88 replies to this topic

[jirayasan]

It's like this every time a new mmorpg is released.

- Everyone hypes the game. A few are haters and bash it.
- Hardcore players play it for a month and then quit and wait for a new mmorpg to release.
- Players expect a game will stay fun for eternity.
- Players expect a new game will be like heaven that opens up in the sky and washes all your sins and all the darkness away from this world.


The problem isn't the game itself, it's the player. You don't have to play the same game every day for 5 years. If you do the same thing over and over you will eventually get bored by it.

Don't blame the game, blame yourself.

[Ritualist]

I can't agree with this.
For instance, if we look at how the GW games worked, we can see that they were games with a fairly decent amount of content. And that's absolutely fantastic. What's even more fantastic is that the game offers the players the chance to replay the content at will. It means you objectively have a ton of things to do and subjectively you CAN get even MORE out of the game.
But, while the subjective content can be almost limitless, objective content can NEVER be limitless. Objective content will have an end.
The problem is that the devs refuse to accept this. If the devs have 10 hours worth of content, they have 10 hours worth of content. It's fantastic that certain individuals will get 100 hours of this content, but that doesn't change the fact that they still only have 10 hours worth of content.

It's the devs that create the games and it's the devs fault for trying to sell the games as something that they are not. And if we look at GW2, the game lacks the content to support all of the goals A.Net put into it. Their product is worse because they are choosing to pander to morons who refuse to accept reality and are demanding something that no game can ever offer.

[Lordkrall]

The game evolves.
Just because it doesn't have all the "content to support all of the goals" right at this moment does not mean it won't in 6 months.

[FoxBat]

jirayasan, on 29 October 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

You don't have to play the same game every day for 5 years. If you do the same thing over and over you will eventually get bored by it.

Near everyone expecting this has the actual experience of playing one MMO a hell of a lot, and probably considering it the second coming for a time. The fact that they can't get that experience again might have more to do with how they've changed rather than the MMO market, but it's still an expectation rooted in some reality.

Socializing also has a big role with this, hence why you see it more with MMOs than almost anything else. It's harder to keep communities together the more you spread out between different games.

Edited by FoxBat, 29 October 2012 - 12:24 PM.

[turbo234]

There just isn't enough content with a new game, no matter what it is. Give it time and it will be a great thing.

[Walrammetje]

Took me 7 years of pretty hardcore playing (with a half year break) to get bored of WoW, and a month to get bored of GW2.

I don't hate the game though. I just play it very, very casual. I just feel like there's not enough things to keep me busy in the game really. But as Turbo234 said; it takes time. So when there will be more content to keep me playing for a longer time, I will play the game again. That's the great thing about no monthly fees.

[Zero_Soulreaver]

It's not just MMOs, it's gaming in general.  I'm gonna be completely honest here, games are hyped to hell these days and it's annoying.  It's hard to weed out the people who actually have an opinion that helps you see if you may like or not like a game.  Example is asking a friend, they usually overhype it too like they work for the company lol.

So many people come with this crazy thought that everything is "amazing" which causes disappointment.
You have to keep in your mind that many older gamers have been there done that in games.  So it's hard to impress these people this day and age.

I don't think players expect a game to be that insane in terms of wanting some epic game.  People just want something different than what they are used to or it feels like "been there done that, now I'm bored".

Guys this stuff isn't new, it happens with every game these days.  Everyone hypes it up as the next best thing then everyone tries it.  People get disappointed and stop playing and others stay.  Why is it all of a sudden a big thing now?

[Mootillay]

Getting bored of GW2 after a month says more about the player than the game imho.  It's pretty much impossible to thoroughly try everything this game has to offer within the span of a month, let alone a year.

[Shadowrose]

jirayasan, on 29 October 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

It's like this every time a new mmorpg is released.

- Everyone hypes the game. A few are haters and bash it.
- Hardcore players play it for a month and then quit and wait for a new mmorpg to release.
- Players expect a game will stay fun for eternity.
- Players expect a new game will be like heaven that opens up in the sky and washes all your sins and all the darkness away from this world.


The problem isn't the game itself, it's the player. You don't have to play the same game every day for 5 years. If you do the same thing over and over you will eventually get bored by it.

Don't blame the game, blame yourself.

Nah, I'll blame the game.

Because there are some rare games that have indeed reached the "eternity" part, if eternity is longer than 3 weeks, I'll take that.

If those rare games didn't exist, then no one would expect anything more than just a time killer that lasts 3 weeks worth of content / fun.

Blame those games instead, for being so good that the nowadays games are a joke compared to them. Blame them for raising our expectations maybe a little bit too high.

Didn't you make a thread bashing ANet recently? What's going on, OP? http://www.guildwars...-next-blizzard/

[anudaw]

there is no game that is released full with content, people just cant wait.

