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Thief Rebalancing hints by J. Sharp


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#1 Tumri

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 06:27 AM

Jonathan Sharp was in the mists today killing some dummies on a thief so I asked him if he was just playing or balance testing. He said he was balance testing. I asked if I could help since I thief a fair amount in tPvP and he said that Steal+CnD+Backstab combo damage was too strong. I said they should make Steal interrupt CnD. He said they were probably adding an aftercast to steal. I also asked what they thought of thief Shortbow and he said it's too strong. Later I said Warrior Rifle/Longbow seem underwhelming and he said there was a time when the two weapons were very overpowered and that it was mostly in the numbers and the meta.

#2 Korra

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 06:30 AM

This makes me sad.

Shortbow too powerfull....pls, Cluster bomb have and everest high arcing arch, if players cannot see it comming, well then they are bad players. And we have only 900 range, freaking 900....

Also Warrior rifle underwhelming? i got 1 shot from Killshot yesterday in WvW. GG Anet

#3 Tumri

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 06:49 AM

View PostKorra, on 01 November 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

This makes me sad.

Shortbow too powerfull....pls, Cluster bomb have and everest high arcing arch, if players cannot see it comming, well then they are bad players. And we have only 900 range, freaking 900....

Also Warrior rifle underwhelming? i got 1 shot from Killshot yesterday in WvW. GG Anet

WvW forums are that way ---------------->

From an sPvP perspective the problem with shortbow is that every single ability is very good. I can't think of any other weapon set with as much utility and effectiveness. The auto attack does fairly good damage with a bounce. The 2 is amazing for team fights because it's a 3-5k AoE blast finisher that's spammable. The 3 is a low cost backward evade and a cripple. The 4 is a poison field, which is again very very good for team fights because res denial wins games. The 5 is some of the best mobility in the game, especially on Kyhlo.

You can't balance classes based on WvW where it's simply a giant zerg. Certain things like AoE healing and portal bombing might be fixed for WvW but general PvP class balance should and will be based on sPvP.

The reason I personally find Rifle and Longbow underwhelming is their low auto attack damages and easily avoidable abilities. Killshot is very inefficient in tPvP because the time it takes to channel could have resulted in more damage by simply auto attacking with another weapon. It also has an obvious animation which makes blinding the shot or simply dodge rolling easy. The longbow overall seems to not do enough to warrant it's use in tPvP. It's just the numbers on the two weapons seem underwhelming in some areas and they don't have any amazing utility to warrant their use either. Whenever I think "I'll need a ranged option for this matchup" I immediately just swap to another class(typically thief with Shortbow + D/D). This is because a thief with a shortbow is a lot more useful to a team than a Warrior with a rifle or longbow. There's a reason no half decent Theif in sPvP goes without it.

Edited by Tumri, 01 November 2012 - 06:51 AM.


#4 Korra

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 07:09 AM

View PostTumri, on 01 November 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

WvW forums are that way ---------------->


Nerfs wont be applied only to pvp, Pve and WvW wll get affected too so dont come with that.

#5 off3nc3

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 07:16 AM

Korra is right everything will be applied and spread to spvp, tpvp , pve and wvw . I hope they will reconsider destroying steal it will render the class useless. Worst news ever if it's true if they think shortbow is too strong lawl god knows it might get a nerf too. This game will turn into wow at this rate having one good build per class the rest just not up to par.awfull

Edited by off3nc3, 01 November 2012 - 07:16 AM.


#6 Korra

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 07:40 AM

View Postoff3nc3, on 01 November 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

I hope they will reconsider destroying steal it will render the class useless.

Pretty much, burst builds will be useless, s/d builds almost with no burst... i guess anet wanst us to play HS spam or LDB spam.

#7 Aodan

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 07:45 AM

View PostTumri, on 01 November 2012 - 06:27 AM, said:

Jonathan Sharp was in the mists today killing some dummies on a thief so I asked him if he was just playing or balance testing. He said he was balance testing. I asked if I could help since I thief a fair amount in tPvP and he said that Steal+CnD+Backstab combo damage was too strong. I said they should make Steal interrupt CnD. He said they were probably adding an aftercast to steal. I also asked what they thought of thief Shortbow and he said it's too strong. Later I said Warrior Rifle/Longbow seem underwhelming and he said there was a time when the two weapons were very overpowered and that it was mostly in the numbers and the meta.

BWE2 the video of Knightmare in the VexX vs Anet vid illustrates what rifle could do.

#8 Eon Lilu

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 08:55 AM

Anet starting to catch up with what the majority have been saying for 2 months now?

#9 Ainyvel

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 09:43 AM

Whiners gonna whine -- till thief becomes absolutely useless piece of meat with 10k hp. I guess they really want everyone to roll "balanced" mesmers for pvp and warriors for pve.

GJ!

#10 EvilFree

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 09:47 AM

While I agree the damage could be toned down, we are glass cannons at the best of times.  With so little health I am find myself dying more than any of my other friends especially in zergs in wvw.

#11 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 09:55 AM

Be still, my beating heart!

