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Limited Skills?

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#121 Valkaire

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 09:11 AM

View PostXPhiler, on 02 November 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:

please do share how combat itself has been dumbed down with every patch!
as for difficulty you're right on one count, in one patch for whatever reason they decided to scale you down to area+1 rather then same level as area. but again, one time event defintiely not something that happened in every patch!

I'm fairly certain the reason they did that was because there were outcries on the forums about how it was anti-fun that they could die so easily in a lower leveled zone. One of the other changes they tried to implement but removed was mobs running out of hurtful aoes. This however, was restrictive of those classes who enjoyed using weapons with ground based aoes (coughstaffelecough). This lead to another outcry on the forums and was removed for the next BWE. IMO, I think the actual mob fighting in PvE is challenging enough but they just need to work on the difficulty system they have in place for the more organized content. Finding a balance between mechanics and health pool.

Edited by Valkaire, 02 November 2012 - 09:14 AM.


#122 Fenice_86

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 09:25 AM

I agree with the OP, the possibility to choose my weapon skills from a small poll (like for utilities) would bring enough customization for me.

For example if i would go REAL full Support i could pick, out of let's say 15-20 weapon's skill, the 5 that makes support only and not 1 dmg, 1 heal, 1 aoe and 2 cc/support i would pick all 5 support!
Same thing if i would go REAL full DPS or full HEAL...
The chance to have 1-2 alternatives for each weapon slot would be great and not too hard to do (they basically just do the same stuff they did with utilities).
You "create" 5 DPS skills, 5 healing skills, 5 CC skills, 5 Support skills and than you allow "me" (us) to choose which one to put in the weapon's bar.

That's it

Edited by Fenice_86, 02 November 2012 - 09:26 AM.


#123 Lordkrall

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 09:27 AM

View PostFenice_86, on 02 November 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

I agree with the OP, the possibility to choose my weapon skills from a small pull (like for utilities) would bring enough customization for me.

For example if i would go REAL full Support i could pick, out of let's say 15-20 weapon's skill, the 5 that makes support only and not 1 dmg, 1 heal, 1 aoe and 2 cc/support i would pick all 5 support!
Same thing if i would go REAL full DPS or full HEAL...
The chance to have 1-2 alternatives for each weapon slot would be great and not too hard to do (they basically just do the same stuff they did with utilities).
You "create" 5 DPS skills, 5 healing skills, 5 CC skills, 5 Support skills and you allow "me" (us) to choose which one to put in the weapon's bar.

That's it

Which is exactly what they don't want in this game.
They want everyone to be able to do the same things (more or less) in every situation.
They don't want to force people to be "full healers" or "full dps:ers". Which will happen if it is possible.

Edited by Lordkrall, 02 November 2012 - 09:27 AM.


#124 Fenice_86

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 09:33 AM

View PostLordkrall, on 02 November 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

Which is exactly what they don't want in this game.
They want everyone to be able to do the same things (more or less) in every situation.
They don't want to force people to be "full healers" or "full dps:ers". Which will happen if it is possible.

Yep maybe u'r right...
they removed the fact we were being forced by other players to run what was needed to be top efficient,
now they directly force us all to do what they want to xD

Afterall it's THEIR game, not our game...

Fair enough!

#125 XPhiler

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 09:37 AM

View PostFenice_86, on 02 November 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

I agree with the OP, the possibility to choose my weapon skills from a small poll (like for utilities) would bring enough customization for me.

For example if i would go REAL full Support i could pick, out of let's say 15-20 weapon's skill, the 5 that makes support only and not 1 dmg, 1 heal, 1 aoe and 2 cc/support i would pick all 5 support!
Same thing if i would go REAL full DPS or full HEAL...
The chance to have 1-2 alternatives for each weapon slot would be great and not too hard to do (they basically just do the same stuff they did with utilities).
You "create" 5 DPS skills, 5 healing skills, 5 CC skills, 5 Support skills and than you allow "me" (us) to choose which one to put in the weapon's bar.

