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Limited Skills?

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#61 Lunacy Polish

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 12:43 PM

View PostKyonshee, on 31 October 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:



The warrior elite Signet is the most selfish Elite skill in his arsenal. "Useless transformations" Someone's ignoring Rampage's -4- interruption/knockdown/knockback skills here, not to mention the huge chunk of toughness and the stability it grants. It grants a whole new arsenal of skills. I thought you wanted more skills to use? And the banner actually buffs the entire party, and not just yourself. It also revives downed allies when summoned. Honestly, the signet is only worth it when solo-questing.

You've played GW1 for so long, and you're still having this selfish "it makes ME do more damage so it's the best skill" view?

I have to disagree withthis statement somewhat.  While the signet is fundamentally selfish, hitting Juggernaut leads to instant instinctusl focus fire as other players can see it so clearly.   A dead warrior contributes nothing and it is best to not encourage opposing players to be efficient.

The banner is an okay choice and looks good on paper, the problem is it is so fiddly you cannot really use it efficiently.  The other beef I have with it is I don't have time to pick it up and plant it etc. In such a mobile situation.  I do use it for certain PvE content where you can get away with it.

The signet is not very prominent in the eyes of other players and it gives a solid 30s of swiftness.  Often I have been able to escape to a keep and then come back and rez.  Dropping the banner would get a couple people back up sure but the 30 Guys who just rolled us would just kill us immediately.

#62 Valkaire

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 12:51 PM

View Postvann7, on 31 October 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

snip

First off, paragraphs are a wonderful thing. Secondly, how can mesmers not interrupt when they have traits like Halting Strike (Deal damage when interrupting a foe.), illusion of vulnerability (Inflict 5 seconds of vulnerability when you interrupt a foe.), Chaotic Interruption (Apply a random condition when you interrupt a foe.) and at least one more. You may not have "pure interrupt" skills like in GW1 but there are skills and conditions that replicate the same effect. You can argue that it's random but a good mesmer will know when/how to use diversion to it's best effect (that's the shatter skill that dazes aka interrupts targets btw). They also have a few other skills that cause daze. Just because they removed casting bars and the word interrupt from the skills does not mean it's not there. Oh, and reverse damage? I guess retaliation doesn't work like it says it does anymore. Neither does Feedback, Mimic or Phantasmal Defender. (All mesmer skills btw). There are also mesmer skills that deal with transfering conditions and the like.... pretty similar to mesmer skills that did the same to hexes don't you think?

As for Anet being lazy because they didn't put so many skills in. Did you know that they never wanted GW2 to be such an extreme case of build wars? That with each new campaign they added new skills, with virtually the same effect if not better, than older skills. I'll just leave this quote here if you don't believe it.

Quote

What the team felt it couldn’t do was implement its exciting new ideas in the game’s current campaign-every-six-months plan. While the promise of fresh standalone content twice a year sounds great to players, its requirements have actually caused Guild Wars to become somewhat convoluted from a game-design perspective.
“With each new campaign, we’ve been trying to introduce brand-new mechanics that change how the game plays. That’s led to the need for larger and larger tutorials to explain the new mechanics, and it’s made each campaign’s beginning experience much more bloated,” explains Flannum. “And since every new campaign was aiming to bring in new players—thus requiring bigger and bigger tutorials—plus aiming to give stuff to older players, the list of skills just kept growing.” Each campaign that’s been added to the Guild Wars world—three in total—has added another layer of design that, in the name of making things easier for new players, has actually ended up creating barriers to entry as they try to sort through multiple training areas, increasingly intricate tutorials, and an ever-ballooning list of skills.
“We’re battling against complexity,” Strain adds. “We don’t want to make complicated games. We want to make fun, easy-to-grasp games that are easy to get into and not frontloaded with complexity.” ~PC Gamer no. 161, May 2007

More skills does not always equal better, nor does it always equal more customization. The amount of skills in GW1 might have been fine for veterans that started in Prophecies or those who were wonderful theorycrafters and buildmakers but not everyone is like that. Me, using one of the best PvE hero teams (N/Rt healers, spirit spammers (offensive and defensive), illusion/inspiration and domination interrupt mesmers, discord spiker and a monk or ele based on what I needed) vs my brother who barely played and only used necro skills he thought "sounded cool/good" had a complete difference in gameplay experience. He found everything too hard and couldn't complete different missions because of his build. I should mention that I played guild wars a lot more than he did, considering he picked it up after I did and he just couldn't find his way around the skill system. There's a point when there's too much choice. GW1 hit that point and it made the game very beginner unfriendly, something Anet never wanted for their game.