#12 Psikerlord

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 09:57 AM

I play sb main thief and feel SB is probably a bit good in team fights. A reduction in the bow 1 bounce to just 1 bounce, not 2, might be fair enough (or some other variant). I hope they dont nerf SB for 1v1 combat however, it already lacks burst which is why most use it as a secondary only.

Re steal, on a raw balance basis, i do think the CnD-stealmug combo is too much too quick. If you nerf mug you nerf a lot of non-CnD builds. So my preference is to make steal non-instant cast. I would also hope they look at doing the same to non-thief burst taking similar advantage of instant cast skills comboing with long cast times: eg ele lightning flash & churning earth (I think), and I think engi has some kind of similar combo, i'm not sure. My point is, if they nerf thief in this way, i think similar nerfs should apply to other classes with similar exploits available through utilities. I wouldnt have a problem with that, probably would help game balance overall.

On the other hand steal is the thief's gimmick mechanic. I can also see the argument to leave it as is just because of that, and nerf mug instead. Pretty sure mug only appeared as of BWE2. Doubtless they can come up with some other cool trait.

Edited by Psikerlord, 01 November 2012 - 10:01 AM.


#13 Desert Rose

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:08 AM

Here's a post about the upcoming Thief changes in the official forum:

Quote

Just wanted you guys to know we’re looking at this specifically right now. We will probably bring down the raw spike DPS for some builds, but we’ll be careful to increase other areas to compensate.
https://forum-en.gui...ge/2#post601420

#14 Korra

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:17 AM

View PostDesert Rose, on 01 November 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

Here's a post about the upcoming Thief changes in the official forum:

https://forum-en.gui...ge/2#post601420

That makes me sad, if they nerf steal and SB they  better come up with some decent boost or the thief class will be rendered almost useless. 10k hp, no armor, and no dmg, is that what they want? oh wait we have stealth!

#15 Dirame

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:20 AM

View PostTumri, on 01 November 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

WvW forums are that way ---------------->

From an sPvP perspective the problem with shortbow is that every single ability is very good. I can't think of any other weapon set with as much utility and effectiveness. The auto attack does fairly good damage with a bounce. The 2 is amazing for team fights because it's a 3-5k AoE blast finisher that's spammable. The 3 is a low cost backward evade and a cripple. The 4 is a poison field, which is again very very good for team fights because res denial wins games. The 5 is some of the best mobility in the game, especially on Kyhlo.

It's funny how you complain that every skill on a particular weapon is very good and that, that is it's problem. To me, that's a weird thing to complain about. You can say the damage on the cluster bomb is too much, you can say the spammable evade is too strong but don't say that the problem with something is that it's good that's just... weird.

#16 Khamul

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:37 AM

Quote

10k hp, no armor, and no dmg

like elem

#17 Trei

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:46 AM

View PostAinyvel, on 01 November 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

Whiners gonna whine -- till thief becomes absolutely useless piece of meat with 10k hp. I guess they really want everyone to roll "balanced" mesmers for pvp and warriors for pve.
The definition of "absolutely useless" is pretty subjective depending who you are asking, what they play and most importantly, what their expectations are.

In most cases, things turn out to be neither absolute nor useless, only biased unrealistic expectations.

#18 The_Blades

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:51 AM

View PostKorra, on 01 November 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

That makes me sad, if they nerf steal and SB they  better come up with some decent boost or the thief class will be rendered almost useless. 10k hp, no armor, and no dmg, is that what they want? oh wait we have stealth!

Whya re you QQ'ing so much? Are you one of those that thinks thief is fine as it is?

#19 EvilFree

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:51 AM

View PostKorra, on 01 November 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

That makes me sad, if they nerf steal and SB they  better come up with some decent boost or the thief class will be rendered almost useless. 10k hp, no armor, and no dmg, is that what they want? oh wait we have stealth!

Stealth yes!  Everyone I know always jokes about how much stealth skills we have, in reality its very little and can only let us break away from combat and not half way accross the map!

#20 RecentlyTaken

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:53 AM

View PostKorra, on 01 November 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

This makes me sad.

Shortbow too powerfull....pls, Cluster bomb have and everest high arcing arch, if players cannot see it comming, well then they are bad players. And we have only 900 range, freaking 900....

Also Warrior rifle underwhelming? i got 1 shot from Killshot yesterday in WvW. GG Anet

Uh......... killshot is almost impossible to land without assistance.

Its a self root, with the longest channeling cast time in the game. It also has a stupidly obvious cast ANIMATION. The only way someone lands this on you is if you got chain snared/cced, in which case, you were probably gonna die killshot or not. Its completely useless in small/medium skermishes; at best you land it when some fool is AoEing the tower your standing on and doesn't roll away in time.

#21 Korra

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:56 AM

View PostThe_Blades, on 01 November 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

Whya re you QQ'ing so much? Are you one of those that thinks thief is fine as it is?

Im QQing because i dont wanna see my class which i spent over 500 hours nerfed to the ground because some baddies dont freaking know how to dodge.

And no dagger MH is retardedly OP, if you searched my threads before doing such an stupid sentence you would see i was actually suggesting a nerf for D AA and perhaps even make HS cost 1 more ini.

