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Limited Skills?

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#31 kokoman90

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 12:48 PM

Yes it makes the game very limited. There are no group builds/ player builds like it used to be in GW1. In GW1 there was specific group build and specific player build. And in general, all the PvP system in GW2 is not invested at all.

#32 Fatalis

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 12:52 PM

While there were many more skills in GW1, you can argue that the number of effective builds is lower.

In GW1, there were certain cookie-cutters that everyone used, and pretty much everything else was ignored.

For example, if you took 8 random skills in GW1, it's likely the build would be terrible.

However if you took two random weapons, and random utilities and elites for a certain class in GW2, while it likely wouldn't be that great, it would likely still be useable.

So while total number of builds has decreased, the number of effective builds has increased.

#33 Sandpit

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 01:43 PM

There were many more skills in GW1, problem was that most were useless junk.

I like the fewer skills philosophy but it does depend on a couple of things. There has to be good variety of skills for each class, and the skills have to be balanced, Currently there are some junk skills in GW2, but as the number of skills is low ANet have a better chance of balancing these later (still early days remember).

My only concern is why some professions don't get weapon swaps, I don't understand why my ele can't switch from staff to wand/focus; yes I know they have F1-F4 which is similar, but it seems inneccessarily limited. Also, why are there only two weapon sets to swap, that's a big hit to come down from GW1. I know the weapon swaps gives you effectively more skills available that GW1, but usually I swap weapons for access to one.situational skill which isn;t much of a compensation for no (weapon) skill bar flexibility. I would prefer more free weapon swaps, I think this would add more skill to the game while also keeping the new skill philosophy.

#34 DuskWolf

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 01:44 PM

I agree. There's limitations, and then you have something which feels more limited than God of War, and that's when you know that they've gone too far. There are literally a handful of utility skills, and many of the weapon skills feel really homogenised (similar ability with a different skin). And then some are just completely useless (like everything for the engineer).

When I look at what I can do in CO with dipping into vividly different powersets (of which are 29~), and each with over 40~ powers which are also different, I just feel really limited in GW2. GW1 was also great. And the fact of the matter is is that there are ways to help people not create nerfed characters without actually removing variety/novelty potential. Look at what CO does with archetypes and you'll see what I mean.

It's depressing.

#35 Alleji

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 01:53 PM

I think the issue here is in the number of weapons and in balancing them, rather than in being able to select skills.

The system would feel way better if weapons weren't designed "this is for DPS, this is for survival, and this one is for utility". If I want DPS, I'm going to pick a greatsword over a hammer, because hammers do stuns and greatswords do pewpew. But if they could both be talented and complemented with other skills to do almost the same DPS with a different style, the system would feel much less restrictive.

Another big problem is a horrible selection of elite skills. Each class has 3 elites (plus racial elites which are novelty garbage for 0-60 minutes of gameplay each. Reaper of Grenth? Really? Really??), one of which invariably sucks and the other probably sucks in EITHER PvP or PvE, leaving you with no choice for any given situation.

For example, Warrior: Juggernaut is garbage, banner is good for buffing groups, signet is far better for you personally. Want to maximize your own performance? Use signet. Doing a dungeon? Use banner. Doing DEs? Use signet (because who would buff the zerg, reducing your own ability to tag mobs?) Derp.

These two factors combined leave you with 3 skill slots to play with.

#36 Xsiriss

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 03:25 PM

I was thinking of something similar to what Fox said. Instead of being stuck to the exact same skills there should be a pool to choose from.

Another idea is that weapon skills are available on every weapon, but the type of weapon you wield determines range, damage, condition/boon duration and such (still a split between say offhand and main hand dagger skills for example). This way it stops some weapons being limited to either PvP or PvE.

#37 Arquenya

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 03:35 PM

Agree with the Op as well.

That they didin't want the chaos of 1,000s of GW skillbars and resulting balancing issues - I can imagine.