As for classes having weapons that don't make sense.... What about in GW1, classes could use any weapon there. Any class, no matter if they were warrior or paragon, would have a spear and a shield during PvP. I saw countless bunny thumpers (Hammer wielding Ranger/Warrior combos) use a spear/shield to gain adrenaline before closing in. Now how does a ranger using a hammer make sense? Oh, because it has a warrior second profession? Then what about a spear and shield? Spears are for paragons! If you think rangers don't use swords I think you should watch LotR, or maybe read some Forgotten Realm books. Rangers have been using swords (1h and 2h) in the fantasy world for years. In fact, in Dungeons & Dragons, the game that pretty much started and created the initial guidelines for nearly all of todays classic fantasy RPGs, rangers could use any simple/martial weapons this includes: bows, axes, swords, polearms, maces, hammers, daggers, scythes (generalized weapon types, otherwise I'd be listing a LOT more). Hell, hunters, the WoW counterpart of rangers, could use polearms, staves, 2hand and 1handed swords, 2handed and 1handed axes, etc. A ranger isn't just an archer, it is a profession that is proficient with wilderness survival and tracking skills, protectors of nature, etc.  Are there any other weapons that supposedly break immersion? If so I'd be glad to give examples of their roots in other games for you.

If you compare a greatsword ranger to a greatsword warrior, the skills are completely different and fit their respected themes. If you don't want to use a greatsword on a ranger then don't, no one is forcing you to do it, you can go longbow/shortbow and sit ranged all day, it's still perfectly viable. But to say that just because the option of that weapon is available means that it breaks immersion (when it doesn't) when you don't have to use it is... asinine to say the least.

I'm not even going to go in to "a Caster you should be able to have a wide range of skills on your chosen class" because it would make me write another 5 paragraphs on the different styles you can play a necro, mesmer or ele as (ele itself can take up 3-4 paragraphs, you should play it some time). And as for no roles makes your character undefined? Maybe, but when I'm in a group with 3 other eles, a glass cannon, a support and a condition damage ele, I don't feel like just any old fish in the sea, I feel different. You are the person that has to create your role. Guild Wars 2 isn't like WoW, it doesn't make you feel special because it separates things into black, white and gray (tank, heals, dps). You get get to flesh out your characters style and role by yourself. You are the person that defines what you do in the group. I play a support/condition damage ele and I make a difference in my dungeon group, more than if I was just a DPS fighting for the top spot in damage, or a healer fighting for the top spot in heals. If you think that you need a specific role to be important, then by all means go and build glass cannon, tank or support and play how you want to play. The glory of no holy trinity means we aren't forced into anything.

Edited by Valkaire, 31 October 2012 - 12:57 PM.


#63 Hankey

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 01:08 PM

I'm kinda with the op, logged in to gw1 to catch 2 old halloween masks and i missed going through my old builds and loading them up a trying them out. Sure most skills may be useless but messing around with builds you'd come up with fun ones even though they weren't even close to the metas. I can't deny having less is way better for balance issues and there are the traits for variation, i guess it takes getting used to and i'm having some trouble doing just that. ;)

#64 Kyonshee

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 01:37 PM

View PostLunacy Polish, on 31 October 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

I have to disagree withthis statement somewhat.  While the signet is fundamentally selfish, hitting Juggernaut leads to instant instinctusl focus fire as other players can see it so clearly.   A dead warrior contributes nothing and it is best to not encourage opposing players to be efficient.

The banner is an okay choice and looks good on paper, the problem is it is so fiddly you cannot really use it efficiently.  The other beef I have with it is I don't have time to pick it up and plant it etc. In such a mobile situation.  I do use it for certain PvE content where you can get away with it.

The signet is not very prominent in the eyes of other players and it gives a solid 30s of swiftness.  Often I have been able to escape to a keep and then come back and rez.  Dropping the banner would get a couple people back up sure but the 30 Guys who just rolled us would just kill us immediately.

All very good points....however, all based on PvP. Also, the chances a ragtag crew of randoms being as organized as to focus on the Juggernaut warrior is relatively small...and even so, I would say it's their doom to focus one. They don't go down that easy, and mixed with it's plenty of CC, I'd say it's still a good choice for PVP.

#65 Knuckledust13

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 01:44 PM

I see people making alot of excuses for GW2 flawed, rushed and boring skill system. But you guys can theorize all you want, the skill system will remain flawed, rushed and boring until they rework it.

I remember on the first beta, the cry of frustration on the map chat about being locked to 5 skills forever if you wanted to keep using that weapon. That is a general feeling of the player base, you essentially are bound to 5 skills, then you can "freely choose" among 20 other skills for three utility slots. I won't even count the elite because I doubt people even use elite skills on their daily affairs, except for the warrior elite signet.

