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Mass stacking of players - legit or exploit?


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#1 ritsuko

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 07:37 PM

DEYS EU alliance from BG just led their server force using a tactic that I've seen theorized before in small teams, but this is the first time I've seen it used to this extent. What they did was they mass stacked about 40+ players in a single spot, spamming aoe heals and absorption shields. AOE damage and other effects are ineffective against them as AOE can only hit 5 players, and any insignificant damage gets topped up up fast that not a single player in their mass stack died. While AOE can damage only 5 players, there are many heals that can heal more than 5 players. Even if one gets downed, 5 players can just instantly revive.

Utilizing this mass stacking tactic, they have successfully taken a tier 3 tower and a tier 3 keep in record time by stacking near the gates and using 1-2 rams, without needing to move or dodge AOE at all. On the open field, they do this as well, destroying every force that comes near them. They use mesmer portals to move the mass stack of players around.

It's ingeniously well coordinated when it involves a whole server's force on the map. Do you think that this is a legit tactic, or an exploit of game mechanics? Do you know of any way to counter this? (This is not a QQ thread, it's meant for discussion)

From what I've researched, this 'Turtle' tactic is quite common on EU servers, but has recently been surfacing on NA brackets.

Example of Turtle tactic used on EU server from BOON point of view:


Edited by ritsuko, 27 October 2012 - 10:11 PM.


#2 Nevron

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 07:41 PM

I don't think it's really an exploit, I just think it's bad game design. Anything that enables a zerg to zerg more effectively is bad design. Clustering up should be penalized, not rewarded.

#3 Sathure

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 07:42 PM

View Postritsuko, on 27 October 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

DEYS EU alliance from BG just led their server force using a tactic that I've seen theorized before in small teams, but this is the first time I've seen it used to this extent. What they did was they mass stacked about 40+ players in a single spot, spamming aoe heals and absorption shields. AOE damage and other effects are ineffective against them as AOE can only hit 5 players, and any insignificant damage gets topped up up fast that not a single player in their mass stack died. While AOE can damage only 5 players, there are many heals that can heal more than 5 players. Even if one gets downed, 5 players can just instantly revive.

Utilizing this mass stacking tactic, they have successfully taken a tier 3 tower and a tier 3 keep in record time by stacking near the gates and using 1-2 rams, without needing to move or dodge AOE at all. On the open field, they do this as well, destroying every force that comes near them. They use mesmer portals to move the mass stack of players around.

It's ingeniously well coordinated when it involves a whole server's force on the map. Do you think that this is a legit tactic, or an exploit of game mechanics? Do you know of any way to counter this?

It's not a new tactic. When we got match up with Maguma a few times back they had several guilds doing it well before 1 week matches started. Starfleet Dental being a big one.

Posted Image

Ways to counter is to split up the group. AoE knock backs. Get some Catas/Trebs pounding on them in a rotation. Along with constant AoE pressure. Can take em down. We've done it before to Mag and it's been done before to us when I've run with DEYS.

Edited by Sathure, 27 October 2012 - 08:57 PM.


#4 The Servant

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 07:44 PM

View Postritsuko, on 27 October 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

Do you think that this is a legit tactic, or an exploit of game mechanics?

Every time someone uses a legit tactic that's light years ahead of what bad player can comprehend, there's a bunch of forum posts asking "is this legit".

The enemy using Portal. "Is this legit??? Omg enemy is using effective skill set and not just zerging!"
Enemies stacking. "Is this legit??? Omg it works, it can't be legit!"



The impression I got from reading game forums is that GW2 is the first online multplayer game for 20% of population.

View PostNevron, on 27 October 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

I don't think it's really an exploit

So you're not really 100% sure?

Edited by The Josip, 27 October 2012 - 07:46 PM.


#5 Venereus

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 08:05 PM

WvW is first and foremost a numbers game. Once the numbers are roughly same, organization makes you win. If you can reach the level of coordination to pull that off, you deserve those results. No exploit here.

