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#1 Shadow209

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 06:15 PM

Hi,
I have a condition build necro and for some reasons I think about switching to something else.
The biggest argument against a condition builds for me is, that the Death Shroud profits from Power, but not from Condition Damage.

I am currently using carrion armor (power/vit/cond) and working on the harder to get rabid armor (tough/prec/cond).
Imho rabid is the only choice on a cond-build, because crits inflict bleed and tough is better than vit, especially on a necro.
So at the moment I still have plenty of power and the DS works fine, though it is noticeable, that I have no points in Spite, but with full rabid armor the damage output will decrease further.

Since DS is kinda like the necros ultimate weapon, I don't want to weaken it. It's still good for defensive purpose, but thats somewhat boring.

So I want to try something else. Rabid armor is not the way, I want to go, because conditions kill quite slow, so you need some survivability.

Maybe I should try something like a power/DS build, allthough I don't know, what is more important, power or survivability.

I do like, to stack bleedigs on opponents to slowly "melt" them away, but I would also like to try someting else. Before i had a "real" build i was running around with Staff and Dagger/Focus, which was fun too, especially since I like being capable of both ranged and melee.

Survivability is someting very important to me, because I like playing dungeons, sometimes without a heavy class. I just did TA together with a mesmer and 3 eles, so I had to tank a lot and I want to be prepared for situations like this, so definately no glass cannon (if this is even possible on a necro).

Another problem i have is that my heal skill (consume conditions) only heals up something like 20-25% of my health bar, which might be because I sill have way too much vit and too less tough.

How do you guys think about this problems and what could be an alternative build, that suits me? I don' mind to spent some gold on changing my skills and armor to test an alternative build, as long as it is craftable armor (some non-craftable stat combos are really hard to get).

#2 CTH444

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 07:00 PM

personally i use rampagers (pow,prec,cond) for my condition necro. Yes its more "glass cannon" but you can still get amulets and such to increase your survivability. Even with rampagers i still rarely die. You can survive just fine if you know what your doing. Going with the rampagers really helps out with the damage output for DS.

Just my 2 cents

#3 BinxyPrime

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 09:03 PM

imo condition damage is all about outlasting your opponents both in pvp and pve, conditions if left unchecked eventually do a TON of damage in long fights, so its important to be able to live.  I dont think that deathshroud being used offensively is that important.

Edited by BinxyPrime, 28 October 2012 - 09:03 PM.


#4 Shadow209

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 09:24 PM

Yeah, but it would be fun to use it offensively.
I just want to try something different, I can always change back to conditions anyway.

I agree, that condition damage is about outlasting, thats, why I don't like rampagers. You can't outlast your opponents as a glass cannon.

If I try a power build, what armor should I use?
Berserkers is too glass cannon. 2 of my best friends use it on their ranger/ele. Since we often play dungeon together I am often the one, who has to tank.
I don't like Knights, because prec without crit seems senseless to me, at least on a power-build, where bleeds through crit aren't that important.
What about Clerics? Healing/pow/tough seems quite good to me. Or is it too passive? I don't really know, how important crits are on a power build.

#5 Bloggi

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 10:04 PM

One little thing to consider though, is that DS, or any hits that deal vanilla damage can benefit from precision which increases the chance of critical hits. A critical hit deals 1.5X of the base vanilla damage which is a good boost. With the necro trait lines, points in Curses will increase precision AND condition damage as well. If you decide to put points in Soul Reaping (which I'm guessing you will, if you wish to use DS more heavily) then that will also increase the damage of your critical hits.

There's quite a few builds in this list so do have a look:

http://www.guildwars...omancer-builds/

Quite a few power builds and also a DS build. In that thread there is also a link to a balanced/ support build that I suggested with a focus on support and survivability, and utilises high precision with moderate boosts to crit damage (maybe I should have called it a precision build?). It's had a poor reception, but check it out if you like in case its any use to you at all. Because of the necro's high HP plus DS, and additional boosts from Lich (increases power and precision, even to the point of getting 100% critical chance even without trying too hard) or Plague (which increases both HP and toughness by a boatload), it is possible to build fairly aggressively and still not be considered fragile.