[Evans]

It's funny how it's a double sided knife.
Personally I've only reached 50% world completion. I haven't done any form of PVP and have lots of explorable dungeons yet to do. I'm thus far from bored and I seem to have a lot of time to spend still. I only have one lv80 toon and 5 others in the lv20-Lv40 range.
In contrast, I'm often addressed asking why I don't have 100% yet. "How long I'm going to take, lol". Then it's those people who start going on how boring the game is and why there's nothing more to do...

Not saying everyone needs to slow down, just noticing that the game is very casual approved and I appreciate that.
Hey I just visited a Doylak graveyard the other day, and that was awesome!

[Lordkrall]

Shadowrose, on 29 October 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

Nah, I'll blame the game.

Because there are some rare games that have indeed reached the "eternity" part, if eternity is longer than 3 weeks, I'll take that.

If those rare games didn't exist, then no one would expect anything more than just a time killer that lasts 3 weeks worth of content / fun.

Blame those games instead, for being so good that the nowadays games are a joke compared to them. Blame them for raising our expectations maybe a little bit too high.

Didn't you make a thread bashing ANet recently? What's going on, OP? http://www.guildwars...-next-blizzard/

You mean those lovely games from the 90:s that we all see with rose-tinted glasses and that had several expansions and updates over the years?

Might be a good idea to look at how they were 2 months after release instead of looking at how they are now.

[Shadowrose]

Lordkrall, on 29 October 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

You mean those lovely games from the 90:s that we all see with rose-tinted glasses and that had several expansions and updates over the years?

Might be a good idea to look at how they were 2 months after release instead of looking at how they are now.

I know it's unfair because during those days there were no such high expectations like in today's generation.

But still, ANet should've known this if they wanted their game to last.

[Lordkrall]

Shadowrose, on 29 October 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

I know it's unfair because during those days there were no such high expectations like in today's generation.

But still, ANet should've known this if they wanted their game to last.

Of course, today's youth are silly.

Indeed, and they do know that, why else would they be so fast with content updates?
We have a rather massive Halloween update with new areas, new mini-games and such. And we have a "massive update" coming in November as well.
That is rather much faster than all those "good old games".

[Ixelbyte]

Shadowrose, on 29 October 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

Nah, I'll blame the game.

Because there are some rare games that have indeed reached the "eternity" part, if eternity is longer than 3 weeks, I'll take that.

If those rare games didn't exist, then no one would expect anything more than just a time killer that lasts 3 weeks worth of content / fun.

Blame those games instead, for being so good that the nowadays games are a joke compared to them. Blame them for raising our expectations maybe a little bit too high.

Didn't you make a thread bashing ANet recently? What's going on, OP? http://www.guildwars...-next-blizzard/

Name them. I need a good game to play.

[Bryant Again]

Hype and when promoters started saying how better than WoW their game would be is when people became upset when MMOs aren't 'perfect'. It isn't their fault.

I think GW2 is a great game and pretty much exactly what I wanted (sans some more UI customization...) but I personally considered my expectations to be...well, 'realistic'

Ixelbyte, on 29 October 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

Name them. I need a good game to play.

Dark Soooouls

If I cut out my bias, though, I'd say strategy games are pretty good at maintaining longevity.

Edited by Bryant Again, 29 October 2012 - 01:03 PM.

[Moxin Rift]

I find that strangely people seem to be searching for a game that will take over their lives.
Many of us have had the experience, when playing an MMO, of it becoming a kind of second life, an alternative world to live in. This came partly because the games were enthralling, partly because they were set up to require lots of playing time. The subscrition model requires that - you have to keep people playing, and subscribing. Also, when you subscribe, you feel a certain obligation to play, as otherwise your money is wasted. I remember a few old guildies from WoW, who would frequently lament how bored they were. But they kept playing.

But GW2 is quite deliberately not set up this way. It is a game that to a certain extent lets you play as much as you like. Personally I have loads of stuff yet to do with my 8 toons - I find I'm only beginning. However, I am playing at the tempo that I happen to like at any given time. Sometimes I play a lot, somethimes hardly at all. The game lets me do that, and I am very happy with that. I play the game for the fun, and only for the fun. As such, it is a game that can coexist with other games, and I'm happy with that too.

Also - I cannot for the life of me see that there is not enough content in GW2. The game is huge. However, there may not be the specific content that any given player is looking for. I feel that many come here looking for "WoW, only better", and get frustrated when they find something very different. Personally I am glad there is not "dungeons that you have to grind over and over again so that you can get to grinding raids over and over again" - that model is really just a mirage of content. I can still miss WoW on occasion - it's been over a year now - but I'm not going back to that.

[Nam Otatop]

Moxin Rift, on 29 October 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

I am glad there is not "dungeons that you have to grind over and over again so that you can get to grinding raids over and over again" - that model is really just a mirage of content.

