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Thief Rebalancing hints by J. Sharp


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#121 vengeance22

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:07 PM

I'm a glass cannon, I get 2-3 shotted but various classes and I 2-3 shot various classes, The crying I hear if from the people that are under geared or haven't yet learn how to play there class against a glass cannon build.

By saying this I don't feel that any class currently is OP, not warriors not thiefs or mesmers...sure some classes annoy the hell out of me or I have the WTF hit me moments but every class and skill has its counter and if you are not paying attention or just not a good enough player thats your own fault....these nerf/op threads are stupid.

#122 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:23 PM

View PostArcherHenchman, on 08 November 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

The game should be balanced around competitive play, not glory-farming mode.

Wait, are we still pretending that GW2 has a competitive mode?

#123 Psikerlord

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 02:14 AM

5v5 hotjoin is a must. keep the 8v8 if they like, but without 5v5 hotjoin the casual pvp players are going bye bye after a or two month. Been in the mists lately? numbers have shrunk dramatically in recent weeks. i loved this game originally but even i am getting to the stage of bleh and looking for the next game to spend some $$ on.

#124 Red_Falcon

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 03:00 AM

View PostTumri, on 01 November 2012 - 06:27 AM, said:

Jonathan Sharp was in the mists today killing some dummies on a thief so I asked him if he was just playing or balance testing. He said he was balance testing. I asked if I could help since I thief a fair amount in tPvP and he said that Steal+CnD+Backstab combo damage was too strong. I said they should make Steal interrupt CnD. He said they were probably adding an aftercast to steal. I also asked what they thought of thief Shortbow and he said it's too strong. Later I said Warrior Rifle/Longbow seem underwhelming and he said there was a time when the two weapons were very overpowered and that it was mostly in the numbers and the meta.

Hope you made that up, or J.Sharp is terrible at balance.

Volley hits for 10k, Killshot hits for 12k. Underwhelming?
Should they hit for 15-20k then? Lol.
Cluster bomb hits for much less, is much slower to shoot and the arc is so high it's a nobrainer to dodge.

I agree on steal aftercast tho, pre-charging CnD shouldn't be "intended".
I for one don't do it and want to see it gone.
If that's the case tho, there would be no need for damage nerf as the user has well-enough time to blow CDs or dodge.
Maybe a minor nerf to backstab, that's it.

#125 Tumri

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 04:09 AM

View PostRed_Falcon, on 09 November 2012 - 03:00 AM, said:

Hope you made that up, or J.Sharp is terrible at balance.

Volley hits for 10k, Killshot hits for 12k. Underwhelming?
Should they hit for 15-20k then? Lol.
Cluster bomb hits for much less, is much slower to shoot and the arc is so high it's a nobrainer to dodge.

I agree on steal aftercast tho, pre-charging CnD shouldn't be "intended".
I for one don't do it and want to see it gone.
If that's the case tho, there would be no need for damage nerf as the user has well-enough time to blow CDs or dodge.
Maybe a minor nerf to backstab, that's it.

Volley and Kill Shot hit for those numbers in WvW. We are talking about sPvP. Nobody gives a sh*t about class balance in WvW because of inflated and imbalanced stats. WvW by it's nature is zergy and imbalanced.

#126 Red_Falcon

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 04:33 PM

View PostTumri, on 09 November 2012 - 04:09 AM, said:

Volley and Kill Shot hit for those numbers in WvW. We are talking about sPvP. Nobody gives a sh*t about class balance in WvW because of inflated and imbalanced stats. WvW by it's nature is zergy and imbalanced.

Thief also doesn't gib anyone in a few sec in sPvP either, yet it's getting nerfed.
WvW performance does matter to Anet, realistically they aren't letting a class be god in WvW even if it's balanced in sPvP.

#127 Tumri

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 05:49 PM

View PostRed_Falcon, on 09 November 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

Thief also doesn't gib anyone in a few sec in sPvP either

I play Thief pretty much every game except the odd Forest matchup these days. Yes they do.