I like your idea of using DS offensively and believe that DS can and probably should be played this way in some instances, used as a genuine form of pressure and damage instead of just being there for survival. The issue with your heal skill apparently healing for very little of your total health pool is because of low healing power. There was a thread a while back about how building up toughness should complement vitality. High vit and low toughness means losing relatively more health when getting hit, and if healing power is not up to snuff naturally it means you don't get to refill the health pool as competently. Toughness works to reduce the overall damage you take (except from conditions).

So going based on that, Knight's gear isn't a complete outlier in terms of choice. And your level of precision and critical damage also depends on where you choose to put your trait points.

#6 Shadow209

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:07 PM

I totally overlooked, that Soul Reaping increases crit damage as well.
In that case knights makes sense of course. I just meant that the extra damage from high prec but low crit is not that much, but since I'd put 30 points into Soul Reaping I'd get +300 crit anyway, so yeah, knights makes sense now... should have thought about that myself.

I have also seen the thread about vit and tough, so I know about my issues with my low healing.
The problem is: The armor I really wanted on my condition build can't be crafted and is extremly expensive on the TP, so I need to play dungeons to get it, as I don't want to waste too much karma on things other than a legendary weapon either.
The power/vit/cond armor is only a temporary solution and far from perfect.

I've already looked about a few builds especially of course Chronicler's Death Shroud Build, exccept I don't want to use axe, maybe dagger/warhorn.
Your build looks really interesting as well, although it's not exactly what I want.

#7 CTH444

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:17 PM

you can use rampagers and still get your survivabilty from your amulets, rings, earings. I rarely die. And do a ton of condition damage. You just have to know how to play correctly and you will never have a issue with running rampagers.

#8 Bloggi

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:41 PM

View PostShadow209, on 28 October 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:


The problem is: The armor I really wanted on my condition build can't be crafted and is extremly expensive on the TP, so I need to play dungeons to get it, as I don't want to waste too much karma on things other than a legendary weapon either.


This is the unfortunate thing...ideally I'd want that sort of gear myself, but at this time it's a decision between grinding the necessary dungeons to get it, or to shell out hard earned coin to get it. I don't mind doing dungeons, but it isn't always easy to get together a coordinated team with pleasant people for a truly fun experience. Time of course is the other thing and the length of a dungeon run really depends on how well the team works together.

Legendary weapons...I don't think I'd *ever* get one...just don't see myself putting that much time and effort into this. They may tempt me with a nicer looking legendary staff, but with the number of staff users in this game, we'd have to pay through the nose for the precursor regardless.

#9 Shadow209

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 05:28 PM

So this is my first attempt on the actual build:
http://gw2skills.net...txBp497i6x6cH6A

2nd weapon: I don't know, maybe Staff for the high range, although I don't know, if it fits in a non-condition build.

The traits:
"Dagger Mastery" could be replaced by "Transfusion", but since dagger is the main weaon I think this is the best choice
"Ritual Mastery" could be replaced with "Deathly Invigoratuion", if I don't use wells, but I think the well of suffering is quite strong
"Vital Persistance" could be replaced with "Path of Midnight", I don't know, which is better.

Armor:
I'll go with either Knight's, Berserker's or Cleric's, not quite sure about this (think it will be Knight's)

Runes and Sigills:
I have no idea, suggestions are welcome. The rune shouldn't be to expensive and for the Sigills I prefer someting, that does some extra damage on crits.

#10 Ygnizem

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 09:16 PM

Here is what i am using with Knight's equipement and Beserker Jewels:

http://gw2skills.net...PXOLSxxUGli1BPA

It's focused on Death Shroud (offensive aspect of this build) and Spectral skill (defensive aspect, Spectral Wall with increased duration is a-m-a-z-i-n-g).

I have sacrificed the DS cooldown reduction in order to take the Spite Grandmaster trait "Close to Death" (this + vulnerability caused by Spectral Wall and Focus skill #4 = Really good damage).

When not in Death Shroud and not at close range, i find the Axe to be good, not spectacular but good. You can take another weapon, change utilies and traits. (Signet cooldown reduction with Signet of Undeath for exemple ...)

I like this build but i am planning to play something a bit more tanky (even if this one is not that bad with Spectral skills) and built around DS.

______________

If we take the 50% DS cooldown reduction, we are able to enter DS more often.
It could be interesting if we took traits that do something when entering Death Shroud, there are many possibilities.