That's it

That would however destroy one of the pillars of this game and thats the part that all classes are flexable enough to play in every role. Thing is people love to min max, if you let them they'll just go all out in the role they like. Full dps, full support, full tanking etc.. and you'll get the trinity back. That will lead to the problems the game was specifically designed to remove. Things like Looking for Tank, DPS, Support when running dungeons. People being refused a spot because they're not running the best build the party leader approves of. etc..

Like this you get the best of both world. You choose the weapon that is more suited at your play style but at the same time you cant lock yourself in that play style and if you choose say dps and end up in a situation where the party could benefit from CC or Support, you can provide some even though not as effeciently as you can provide DPS!

View PostFenice_86, on 02 November 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

Yep maybe u'r right...
they removed the fact we were being forced by other players to run what was needed to be top efficient,
now they directly force us all to do what they want to xD

Afterall it's THEIR game, not our game...

Fair enough!

Thats not true at all ! you can still customize your character to be as effective as possible in your chosen role! if you like dps best you will choose your armor / traits that maximize the damage you do and not that increases the amount of healing or duration of your blinds / interrupts etc...  You'll also be most of the time playing DPS like you want to do ! you just can serve in the other roles as required!

#126 Fenice_86

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 09:41 AM

eheheh, that's why i play an Ele, i can't stay without so many skills at my disposal and just spamming 1-1-1-1-1 ^_^
maybe adding a 3rd weapon switch to all classes (and a 2nd to ele) would make all satisfied.

Bringing more versatility to "old skill system lovers" and being fine with those who like the new one :)

(i wanna underline that my posts want to be constructive, i'm actually having a lot of fun in GW2, i just dislike a few things but i guess it happens to everyone in everygame ;) )

#127 garethporlest22

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 09:54 AM

View PostXPhiler, on 02 November 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

Like this you get the best of both world. You choose the weapon that is more suited at your play style but at the same time you cant lock yourself in that play style and if you choose say dps and end up in a situation where the party could benefit from CC or Support, you can provide some even though not as effeciently as you can provide DPS!
Except you don't get the best of both worlds, you get a gimped jack of all trades.  They had the right idea but didn't execute it right.  It's kind of pointless being able to be a tankdpshealer all in one when you can't do either of those things well, but are just merely able to do them and if you do want to do that, at least on warrior you're stuck using one trait setup the entire time.  Because to be any sort of supportive (healing wise) help, you need to trait Vitality.   If you want to do CC you have a few more options but you have to use Hammer/Mace and shield too I guess.  If you want to tank, well I wouldn't bother because that requires a trait line, a shield and the use of useless skills (like Endure Pain which should have a much shorter recharge in PvE).

So look at that, you end up having to get stuck into a stickler build anyways..one that can't change on the fly.

There is a fix for this though, a fix where you wouldn't be a gimped jack of all trades but an actual useful jack of all trades.  Remember how attribute points used to cost in Guild Wars? Then they changed it and made that game much better.   Time to split PvE and PvP in this game, make it possible so you can change trait points anywhere you want in the PvE world (outside of combat of course) and then that will really liven things up.  Probably cheap up the difficulty though but that's another conversation.  

Splitting PvE from PvP will make it so they can take useless skills like Endure Pain, and give them a 30-45 second recharge instead of a 90 second recharge for something that lasts 5 seconds and prevents 3 physical hits and no protection against DoT.  Granted that's still just as useless but that's because of other things.  Defy Pain was a beautiful skill in Guild Wars after their tweaks, in this game it's something that only activates if you have it traited, at 20% health and is also on a recharge that's too long.

Anet I can't believe I'm saying this but follow what the developers of D3 have been saying their past 2 patches.  They want you to have fun being overpowered.  That's something you should be aiming for in the non dungeon PvE part of this world.  I'm not saying I don't cut down monsters left and right now, I do.  But if I could do that tenfold I'd be having much more fun with the combat.  The monsters are going to die anyways, may as well make it fun.

