18 replies to this topic

[Adalbit]

I have been playing this game for 3-4 weeks so far. I have tried sPvP and WvW a few times on my warr. Maybe I just need to play more, but this games PvP seems very weak. I was an arena player on WoW for a very long time and that took a lot of skill, timing, knowing when enemy CD's are over and even trickery. This game it seems like you do maybe 4 skills and roll once or twice during a fight.

Am I being to rough or just dumb? I got the game because I love PvP and I dont want to quit already.

Thanks

[RivenTheValorous]

WvW is basically a war. A single person cannot go in there and make the difference all on their own. Team cohesion is worth so much more than individual greatness in there. It also helps greatly if your Warrior is fully geared and level 80 in WvW, as that makes a huge difference.

Regarding sPvP, I don't have a lot of experience, but the limited skill bar heightens the skill cap on the game, rather than lowering it. Hot-join games have a lower competition, understandably, as it is a random grab bag of players, but in Tournament or any other structured environment, cooldowns, timing, team composition, ability usage, etc. are far more important. This game has an aspiring esports future in sPvP, just give it some time for balances to come out, same as they did in GW1.

Edited by RivenTheValorous, 29 October 2012 - 06:24 AM.

[Invoky]

How do you expect us to help you like this game?

[elithrar]

Chances are you both need to:

1. Play more.
2. Play against harder enemies.

Join a guild, get in some free tournaments and play that way. Big difference between that and your regular 8v8 hot joins (which never really existed in the WoW arena world).

Edited by elithrar, 29 October 2012 - 11:34 PM.

[Adalbit]

RivenTheValorous, on 29 October 2012 - 06:23 AM, said:

Regarding sPvP, I don't have a lot of experience, but the limited skill bar heightens the skill cap on the game, rather than lowering it.

I keep hearing this from people that the less abilities you get means there is more skill. That blows my mind on how it make no sense to me.

I played a hunter a lot in PvP in WoW and I had to use sooo many different abilities it was insane. When I should stun/slow a target throw a trap (what type of trap) when I should camo, when to use my pet skills and which skill to use. I have maybe 20+ different things I had to choose while seeing what class they where and what they were doing. I really dont see how that is less skill then hitting 3 buttons and rolling.

Thanks for the responce. The WvWvW seems pretty cool I should check that out some more, it just seems this is a younger version of WoW. Hell I solo'd to 80 in less than 3 weeks and didnt play that much during the week.

[Grimrist]

Adalbit, on 30 October 2012 - 03:07 AM, said:

I keep hearing this from people that the less abilities you get means there is more skill. That blows my mind on how it make no sense to me.

it's not about the quantity of skills u can use, it's about knowing how, when, and where u use them. it's about knowing where to position yourself where it'll benefit u and hurt ur enemy the most in a given situation. it's about predicting what ur enemy is gonna do and reacting to/preventing it. etc.

anyway, nothing's wrong with not liking certain aspects of a game. u shouldn't need anyone to help u like PvP. u should be able to decide for yourself. i LOVED GW1 PvP, but i just can't get into it here. but that's ok, it's just not for me. maybe it's the same case for you.

[Grimrist]

Grimrist, on 01 November 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

it's not about the quantity of skills u can use, it's about knowing how, when, and where u use them. it's about knowing where to position yourself where it'll benefit u and hurt ur enemy the most in a given situation. it's about predicting what ur enemy is gonna do and reacting to/preventing it. etc.

anyway, nothing's wrong with not liking certain aspects of a game. u shouldn't need anyone to help u like PvP. u should be able to decide for yourself. i LOVED GW1 PvP, but i just can't get into it here. but that's ok, it's just not for me. maybe it's the same case for you.

EDIT: i missed the 2nd to the last line. idk, maybe just face it that it was bad money investment(for the PvP aspect). like when i bought NFS:Hot Pursuit for my racing game itch but hated it and only played it for a measely 2 hours.

EDIT FAIL!

sorry for double post

Edited by Grimrist, 01 November 2012 - 09:30 PM.

[Gervase]

I was a WoW arena player, Aion Abyss ranker, Rift pvper and many other games. Number of skills you use means nothing, In games like Old ragnarok online I had all my keys from f-1 to f-12, Q to P, A to L and Z to > Key bind with something along my mouse wheel. Such amount of keys made me feel like I was more skilled than everyone and their mom. When I started WoW arena, it felt like a rock, paper scissors face roll. Easy strategies and memorizing cool downs was everything, along with running around people which I found stupid as hell. But it was still rather competitive. The thing about less keys means more skills is, at first you say lol 5 attacks 1 heal and bla bla bla. But, once you master the hidden art that those little key bind have behind them you will notice the level of skill needed to really pvp.