But at least a choice of 3 skills for each number on your weapon skillbar instead of having it all fixed and just a few 20 sec - 6 minute cooldown (!!) extra's on 6-10  would have been nice.

#38 Kymeric

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 03:38 PM

It's worth noting that often a single skill does a number of different things.  The most obvious are chain skills, which are really like three of GW1's Assassin skills, but with only one hotkey.

Then there are skills that can do a variety of things, and even more when traited.  For example, Mesmer's Temporal Curtain is GTAoE speed buff, GTAoE cripple, AoE pull, and can be traited to be a reflect wall.  In combination with other skills, because it creates a combo field, it can be used to remove conditions and grant retaliation.  It's really a half dozen skills with a shared cooldown and hotkey.

You only have 15 hotkeys, but you have a great deal of abilities within those.

I do agree, though, that weapons seem to be a little narrowly tied to a purpose.  People say to pick a weapon based on your play style, but the weapons seem less tied to "how I want to play" and "what's most effective for my current activity".  It's not just PvE/PvP.  There some weapons that you'd never use in a group boss fight and others you'd never use in leveling.  Then there's the one weapon for your profession that grants a speed boost but isn't really useful for general levelling, so everyone carries it around and goes through the hassle of switching just to travel.

Hopefully that will be fixed with the addition of more weapons over time.  It'd be nice to have several weapons to choose form for each major area of gameplay.

#39 blindude

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 03:41 PM

Swapping utilities with a p[retty big cooldown and also being able to trait weapons skills to do etnirely different effect would be welcome.
But i still find gw2 build system to be far more interesting than most(not all) standard mmos out there.

Edited by blindude, 29 October 2012 - 03:42 PM.


#40 Lastchime

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 03:46 PM

View PostProtoss, on 29 October 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

..allow us to change the location of the skills on our bar.

This 1000x.

  I don't have a problem with the limited skills, it does make for less apparent variety, but really is it variety if they are completely ineffective?

  I also kind of like knowing with just a glance at a character what half the deck of cards they are holding atm is.

  But really just let me move my own around, it just feels very clunk when I have auto-attack on 1, blocks on 2 and 4, facemelt on 3 and stabby mchex on 5.

#41 Arquenya

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 03:51 PM

View PostEphraimGlass, on 29 October 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

I happened to enjoy the diversity of skills that were available because they gave the game replay value and the sense that I was exploring uncharted territory.  (No, I didn't really think that I was the only player ever to walk down those paths, but since I was intentionally avoiding the meta builds that "everybody else" was playing, it felt that way.)

The supposed lack of viability of most of the skills wasn't really ANet's fault.  As Protoss said, for PvE, if you didn't mind the content taking a bit longer, there were countless builds.  The players became inflexible and mean-spirited, though.  It was an echo chamber insisting that only some builds were viable and ruthlessly ignoring players who didn't conform.
But well since GW2 is 95% single player or zerg, it doesn't really matter anyway.

And in GW you could still do a lot of things with friends or hench/heroes and try out and enjoy totally different setups - using your favourite weapon!

#42 Kyonshee

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 01:27 PM

View PostSaren, on 29 October 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:

I wasn't sure if other's felt the same way I did on the topic of limited skills. Mind you, when I say skills, I am referring to your skills on the left side of the interface or more commonly - your weapon skills. I researched the topic a little more online and found that it wasn't just me that thought there was just too few skills.

Instead of digging through thousands of posts here, I thought I would write a new post. I'm sure there is already something like this out there.

Coming from Guild Wars 1, I was expecting a some-what similar approach to the skill listing. Unfortunately, I was wrong. I feel disappointed to find I only have five skills for each different weapon(s) I use. I always enjoyed being able to change my "build" up once in a while and try something new. This is just not the case in GW2 anymore leaving me feeling almost bored of the same thing.

Am I alone on Guru about this topic?

GW1 had many skills but not as many viable "builds" as you'd think. Also, I think they kept enough of this element with the Utility skill slots. Changing those and perhaps your healing skill around can make all the difference in my chances of survival, utility or damage.