Edited by garethporlest22, 02 November 2012 - 09:55 AM.


#128 XPhiler

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 10:05 AM

View PostFenice_86, on 02 November 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

eheheh, that's why i play an Ele, i can't stay without so many skills at my disposal and just spamming 1-1-1-1-1 ^_^
maybe adding a 3rd weapon switch to all classes (and a 2nd to ele) would make all satisfied.

Bringing more versatility to "old skill system lovers" and being fine with those who like the new one :)

(i wanna underline that my posts want to be constructive, i'm actually having a lot of fun in GW2, i just dislike a few things but i guess it happens to everyone in everygame ;) )

Its true that 1 is very useful for any dps but mind you some of the other skills might make 1 more effective too!

assuming since you're a dps you focus mainly on fire attunement
with a staff

1 on its own does more damage lava front but lava front lasts for 5s rather than a one time deal so technically casting it before your 1 attack results in a net loss of 20 damage but an extra 296 damage for the next 4s

with a scepter:
its kinda straight foward not much complexity there

with the dagger
1 is the least damaging skill

You know, havent had much experiance with ele but now looking at the skills ele got a ton of skills but they dont synergize much with each other. Seems to me like the ele is more akin gw1 then the other classes. you get a ton of skills but they all do one specific function. but on the plus side it essentially provides what you're asking for already. All fire skills are just dps with just one of them being dps + a little evasion

#129 Arquenya

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 10:16 AM

View PostLordkrall, on 02 November 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

Which is exactly what they don't want in this game.
They want everyone to be able to do the same things (more or less) in every situation.
They don't want to force people to be "full healers" or "full dps:ers". Which will happen if it is possible.
The question, of course, is also if players actually want this or not.

Anyway, I can see that ANet just chose not to do it, regardless of the player's wishes.
Which doesn't take away that a little more choice would be nice. Just as specialization "forces" people into some roles, some weapon combinations are largely ignored as they're less effective than others. Giving each weapon more skills would counter that. At least making every weapon combination a viable alternative is the least they can do.

#130 Fenice_86

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 10:17 AM

View PostXPhiler, on 02 November 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

Its true that 1 is very useful for any dps but mind you some of the other skills might make 1 more effective too!

assuming since you're a dps you focus mainly on fire attunement
with a staff

1 on its own does more damage lava front but lava front lasts for 5s rather than a one time deal so technically casting it before your 1 attack results in a net loss of 20 damage but an extra 296 damage for the next 4s

with a scepter:
its kinda straight foward not much complexity there

with the dagger
1 is the least damaging skill

You know, havent had much experiance with ele but now looking at the skills ele got a ton of skills but they dont synergize much with each other. Seems to me like the ele is more akin gw1 then the other classes. you get a ton of skills but they all do one specific function. but on the plus side it essentially provides what you're asking for already. All fire skills are just dps with just one of them being dps + a little evasion

i'm a theory crafter born and an experimenting lover so i actually use 18 out of 20 skills i got in almost any fight :)
(by fight i dont mean lazy 1 vs 1, i mean 1 vs 5-7)

i try to get out always the best from what they give me, maybe that's why i'm not very pleased, i always want more! ;)

well, let's try to not go offtopic with ele talking (maybe we can do via PM if you want to ;) )

i believe soon or later they will must add something to the skill system anyway, this cant last for more than 6 months without any improvement imho!!
ppl will become bored as time goes by... playing from lvl 10 to *insert_number_of_hours_played* with always the same 5 skills (let's say 20-30 if you like to always change weapon + reset traits) it unacceptable from my point of view.

It doesnt matter if it comes from new classes, new races, new weapons... they will need to add new skill!
(especially elites first of all, healing ones right after and others following...)

#131 Passive Aggressive

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 10:20 AM

I love it.  Weapons should FEEL different.  They shouldn't just be empty stat sticks that don't mean anything.  Switching your weapons feels like a totally different class in some cases.  Very cool system. I guess I can understand why some people don't like it but another thing I am happy about is not having to key bind 120 skills.