Something like this seems  really tough (theory crafting):

http://gw2skills.net...Nb9kiu3m6x6ljOA

I don't really know if the two Blood Magic traits are viable or not.
Blood is Power then enter Death Shroud -> you loose your self bleeding -> Life transfer that heals allies while you gain +400 toughness ...

There are probably good other combinations with "3/5s retaliation/fury when entering DS"
traits, hard to decide what to play :D

#11 Bloggi

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 10:12 PM

Just a side note on the traits Transfusion and Deathly Invigoration...on paper, they have desirable effects, but I think that unless we stack a tonne of healing power, the amount of healing from both these skills is quite low. Assuming for example, level 80 and 300 healing power, we're looking at a self heal of 272, which is not a lot, considering another example where if we traited for Bloodthirst then we get more self-heal even on a per pulse basis from MH dagger #2.

Transfusion is something I also did try earlier, it puts out green numbers everywhere in zerg fights but again the amounts seem to be low. Just from memory in a level 42-45 area the heal per pulse was probably about 80 HP or so with around 200 healing power.

Path of Midnight is actually very nice and I use it a lot myself to get Life Transfer off CD as quickly as possible. It could be well warranted in a build that uses DS offensively.

#12 pachua

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 06:38 AM

i don't think condition build should use the death shroud offensively. in power build it make sense, but in condition build? i only use the death shroud as an additional aoe damage (life transfer and enfeebling blood from traits) and also as a panic button, especially useful on dungeon and pvp fights.

as for transfusion, i've been thinking about sporting a dual dagger build that focus itself on healing power but still saving doubts on the validity of this build :P

#13 Shadow209

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 03:10 PM

I'm currently still playing my condition build and I have some points in blood magic, so I'm aware, that all this siphoning traits sound more awesome, than they are. Thats why I picked Dagger Mastery and Ritual Mastery. The 20 pooints in Blood Magic are basically just for Ritual Mastery, as I want to use Well of Blood and Well of Suffering. Of course this could be traded in for 30 points in Spite and Close to Death.

@Xekk:
So you say, I should use Path of Midnight. Should I drop Vial Persistance or Near to Death for it? I really want to have Unyielding Blast, it sounds really cool. So basically when I use DS offensively, i'll want to stay relatively long in DS, to make much damage, so I think, I'll keep Vial Persistance and sacrifice the cooldown reduction.

I don't like spectral armor, since it has really long cooldown.
Ygnizems 2nd build seems quite interesting, though I don't like this blood magic traits, as mentioned above. Also I'd like to put some points in Spite.

#14 Bloggi

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 10:05 PM

Shadow, the choice between Path of Midnight and Vital Persistence is a bit of a toss up and it does depend on your style of play. If you prefer to stay in DS for prolonged periods using the auto attack then Vital Persistence will keep you doing that for longer and add some omph to that attack. And you do already have Reaper's Might so the vulnerability stacks adds even more kick. With Well of Suffering we can get many, many stacks of vulnerability on a single foe and generate 9-10 stacks of Might in this manner in no time. I tend to use the DS skills as part of a rotation with weapon skills so that could explain why I prefer Path of Midnight, and my current build also does not have any points in Spite which makes Life Blast not very useful for me.

Near to Death would be considered stronger in your build than any of those traits above so definitely keep this one. Based on your utilities, there is very good generation of life force already so it would probably need some testing to determine how useful Vital Persistence will be for your build. I tested it briefly in the past and maybe it's just me, but I saw very little difference between using it and not using it.

#15 OChunx

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 01:50 AM

View PostShadow209, on 28 October 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

The biggest argument against a condition builds for me is, that the Death Shroud profits from Power, but not from Condition Damage.

...So at the moment I still have plenty of power and the DS works fine, though it is noticeable, that I have no points in Spite, but with full rabid armor the damage output will decrease further.

Since DS is kinda like the necros ultimate weapon, I don't want to weaken it. It's still good for defensive purpose, but thats somewhat boring.



View PostShadow209, on 28 October 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

So I want to try something else... because conditions kill quite slow, so you need some survivability.

Maybe I should try something like a power/DS build, allthough I don't know, what is more important, power or survivability.