If you face someone who has mastered them you will not stand a chance at all. Gear can't save you, only good team work and individual skill can. Hence why you see so many this class is op and x class is lacking. People complain about the warrior 24 - 7 saying they need a buff and bla bla bla. I play a warrior and I never get less than 15 kills per match, sometimes up to 27+ with nearly no opponent standing a chance.

Something as simple as a dodge in the right time can turn a whole fight over and save you from a well executed combo that could take you down within seconds.

The game is also by no means a young version of WoW. Leaving the end game problems aside it is the evolution of the MMO gender. WoW takes a long time to level simply because blizzard needs people to stay paying. Lvling must be slow, gearing over layers of small content and perusing stupid achievements. Is something like this. Log in for the first time > Grind levels through repetitive quest that are spread around widely to keep you from completing them too fast > Get into dungeons > do the same dungeons over and over for gear a tad bit faster exp > Finally reach the current expansion content > notice is more of the same > Max level > Run the same dungeons you been running > keep on and on > Do heroic modes Which ironically is the same but with a bit more hp and damage > continue until you gear > God help you finding a raiding guild > Raid once a week lol we even cap your fun > Same > more of the same > New patch you work is useless get back to the grind.

Pvp chain > Go pvp > Get your ass handled to you regardless of skill level by people with way better gear > repeat until you gear > do the same to people who did it to you before > Go arena/rated bgs > Get your ass handled to you by people in better gear until you down rank enough to fight people with your gear > Lol cap weakly currency again and again and again until you can finally compete to rank yourself up.

[Limbolein]

Very true, Gervase. The funny thing is, a lot of people I play with have actually quit playing GW2 after reaching 80 and full exotic. The need to get better gear/more skills is what keeps many people happy with a game although most of them claim they hate grinding and just want to PvP. One must realize that in GW2 you can always improve above lvl 80 and exotic gear, just not by getting better gear or more powerful abilities.

[Mootillay]

The very point of a relatively easy level cap and lack of gear grind is to keep the focus off of such things.  They don't want time spent playing to equate to in-game ability.  This also has the added affect of(well I would hope anyway) disillusioning this generation's gamers with playing for time/reward instead of to enjoy the game.  In theory, you should be able to sit down and play gw2 doing just about anything with minimal time investment and enjoy it.  That said, having a full set of exotics and max trait points *does* make a difference, but GW2 brings us much closer to a game where such things are irrelevant than anything that's come before it.

I spent a year playing LOTRO where you had to invest a considerable amount of time leveling up your character, maximizing traits and acquiring gear.  It was an awful, tedious grind process that frankly, wasn't all that fun.. but if you didn't do it, you didn't get to experience the end game which was limited, but quite a bit more fun than the process leading up to it.

[omar316]

Very good arguments. And I do in fact agree with most points.

But there I feel that the combat or the drive to PvP is also very pigeon-holed into specific rock paper scissors builds.

My take:
The limited skills and abilities however much you learn/speak off cannot get you out of every spot.
Using the WoW ranger, using aprox 20 abilities, he has a rotation for say run and gun, tank and kill and possibly CC and escape.
3 different types of gameplay using a single weapon. Maybe more if he uses a different weapon set.

Same issue I find here on my warrior. I do generally well using my GS, Axe/shield build. But get completely shut down with 2 ranged. If it is 1 the fight drags on long enough to get another in, likewise, I get another team mate to help. But my point is I am still completely shut down. Best part is it is still quite easy to blow all your abilities and put them into CD when you get FF by 2 people.

Again there is a design issue of CC. I clear 3 CC and put 4 abilities on CD. And then get snared again lol. Again 2 on 1/2. Its like the class itself is being forced to play a certain style instead of us choosing what we want to do at any given time.

I guess this loss of choice comes at the cost of losing the trinity setup and forcing the combat to revolve around specific abilities.

[Limbolein]

The lack of CC immunities is also a great benefit for the warrior. You can be as annoying to them as they are to you if you want to, having 5+ different disables plus several snares that also immobilize if you trait for that.

On the other hand we can still be relatively invulnerable to CC. We have access to 16 sec stability, several stun breakers, damage skills that break immobilize and possibly a snare/root breaker on a 16 sec cooldown (Healing Signet with Restorative Strength and Signet Mastery).

[Killyox]

Adalbit, on 29 October 2012 - 04:57 AM, said:

I have been playing this game for 3-4 weeks so far. I have tried sPvP and WvW a few times on my warr. Maybe I just need to play more, but this games PvP seems very weak. I was an arena player on WoW for a very long time and that took a lot of skill, timing, knowing when enemy CD's are over and even trickery. This game it seems like you do maybe 4 skills and roll once or twice during a fight.

Am I being to rough or just dumb? I got the game because I love PvP and I dont want to quit already.

Thanks

IF you think arena in wow required more skill then you have funny definition of "skill requirement".

[Shinimas]

Killyox, on 08 November 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

IF you think arena in wow required more skill then you have funny definition of "skill requirement".