View PostRecentlyTaken, on 01 November 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

Uh......... killshot is almost impossible to land without assistance.

Its a self root, with the longest channeling cast time in the game. It also has a stupidly obvious cast ANIMATION. The only way someone lands this on you is if you got chain snared/cced, in which case, you were probably gonna die killshot or not. Its completely useless in small/medium skermishes; at best you land it when some fool is AoEing the tower your standing on and doesn't roll away in time.

It was in a siege, i was minding my own bussines spamming cluster bombs (since we dont have enough raneg in any other AA) and suddenly i looked up and i saw a Warrior pointing at me with killshot, i tried to dodge but it was too late ahaha

#22 Eon Lilu

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 11:13 AM

Quote

"Just wanted you guys to know we’re looking at this specifically right now. We will probably bring down the raw spike DPS for some builds, but we’ll be careful to increase other areas to compensate."

Awesome, no more thieves killing players in 2 seconds after stealthing, there going to actually have to use player skill and fight. :)

Now we will be able to tell the difference between good player theives and bad one's. :P

Now all they need to do is fix stealth bugs where on other's screens it looks like perma stealth, your taking damage but nothing is actually attacking you.....

Edited by Eon Lilu, 01 November 2012 - 11:22 AM.


#23 Ainyvel

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 11:26 AM

Things that glass cannon thief simply can't kill at this point: mesmers, good warriors/guardians, condition engies. I prefer to avoid combat with those when I run that build (I'm running condition p/d for most of the time atm), unless they starting running away instead of taking me head on. Head-to-head fight with good warrior will get you stunned for all of the battle, guardian will just kite you with staff, engies have awesome escape options which buy them enough of time to get you downed, and mesmers... well they are mesmers. Nerf thiefs - they won't be able to hold against eles, rangers, and necros as well.

Edited by Ainyvel, 01 November 2012 - 11:27 AM.


#24 General Typhus

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 11:29 AM

With some luck thieves will get the "TO THE GROUND" treatment that necros did during beta.

#25 off3nc3

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 11:56 AM

View PostGeneral Typhus, on 01 November 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

With some luck thieves will get the "TO THE GROUND" treatment that necros did during beta.
Try not to post anymore if you dont bring anything constructive to the thread. Everyone knows that good thieves are a dime a dozen nowdays. People invested alot of time into their characters such as myself and for what ? People who play hotjoin and are new to pvp cry about it everyday on the official forum and now worst case scenario our class will be destroyed. Who cares about the beta ? its ancient history this is live these nerfs will affect everything pve , pvp , wvw. Think before you post.

Edited by off3nc3, 01 November 2012 - 12:00 PM.


#26 General Typhus

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 12:08 PM

View Postoff3nc3, on 01 November 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

Try not to post anymore if you dont bring anything constructive to the thread. Everyone knows that good thieves are a dime a dozen nowdays. People invested alot of time into their characters such as myself and for what ? People who play hotjoin and are new to pvp cry about it everyday on the official forum and now worst case scenario our class will be destroyed. Who cares about the beta ? its ancient history this is live these nerfs will affect everything pve , pvp , wvw. Think before you post.

Ah yes, your post complaining about mine is infinitely more relevant to the original post.

#27 Rerroll

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 12:19 PM

Thief's damage right now is not balanced at all, no one wants a game where players can-one shot the enemy. Only reducing the damage would be a huge nerf but they said other stats will be increased, so where is the problem? After the changes you will have to put some effort in your kills and you will probably survive longer.


Right now the thief is:
-> spam combo. Did your enemy die?
  -> YES: you win
  -> NO: you lose

Mechanics like this destroy PvP, and im happy to see devs want to fix it.

Edited by Rerroll, 01 November 2012 - 12:21 PM.


#28 Malgonus

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 12:26 PM

Here's a hint: play a thief through 80 before making judgement. IMHO, hitting a target dummy does not seem to be a good testing method. My main is a warrior and I hated thiefs, so I decided to roll one. Yes they are a DPS class and hit hard, but they have very low armor and health. Game developer ruin games by listening to whiners. Hope Anet doesn't change a thing.



#29 Vayra86

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 12:44 PM

It's baffling how players who have invested many hundreds of hours in a single prof have the scope and knowledge of all the other profs to make all these statements about how weak their own prof is.

It becomes funny when said players consider themselves very good and the rest of the 'standard players' are cattle too dumb to dodge or press the right button.

Stop thinking you own the world and the knowledge within it. Profs are not that grossly unbalanced as you make it out to be.

Pathetic.

#30 Dirame

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 12:47 PM

I think Anet is trying to balance the game with "escape chance" in mind. If someone can hit a tanky character and drop them within seconds with a very little window to escape, that's seems a bit odd when you look at it and I think Anet is trying to look at how to balance burst with escape chance. This is why I think 100B hasn't been nerfed (because you have several chances to escape), this is why I think they allowed stun breakers to be used when turned hit by basilisk venom.

I think to nerf bow, just make immobilize lock out all movement based skills apart from shadowsteps/teleports, reduce the damage of cluster bomb to 2-3k and we'll be sitting pretty.

Edited by Dirame, 01 November 2012 - 12:49 PM.





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