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Necro vs Thief


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#1 Ruufio

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 05:50 PM

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340 Toughness added. (I'm not building a *ing bunker tank just to survive Thieves burst)

24K damage.

Necromancers would be overpowered if they started with Life Force. If Necromancers started with Life Force they might become invincible and do far too much damage and be able to survive opening bursts. That would be unacceptable! The Necromancer is the most powerful class in the game and people just need to learn how to master Death Shroud, that is all. Once they master it I fear what the game will become! Dying instantly? Well that is your risk vs reward. You need to work up your Life Force and then you'll become an all mighty powerful killing machine!!!!

Mobility you say? Nay. The Necromancer is a powerful beast, he would be far too powerful with mobility. Being spawn camped and can't get past them? Just kill them all... You're a Necromancer! You can easily survive your opponents, you have a second health bar!! You just need to master it! You are practically invincible with Death Shroud!

A Necromancer will always lose a 1v1 because it starts with no life force. You don't have a counter unless you waste a utility slot but it doesn't change the fact that you don't have your main mechanic up until you are dead already.

Edited by Ruufio, 01 November 2012 - 09:00 PM.


#2 AslaGG

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 06:15 PM

Hi,

I mainly play thief and necro and let me tell you it's really hard to hit a 12k bs since the signet change on last update. So, if the screen is post update (22/10), you must be really glassy because while i am playing my  conditionmancer, idon't get instanteat by bs thief (2700 armor for around 20k hp).

Anyway, i am not saying this combo is not broken, but with enough armor and reactivity you can manage to survive the initial burst while using a stun breaker (to remove basilik poison) and popping a well of darkness. If the bs thief miss his initial burst, he ll (most of the time) run away. If he doesn't, just spam your mark and stuff to kite him a bit, stay in front of him, it's your best chance to survive :)

And you don't need full ds to manage an oppenent, 10% Ds is enough to launch a fear or to aoe when he is stealth.

Edited by AslaGG, 29 October 2012 - 06:19 PM.


#3 Ruufio

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 06:40 PM

Yeah this is after the update. This really bothered me because I just jumped off the starting area and instantly died, and I've never seen a backstab do that much damage in my life. I was like, "Really....?"

Anyway, I don't use the typical condition build with Rabid Amulet. I use a boon removal build with 340 Toughness added and 359 Vitality added. 2176 armor. Not exactly glass cannon but it's not tank either. But you shouldn't have to have 2700 armor to defend a Thieves burst. I know conditions are the only real build Necromancers have but that's really boring.

#4 stefanplc

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 07:03 PM

lol I would go as far as saying cut that damage in half... even 10k damage in 3 hits is quite a burst

#5 Lachanche

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 07:42 PM

View PostRuufio, on 29 October 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

Yeah this is after the update. This really bothered me because I just jumped off the starting area and instantly died, and I've never seen a backstab do that much damage in my life. I was like, "Really....?"

Back in the glorious days of 50% dmg bonus i hitted sm0k3 (a noobish friend of mine) for 18k with a single backstab, he was under 50% hp after my mug + c&d combo and that' s what boosted my final strike by so much.

Basically if you drop below 50% hp you need to start playing defensive and that' s only once you breakstun out of / dodge the initial basilisk venom.

Things change a lot if you are aware of the thief though, just place a reaper mark under your feet, immobilize him after he gets feared, have your golem charge at him and whoop his ass :cool:

#6 gnuworldorder

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 07:49 PM

here are a few fixes.

1) stop complaining about spvp balance
2) you have almost no armor my tank build has 3100 armor and my roamer has 2800 armor
3) use reapers mark. it will fear them on stun and then you drop your staff5 for another fear and fight from there
4) since we have the best condition management in the game toughness > vitality

#7 Louis8k8

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 08:14 PM

The point of that kind of thief is to kill non-tanks. I don't see a problem with this particular situation at all. =/

My tank necro roflstomps backstabbers. People could be complaining that tank necros should be nerfed for all I know. But it's just a specific design. My tank necro doesn't do well against condition+cc builds, and does very well against burst builds. You can't expect a build to win vs everything.

I'd consider anything 2k- as glass and 2.7k+ as tank. You're very close to glass cannon. You'd face the same fate to frenzied axe chopper warriors and most burst classes.

I don't even know what backstabbers hit on me, it rarely makes it as top damage taken. Think it was around 5k but that was in WvW and i usually have protection up.

#8 Chubby

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 07:27 AM

View PostLouis8k8, on 29 October 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

The point of that kind of thief is to kill non-tanks. I don't see a problem with this particular situation at all. =/
This.  When I play my D/D glass thief and get jumped by a backstab thief or get caught in a warrior's frenzied lolblades with my stunbreaker on CD, I die pretty much instantly but seeing it's a high risk (I die easily) high rewards (I kill fast) scenario, I'll just be like "oh well, too bad, next time i'll get him (seeing they are glass as well)"

When I play my on my condition necro, I've NEVER been instagibbed.  There are simply too many ways to avoid the burst...DS, DS Fear, reaper's mark, blinds, dodges, plague signet to break stun, even a trait for fear when you are CC'ed.....though I realize when I'm on my thief I can easily 3 shot necros at the beginning of games since they have no DS and they didnt' have staff equipped XD

#9 Dirame

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:19 AM

In all my builds, I've never gone without a staff. Place Reaper's mark under your feet and stand on it. The first thing any thief does is teleport to you and when he does he will be instantly feared.