Also, weaponswitching. THere's a reason this is there, and even has traits affecting it. You can make wonderful combinations with all of this.

#43 Knuckledust13

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 11:26 PM

The skill system on GW2 is simply inferior to GW1 in every aspect. Of course there will be fanboys claiming the GW1 system was frustrating and there would be 3 viable builds, but they are simply guessing or didn't played GW1 at all. New builds were uploaded daily to the wiki and the meta farm, pvp and team structures changed on a very fast pace. They constantly rebalanced skills and they had different effects on PvE and PvP, which brought the balance to a whole new level and showed the developer team actually cared about the skill system.

Capturing skills was a game inside the game, you could get titled for doing so and it just felt rewarding being able to mess around with all your elite skills, which actually were meaningful and they were the core of builds.. on GW2 the ONLY elite skill that feels elite is the warrior signet. The rest are ridiculous, long CDs for no meaningful effect, useless transformations and the sort.

I played GW1 from release until 2011, and I can say for sure that I bought GW2 thinking " the Guild Wars style skill system will be AWESOME on a full fledged mmo", and then on the beta tests I was presented with 5 premade skills I would be stuck forever. Needless to say this was a huge letdown to any and all GW1 players.

TL;DR: skill system in GW1 is weak and needs a rework, it feels boring, clunky and odd since it is a Guild Wars game.

#44 Helexax

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 11:42 PM

Personally i like the system more than i did in GW1, fewer skills means it is easier to balance.

Overall there are still more profession specific abilities than most other MMOs.

#45 Krazzar

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 11:56 PM

View PostKnuckledust13, on 30 October 2012 - 11:26 PM, said:

Spoiler
TL;DR: skill system in GW1 is weak and needs a rework, it feels boring, clunky and odd since it is a Guild Wars game.

Finally you've said something that makes sense, but you're a few years late to the party.

The rest is gibberish, especially the bit about being stuck with 5 skills forever. I don't know if you ignore every tooltip, but you can swap weapons with the "~" key by default which means you have more skills than than at your disposal, not to mention skill chains that can be interchanged, but that was merely hyperbole to make an argument in the first place. If you really want more skills the ele has 15 on the weapon bar, but I know that's not the complaint. The only complaint is it isn't the convoluted GW1 system. What's funny is you ignore the actual complexity of the GW2 build system and instead make an exaggerated claim of being stuck to 5 skills. Look at the skill interactions, even without traits there are more options in GW2 than in GW1, then you add traits and that number grows exponentially.

The GW2 system is fundamentally more complex than GW1, but you can continue to ignore that to make a claim based on nostalgia.

Edited by Krazzar, 31 October 2012 - 12:10 AM.


#46 Solstice

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 12:29 AM

In my opinion, GW2’s skill system ends up in the same place but in a much better condition.

In the end, most of my GW1 builds were eventually compressed into a much smaller core. The reason being the majority were all built around an identical framework of 4 to 5 key skills, including the central elite, with the remaining, typically, three being flexed to the situation. For this reason, I ironically see little mechanical difference between GW1 and GW2’s weapon linked skills. However, I would argue GW2 has achieved far greater bar compression thanks to weapon switching or pseudo-alternatives and many skills having multiple uses.

GW1’s skill diversity in PvE was trivialised due to fundamental profession design, various profession overhauls and the implementation of the 7-hero update. The latter highlighting the ease of creating a universal 8-party team setup that could ‘roflstomp’ its way through the majority of PvE on normal and hard mode. It was only the extreme cases, speed clears, dungeon speed runs and solo-farming builds in group content that showed GW1’s skill diversity to full effect. But in my opinion that simply highlighted the inequalities and flaws of GW1’s skill system.

No doubt there were many players who loved the ‘buildwars’ aspect, but I am hard pressed not to believe there where many more who simply wanted the most effective build to get the job done. Or at least that was my experience from PuGs.

Edited by Solstice, 31 October 2012 - 12:31 AM.