Anyway in other games it always felt silly to me that someone would pick up an axe and in most cases do basically the same thing he did with his sword.  Or that casters got the short end of the stick and were stuck with a wand or a staff that pretty much did nothing at all but look pretty.

#132 XPhiler

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 10:22 AM

View Postgarethporlest22, on 02 November 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

Except you don't get the best of both worlds, you get a gimped jack of all trades.  They had the right idea but didn't execute it right.  It's kind of pointless being able to be a tankdpshealer all in one when you can't do either of those things well, but are just merely able to do them and if you do want to do that, at least on warrior you're stuck using one trait setup the entire time.  Because to be any sort of supportive (healing wise) help, you need to trait Vitality.   If you want to do CC you have a few more options but you have to use Hammer/Mace and shield too I guess.  If you want to tank, well I wouldn't bother because that requires a trait line, a shield and the use of useless skills (like Endure Pain which should have a much shorter recharge in PvE).

So look at that, you end up having to get stuck into a stickler build anyways..one that can't change on the fly.

There is a fix for this though, a fix where you wouldn't be a gimped jack of all trades but an actual useful jack of all trades.  Remember how attribute points used to cost in Guild Wars? Then they changed it and made that game much better.   Time to split PvE and PvP in this game, make it possible so you can change trait points anywhere you want in the PvE world (outside of combat of course) and then that will really liven things up.  Probably cheap up the difficulty though but that's another conversation.  

Splitting PvE from PvP will make it so they can take useless skills like Endure Pain, and give them a 30-45 second recharge instead of a 90 second recharge for something that lasts 5 seconds and prevents 3 physical hits and no protection against DoT.  Granted that's still just as useless but that's because of other things.  Defy Pain was a beautiful skill in Guild Wars after their tweaks, in this game it's something that only activates if you have it traited, at 20% health and is also on a recharge that's too long.

Anet I can't believe I'm saying this but follow what the developers of D3 have been saying their past 2 patches.  They want you to have fun being overpowered.  That's something you should be aiming for in the non dungeon PvE part of this world.  I'm not saying I don't cut down monsters left and right now, I do.  But if I could do that tenfold I'd be having much more fun with the combat.  The monsters are going to die anyways, may as well make it fun.

Focusing on the PVE I think you need to see this in 2 seperate situations, in one scenario you're alone, in the other you're in a group. If you're in a group you can focus on one single role if you want. if you're solo you'll need to do all of the roles at once. You're right, you cant be an all out tank but you dont need to be, you need to survive long enough to kill your enemy! thats true in every game. if you're in a tough engagement (easy engagement are a none issue irispective of role) and have no priest backing chances are you'll die before you can kill your enemies with a tank. A game would be estremely boring if you could build a tank that could stay alive indefintiely in any engagement after all.

I've been in the stituation a few times, I just end up in fights which are too big for me (either would be doing a regular fight and a patrol walks in on me, A group of enemies spawns while I engaged in a fight or wolves would be involved when there summon more wolves then I can interrupt)  At some point it would become obvious I have no chance of killing them faster then they kill me at which point I change my playstyle. I will then switch to killing them all slowely while I keep myself alive. with my necro that means bleed+regen on me and then mass blinds / mass fear / death shroud or even lich form (to increase a bit my survivability). Sometimes if you do it right it works wonders! Just this week i was in frostgorge sound. I went into the first fight which was a veteran with 2 adds. Got them but not before a patrol walked on me got them and as soon as i finshed the veteran and adds respawn while I only had 700ish heath left. I won. And its a very statisfying feeling. So my point is you need to switch playstyles on the fly, min maxing stats isnt going to cut ! I couldnt have done it here even if I could change numbers during a fight!

its not a gimped jack of all trades at all! When you need to tank, you dont need to tank indefintiley, you need to survive for 20s until your heal comes out of cooldown! and that generally means avoiding a few 10 or so attacks

#133 Viroid

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 10:34 AM

View PostArquenya, on 02 November 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

Giving each weapon more skills would counter that. At least making every weapon combination a viable alternative is the least they can do.