#6 Jackiepro

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 08:08 PM

Slowly these things are starting to be problematic. This stacking has been present in EU from very early on.

I think unlimited aoe healing, portaling unlimited players, and rendering issues, are 3 major factors contributing to fueling zerging tactics to a point where it simply cannot be countered.

For people saying "you are just complaining". What to do? you can bring your own 40 players and stand in a ball too, then nobody dies and you probably wont even render a quarter of the enemy. Sounds fun right? yay wvw!

#7 Laylyn

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 08:10 PM

View Postritsuko, on 27 October 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

DEYS EU alliance from BG just led their server force using a tactic that I've seen theorized before in small teams, but this is the first time I've seen it used to this extent. What they did was they mass stacked about 40+ players in a single spot, spamming aoe heals and absorption shields. AOE damage and other effects are ineffective against them as AOE can only hit 5 players, and any insignificant damage gets topped up up fast that not a single player in their mass stack died. While AOE can damage only 5 players, there are many heals that can heal more than 5 players. Even if one gets downed, 5 players can just instantly revive.

Utilizing this mass stacking tactic, they have successfully taken a tier 3 tower and a tier 3 keep in record time by stacking near the gates and using 1-2 rams, without needing to move or dodge AOE at all. On the open field, they do this as well, destroying every force that comes near them. They use mesmer portals to move the mass stack of players around.

It's ingeniously well coordinated when it involves a whole server's force on the map. Do you think that this is a legit tactic, or an exploit of game mechanics? Do you know of any way to counter this?

From what I've researched, this 'Turtle' tactic is quite common on EU servers, but has recently been surfacing on NA brackets.

It's a mostly EU legit tactic from what I've seen.  It is also a reason to fear Maguuma if they ever fully roll out.  Goon Squad has been practicing tactics with that for a bit.


/salute

#8 turbo234

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 08:12 PM

I wouldn't call it an exploit, but I do think the game mechanics for heals need to be adjusted to avoid it. Just make aoe heals affect only a certain amount of allies.

#9 Laylyn

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 08:12 PM

View PostJackiepro, on 27 October 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

Slowly these things are starting to be problematic. This stacking has been present in EU from very early on.

I think unlimited aoe healing, portaling unlimited players, and rendering issues, are 3 major factors contributing to fueling zerging tactics to a point where it simply cannot be countered.

For people saying "you are just complaining". What to do? you can bring your own 40 players and stand in a ball too, then nobody dies and you probably wont even render a quarter of the enemy. Sounds fun right? yay wvw!

Arrow carts seem to slaughter more than 5 at a time in my experience.  That's how we dropped the Mag squads in the past.

I think the 5 cap limit is more player than siege weapon.


/salute

#10 Sathure

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 08:19 PM

View PostLaylyn, on 27 October 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

Arrow carts seem to slaughter more than 5 at a time in my experience.  That's how we dropped the Mag squads in the past.

I think the 5 cap limit is more player than siege weapon.


/salute

This works too depending on the size of group.

I remember a battle at a bridge in one of the BLs with SFD. We built 3-4 arrow carts and brought em down pretty quick.

The problem with it is when things go wrong with it. They go WRONG. The entire group wipes. So that could be about 40-50 people running back from spawn leaving an area pretty much empty.

Edited by Sathure, 27 October 2012 - 08:21 PM.


#11 Quekie

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 08:34 PM

Looks like the using the tactics the botters thought up is actually effective. (Not being sarcastic) Its actually a very nice idea overall which uses the bad game design. Very well thought off, kudos.

However, WvW will become a "botter" stack if ANet don't look into this as this tactic will be the most viable and I believe this isn't as the game designers intended method of WvW.

Posted Image

Arrow carts doesn't work as the heals, heal more than the arrow carts damage and the proc is random. IMHO, if damage is capped to 5 limit, heals should be capped also.

Videos will be coming out soon.

Edited by Quekie, 27 October 2012 - 08:35 PM.