The day I didn't take a staff, I seriously had to start thinking differently... t'was a weird experience and I eventually went back to using it because it's just too darn useful.

#10 Ruufio

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 05:06 PM

Yeah I've always used staff but now I've been wielding it whenever I'm running around which is a smart idea...

Changed it up a bit and got +650 Toughness now. Though, I did get killed the other day, regardless, by Cloak & Dagger, Steal and Backstab which didn't kill me. I already used Doom to try and heal up. Then he used the stolen 3s Fear, Heartseeker, Heartseeker, Heartseeker.

Epic display of skill there. That stolen Thief Fear needs to be 1s IMO, it's AOE. The only AOE fear we have is 1s long so them stealing a 3s fear from us doesn't even make sense.

Edited by Ruufio, 31 October 2012 - 05:06 PM.


#11 Chubby

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 03:41 AM

@Dirame:
Sorry I didn't mean necro's not carrying a staff...i meant it might be on his alternate set.......

Anyway fact remains at the beginning of a game, Necros are much easier to kill without DS to mitigate dmg/instant fear...TBH usually I just DS to eat any of the burst and fear (by that time any lolblade/bs thieves would've lost their burst), and unlike having to place mark on ground (with a cast time), DS+fear = instant.......

i.e. if thief jumps you first since you didn't see him, there is no time to place marks...so your options will be limited (DS/stunbreak/blinds/dodge)

@Ruufio
I have to agree...3s AOE fear is bull.....and necros are supposedly the only class with access to fears...yet they have the crappiest fears...wars and thieves have access to 1-3s AOE fears....whereas we only have access to single target fears without traits...(although DS->fear on a relatively short CD is pretty awesome)

#12 PresidentsBushes

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:12 PM

View PostRuufio, on 29 October 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

Posted Image

340 Toughness added. (I'm not building a *ing bunker tank just to survive Thieves burst)

24K damage.

Necromancers would be overpowered if they started with Life Force. If Necromancers started with Life Force they might become invincible and do far too much damage and be able to survive opening bursts. That would be unacceptable! The Necromancer is the most powerful class in the game and people just need to learn how to master Death Shroud, that is all. Once they master it I fear what the game will become! Dying instantly? Well that is your risk vs reward. You need to work up your Life Force and then you'll become an all mighty powerful killing machine!!!!

Mobility you say? Nay. The Necromancer is a powerful beast, he would be far too powerful with mobility. Being spawn camped and can't get past them? Just kill them all... You're a Necromancer! You can easily survive your opponents, you have a second health bar!! You just need to master it! You are practically invincible with Death Shroud!

A Necromancer will always lose a 1v1 because it starts with no life force. You don't have a counter unless you waste a utility slot but it doesn't change the fact that you don't have your main mechanic up until you are dead already.

The above scenario you showed is due to you not trying to dodge, use a AOE fear mark on the ground, or switching to deathshroud to instant fear them. You could also have dropped a well of darkness basically making the thief miss for 5 straight seconds, used wells to apply protection, deathshroud specced can provide retaliation, axe has retaliation,  healing can provide retaliation, runes can provide it, runes can make you go invisible at 10% health,  using number 4 on dagger off hand is an AOE blind also.

That scenario you showed in the screen shot very very very rarely happens if you are employing all of these things I just mentioned, by the way I have all of these moves. My condition damage is extremely high and my power is second highest it can be. You seriously need to L2P if you cannot react within .25 seconds to throw down well of darkness, the AOE blind on dagger off hand is .25 second cast, dodging = instant, stun breaker = instant, theres a stun breaker in the bottom tree, theres a trait in like the 3rd trait line or something that if you become stunned/rooted/dazed/anything all nearby foes fear you.

You must have a horrible build if you don't have any of these defensive things. Becoming a bunker doesn't mean you lose all your power and condi damage, you sacrifice your critical chance for power, health, and condition amulet. That is the best set up. won 93% of my spvp games as a necromancer out of 412 games.

View PostRuufio, on 31 October 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

Yeah I've always used staff but now I've been wielding it whenever I'm running around which is a smart idea...

Changed it up a bit and got +650 Toughness now. Though, I did get killed the other day, regardless, by Cloak & Dagger, Steal and Backstab which didn't kill me. I already used Doom to try and heal up. Then he used the stolen 3s Fear, Heartseeker, Heartseeker, Heartseeker.

Epic display of skill there. That stolen Thief Fear needs to be 1s IMO, it's AOE. The only AOE fear we have is 1s long so them stealing a 3s fear from us doesn't even make sense.

Completely wrong, as a necro you have deathshroud fear, staff fear, traited fear when you are stunned/dazed/feared/whatever, when reviving an ally you can cause fear if traited, and theres a rune set to cause fear.




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