#128 Runkleford

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 06:21 PM

View PostRed_Falcon, on 09 November 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

Thief also doesn't gib anyone in a few sec in sPvP either, yet it's getting nerfed.


I don't know why people like you keep trying to deny this, it's not like no one can't make a thief and try it for themselves and that's what's people HAVE been doing. Why do you think there's so many thieves in sPVP now? A lot of them were like me trying out the thief to better learn how to counter them (and I have) but also stuck to the profession because it's simply a lot easier to play and farm glory with. Yes, you can gib players in seconds and when you can't you can run away to try again right after. You aren't fooling anyone. A lot of us play thieves too.

#129 Subtle

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 06:51 PM

I play a thief.
I also kill A LOT in wv3

A few very good points have been made around thief balance. Changes that I would like to see to bring BS thieves into line:

Mug to cause stealth debuff. <- This will knock 3 to 5k off the pure backstab build. And prevent the 20-30k total backstab spike.
Casting steal while channeling CnD cancels CnD - OR give Steal .5sec cast time with a noticable animation.
MOTHEROFGOD fix stealth culling - please, pretty please - I will even buy a few gems if you need the money to get this done.

These changes will help mitigate the 'insta kills'  and actually give people a chance.

#130 Knuckle Joe

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:30 PM

View PostProtoss, on 08 November 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

There's a few simple issues here:
1. in hot-join, you'll normally find people that aren't as serious about PvP, so they'll most likely make more mistakes
2. 8v8 results in a LOT of distraction

What this basically leads to is that in hot-join, thieves are much harder to counter. With that in mind, as long as hot-join stays 8v8, it's probably healthier for the state of the game to over-nerf thieves.

I see your point on 2, but I believe 1 is not valid. The game/classes shouldn't be nerfed to oblivion just to make it more casual-friendly. They should get good or maybe ANET should implement another arena for beginners (people below X wins, glory or other stuff like that would be able to join, obviously, based on some account wide stat so vets don't reroll and go trash everybody).

Edited by Knuckle Joe, 09 November 2012 - 10:31 PM.


#131 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 09:42 AM

View PostKnuckle Joe, on 09 November 2012 - 10:30 PM, said:

I see your point on 2, but I believe 1 is not valid. The game/classes shouldn't be nerfed to oblivion just to make it more casual-friendly. They should get good or maybe ANET should implement another arena for beginners (people below X wins, glory or other stuff like that would be able to join, obviously, based on some account wide stat so vets don't reroll and go trash everybody).

The problem is how easy it is to play a thief and how it doesn't take as little skill, as it takes to play him, to counter him.
The thief needs to lose some power, it needs to become less retard-friendly (or, if it stays as retard-friendly, it needs to lose a LOT of power) and hot-join needs to become 5v5. Without that, the thief is constantly going to cause issues.

#132 ZigKid3

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 08:46 PM

I keep seeing screenshots of thief damage dealing about 5k per mug, 5k per CnD, and 10k-20k per backstab.

I wanted to test this out in the heart of the mists on the dummy golems. However I seem to be hitting for about 3k per mug, 3k per CnD, and 6k per backstab. Why?

Edited by ZigKid3, 10 November 2012 - 08:47 PM.


#133 Cheddarpuma

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 10:55 PM

View PostRunkleford, on 09 November 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

I don't know why people like you keep trying to deny this, it's not like no one can't make a thief and try it for themselves and that's what's people HAVE been doing. Why do you think there's so many thieves in sPVP now? A lot of them were like me trying out the thief to better learn how to counter them (and I have) but also stuck to the profession because it's simply a lot easier to play and farm glory with. Yes, you can gib players in seconds and when you can't you can run away to try again right after. You aren't fooling anyone. A lot of us play thieves too.

Agreed, sPvP is plagued with thieves, this is how you can tell that thieves need some sort of rebalancing whether they reduce damage on this or put an after-cast on this or whatever. Evidence:


Posted Image

Edited by Cheddarpuma, 10 November 2012 - 10:55 PM.


#134 ArcherHenchman

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 05:09 AM

View PostZigKid3, on 10 November 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

I keep seeing screenshots of thief damage dealing about 5k per mug, 5k per CnD, and 10k-20k per backstab.