Are you one of those guys that never played it or got a high rank and just hate WoW, because it's fashionable?

[Killyox]

Shinimas, on 08 November 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

Are you one of those guys that never played it or got a high rank and just hate WoW, because it's fashionable?

I did play it actually and i had very high rating (tbc times when rating gains weren't as easy as now. You could get 1 rating for win vs scrubs and lose 100 for lose). Played warlock. I gave up on wow 2 years ago definitely. Tried it recently but couldnt take it on for more than 5 minutes.

BTW I don't "hate" wow. It's pretty good game but as someone who played it from day 1 and has like 300 days played i just grew tired of it. All things considered i still think GW2 requires more skill than wow.

For me GW2's pvp is also a lot more fresh than previous MMOs.

Edited by Killyox, 08 November 2012 - 12:22 PM.

[vanatos]

Well here is the general different types of 'pvp' in gaming.

WoW pvp is characterised by extreme rote memorization of many class abilities and working around them, extreme reliance on gear and kiting,

Dark souls pvp is characterised by a limited amount of moves based on weapon (ok and magic), movement-spacing and reacting/baiting to weapon moves speed and reach.

street fighter is charactersed by movement-spacing and reacting/baiting to fighters punch/kick move-speed and reach.

Note that of the 3, dark souls and street fighter are simply better in terms of a 'system of pvp in a game' yet they are not characterised by a large number of 'abilities' per character.
In fact, if you consider the 'ranks' of each spell as a counterpart to the 'ranks of punch and kick' one could easily argue street fighter characters often have, at most, 4-6 skill abilities, this is just food for thought on what exactly we want in a 'skill-based pvp game'.

I agree that wow arena takes some skill (me being a druid and gotten to 2500+ before), but it is differentiated more on time and effort, learning the large amount of class abilities and therefore working around them, and gearing up.

If you liked wow arena, you should also like Gw2, because they are very similar, there are cripple moves, like a warriors hamstring, there are stuns etc.
The only real difference is the introduction of dodge and block, which i love because, apart from anything, it is just subconsciously more engaging as a natural part of combat and is a mechanism whereby you can avoid any ability, this allows 'baiting'.

Quote

The limited skills and abilities however much you learn/speak off cannot get you out of every spot.
Using the WoW ranger, using aprox 20 abilities, he has a rotation for say run and gun, tank and kill and possibly CC and escape.
3 different types of gameplay using a single weapon. Maybe more if he uses a different weapon set.

Same issue I find here on my warrior. I do generally well using my GS, Axe/shield build. But get completely shut down with 2 ranged. If it is 1 the fight drags on long enough to get another in, likewise, I get another team mate to help. But my point is I am still completely shut down. Best part is it is still quite easy to blow all your abilities and put them into CD when you get FF by 2 people.

Again there is a design issue of CC. I clear 3 CC and put 4 abilities on CD. And then get snared again lol. Again 2 on 1/2. Its like the class itself is being forced to play a certain style instead of us choosing what we want to do at any given time.

I play a warrior as main in gw2, and i've never felt cc to be that huge like in WoW, in fact if you play greatsword (as you do) you should be traiting for movement skills break any and all snares, which makes you virtually un-snarable, and only stunnable, and stuns for some reason feel very scarce.

I can understand your frustration, since i used to play a druid in WoW (hello polymorph escape all snares), but keep in mind you played a literal kiting class in WoW, while you are now playing a melee class in GW2, so of course you should not be able to kite people easily.

If you want a class with large amount of escape mechanisms, consider a thief, but the flipside is, of course, that you are now squishy.

Edited by vanatos, 09 November 2012 - 01:54 PM.

[UssjTrunks]

Limbolein, on 07 November 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

Very true, Gervase. The funny thing is, a lot of people I play with have actually quit playing GW2 after reaching 80 and full exotic. The need to get better gear/more skills is what keeps many people happy with a game although most of them claim they hate grinding and just want to PvP. One must realize that in GW2 you can always improve above lvl 80 and exotic gear, just not by getting better gear or more powerful abilities.

Gear grind doesn't keep people happy, it keeps them paying a subscription fee.

It's totally pointless in a game with no sub.

Edited by UssjTrunks, 10 November 2012 - 01:19 AM.

[HitoriJQ]

I'm in the same boat as you OP. I love PVP in many other MMOs I've played, but for the life of me I can not get into in this game.

[Millimidget]

UssjTrunks, on 10 November 2012 - 01:19 AM, said:

Gear grind doesn't keep people happy, it keeps them paying a subscription fee.

It's totally pointless in a game with no sub.

The event grind, if it was not RNG based, would be much more profitable, especially if they kept previous event items on sale through the cash shop after the event concluded, even if those items were marked at a slightly increased rate.

Edited by Millimidget, 21 December 2012 - 08:36 AM.