So the dungeons you grind over and over for cosmetic items that lead to nothing and are so easy you could probably do them with two fingers are better? Let's be serious, no one wants to grind for anything but i'd sooner do something where i have to engage my brain over what the current excuse for dungeons are. Once you've got your desired cosmetics there is no reason at all to replay the dungeons because they're mindless tank and spanks only the tank is a NPC.

[Lordkrall]

Nam Otatop, on 29 October 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

So the dungeons you grind over and over for cosmetic items that lead to nothing and are so easy you could probably do them with two fingers are better? Let's be serious, no one wants to grind for anything but i'd sooner do something where i have to engage my brain over what the current excuse for dungeons are. Once you've got your desired cosmetics there is no reason at all to replay the dungeons because they're mindless tank and spanks only the tank is a NPC.

Yes, it is much better to do dungeons because you WANT to do them than it is to do dungeons because you HAVE to do them.

Need is always worse than want.

How often do you re-run instances in WoW after you got the full set needed for the next tier/raid/whatever?

[Nam Otatop]

Lordkrall, on 29 October 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

Yes, it is much better to do dungeons because you WANT to do them than it is to do dungeons because you HAVE to do them.

Need is always worse than want.

How often do you re-run instances in WoW after you got the full set needed for the next tier/raid/whatever?

Tonnes of times, up until WotLK WoW had some excellent dungeons and some of them weren't push overs either. Runnng through all the vanilla dungeons when leveling an alt was always good fun, exp payoff wasn't that good but it was something to do to get away from the standard questing. In GW2 i seriously cannot be bothered to level an alt and if i did i would only do the dungeons once for the exp, running into a dungeon and smashing your keyboard till everything dies isn't smart or fun play and that's all there is to it. You can literally just run through pulling loads of packs then AoE them all down in moments whilst your NPC friends take all the beating for you.

[DuskWolf]

Except the OP isn't correct at all. I stick with the MMORPG I find to be the most fun. For me, that's quick, frenetic combat, being able to zip around and actually utilise my reflexes. It means combat which requires spatial awareness, and having a world that's fun/funny. It means a lot of character customisation, and liking how my character looks.

The problem is is that Guild Wars 2 has the opposite of all of these things. Click through and have a read of what I see as some of the biggest problems with the game right now.

I keep going back to CO and STO because they have all of the things I want. GW2 came so close to greatness... yet it has fallen so far. There are some terrible design choices at play, and that can't be denied. And no matter how much of a fanboy you are, you can't deny that Orr and Trahearne are, quite frankly, some of the most horrible things we've had to endure in an MMO. That's getting close to WoW standards, that is.

GW2 is just slow, clumsy, meandering, and plodding. It doesn't know what it wants to do with itself, it doesn't know what story it wants to tell, and it feels like a fragmented mess. It completely lacks focus. And as of right now, for me, there are better games out there.

Why am I still here? I keep hoping ArenaNet will pull their socks up and do a better job. But as long as we have cognitive dissonance bouncing around, along with fanboys just straight up lying to them, they won't have the motivation to do so. And that's depressing.

[Lordkrall]

Nam Otatop, on 29 October 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

Tonnes of times, up until WotLK WoW had some excellent dungeons and some of them weren't push overs either. Runnng through all the vanilla dungeons when leveling an alt was always good fun, exp payoff wasn't that good but it was something to do to get away from the standard questing. In GW2 i seriously cannot be bothered to level an alt and if i did i would only do the dungeons once for the exp, running into a dungeon and smashing your keyboard till everything dies isn't smart or fun play and that's all there is to it. You can literally just run through pulling loads of packs then AoE them all down in moments whilst your NPC friends take all the beating for you.

I assume based on that wall of text that you have never actually done most of the dungeons in GW2, especially not in Explorable mode.

[Opollo]

Protoss, on 29 October 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

It's the devs that create the games and it's the devs fault for trying to sell the games as something that they are not. And if we look at GW2, the game lacks the content to support all of the goals A.Net put into it. Their product is worse because they are choosing to pander to morons who refuse to accept reality and are demanding something that no game can ever offer.

Couldn't agree with this more.

If you go to new MMOs expecting "difference" other than theme and graphics...you will need to wait like 10+ more years.

People need to realise that no matter what HYPE and PROMISES any developer give you regarding how "different" their game is, it's just marketing. The only real difference in this game is the forced differences like changing "instant spell" to "cantrips" etc.

MMOs are MMOs and eventually, even they have an end.

First thing you do when thinking about playing a new MMO is NOT to pay attention to anything developers say to hype their game up.

I mean....JUST LOOK AT SWTOR.

[Nam Otatop]

Lordkrall, on 29 October 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

I assume based on that wall of text that you have never actually done most of the dungeons in GW2, especially not in Explorable mode.