#47 Feathermoore

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 01:03 AM

Support your statements with an argument or don't make them at all please.

"You're wrong!" is a worthless post. And if your post boils down to just saying that... you can figure it out from there.

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#48 Naglifar

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 01:42 AM

the only thing that bothers me about gw2 skill bars is the presence or absence of coherent synergy among weapons. Seriously there are certain weapons that are a million times better, and every now and then your pigeonholed into some shitty weapon (mesmer wand). Certain weapon bars are EXTREMELY BORING, while others have sooooo much potential versatility.

What bothers me the most is when a classes MOST BORING weapon is the MOST EFFECTIVE choice...sigh

#49 Ketingo Ketango

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 01:48 AM

View PostFlaming_Foxx, on 29 October 2012 - 05:23 AM, said:

They've done it this way for a lot of reasons.
Personally I would prefer it if they combined the systems a little bit. As in - Had your first 5 skills limited by your weapon, but had a pool of a few skills per weapon for you to pick, instead of just being assigned.

This really.

As a Guildwars1 player for around five years I do understand the initial frustration over the apparent lack of skills. Trust me, that hit me hard when I first played GW2, but like Foxx has said, on GW1 all I remember was being asked by groups to use a specific build; be it PvE or PvP groups. So effectively, your skills were limited anyway and you weren't the one choosing what to run! Don't get me wrong here, I LOVED experimenting with builds in PvE, but mainly PvP Alliance Battles. I had great fun trying out numerous upon numerous build variations. I do miss it greatly.

It takes a while to understand, but at least nobody feels discriminated here, except for the elitism that exists in groups that only want level 80's. Other than that, the meta builds don't really exist like they did in GW1 and it's probably down to the new GW2 system. Many builds can be made via the traits, so that makes up for it.

Edited by Ketingo Ketango, 31 October 2012 - 01:49 AM.


#50 Eliirae

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 01:50 AM

By a "similar approach to GW1" do you mean hundreds of skills but only 8 worth using?  100s of skills and 5 useful ones is the exact same thing as 5 skills and 5 useful ones.

#51 stormofstatic

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 03:03 AM

i ran so many builds as a ranger in gw1 i dare u to make as many in gw2 as a ranger

pet barrage
thumper
55hp
SoS
conjour flame kindle arrow dual shot
spirit way or w/e it was called back in the day all ranger teams ftw :P
spike ranger
pure runner for those drok runs and citadle
pure beast master did well in RA
spear ranger
my personal fave just to anoy teams with no monks was posion arrow pindown hunter shot whirling def troll
trapper
when i was new i picked ranger/mes ran interupt also with blackout
our spirits had more of an impact in gw1 also EoE renewal before the nerf also winter for vs fire targets
i even ran a ele tank build on my ranger just to vanquish with hench those dam fire imps near ToA grrr still can hear them

even if they just let us pick any of the 25 weapons skill for any weapon would be better than what it is now and traits are so lackluster

Edited by stormofstatic, 31 October 2012 - 03:09 AM.


#52 Krazzar

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 04:11 AM

View Poststormofstatic, on 31 October 2012 - 03:03 AM, said:

Spoiler

This really highlights the main problem, there is no equivilent scale.  You can't say more pure choices of skills are better unless all other things are held equal. Unfortunately, nearly nothing is equal between the combat and build systems of GW1 and GW2. Quite simply the GW1 build system cannot operate in GW2, they are fundamentally different in design. GW1's build system created an extremely specific solution to a very specific set of problems. You picked the keys to open all the locks, when the time came you just used the right key. With GW2 there is a major shift, a return to the principle that each character should have two roles (as hinted at by the dual professions in GW1) to be more balanced. Characters in GW2 have far more versatility because you cannot simply prepare for every single situation or handle every situation perfectly as a single player. That is the second major shift, group dynamics moved from each player filling a specific role to roles being split between multiple players. To get the same effect you need multiple players contributing to the same combat activity.