I do like, to stack bleedigs on opponents to slowly "melt" them away...

...Survivability is someting very important to me


Whoa, whoa, whoa. First off, I like the way this thread is going. It's giving some really good advice and I hope that it helps you. But I feel like you're basing your desire to change builds off of false pretenses and contradictions.

Very few people would consider death shroud to be the necro's ultimate weapon. Even if you spec 30 into spite and soul reaping, your overall sustained death shroud DPS would still be pretty terrible. The downside of a condition build is not it's lack of death shroud support, not by a long shot. I don't know what condition build you've even been running, but I'd say 80% of condition builds have at least 20 spite, which provides power to improve death shroud damage (not to mention all the other death shroud traits in the spite/curses/death magic line), so I'm fairly confused about why this is a problem. (I guess it's the lack of power on the equips?)

Secondly, you specifically say "defensive" death shroud is boring yet you want a build with survivability. You also say that you like conditions to melt away your opponents, but dislike the melting part because it is slow. Maybe this part was just a typo because you plainly contradicted your wants, but in terms of DPS, conditions are about as fast as a necro can kill without being a glass cannon frontline dagger/dagger (that lacks the survivability that you desire).

Idk, I just feel we need to know a little more about your playstyle and clear up some of your thoughts before we can really help you. I feel like you really just want a death shroud build and that's why you're switching. If that's the case you can look at this thread to help you out along with your new build that you've already got going: http://www.guildwars...romancer-build/

Edited by OChunx, 31 October 2012 - 01:57 AM.


#16 Shadow209

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 11:34 AM

Yeah, maybe I may have been a bit unclear. What I wanted to say is, that I really like my condition build, but since I haven't played anything other yet, I want to try something new. Defensive DS is fine and works great in my cond build, but I want to try to use it more offensively.

Thats, why I want some kind of power/DS build. The thing about survivability is, that I want to go offensive, without beeing a pure glass cannon. That doesn't mean, I want to tank only. My cond build is also quite an offensive one imho, but survivability is still not bad.

On my cond build: It has to be one of the 20% then, as my traits are 0/30/10/20/10. DS works quite fine, if I have to get away or survive while my heal skill is on cooldown.

I have a build similar to the one, I posted in the mists, but unfortunately I have to farm some more gold, before i can afford new armor and test it in PvE.

I can't tell you too much about my playstyle yet, because like I said, I want to try something different than I'm using now. If I don't like it I can switch back to my condition build anyway. What I'm pretty sure is, that I and to use MH Dagger on this build, but I need some advice on the OH weapon and the 2nd weaponset.

#17 OChunx

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 12:24 AM

Your second weapon set has to be a staff. It's the necro's only weaponset with reliable and high AoE damage and there's little alternative. The long cooldown of wells just make them not viable choices for AoE.

As for the OH weapon, I personally prefer a second dagger. The 4 of focus just seems to do too little damage even with its regen and the 5 is too situational. Most monsters don't even have boons that you can rip. On the other had, the dagger abilities provide good support for close combat. 4 transfers conditions and blinds, which helps when you're in melee range. 5 spreads AoE weakness on mobs, which makes 50% of noncritical attacks only hit you for 50% damage.

#18 mazut

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 07:52 PM

OP, in time make different builds and armor sets/weapon sets and use them in different situations. You can mix armor sets for both look and situational fights, dungeons. You have all the freedom to experiment and use whatever you like.

#19 Shadow209

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 11:25 PM

Unfortunately, I didn't have a lot of time for playing, so I couldn't really get any new stuff. I may hav the freedom to experimant, but at the moment i don't have the money, so I'd rather be sure about what armor I get before I waste my gold on the wrong one.

Is it worth boosting healing power by using clerics armor? It doesn't seem to make too much difference, even when using the Well of Blood.

#20 mazut

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 07:31 PM

I would get power/precision as first set. Healing power is a waste.

Edited by mazut, 12 November 2012 - 07:32 PM.


#21 Shadow209

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:12 AM

So I finally bougth my new gear (most of it), I decided to go full knight's.
For now I'm using the 20/0/0/20/30 build, I posted above and I really like it.

I haven't bought runes and sigils though, so what do you think is best?
Something like tough/power maybe? And some on-crit sigils (like sigil of air)? Or do you have better ideas?




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