#12 Smokee

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:05 PM

If you think it´s as easy as getting together 20 people and then you´r invincible if you stack together, then think twice. ( or try it out for yourself <_< ) We as a guild and an alliance have been theorycrafting, practissing and gearing up for this since the beta.
It´s a fairly common tactic in EU, and tbh a guild like VoTF that are now on an NA sever and posting with arguments against it, have been far better than us at it previous.

The last 2 weeks with close to no fighting for BG, have given us time to gear up for it, and give us time to practise it.

We´ve been spending hours and hours just porting around in pve to get the right tactics down. If you dont believe us, ask anyone from BG.

Is it a flaw in the gamesystem? I can´t comment on that.But as long as it´s within the system ant aint considered such as Arenanet, I do consider it a legit tactic. HB has been going since 2001, and have always strifed to be the best in whatever games we´ve been playing, and have always been in the top. We are not a hardcore guild, but we´re filled with people that want to be the best, and do what it takes to become it. If Arenanet should decide to change the current system, rest assured that HB will adapt and learn, just as we have adapt and learned from the enemies we´ve been fighting. ( Special thanks to Boon Control, VoTF and Red Guard on the EU servers for bringing us the toughest fightst so far, forcing us to learn and adapt )

Edited by Smokee, 27 October 2012 - 09:05 PM.


#13 ritsuko

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:15 PM

SBI finally slayed the BG DEYS Alliance Turtle in Bay Keep after a long fight, using a combination of mid-range hit-and-run AOE skills, some siege weapons and engineer mortars (which seem to be the most effective).

I understand the amount of theorycrafting, squad config and practice for portals and skill rotations that went into this to make it effective. But just wondering if it is intended by ArenaNet as a superior tactic brought about by AOE effects being limited to 5 targets.

It seems very smart and tactical for 15-20 man squads to utilize this, but when 50-60+ players do it, it gets really interesting to watch.

Edited by ritsuko, 27 October 2012 - 09:17 PM.


#14 Quekie

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:22 PM

Legit, definitely. It really does require lots of training and coordination, that I agree. But the question is, did ANet really design the game for players to stack like this? If really so, time for us to practice :D

#15 Acidbaron

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:25 PM

Only arenanet can answer that. However knowing that several abilities got nerfed for such reasons.

Those builds still exist while they were aware of their strength in the beta program and several patches later, i don't see them finding it problematic or those things would've been hotfixed.


I do find it odd that this is the first time you encounter it, this has been used and perfected since the start of the game also by all servers i played against. Portals and stacking aren't anything new. I do find it interesting all these claims or questions about such game mechanics pop up right now when people can't simply brute force, or zerg a group down :)

Edited by Acidbaron, 27 October 2012 - 09:27 PM.


#16 Smokee

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:27 PM

View Postritsuko, on 27 October 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:


It seems very smart and tactical for 15-20 man squads to utilize this, but when 50-60+ players do it, it gets really interesting to watch.

Just to clarify, DEYS have´nt stacked up 50-60 players anytime during this matchup. I have been running around with 10-30 people most of the day. At one time tonight ( and I think it´s the time at Bay you´r refering to ) we grouped up with KDS and had a little less than 40 members combined.

GJ taking us down btw. You caught us by surprise, and we were getting to over confident :cool:

#17 BDT

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:28 PM

They are all unique accounts and players btw.  Everyone is controlling their toon.  What those screen shots won't show you is when they decide to spread out and whatnaught.  Plus bots only run a specific path

#18 The Primo

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:29 PM

Have enough mesmers go keep feedback cycling on the ball.

#19 fatality39

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:29 PM

LOL. The crying never ceases to amaze me. Stacking up an exploit???? hahahahah....whine more.

#20 correllis

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:33 PM

TO be dependent entirely on JUST one profession, one utility, is just too lopsided to be considered "Design as Intended".

#21 rastazi

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:34 PM

I'm glad this is catching on. Maybe once it becomes more mainstream people will take these tactics to the next level. Maguuma has gotten the hang of portalling stacks around, setting up siege inside of stacks effectively, and how to synergize our skills really well. I want to see us get pushed to do things like set up flanks with portals and try other more interesting things.