And whoever says GW2 skill system has more depth than GW1 must be playing a different game or never touched GW1 in their lives period. The build complexity on GW1 was huge, you had to choose 7 skills, a (meaningful) elite and then you had to distribute the attribute points to reflect both your build and weapon characteristics.

On GW2 the only "freedom" you have is choosing 3 utility skills and then the traits, most of which are bugged or don't display properly what they even do, lol. "Greatswords attacks heals you" by how much? only auto attacks or skills? has internal CD? procs also heal? is this increased by healing power? sigils affect it?

Seriously guy, stop thinking you are playing GW2 from the Manifesto. The launched game isn't that one they promised. Get realistic.

#66 Valkaire

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 02:21 PM

View PostKnuckledust13, on 31 October 2012 - 01:44 PM, said:

I see people making alot of excuses for GW2 flawed, rushed and boring skill system. But you guys can theorize all you want, the skill system will remain flawed, rushed and boring until they rework it.

I remember on the first beta, the cry of frustration on the map chat about being locked to 5 skills forever if you wanted to keep using that weapon. That is a general feeling of the player base, you essentially are bound to 5 skills, then you can "freely choose" among 20 other skills for three utility slots. I won't even count the elite because I doubt people even use elite skills on their daily affairs, except for the warrior elite signet.

And whoever says GW2 skill system has more depth than GW1 must be playing a different game or never touched GW1 in their lives period. The build complexity on GW1 was huge, you had to choose 7 skills, a (meaningful) elite and then you had to distribute the attribute points to reflect both your build and weapon characteristics.

On GW2 the only "freedom" you have is choosing 3 utility skills and then the traits, most of which are bugged or don't display properly what they even do, lol. "Greatswords attacks heals you" by how much? only auto attacks or skills? has internal CD? procs also heal? is this increased by healing power? sigils affect it?

Seriously guy, stop thinking you are playing GW2 from the Manifesto. The launched game isn't that one they promised. Get realistic.

Well, technically the auto attacks are skills that you have just set to auto cast so it would be all skills :P

I've never thought that GW2 had more complexity than GW1 and I'm pretty sure not everyone in this thread is saying that. However, it is true that they didn't want GW1 to be so complex (read quote in my previous post) and that is reflected in how they developed GW2. The system for GW1 got really new-user unfriendly in the later years and yes, there were a lot of skill combinations and builds, which were great if you were a veteran player or just a natural theorycrafter but it wasn't so great if you were someone just getting into the game. Especially so when the game started falling off and the norm became 3 heroes + 4 hench, then later just plain 7 heroes. At that time you didn't really get forced into groups where you'd be able to ask people questions or where they'd mentor you because they didn't want the run to be too difficult (which is how I learned a lot of base info about building and skill synergy at the start).

Personally, we lost the majority of this complexity of builds not because of the downsizing in amount of skills per profession but because they removed the second profession system completely. If second professions weren't available in GW1 the amount of builds would have been roughly the same as it is in GW2 imo. Monk would have had maybe 10-15 healing skills that would be good to use, estimate the same amount for smiting/prot and then maybe a mix of like 10 other skills if you make a cross attribute build. That's around 40-50 skills that people would use to make working, decent  end game builds (not just a symbol of wrath, bane signet, orison of healing kind of build). Compare that to GW2 where most professions have a choice between 4-5 different weapons (with more confirmed on the way) and 30 utility skills. Sure, you don't get as much skill customization as you did in GW1 but traits themselves are reminiscent of some skills in gw1 (reducing cooldown, increasing x, providing y on z, etc.) allowing for quite a bit of customization. Yes, I miss playing around with builds in GW1 (I remember playing around with A/R critical bleed build right after factions came out) but there's a reason why Anet decided to make the game this way. There's a reason why they didn't want to make it as complex as GW1 and frankly, I don't mind it. When I play GW2, even if I'm paired with someone of the same class using the same weapon as I am, we can work in completely different ways and both bring something different to the table just because of our trait set up. Basically, traits allow for a reasonable amount of customization in the game, and even though it's not as complex or you don't have as many skills as in GW1 they made it that way for a reason. I never expected another extreme build wars after I read that article in PC gamer about them dropping Utopia. Anet wanted to make a game that was easy for new players to pick up but still had a fair amount of customization and, imo, they did pretty well.

Edited by Valkaire, 31 October 2012 - 02:23 PM.


#67 XPhiler

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 03:01 PM

View PostKnuckledust13, on 31 October 2012 - 01:44 PM, said:

I see people making alot of excuses for GW2 flawed, rushed and boring skill system. But you guys can theorize all you want, the skill system will remain flawed, rushed and boring until they rework it.