I'm not too familiar with ranger since I only leveled one to 80 and haven't played him since, but each profession has numerous build options depending on multiple criteria. Generally players must consider ranged versus melee and splits, the activity focus (what general things you will do), everything in the hero panel, complimentary traits and their effects, and stat points. There are less pure options per category but far more categories of choice. You could have 1 category with 100 options or 5 categories with 20 choices each and you would actually have far more choices (exponentially more choices). The number of combinations you can make by simply switching major traits in one line is rather high at 24 (you listed about 12 builds). Not only are there numerous options, but each option is workable, whereas in GW1 a large segment of builds were quite simply infeasible. You could load up 7 signets of capture and shield of judgement on your bar (which actually happened), but that doesn't make it a workable build, it's not a valid choice. That's an extreme example, but there are plenty of builds some people thought were legitimate that quite simply were terrible and they never really knew, but that's another issue.

Unfortunately most people oversimplify the situation and set everything equal, which makes it a point of opinion instead of holistically looking at the actual situation. Opinions don't hold much weight in actual analysis.

#53 prince vingador

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 04:18 AM

i agree with the op,i feel im limited with my choices...i come from gw ,so its a huge diference i wish they add more skills

#54 Uhhsam

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 05:09 AM

I wish it was a different set of 5 for each combination, so having a sword + shield was 5 different skills than sword + focus.  Thieves are already partway there.

#55 vann7

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 08:25 AM

View PostProtoss, on 29 October 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

Aye, both systems have flaws. That's why a compromise would have been fantastic. Clearly we should have less skills that we did in GW1, but it's an absolute shame that we got ONLY this much skills.
Once again, that's what I love about D3 - you have a few basic skills, which you can then manipulate with runes. You have the basic skill that is strong enough that you should be able to win the game with it alone and then you have runes, which give the skill some flavour. Quite nice example of a system with limited options, but still much more interesting than GW2's.

Mm no.. Only Gw2 system is plain wrong.. Gw1 system is amazing.. you could discover new ways of combat completely new ..even after years playing the game. you had a CHOICE of the skills you wanted to use. and you were not Forced to use the same skills again and again. Lazy people also could just run in an average build good for all.. so it was not necessary to change your skills..unless you were doing Pro modes. In  GW2 your forced to play the way they want.  In GW2 your class is a jack of all trades and master on nothing. You can heal ,you can dps ,you can tank ,you can do it all.. that ruins the Character identity .. and the immersion.  RAngers for example use great swords and Axes.. I didn't chosen a Ranger to use Swords or axes.. and simply wanted to be a dam ranger. not a warrior with great swords.. the Game design is broken because allows classes to used weapons that makes no sense for it.. Like mesmer with guns and Rangers with Greatswords. non sense.  At times feels that the developers of GW2 are not the same of GW1.. because the design of the game is full of design flaws ..that breaks the immersion of the game.. 4 legs Pets underwater combat .. white sharks pets.. perhaps in  the future they will add combat jets  or flying pigs.."just for fun".  But not following game logic.. break the immersion of the game and thats not fun.. you get bored fast when your attention is not in the game but instead on how artificial feels your class.  Instead of adding more weapons to each Class.. they should REMOVE the ones that do not belong to your class and add much more variety of skills for your class and allow the option to choose which skills you want.. For the only reason Arenanet made the skills /combat system so simple is for lazyness..because is easier FOR THEM.. to develop the game. at the expense of making the game incredibly Boring.  And the problem is not only limited skills ,but also limited functionality. Mesmers in GW2 do not interrupt ,Do not steal skills , Do not reverse damage as in GW1.  GW2 classes is many step backs of GW1 robust classes and skill and proffesion system. And seems arenanet have no plans to fix the game ..instead will continue adding weapons completely irrelevant to the class you have chosen. As a RAnger or as a Caster you should be able to have a wide range of skills on your chosen class. Gw2 only thing they did right was the graphics that are ok.. and the worlds.. everything else are badly designed from a lore point of view. but also its combat system too simplistic. It is as if the developers were more interested in adding "features" to the game as a checklist.. for advertising purpose.. regardless if they end with a completely different Guildwars game.  How amazing will have been Gw2 is they just do not try to reinvent the wheel and leave the things people most loved the way they are.. but with better graphics and only focus on add more things to the game that follows the game logic