View Postcorrellis, on 27 October 2012 - 09:33 PM, said:

TO be dependent entirely on JUST one profession, one utility, is just too lopsided to be considered "Design as Intended".

Uhh... what utility is that?

#22 The Primo

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:37 PM

Feedback it.  Drop feedback on the ball constantly.

#23 Laylyn

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:37 PM

View Postrastazi, on 27 October 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

I'm glad this is catching on. Maybe once it becomes more mainstream people will take these tactics to the next level. Maguuma has gotten the hang of portalling stacks around, setting up siege inside of stacks effectively, and how to synergize our skills really well. I want to see us get pushed to do things like set up flanks with portals and try other more interesting things.



Uhh... what utility is that?


Give the game a few months and servers time to organize.   On the NA side, Mag was a bit ahead of the curb with that.


/salute

#24 Smokee

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:39 PM

View Postrastazi, on 27 October 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

I'm glad this is catching on. Maybe once it becomes more mainstream people will take these tactics to the next level. Maguuma has gotten the hang of portalling stacks around, setting up siege inside of stacks effectively, and how to synergize our skills really well. I want to see us get pushed to do things like set up flanks with portals and try other more interesting things.



Uhh... what utility is that?

Damn you need to learn the basics of the game already. Any semi pro pew pew player knows that it is the healing turret. Just read the official boards.. nab ! :P

https://forum-en.gui...ng-turret/first

#25 Acidbaron

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:40 PM

View Postrastazi, on 27 October 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

I'm glad this is catching on. Maybe once it becomes more mainstream people will take these tactics to the next level. Maguuma has gotten the hang of portalling stacks around, setting up siege inside of stacks effectively, and how to synergize our skills really well. I want to see us get pushed to do things like set up flanks with portals and try other more interesting things.

I agree, this moves us forward.
Away from single minded zergs and tactics generally seen as simple "brute forces" that don't require a high level of coordination.
These "skill build" wars could end up getting interesting with finding counters and adopting. Rather then it just being a pure numbers game.

#26 trippy_wicked

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:50 PM

feedback it? I just created an account to let you guys know how hillarious it is to watch that pinkish bubble on a dagger-throwing, projectile-reflecting thief...insta gib =P

#27 Nevron

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:51 PM

View PostThe Josip, on 27 October 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

Every time someone uses a legit tactic that's light years ahead of what bad player can comprehend, there's a bunch of forum posts asking "is this legit".

The enemy using Portal. "Is this legit??? Omg enemy is using effective skill set and not just zerging!"
Enemies stacking. "Is this legit??? Omg it works, it can't be legit!"

You're giving those who stack up way too much credit. It's common knowledge that there is a five player limit on most AoE's. It doesn't take a genius to figure it out. The reason the legitimacy is in question is because it promotes and rewards clustering, which is the opposite of utilizing tactical movement and gameplay. I know, people may argue that stacking up is some sort of advanced tactic, but it's something that even mediocre groups can pull off.

Oh, and stacking was a thing in Shadowbane back in 2003. It was used to lock up opponents, handing out sb.exe errors en masse.



View PostThe Josip, on 27 October 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

So you're not really 100% sure?

From my point of view, it's not exploitative in the context of cheating, no.

Edited by Nevron, 27 October 2012 - 09:51 PM.


#28 Smokee

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:51 PM

View Posttrippy_wicked, on 27 October 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

feedback it? I just created an account to let you guys know how hillarious it is to watch that pinkish bubble on a dagger-throwing, projectile-reflecting thief...insta gib =P

That is why we always bring atleast 50% thiefs ! If any class is OP, it is the thiefs in the current state.

#29 MrZero

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:57 PM

This is a legit tactic. I remember it being used in Shadowbane. Shadowbane also had the target limit and damage shields. The aoe heals were limited to group members and there was friendly fire. It was effective then and looks effective now in this game.

#30 Oldthrall

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 10:04 PM

that's why there never should've been the stupid AoE limit of attacking only 5 people at once...




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