I remember on the first beta, the cry of frustration on the map chat about being locked to 5 skills forever if you wanted to keep using that weapon. That is a general feeling of the player base, you essentially are bound to 5 skills, then you can "freely choose" among 20 other skills for three utility slots. I won't even count the elite because I doubt people even use elite skills on their daily affairs, except for the warrior elite signet.

And whoever says GW2 skill system has more depth than GW1 must be playing a different game or never touched GW1 in their lives period. The build complexity on GW1 was huge, you had to choose 7 skills, a (meaningful) elite and then you had to distribute the attribute points to reflect both your build and weapon characteristics.

On GW2 the only "freedom" you have is choosing 3 utility skills and then the traits, most of which are bugged or don't display properly what they even do, lol. "Greatswords attacks heals you" by how much? only auto attacks or skills? has internal CD? procs also heal? is this increased by healing power? sigils affect it?

Seriously guy, stop thinking you are playing GW2 from the Manifesto. The launched game isn't that one they promised. Get realistic.

We might be thinking we're playing the GW2 from the manifesto but you're definitely being far less objective they you're saying we are:

you keep saying locked in 5 skills forever where as Every single class has at least 15 skills available during a combat many have way more! my Necro has for example 25 skills available to him during a fight compared to the 8 GW1 had and those 8 where actually already enough !

If you compare like with like (cause i love it how you compare the skills you have available in a fight when it comes to gw2 but the pool of skills you have available to create  build in gw1)  in gw1 my necro has a pool of 86 total skills not 5!

Also the number of skills dont mean a thing ! its all about what those skills allow you to do that counts. Gw1 might have given you just 8 skills to but you were free to do so many different things unlike other MMOs that give you tons of skills but essentially you can just do the same thing with them. Do x fire damage, do x ice damage, do x lightning damage, do x light damage etc..

In gw1 you could create a build that does Direct Damage, AOE, heals .. its that flexibility that gave the game its strength not the number of skills which in themselves are meaningless. You can ignore the facts as much as you want but GW2 kept that same flexibility, it just moved it from the building phase of your deck to the execution phase. Just cuase you refuse to open your eyes and see it, it doesnt mean its not there!

Gw2 isnt perfect in its implementation of the combat system, while I love the system unfortunitely the game isnt hard enough to make it shine. It just needs a little content where failing means you dont manage at all rather then it will take you longer like it is now and you'll see how people will change their mind about the combat system once the game will force them to stop trivilaizing it.

#68 AlixIcebane

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 03:23 PM

The skill system was the biggest letdown for me. I understand the lack of pve content, actual raid and various defects considering the game is still young.

But that skill system is really horrible. It's like they decided to make an action game instead or a mmoRPG. And because of that and the fact that you cant manage aggro and actually tank, fighting in this game is more fun by yourself or in wvw than in pve groups.

A dodging game make a fun flash mini game, not a mmo thats to succeed one of the biggest game changers in history of online rpgs.

#69 Lordkrall

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 03:25 PM

View PostAlixIcebane, on 31 October 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

The skill system was the biggest letdown for me. I understand the lack of pve content, actual raid and various defects considering the game is still young.

But that skill system is really horrible. It's like they decided to make an action game instead or a mmoRPG. And because of that and the fact that you cant manage aggro and actually tank, fighting in this game is more fun by yourself or in wvw than in pve groups.

A dodging game make a fun flash mini game, not a mmo thats to succeed one of the biggest game changers in history of online rpgs.

That is strictly a learn to play issue.
It is very possible to manage aggro if you know how the system actually works.

#70 Afyael

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 04:28 PM

I honestly would be fine with the GW2 skill concept if they just gave us a couple more choices! I hate first of all that we can't move skills around, but honestly I hate that we can't decide from 2 or 3 more options what to use in each weaponskill slot.

Yes you can use traits to spec more offensively or defensively, I just think it would be nice to have say an offensive version of skill 2, a more defensive version of skill 2 and a more moderate skill 2 that was in the middle, I just feel like that would give much more variation instead of knowing every skill your opponent has and just memorizing the exact strategy to beat someone with a specific weapon. e.g. Okay that warrior has a greatsword, he's going to bullrush/stun and 100 blades me, just need to evade/stun break straight away and I will never die.

Edited by Afyael, 31 October 2012 - 04:30 PM.


#71 AlixIcebane

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 06:14 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 31 October 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

That is strictly a learn to play issue.
It is very possible to manage aggro if you know how the system actually works.

hmm... right

#72 Bryant Again

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 06:41 PM

I can confidently say I've had more gameplay variety on my GW1 Warrior than I ever have on my WoW Warrior.