#56 mazut

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 08:56 AM

All GW1 players are disappointed more or less, but we see the reasons behind that decision and I for one understand it. The deversity is put into traits this time. And when there are no traits that alter the skills directly, there are still many different builds.
Maybe one day if they find acceptable ballance, they may add changeble skills to the weapons, maybe, who knows?!

View PostProtoss, on 29 October 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

Once again, that's what I love about D3 - you have a few basic skills, which you can then manipulate with runes.

This is what I expected from traits, or at least some of the traits to do. And still they can implement such traits, or new skills.

Edited by mazut, 31 October 2012 - 08:56 AM.


#57 Kyonshee

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:30 AM

View PostKnuckledust13, on 30 October 2012 - 11:26 PM, said:

The skill system on GW2 is simply inferior to GW1 in every aspect. Of course there will be fanboys claiming the GW1 system was frustrating and there would be 3 viable builds, but they are simply guessing or didn't played GW1 at all. New builds were uploaded daily to the wiki and the meta farm, pvp and team structures changed on a very fast pace. They constantly rebalanced skills and they had different effects on PvE and PvP, which brought the balance to a whole new level and showed the developer team actually cared about the skill system.

Capturing skills was a game inside the game, you could get titled for doing so and it just felt rewarding being able to mess around with all your elite skills, which actually were meaningful and they were the core of builds.. on GW2 the ONLY elite skill that feels elite is the warrior signet. The rest are ridiculous, long CDs for no meaningful effect, useless transformations and the sort.

I played GW1 from release until 2011, and I can say for sure that I bought GW2 thinking " the Guild Wars style skill system will be AWESOME on a full fledged mmo", and then on the beta tests I was presented with 5 premade skills I would be stuck forever. Needless to say this was a huge letdown to any and all GW1 players.

TL;DR: skill system in GW1 is weak and needs a rework, it feels boring, clunky and odd since it is a Guild Wars game.

The warrior elite Signet is the most selfish Elite skill in his arsenal. "Useless transformations" Someone's ignoring Rampage's -4- interruption/knockdown/knockback skills here, not to mention the huge chunk of toughness and the stability it grants. It grants a whole new arsenal of skills. I thought you wanted more skills to use? And the banner actually buffs the entire party, and not just yourself. It also revives downed allies when summoned. Honestly, the signet is only worth it when solo-questing.

You've played GW1 for so long, and you're still having this selfish "it makes ME do more damage so it's the best skill" view?

The only thing I agree with you on here is the capturing of skills. That is one thing I would've loved to see in GW2, but can do without.

#58 EphraimGlass

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 11:08 AM

I was always pleasantly surprised in GW1 when I found a combination of skills off the beaten path that were nonetheless effective.  Granted, I was really only playing PvE, so the bar was relatively low.  Nonetheless, it was exciting to find new ways to do things.  Even if they weren't the best way or even better than other ways that I'd found, I enjoyed that aspect of the game.  In retrospect, the day that I discovered 7-hero meta-builds spoiled the game for me.  That was the dark side of having such an abundance of skills available - it was possible to meta-build a synergistic team of heroes that trivialized most of the content.

So how do I feel about GW2's system?  I'm ambivalent.  It has advantages and disadvantages over GW1's system.  At the moment, I think that it's a net positive.

The open world means that they haven't had to introduce heroes (yet) and that means that there are no full-party meta-builds (yet).  The game is sufficiently young that build wars aren't really an issue.  I foresee a possible future in which elite players have deconstructed the system and determined the "best possible" party configurations - maybe universal or maybe for specific dungeons.  If that happens, then the same poverty of builds will occur in GW2, despite the different system.