I wanted to test this out in the heart of the mists on the dummy golems. However I seem to be hitting for about 3k per mug, 3k per CnD, and 6k per backstab. Why?
Because people take screenshots of big numbers.

You stumble upon a situation where a thief has 25 stacks of might and you have vuln? Dang, son, its time to printscreen some numbers. The 3k+3k+6k is about right for most builds. Light armor running full glass will take something closer to 4k+4k+8k, though.

#135 syndicates

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 05:34 AM

Thief's damage shouldn't be nerfed at all. In fact, the combo doesn't even kill if the other player is spec'd for defense or have 1 defensive mechanism. The only reason why Thief's are so called 2second killing people is because the victim is at fault for spec'ing glass cannon as well.

And WvW damage > PvP damage so it's more noticeable in WvW, but there's no excuse for players to blame the nature of the thief when they themselves are at fault for either:

1. Not having any invulnerable/protection skill. Don't bs me, every class has a method of mitigating damage.

2. Trying to be glass cannons themselves. Yeah, in WvW thief's can kill other glass cannons if they don't expect it but who's fault is that really? The thief for being smart and targetting glass players? Or the idiot that decided to go glass.

To put it simply, I'm a thief running around with 12k hp and maximized damage potential as the tradeoff. If you can't handle my combo, you just lack the skill like players dying to Warriors 1000blades combos.

#136 Shinimas

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 11:15 PM

Some people's logic just baffles me.

"I'm a Thief and I spec glass cannon. You also spec glass cannon? Lol what a noob."

And it doesn't even matter. Sure, you don't kill tanks in one combo, woop-di-doo, so that's balance? You just do 1 chain, CnD and BS again.

#137 Psikerlord

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 01:37 AM

View Postsyndicates, on 11 November 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

To put it simply, I'm a thief running around with 12k hp and maximized damage potential as the tradeoff. If you can't handle my combo, you just lack the skill like players dying to Warriors 1000blades combos.

Avoiding the instant 900 range CnD precast steal-mug opening combo for about 7-11K (with the recent 15% signet change) is nothing like avoiding the well telegraphed warrior's hundred blades combo. Avoiding this thief opener is mostly luck for most builds - not including of course other setups likely to be nerfed, such as guardian bunker/ ele water healing bunker.

A good BS burst thief will not miss his opener because you attempt to pre-emptively dodge or pop your block. The thief will simply let you waste those, then hit you. I'm hoping to see a short say .5 sec cast time added to steal in the upcoming patch. That would go a long way to giving other glass cannons a (meaningful) fighting chance.

Edited by Psikerlord, 12 November 2012 - 01:47 AM.


#138 Dexsoul

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 03:59 AM

View Postsyndicates, on 11 November 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

derp

/facepalm

I bet all thieves win because they are ninjas and have a sixth sense when it comes to reflexes.

Saving quotes for prosperity purposes, some are "World of Roguecraft" material worthy.

Quote

The only reason why Thief's are so called 2second killing people is because the victim is at fault for spec'ing glass cannon as well.

Quote

Trying to be glass cannons themselves. Yeah, in WvW thief's can kill other glass cannons if they don't expect it but who's fault is that really? The thief for being smart and targetting glass players? Or the idiot that decided to go glass.


#139 sanctuaire

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 04:39 AM

since you already started it with the guardian skill;

do a complete pve-pvp split like you were also forced to do in gw1 anet.
less balancing hassles for you guys in the long run.

.

#140 VanderBeltLegacy

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 05:31 AM

View PostKhamul, on 01 November 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

like elem
your joking right?????

Ele=Round up as much as possible(using staff+air speed boost skill)=use skill 2 on staff fire+arcane shield+arcane wave(aura of might boon)+arcane blast(burning foes), self heal(if needed), finish off any stragglers with skill 1(9/10 times=no stragglers) and thats the EASY method to tank spanking with ele's,
and next to engineers were one of the HIGHEST numbers in damage.
PvP=run D/D + utility defence to clean up quick and not be squish, and work out how to use trait's properly+combo armor, before claiming such utter crap.

now i could sit here and list the things i can do with n ele.