I'll also say I've found GW2's PvE quite a bit more challenging than GW1, which for me just meant I usually just had to kill the monk first.

Now, do I think GW2 went in the right direction with the 'weapon skills' idea?

Real hard to say. I think in a completely ideal, optimized, and balanced world, it probably wouldn't have been necessary - and I'm pretty sure that's why they did they locked the weapon skills in the first place: balance. GW1 had problems like this since vanilla with dominant builds and it's one tough cookie of a concept: Is it better to encourage creativity regardless of viability (because hell yeah, customization), or limit a majority of it to traitlines to help eliminate 'bad builds'? (Of which there were PLENTY of in GW1).

Just can't decide, I'm evenly split, 50-50 on it.

#73 Racthoh

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 07:39 PM

View PostKrazzar, on 30 October 2012 - 11:56 PM, said:

Finally you've said something that makes sense, but you're a few years late to the party.

The rest is gibberish, especially the bit about being stuck with 5 skills forever. I don't know if you ignore every tooltip, but you can swap weapons with the "~" key by default which means you have more skills than than at your disposal, not to mention skill chains that can be interchanged, but that was merely hyperbole to make an argument in the first place. If you really want more skills the ele has 15 on the weapon bar, but I know that's not the complaint. The only complaint is it isn't the convoluted GW1 system. What's funny is you ignore the actual complexity of the GW2 build system and instead make an exaggerated claim of being stuck to 5 skills. Look at the skill interactions, even without traits there are more options in GW2 than in GW1, then you add traits and that number grows exponentially.

The GW2 system is fundamentally more complex than GW1, but you can continue to ignore that to make a claim based on nostalgia.
In Guild Wars 1 I had access to 64 skills at once to create all sorts of synergy and capitalize on extremes. Not only could you build characters to have their own bar interact with other skills but the other seven players in the party as well to varying degrees. Traits and combos do not compare to this. At all. Granting a skill or two an additional effect, or reducing the cooldown on certain skills to make them slightly tolerable in terms of recharge is not exciting. The only complexity to the Guild Wars 2 system is a well timed dodge roll to nullify extreme amounts of damage, something Protective Spirit, Reversal of Fortune, "Save Yourselves!", knockdown, blind, etc., could have compensated for. Combos are a nice thought but I doubt a good majority of players actively look to trigger them or even know what they do, yet players are running around with their dungeon sets which come from the hardest PvE content the game has to offer. Heck I rarely see other players use food or potion buffs either in dungeons. People aren't playing close to their full capacity but everything has been done already while Four Horseman rocked players for years until consumables and PvE skills were introduced.

Choice was axed for simplicity and it shows.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

#74 The Prestige

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 07:47 PM

I love the current system. Most of the suggestions I see in this thread, I hate. I also hated GW1.

Edited by The Prestige, 31 October 2012 - 07:47 PM.


#75 Krazzar

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 07:53 PM

View PostRacthoh, on 31 October 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

Spoiler

Do the math. GW1 has far less skill interactions per player, even excluding traits. This is another excellent example of a skewed scale, comparing a single build to an entire team of 8 players' builds. Unfounded claims, skewed scale, and incompatible criteria do not make valid arguments. Now you're just stuck to repetition and nostalgia.

The only "complexity" in the GW1 system was making sure you hit 1-8 in the proper order. You didn't even have to get your character in the proper range to use the skill. Your example does highlight a problem with GW2, most content is simply too easy so you only pay attention to what you want to, meaning most skip over the actual decision-making process in combat and some even remove the need to think with zergs. That's a problem with a variety of player ability and even GW1 had that problem.

#76 skooterodin

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 08:18 PM

it would be cool as well as give more reasons to kill champs that don't drop chest to give a unlock to a new elite skill. As a ranger I would love an elite trap or an elite bow skill like 20 sec flaming arrow buff.

#77 Knuckledust13

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 08:30 PM

View PostKrazzar, on 31 October 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

Do the math. GW1 has far less skill interactions per player, even excluding traits. This is another excellent example of a skewed scale, comparing a single build to an entire team of 8 players' builds. Unfounded claims, skewed scale, and incompatible criteria do not make valid arguments. Now you're just stuck to repetition and nostalgia.

The only "complexity" in the GW1 system was making sure you hit 1-8 in the proper order. You didn't even have to get your character in the proper range to use the skill. Your example does highlight a problem with GW2, most content is simply too easy so you only pay attention to what you want to, meaning most skip over the actual decision-making process in combat and some even remove the need to think with zergs. That's a problem with a variety of player ability and even GW1 had that problem.

