wrong two days ago as I had double checked the hits doing 104 damage without the sigil..

#13 Cake is Cake

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 11:58 AM

View PostAetou, on 28 October 2012 - 11:16 PM, said:

Anyway, OP, you didn't give the piece of information that actually lets you make the calculation: what is your Crit Damage?  If you have +50% or more Crit Damage then your crits do +200% damage (or more) then Accuracy is always better than Force.  If you are in the 35-50% range then it becomes less clear cut and depends on how many on-crit procs you have and how often you'll be suffering Weakness (quite often in PvP.)

echoing this as it is correct

EDIT: I'm slightly mistaken

Edited by Cake is Cake, 06 November 2012 - 09:54 PM.


#14 Tibbel

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 02:35 PM

View PostCake is Cake, on 01 November 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

echoing this as it is correct

It's true that +5% crit chance increases total damage by 5% if crits are dealing +100% damage (so 50% base crit damage +50% bonus from runes/traits/whatever), but only if we assume a starting crit chance of 0%.

If we start with some crit chance higher than that, then increasing that crit chance by a further 5% results in a smaller percentage gain. (For example, adding +5% crit chance on top of an existing 25% chance increases net damage by 4%.)

Edited by Tibbel, 01 November 2012 - 02:36 PM.


#15 Limbolein

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 04:13 PM

Or let's say it like this: if you have +50% crit damage (so your crits do 200% damage) then +5% crit chance gives you +5% overall damage. But if you initially have 20% crit chance you already do 120% damage, so +5% damage gives you +6% overall damage.

#16 paradiselight

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 05:15 PM

Ignoring on-crit effect, sigil of superior accuracy is better than sigil of superior force if

Crit damage bonus > 1 + crit chance x crit damage bonus

* crit damage bonus = 0.5 + bonus from equipment and traits

To convert to +damage bonus, it's

0.05 x crit damage bonus/(1 + crit chance x crit damage bonus)

Example:
1) At 0% crit chance and +50% crit damage bonus from traits and equipment, checking the equation
1 = 1 + 0 x 1
Sigil of superior accuracy is equal to sigil of superior force

2) At 40% crit chance and 168% crit damage bonus, checking the equation
LHS : 1.68
RHS: 1 + 0.40 x 1.68 = 1.672
1.68 > 1.672 so sigil of superior accuracy is better, but not by much since it only gives
+5.05% increase in damage

#17 Quarktastic

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 09:46 PM

But what happens when you factor in a sigil that has a chance to proc an effect on a critical hit. For instance, I use a sigil of fire on my main hand axe, and a sigil of accuracy on my torch. Would I be better off with a sigil of force over a sigil of accuracy in this case? Or perhaps something else entirely like a sigil of smoldering?

#18 paradiselight

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:14 AM

View PostQuarktastic, on 05 November 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

But what happens when you factor in a sigil that has a chance to proc an effect on a critical hit. For instance, I use a sigil of fire on my main hand axe, and a sigil of accuracy on my torch. Would I be better off with a sigil of force over a sigil of accuracy in this case? Or perhaps something else entirely like a sigil of smoldering?
Theoretically speaking, if you tell me your current stats (power, crit, crit damage, condition damage and condition duration), your trait setup, your skill rotation, as well as the accurate cast time (not the number Anet slapped on the top right hand corner of skill description) of all the skills in your rotation, I can tell you after some ridiculously tedious calculation which sigil is better.

My point is, it's not worth the trouble. When the numbers are close, just put on whichever that gets your fancy, In most cases, that's superior accuracy because on crit effects are more fun to see.




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