#141 syndicates

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 07:59 AM

View PostDexsoul, on 12 November 2012 - 03:59 AM, said:

/facepalm

I bet all thieves win because they are ninjas and have a sixth sense when it comes to reflexes.

Saving quotes for prosperity purposes, some are "World of Roguecraft" material worthy.

Damn you nerdy.

View PostPsikerlord, on 12 November 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

Avoiding the instant 900 range CnD precast steal-mug opening combo for about 7-11K (with the recent 15% signet change) is nothing like avoiding the well telegraphed warrior's hundred blades combo. Avoiding this thief opener is mostly luck for most builds - not including of course other setups likely to be nerfed, such as guardian bunker/ ele water healing bunker.

A good BS burst thief will not miss his opener because you attempt to pre-emptively dodge or pop your block. The thief will simply let you waste those, then hit you. I'm hoping to see a short say .5 sec cast time added to steal in the upcoming patch. That would go a long way to giving other glass cannons a (meaningful) fighting chance.

The entirety of the combo relies on backstab being in the right position as well so yes, you can actually avoid/mitigate the damage while the thief is attempting to position his backstab properly. The only times thief have this combo easy is due to the victim running away from the thief to begin with or totally facing the other direction which just comes down to the victim's inability to look at their surroundings. The combo excels in zerg fights where players are too distracted by other players, but we can say that any build spec'd for glass would excel in that field as well if a player is distracted by other threats like pistol whip / 1000blades / dagger elementalists / and god forbid mesmers.

The point I'm trying to stress out is that the combo isn't as amazing as it seems. If it's new to a player then sure it would amaze them, but after getting hit by it a couple times the player should've already recognized the pattern.

Guardian? Free block and retaliation.
Ranger? Shortbow disabling shot or transfer the damage to your pet.
Warrior? Built-in endure pain as well as utility endure pain and probably won't die from the entire combo to begin with.
Elementalist? Mist form, Arcane Shield.
Engineer? Invuln skill (whichever makes them miniature)
Necro? 2 Forms which gives them an entire separate life pool.
Thief? Blinding powder field or just pop your shadow signet since it blinds from a mile away.

#142 Psikerlord

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 10:01 AM

I agree backstab is not a problem. The full combo is quite avoidable with a stunbreaker.

#143 Shaynaro

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 10:39 AM

View Postsyndicates, on 12 November 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

The combo excels in zerg fights where players are too distracted by other players, but we can say that any build spec'd for glass would excel in that field as well if a player is distracted by other threats like pistol whip / 1000blades / dagger elementalists / and god forbid mesmers.

The point I'm trying to stress out is that the combo isn't as amazing as it seems. If it's new to a player then sure it would amaze them, but after getting hit by it a couple times the player should've already recognized the pattern.
Leaving aside quickness, that can turn almost any spec of any class in to a beast - pistol whip was undeservedly nerfed while quickness was the culprit - I will try to make some points.
The fact that most (or all) thieves in paid tPVP run backstab build speaks more then whatever you or any thief will say. The problem is not even backstab itself, the problem is the ability to run full glass cannon with insane survability.
In the current game, I feel there are 2 main offender DPS specs that currently make the PVP kind of bitter: power dagger/dagger thief and power shatter mesmer.Both of those specs ignore HP/toughness completely, while still having great survability, but with the added punch of doing good to insane damage to anything but a bunker ( the other beast of GW2 tPVP )

Power dagger/dagger, with the ability to jump in and out of combat trough stealth and many teleports,  bringing any of the opponent's team DPSers to 20-30% HP in less then 5 seconds without much effort/CDs. This instantly forces him to go defensive or even go down from some additional AoE. Trying to get a focus kill on a good thief is pretty impossible. As soon as he is targeted he will stealth, infiltrator's arrow etc. Probably the only reliable counter to a backstab thief is another backstab thief.