You obviously never played GW1. Stop basing your opinions merely on things you hear, go buy the vanilla game and test it out. GW1 had WAY MORE interactions than GW2, in the sense that some builds were made specially to work with another such as the good old Leeway.

You described exactly how GW2 work actually, people mash 1-5 in a zerg on hopes of tagging enough mobs to get loot. On pvp it is even worse, there is no way to time your CC or predict a skillshot because you simply have no way to tell what the other players are going to do. Result? Spam 1-5, press 6 when health is at 50%.

Seriously..... be realistic guys. We all understand you have a  weird unconditional love for the game, but be realistic.

#78 Bryant Again

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 09:41 PM

View PostKrazzar, on 31 October 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

The only "complexity" in the GW1 system was making sure you hit 1-8 in the proper order. You didn't even have to get your character in the proper range to use the skill. Your example does highlight a problem with GW2, most content is simply too easy so you only pay attention to what you want to, meaning most skip over the actual decision-making process in combat and some even remove the need to think with zergs. That's a problem with a variety of player ability and even GW1 had that problem.

In regards to the bolded: If you want to apply this to GW1, look no further than PvXwiki. I'm not dissing it, rather pointing to where players can just look and get the 'best beeuild'. They're not the greatest, but they certainly work.

View PostKnuckledust13, on 31 October 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

We all understand you have a  weird unconditional love for the game...

You tell people to 'be realistic' and you say this? Confused...

#79 Fluent Fox

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:05 PM

I prefer it a great deal. It means you're required to fully explore each class' weapons sets to get the most variety. In GWs1 there were certain weapons i ignored on certain classes, in GW2 (with a few exceptions), I tend to utilise all available.

It makes the game feel much more varied to me.

I do hope they add more options in the future though,eventually I'm sure I'll desire a change, but the foundation is really good.

#80 blindude

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:07 PM

View PostKnuckledust13, on 31 October 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

On pvp it is even worse, there is no way to time your CC or predict a skillshot because you simply have no way to tell what the other players are going to do. Result? Spam 1-5, press 6 when health is at 50%.


have you ever thought that you might just suck?

Edited by blindude, 31 October 2012 - 10:08 PM.


#81 Vahkris

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:13 PM

View PostKnuckledust13, on 31 October 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

You obviously never played GW1. Stop basing your opinions merely on things you hear, go buy the vanilla game and test it out. GW1 had WAY MORE interactions than GW2, in the sense that some builds were made specially to work with another such as the good old Leeway.

You described exactly how GW2 work actually, people mash 1-5 in a zerg on hopes of tagging enough mobs to get loot. On pvp it is even worse, there is no way to time your CC or predict a skillshot because you simply have no way to tell what the other players are going to do. Result? Spam 1-5, press 6 when health is at 50%.

Seriously..... be realistic guys. We all understand you have a  weird unconditional love for the game, but be realistic.

You obviously have no idea how hilarious this statement is.

#82 Krazzar

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 11:02 PM

View PostKnuckledust13, on 31 October 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

You obviously never played GW1. Stop basing your opinions merely on things you hear, go buy the vanilla game and test it out. GW1 had WAY MORE interactions than GW2, in the sense that some builds were made specially to work with another such as the good old Leeway.

You described exactly how GW2 work actually, people mash 1-5 in a zerg on hopes of tagging enough mobs to get loot. On pvp it is even worse, there is no way to time your CC or predict a skillshot because you simply have no way to tell what the other players are going to do. Result? Spam 1-5, press 6 when health is at 50%.

Seriously..... be realistic guys. We all understand you have a  weird unconditional love for the game, but be realistic.

I've been playing GW1 for 90 months according to my /age, which if you would like to do the math is since the release date when the /age timer began and I have completed all campaigns, otherwise how would I have 31 points in the HoM? Claiming I am simply ignornant because I have never played GW1 is a common logical fallacy to use when you don't actually have any real points to argue. GW1 today is far different than the game in 2005, but the same has been true throughout it's history, it's builds wars, builds win or lose, not player ability.

That's what you do in the game, one day you may realize not everyone is just like you (and thank the gods for that).  I don't think you read the tooltips, since you didn't know you could swap weapons with "~", so I'll also fill you in on another important tooltip: use WASD to move your character, preferably away from a zerg. You're generally not going to have a good time if you don't control where your character goes.That also depends on your server, anywhere I go outside of farming spots in Orr there are no more than 4 players in the area.

Ah, more hyperbole. Your staple of posting. You should understand I have an knowledge of math and can apply logic. The game has plenty of problems, but this isn't one of them.

Edited by Krazzar, 31 October 2012 - 11:04 PM.