Anyway, most players would take the most effective weapon skills, so it wont change anything...mostly the one with the highest dps.
And for most classes i know, every weapon and weapon combination has its right to exist. Sure, not every weapon is useful in every situation, but that does not make them worse.

I am happy with the number of skills at the moment, and i am very sure, ANet will add some more weapons , Utilities/Skills with an expansion.

#134 XPhiler

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 10:43 AM

View PostFenice_86, on 02 November 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

i'm a theory crafter born and an experimenting lover so i actually use 18 out of 20 skills i got in almost any fight :)
(by fight i dont mean lazy 1 vs 1, i mean 1 vs 5-7)

i try to get out always the best from what they give me, maybe that's why i'm not very pleased, i always want more! ;)

well, let's try to not go offtopic with ele talking (maybe we can do via PM if you want to ;) )

i believe soon or later they will must add something to the skill system anyway, this cant last for more than 6 months without any improvement imho!!
ppl will become bored as time goes by... playing from lvl 10 to *insert_number_of_hours_played* with always the same 5 skills (let's say 20-30 if you like to always change weapon + reset traits) it unacceptable from my point of view.

It doesnt matter if it comes from new classes, new races, new weapons... they will need to add new skill!
(especially elites first of all, healing ones right after and others following...)

I am sure in time they'll add more weapons and thus new skills. but I dont agree with people becoming bored using the same skills. Apart from gw1 thats what happens in every mmo at endgame you'll always be using the same skills over and over again!

Also while many games have a lot more skills then gw2 there are also games that have far less. Allods online for example has 21 skills in all. But every skills has 3 ranks that each cost a skill point that you get when leveling up meaning if you want max your best skills you'll end up with just 12 skills you can use!
its not a super sucessful game but skill lots of people play it! whats more, honestly never heard anyone complain that its too restrictive or limited!

If you get bored or not depends on what you enjoy and how you play at the end of the day! I will be honest one of my fears before playing gw2 was that 10 weapons skills would get boring fast, but at least with my necro those 10 weapon skills allow for such diverse play styles that honestly many combat situations are totally differnt. I played games like everquest 2 in which you can have 1/2 your screen covered in skills and i was always using the same skills in the same sequence. (didnt play it a lot to be fair.. but i never felt I needed to change rotation so to speak). I dont know how to best explain it... in most MMOs I always think in terms of which skills would give me the best advantage as in which skill sequence does the most damage. In gw2 on the other hand I am most of the time more thinking along the lines of which skills would best fit the current situation so to speak!

#135 Feathermoore

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:13 PM

View PostPassive Aggressive, on 02 November 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

I love it.  Weapons should FEEL different.  They shouldn't just be empty stat sticks that don't mean anything.  Switching your weapons feels like a totally different class in some cases.  Very cool system. I guess I can understand why some people don't like it but another thing I am happy about is not having to key bind 120 skills.


Weapons in GW1 felt different. Having a locked bar isn't necessary for this effect. I don't think anyone playing GW2 wants there to be a huge number of spells available in combat.


View PostValkaire, on 02 November 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

IMO, I think the actual mob fighting in PvE is challenging enough but they just need to work on the difficulty system they have in place for the more organized content. Finding a balance between mechanics and health pool.

As a lvl 22 dd/staff necro I am perfectly capable of soloing 8 level 26 mobs at once. Please note that I have almost no traits, have never bought armor, have yet to unlock my elite, and rarely am downed. If the mobs are ranged or have a hard to notice immobilize, this drops down to 5ish. Only when I pull this many mobs do I actually have to pay attention, and even then the skill rotation is incredibly simple ignoring agro breaking or additional spawns.

Open world PvE is easy. The hardest part has been finding areas that I can pull 8 mobs and not have the agro break on some of them or have them randomly turn invincible.

Edited by Feathermoore, 02 November 2012 - 11:15 PM.

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