Shatter mesmer is the lesser evil brother of the power dagger/dagger thief, with the ability to leap in to combat ( though 600 range ) and out of combat ( staff #2 ) and bring good punches to a target. Shatter mesmers replace the many sources stealth and dodges of the thief with invulnerability ( distortion, blurred frenzy ) and clones deception. Their damage can be avoided a bit easier and it is not as huge, but compensate by bringing time warp & portal.

I would like to add one special category here:
Leaping Death Blossom build. Most thieves will laugh at me for including this here, tough luck - you can pat yourselves on the back and yell L2P all you want. While a good team fighter in crowded places ( esp. clocktower, henge ), I feel the main issue is his certainty of never dying associated with the spec. The combination of dodges and stealth will make sure he will win any 1v1 and stand his ground or kill most 1v2s. Sure it takes longer, but you do win. You will lose any battle against this build unless you have 2-3 condition removals that you can rotate, while having 0 chances of winning.  You are better off going to another node and try to help there then try to defend.

P.S. I'm a power shatter mesmer.

Edit:

View Postsyndicates, on 11 November 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

Trying to be glass cannons themselves. Yeah, in WvW thief's can kill other glass cannons if they don't expect it but who's fault is that really? The thief for being smart and targetting glass players? Or the idiot that decided to go glas

So if the thief is running glass cannon he is smart. If the target is running glass cannon he is an idiot. Makes sense, I now can clearly see the average Joe thief player mentality. Simply embarrassing..

Edited by Shaynaro, 12 November 2012 - 04:42 PM.


#144 The Primo

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 06:56 PM

Not perfect or anything but this is quite a bit of damage in a short period of time.



It's funny because his thief scorpion wire actually saved me from getting backstabbed.  Obviously we were testing so I just stood there but imo the steal, CnD, backstab is pretty much unavoidable if you're doing something else at the time.  Extra lol for the air sigil proccing a 1400 lightning strike.

Edited by The Primo, 12 November 2012 - 07:06 PM.


#145 Shinimas

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 08:19 PM

Quote

Leaping Death Blossom build. Most thieves will laugh at me for including this here, tough luck - you can pat yourselves on the back and yell L2P all you want.

It's commonly known to be one of the most ridiculous builds in the game. The so called "Bacon Winged Unicorn" build.

As I has been saying for a long time, the burst isn't the only problem with the Thief, it's the combination of damage, stealth and evades.

#146 Condiments7

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 02:56 AM

I think both sides are exaggerating their claims(as usual). Thief burst damage really is over the top at the moment regardless of what thief players will protest. Glass cannons should be able to do high damage, but thief's burst is way too front-loaded with minimal effort on the player's part. Its obvious this was never meant to be a part of mug+steal's original intention, as the animation "tell" for this ability is non-existent. It needs to be adjusted possibly with haste as well.

I, however, take issue with people claiming has thief INSANE survivability. Thief's do have plenty ways to avoid damage with stun breaks, and stealth, however, they are the squishiest class in the game when actually taking damage. A few seconds of straight coordinated burst and the thief will be dead unless he spams evades with shortbow/endurance. Unless he drops into stealth or retreats completely, he will die. So lets keep this in perspective, the thief class is powerful, but not THAT powerful.

Also I'm a little worried about shortbow nerfs. Any significant nerfs to this weapon set will be a nerf across ALL specs regardless if they're specced glass or not. No thief worth is salt is going to have anything but a shortbow in his secondary slot, and if they nerf the damage too much, you'll have to spec glass anyways to get anything damage wise out of it. No one is going to drop it because of the utility the weapon provides(blast finisher, poison field, teleport, evade). This is also THE thief option for doing anything is a larger team fight. Stealth won't save you from the massive amount of AOE damage and conditions that rain down when multiple players throw down,  and a thief isn't going to be engaging directly in that.

Edited by Condiments7, 13 November 2012 - 02:57 AM.


#147 Wifflebottom

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 03:05 AM

View Postsyndicates, on 11 November 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

Thief's damage shouldn't be nerfed at all. In fact, the combo doesn't even kill if the other player is spec'd for defense or have 1 defensive mechanism. The only reason why Thief's are so called 2second killing people is because the victim is at fault for spec'ing glass cannon as well.