#83 antoninusthepious

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 11:45 PM

Or cross profession skills!  Even if they give just 2 or maybe 1 slot for a cross profession skill that would make me happy

#84 antoninusthepious

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 11:50 PM

View PostKrazzar, on 31 October 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

The only "complexity" in the GW1 system was making sure you hit 1-8 in the proper order. You didn't even have to get your character in the proper range to use the skill. Your example does highlight a problem with GW2, most content is simply too easy so you only pay attention to what you want to, meaning most skip over the actual decision-making process in combat and some even remove the need to think with zergs. That's a problem with a variety of player ability and even GW1 had that problem.

Perhaps this post is right.  GW2 content is not as challenging imho that GW1.  Most dungeons revolve around your skill with the dodge button than anything else. other than that it's mostly hitting 1-5 every cooldown.  I do miss UW / FoW wher the dungeons have an actual risk!  Fail and you wipe = teleported to ToA

*anyone remember the escort the ghost phase in UW?*

GW2 dungeons are much more forgiving than GW1 imo.  Yes they can be hard, lupicus, alpha if no one knows how to doge, etc... but it just feels different...

I would be totally up for an UW/FoW "transport" into GW2!

Edited by antoninusthepious, 31 October 2012 - 11:57 PM.


#85 antoninusthepious

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 11:56 PM

What do you guys think of this:

We have the weapons and weapon skill sets we have right now
On top of the current trait system as it is

But to bring a more customizable and "GW1" aspect back to the game,  Anet implements weapons having MORE than 5 skills in their set.  Each weapon will have, say, 8 skill to choose from that the player needs to unlock. The weapon when slotted will come with the  default skills that they come with right now, but we can unlock other skills and can replace some of the default ones.

This might bring in some variety and will fulfill some people's desires to have a more "custom-built" build instead of being pidgen-holed into a given weapon skill  set.

Edited by antoninusthepious, 01 November 2012 - 12:00 AM.


#86 Ketingo Ketango

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 12:57 AM

View Postantoninusthepious, on 31 October 2012 - 11:56 PM, said:

But to bring a more customizable and "GW1" aspect back to the game,

I think this is where people need to change their way of thinking, and it pains me to say it because I adored GW1. Guildwars 2 is not going to revert back to its GW1 ways; it's moved on.

#87 Gremlin

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 02:04 AM

Just as a test I have gone through the core and prophesies skills for a warrior.
There are
9 sword skills / 19 strength skills /  19 Tactics skills and 6 no attribute skills total of 53 skills

Of those 18 do extra damage / 9 Block attacks 5 cause bleeding.

The other 21 skills can Cripple, interrupt, let you move or attack  faster,, gain adrenaline and energy.
Knock down foes, Heal yourself and others, increase health, recharge skills.
Do critical hits and daze enemies.

Apart from having a large number of different named skills many of which have similar effects  most above can be done in gw2 by using a sword and secondary weapon and your utility skills.
I would think it possible to do every one of those effects on a single mission by swapping utility skills between fights.

#88 XPhiler

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 08:46 AM

View PostKnuckledust13, on 31 October 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

You obviously never played GW1. Stop basing your opinions merely on things you hear, go buy the vanilla game and test it out. GW1 had WAY MORE interactions than GW2, in the sense that some builds were made specially to work with another such as the good old Leeway.

You described exactly how GW2 work actually, people mash 1-5 in a zerg on hopes of tagging enough mobs to get loot. On pvp it is even worse, there is no way to time your CC or predict a skillshot because you simply have no way to tell what the other players are going to do. Result? Spam 1-5, press 6 when health is at 50%.

Seriously..... be realistic guys. We all understand you have a  weird unconditional love for the game, but be realistic.

Right so being realistic is comparing oranges to apples in your opinion? a few people here seem to love to cherry pick arguments from both sides and compare the best ideal scenarios of gw1 with the worst most restrictive situation in gw2

Arguments like I had 100s of skills in gw1 and only FIVE skills in gw2 (highlighting the 5 cause its even a lie since everyone gets at least 15 skills in battle). So nice to pain gw1 in a nice light you're cointing the whole skill pool and comparing that to the skills you get in combat in gw2... sure thats being realistic.

An honest comparison would be in case of the necro you have 144 in gw1 and 86 in gw2
or if you want to consider combat its 8 in gw1 vs 23 in gw2 (and not counting underwater skills which mean another 13 skills)

another arguement thats supposed to be realistic was I have 64 skills i can synergize together in gw1 and only well guess what if you had a party of 8 necros in guild wars 2 you'd get 184 skills to synergize with each other and yes there is a ton you can do with a party of 8 necros as opposed to a single one! for starters you could spread a full stack of bleed and poisons every 2 seconds of you syncronized as opposed to approx 9 bleeds and 3 poisons every 15 seconds. you can blind every enemy every 1 second. Massively boost each other damage, keep a never ending regen on each other. Heal each other and thats with everyone being of the same class with access to the same skills more of less, imagine what could be done when you factor in other classes which would give you access to effects that necros dont have like confusion, daze, fury, quickness, Aegis, Protection, Stability, stealth etc..