I've seen suggestions already that some people feel that this or that configuration for a particular profession is superiour / inferiour / boring / etc.  Initially, this would seem to be an early strike against the new system but I think it's not.  Why?  Because what I haven't seen is consensus about which configuration is superiour / inferiour / boring.  It appears to me that every weapon set, every trait line has its proponents and its detractors.  That, I think, is as it should be.  It highlights an important advantage of this system:  characters are customizable to a player's preferred style.  As long as this remains true and the community avoids forming a strict consensus about the inferiourity or superiourity of this or that configuration, then I think that the game will remain healthy.

Finally, two opinions about arguments that I've seen presented here.  One, GW2 is a new game and, while it's fair to make comparisons to GW1, remember this:  If the skill system were "identical" to the one in GW1, there would be a different group of people complaining just as vocally about how ArenaNet failed to innovate.  Two, I don't think it's fair to accuse ArenaNet of being lazy for creating a system that is easier for them to balance.  Observe their frequent and well-intentioned attempts to balance GW1's skills, even when it meant overhauling entire professions.  I'm pretty sure they never really achieved the intended balance but it wasn't for lack of trying.  The system just had too many components to effectively address.  It was intrinsically chaotic.  If the reduction in number of skills and the fact that they're always grouped together on a particular weapon means that it becomes possible for them to balance the game better, I endorse it.

#59 XPhiler

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 11:42 AM

Saying gw2 skill system is more limited then the gw1 skills system is wrong in my opinion. Gw1 skill system was only suprior in one way to the gw2 skills system in my humble opinion in that it allowed for an extra layer of strategy let me explain. Lets look at gw1 skill individually. I played mostly a necro in both so I will focus on that. Let me take a one skill from gw1 say: Death nova.

For those who might not know the necro skills this skill is cast on an ally and does damage and places poision condition to adjecent enemies when that ally dies. If I use this skill my obvious intention is to damage foes and spread poision around. I can achieve this effect just fine in gw2 using mark of blood and epidemic. The difference being in gw1 you had an extra step to worry about you had to cast this on an ally and hope that ally would die in the 30s window and that the ally was engaged in the right place which could be problematic with the AI. Of course you could use it just in time before a minion or an ally died giving you more control. In GW2 you still get the same power if not more, you can trigger this chain of effects exactly where you want it and it will go off the moment you really need it and not when faith dictates. So while you're getting less strategy in a way (since you dont need to worry on the conditions that start the skill effects) you're still getting all of the flexibility.

I could say the same of nearly 80% of the necro skills. In fact using my staff and axe+dagger combination I can recreate nearly all of those 80% of the necro skills from gw1 that can be emulated in gw2 and I have access to them all the time and not just 8 at a time which is a strenght the gw2 skill system has over gw1 in my view!

Details below but to summerize on my current necro build in gw2 with 10 weapons skills and 5 utitility skill, using 1 skill or a combination of  I can perfectly recreate not 15 but  56 gw1 necromancer skills.

If we Ignore conditions such as with the case of the death nova which effects only trigger if a target ally dies, I can recreate a further 36 gw1 necromancer skills!

What I am saying is essentially while I have just 15 skills to cast how I use those skills, in what combination and where I target them allows me to perfectly emulate (without trigger conditions) 92 gw1 necromancer skills! more then 10x the skills you'd have available when you go out with a build in gw1. Honestly can see why people would see the gw2 skill system limiting! Instead of having specific skills that do only a specific effect like gw1 (example: in gw1 blood of the master can only heal minions, Hexers Vigor heals just you and Order of the vampire heals only allies. In gw2 you have mark of blood that can heal any of these 3 depending on who's in its area of effect when its cast. Having this one skill instead of those 3 does it really limite you in any way? not at all in my opinion, does it limit your play style? nope! on the contrary in gw1 it was problematic to take all 3 skills so it might limit your play style, Hmm my allies are in trouble but oops I didnt have space to take the skill i need for that!)