And WvW damage > PvP damage so it's more noticeable in WvW, but there's no excuse for players to blame the nature of the thief when they themselves are at fault for either:

1. Not having any invulnerable/protection skill. Don't bs me, every class has a method of mitigating damage.

2. Trying to be glass cannons themselves. Yeah, in WvW thief's can kill other glass cannons if they don't expect it but who's fault is that really? The thief for being smart and targetting glass players? Or the idiot that decided to go glass.

To put it simply, I'm a thief running around with 12k hp and maximized damage potential as the tradeoff. If you can't handle my combo, you just lack the skill like players dying to Warriors 1000blades combos.
So thieves are allowed to spec completely glass but if a non-thief specs as a glass cannon they're stupid? I just want you to recognize the idiocy of your entire statement.

#148 ltkAlpha

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:26 PM

View PostKorra, on 01 November 2012 - 07:09 AM, said:

Nerfs wont be applied only to pvp, Pve and WvW wll get affected too so dont come with that.

sure, changes will apply to all formats, but from a balancing point of view you need to pick the one format that is most sensitive to changes and balance for it. gw1 was balanced around guild matches and HoH (which, admittedly, left 4v4 arenas with some really weird builds), in gw2 you have to balance for 5v5.

balance in WvW doesn't even enter into it, as it is imbalanceable by definition, even only due to the way server matches work. whether one loses a duel or two in WvW could hardly be more irrelevant, invisible armies and hugely different player numbers and all.

and if you ask about balance in PvE I wouldn't know what you're talking about (and I'm pretty sure you wouldn't either).

#149 Korra

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 01:24 PM

View PostltkAlpha, on 13 November 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

sure, changes will apply to all formats, but from a balancing point of view you need to pick the one format that is most sensitive to changes and balance for it. gw1 was balanced around guild matches and HoH (which, admittedly, left 4v4 arenas with some really weird builds), in gw2 you have to balance for 5v5.

balance in WvW doesn't even enter into it, as it is imbalanceable by definition, even only due to the way server matches work. whether one loses a duel or two in WvW could hardly be more irrelevant, invisible armies and hugely different player numbers and all.

and if you ask about balance in PvE I wouldn't know what you're talking about (and I'm pretty sure you wouldn't either).

View PostltkAlpha, on 13 November 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

sure, changes will apply to all formats, but from a balancing point of view you need to pick the one format that is most sensitive to changes and balance for it. gw1 was balanced around guild matches and HoH (which, admittedly, left 4v4 arenas with some really weird builds), in gw2 you have to balance for 5v5.

balance in WvW doesn't even enter into it, as it is imbalanceable by definition, even only due to the way server matches work. whether one loses a duel or two in WvW could hardly be more irrelevant, invisible armies and hugely different player numbers and all.

and if you ask about balance in PvE I wouldn't know what you're talking about (and I'm pretty sure you wouldn't either).

Split skills. Solved.

I donta sk balance in PvE. ofc not, pve doesn't matter. But the thing is a lot of people here and in the original forums complained about getting ownd in seconds in WvW by a thief which i think is bullshit since as you said WvW is imbalanced by definition., so they are not only nerfing from a spvp point of view as you stated.

#150 ltkAlpha

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 02:25 PM

View PostKorra, on 13 November 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

Split skills. Solved.

I donta sk balance in PvE. ofc not, pve doesn't matter. But the thing is a lot of people here and in the original forums complained about getting ownd in seconds in WvW by a thief which i think is bullshit since as you said WvW is imbalanced by definition., so they are not only nerfing from a spvp point of view as you stated.

ideally, I agree, but that would mean that the ANet team will need to balance twice, so to speak, and I'd rather see them working on other, higher priority stuff like personal and team rankings, tiered arenas, etc.
as I've stated elsewhere, I wouldn't even try sPvP in its current form after what I've read about it. once they've achieved a healthy competitive system I'd be all for it, although if they keep working on the bigger issues of WvW and keep fixing bugs in the meantime I don't think that community will mind balance in the strict sense all that much.




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