Also somehow Aegis, protection, stability, blind, fear, crippled, immobilized, daze, stun, knockdown,invulnerability dont seem to reduce damage recieved or can be used to mitigate incoming attacks any more in gw2 since people seem to keep insisting that the only way to mitigate damage is to dodge!

I get it you dont like the combat system in gw2, thats fine but at least argue honestly dont cherry pick arguements and even worst accusing those who are honest with the facts of being dishonest! Statements such as "Seriously..... be realistic guys. We all understand you have a  weird unconditional love for the game, but be realistic." mean nothing if not backed up by specifics and no statements like "Spam 1-5, press 6 when health is at 50%." dont debunk anything. Its like me staying ohh GW1 skill system is so easy all you have to do is sit there and you can still win one of the most challenging dungeon like glint's challenge!
Sure you could do it does that mean gw1 skill system is shallow? OF COURSE NOT! same ehre, sure some people spam skills mindlessly that doesnt mean the skill system isnt equally deep!

#89 XPhiler

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 09:04 AM

View Postantoninusthepious, on 31 October 2012 - 11:45 PM, said:

Or cross profession skills!  Even if they give just 2 or maybe 1 slot for a cross profession skill that would make me happy

note that there are skills you can leverage cross profession already. For example As a necro I have epidemic which basically gets the conditions from one target and spreads it around. So other professions dealing thier own conditions especially conditions i dont have access to like say confusion can be leveraged by me to essentially deliver a much more devastating AOE DOT attack. As a necro with lich form, esspecially coupled with the vulnerability condition I can deal a ton of damage with my lich basic attack but its a pretty slow attack UNLESS a some other profession gives me quickness which I cannot do on myself, then my DPS with th lich thats already high, doubles!

on the other hand because of my trait setup I can essentially keep regen running on an ally allowing them to better tank. I  can also do 2 blinds and a fear allowing them to avoid the nasty powerful attacks. I also have epidemic which allows me to turn single target condition inflicting skills by other classes into an AOE.

There are other examples if you look... This is a situational combat system which means unlike gw1 you dont get a specific skill that does one specific skill. You have skills that do generic effects and its how you use them and in what situation you use them that gives them their power and flexibility!

#90 XPhiler

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 09:12 AM

View Postantoninusthepious, on 31 October 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

Perhaps this post is right.  GW2 content is not as challenging imho that GW1.  Most dungeons revolve around your skill with the dodge button than anything else. other than that it's mostly hitting 1-5 every cooldown.  I do miss UW / FoW wher the dungeons have an actual risk!  Fail and you wipe = teleported to ToA

*anyone remember the escort the ghost phase in UW?*

GW2 dungeons are much more forgiving than GW1 imo.  Yes they can be hard, lupicus, alpha if no one knows how to doge, etc... but it just feels different...

I would be totally up for an UW/FoW "transport" into GW2!

I fully agree about the lack of challenge in gw2, most content is unfortunitely really easy! but that being said just cause you can manage with using 1 - 5 skills doesnt mean you have to do that especially in dungeons! Playing properly will allow you to learn how to really use your build effectively which in some rare times can be useful! when I started out playing gw2 in the beta I had a lot of trouble if I agrooed 3 enemies at ones with full health! Now sometimes I end up unlucky and end up aggroed with a new set of enemies one after the other because either enemy can summon mobs or they respawn while I am dealing with the one before or a patrol walks on an existing fight and many times I can survive even 2 sets of fights with barely any health left .. spaming 1-5 will get you death 100% in such situations. It can also make a huge difference in dungeons. Sure playing casually with no real strategy can get the dungeon done. But playing properly can get the dungeon done without even going in a downed state once! I can also get it done quicker! A lot quicker! for example most dungeon mobs come in a set of 3s. If the whole party just focuses on one at a time you'll end up with a full health enemy once you finish downing one enemy. By doing a minor simple co-ordination of just asking my party to open up the fight by putting as many conditions on our target I can use my epidemic skill to spread those conditions to the other mobs and then keep it up periodically even without sync by the time we kill the target mob the others would be at 1/2 health! resulting in finish the fight in 1/3 the time it would take if we just focused on one and just one at a time!  And its not just about time obviously the faster you kill them the less damage they can do to you!




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