Now the details:

Using this weapon combination + the the utility skills, blood fiend, blood is power, epidemtic , shadow fiend, lich form I can replicate the following gw1 necro skills:

Barbed Sigle,Barbs, Bitter Chill, Blood Bond, Blood Drinker, Blood Renewal, Blood of the agressor, Blood of the master, Chilblains, contagion, Corrupt enhancement, Dark pact, Deadly swarm, defile flesh, desecrate enhancements, enfeeble, enfeeble blood, enfeebling touch, evenom enchantments, faintheartedness, feast of the corrupt, gaze of contempt, hexer's vigor, holiday blues, life siphone, life transfer, meekness, order of undead, Order of the vampire, pain of disenchantement, Parasitic bond, plague sending, plague touch, poisoned heart, ravenous gaze, shadow of fear, signet of agony, signet of suffering, soul feast, strip enhancement, suffering, taste of death, tough of agony, unholy feast, vampiric bite, vampiric gaze, vampiric spirit, vampiric swarm, vampiric touch,vile miasma, vile touch, viruelence, wallow's bite,  weakened armor, well of blood, well of suffering,

If we ignore the conditions that trigger / additional cost a skills (such as happens if the target gets physical damage or cost such as if it happens you lose x energy) I can also replicate:
Cacophony, Dark aura, Death Nova, Deadly chill, defile enhancements, discord, feast of the dead, fetid ground, icy veins,insidious parasite, jaundiced gaze, life bane strike, MArk of pain, mark of subversion, necrosis, Opressive gaze, Order of apostasy, Order of pain, plague signet, putrid bile, putrid explosion, putrid flesh, Rend Enhancements, rip enhancements, Rising bile, shadow strike, shivers of dread, signet of sorrow, soul barbs, spinal shivers, spiteful spirit, spoil victor, taste of pain, toxic chill, ulcerous lungs, verata's sacrifice, well of ruin, withering aura

If we ignore the Energy portion of a gw1 skill which no longer applies anyway I can also replicate:

Angorodon's gaze, repears mark, signet of corruption,well of power

I personally dont see it, gw2 skill system is different then the gw1 skill system sure no doubt but limiting? no variety? its all there just done differently!

#60 Gremlin

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 12:01 PM

View PostSaren, on 29 October 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:

I wasn't sure if other's felt the same way I did on the topic of limited skills. Mind you, when I say skills, I am referring to your skills on the left side of the interface or more commonly - your weapon skills. I researched the topic a little more online and found that it wasn't just me that thought there was just too few skills.

Instead of digging through thousands of posts here, I thought I would write a new post. I'm sure there is already something like this out there.

Coming from Guild Wars 1, I was expecting a some-what similar approach to the skill listing. Unfortunately, I was wrong. I feel disappointed to find I only have five skills for each different weapon(s) I use. I always enjoyed being able to change my "build" up once in a while and try something new. This is just not the case in GW2 anymore leaving me feeling almost bored of the same thing.

Am I alone on Guru about this topic?

The number of skills between the 2 games isn't that different.
Some classes have a few more skills than their gw1 counterpart some a few more.

Now when I say that I am going by the skills available in Prophesies and just for your primary character.
If you add all the secondary class skills then yes gw1 has an overwhelming number of skills compared to gw2.
But we knew gw2 wasn't going to have secondary classes and though I would have liked multi class characters they did cause huge problems of balance.

An awfull lot of the skills in gw1 had similar effects and when expansions came out many skills were in fact the same skill under another name.
Some elites were a copy of a none elite skill but lower cost or longer effect.
Given the huge number of skills available many were seldom if ever used in builds.

We do have in gw2 more skills available to use at any given time.
GW1 had 8 gw 2 has a lot more than that and they can be changed when not in combat.
They can also be fine tuned using the trait system.

Overall we have fewer sklills but a more flexable system.
I do miss multi class and I do miss hunting down and capping skills but thats all.




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