Well yeah i have and they're easy. Story modes are a total joke, explorable modes are slightly harder as you can't pulverise everything in a few seconds by falling asleep on the keyboard but it's still not challenging at all. If you can use the dodge button and know when to use it you will have 0 issues unless your team are total idiots.

[Lordkrall]

Nam Otatop, on 29 October 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

Well yeah i have and they're easy. Story modes are a total joke, explorable modes are slightly harder as you can't pulverise everything in a few seconds by falling asleep on the keyboard but it's still not challenging at all. If you can use the dodge button and know when to use it you will have 0 issues unless your team are total idiots.

So you have completed every single explorable mode in every single dungeon without any problems at all?

[Nam Otatop]

Lordkrall, on 29 October 2012 - 01:51 PM, said:

So you have completed every single explorable mode in every single dungeon without any problems at all?

Haven't done them all as there is no reason to do so, i've done the majority and the only time i've ever had an issue was when people in the group were too stupid to understand how boss fights worked or that not dodging AoEs is bad.

[Arquenya]

jirayasan, on 29 October 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

The problem isn't the game itself, it's the player. You don't have to play the same game every day for 5 years. If you do the same thing over and over you will eventually get bored by it.

Don't blame the game, blame yourself.

I'm sorry but this is nonsense. A good game company should know how to entertain their customers, not blame them for not doing so. After 10+ years of mmo history it shouldn't be that hard. It's not just about the content but also the replayability and challenge in it. GW was smaller than GW2 when released but I had a lot more to do.

- GW: skillhunting and trying new builds. Helping people and finding good players. FoW and UW. 15k and FoW gear. Random 4 vs 4. Alts. That's the stuff that kept me busy for many, many long months.

- In GW2 there's hardly any challenges. Levelling all single player content. The "prestige" armour sets aren't that inspiring and very easy to get. The Zerg mechanic is a very bad side effect of the DE system, it's almost "Zerg Wars". Having 19 levelling areas and just only 1 area with best loot, ori and stuff isn't a very good idea either. And vistas and jump puzzles, is that really genuine MMO content?

ANet has gone through great lengths to make all that content, big areas full of pretty stuff. Why not make 5 areas for max level instead of just 1? Why not small skirmish PvP options like CTF and such? Why not make a Mad King instance for 5 man teams instead of more Zergs? Or big FoW/UW areas - but for teams and not zergs/bots?
I have the feeling they're just giving everything away in "super easy mode" almost without any need for coop, just numbers. It's all either single player or zerg. What happened to teamwork?

I know it's not just me when I say that the game has great potential and is very beautiful but - for a lot if not most people - lacks challenge and small and funny things to do. An no, that's not the players' fault.

Edited by Arquenya, 29 October 2012 - 02:26 PM.

[Lordkrall]

Nam Otatop, on 29 October 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:

Haven't done them all as there is no reason to do so, i've done the majority and the only time i've ever had an issue was when people in the group were too stupid to understand how boss fights worked or that not dodging AoEs is bad.

So you have no idea about those dungeons then.
Good. Now stop assuming things.

[Nam Otatop]

Lordkrall, on 29 October 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

So you have no idea about those dungeons then.
Good. Now stop assuming things.

No but i said i've done the majority and they were easy, if the majority is easy then overall PvE is easy. I really doubt if i ever bother doing the rest of the paths they'll be any challenge whatsoever, i've never heard anyone complain they were too hard which says it all when people  were crying over the "difficulty" of the fire elemental in Metrica. This just seems more like you trying to justify finding PvE challenging than anything else and has gotten way offtopic.

[Midnight_Tea]

Open world games of any sorts, including theme park MMOs, are like tools for creating your own fun. As they say, it's a poor carpenter that blames their tools. It's ironically precisely because a lot of people unable or unwilling to find their own fun anymore that many modern AAA games are so homogeneous hand-holding and cinematic. They're like that damn lizard thing from Cut the Rope, sitting there with their mouth open and waiting for content to drop into it.

I wonder how many of them would have found the Lady in White on their own during the beta. Or for that matter, that other non-hostile Queensdale ghost who was given a blessing from Grenth so they could continue to watch and love their family. Or that pipe full of goo that runs along Beetletun's fields. Or the Demongrub Pits. See, I just listed a bunch of things in just one zone out of the many zones in the game that counts as content but most people aren't going to ever see them. They're used to being led around by the nose by the UI. If it's not glowing or flashing on the UI it might as well not exist. They just do whatever the game tells them to do, and if the game doesn't actively tell them that they're having fun than they're simply not having fun.

Maybe on April 1st, ANet should have all the DEs and renown hearts start with the phrase "Would you kindly...".

Edited by Midnight_Tea, 29 October 2012 - 02:57 PM.