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WvW - Invader's vs Berserker's


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#1 Dominox

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 09:58 AM

Playing an ele in wvw i refuse to go full glass cannon, due to our low toughness and vitality. Thankfully invader's armor can help us out here, but i fear that i might loose too much precision (crit chance) - so i need some thoughts on how to mix and match invaders with berserkers.


Please note that i did not include jewels into the calculation, because i will go for exq ruby anyway.

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#2 Featherman

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:28 PM

You can try and mix and match Knights/Valkyrie and use boon duration for higher fury duration on weapon swap to make up for the low precision. This works best with either D/D or S/D. With staff you rarely change out of fire.

You can also kights/zerker to maintain a decent crit rate but then you'd be stuck an abysmal HP pool.

In my opinion, critical s are overrated for everything but staff. Go full soldiers masterworks gear (with valk jewels if if you can't find soldiers). Even with a staff you'll be just as effective against siege if you wear full soldiers and you'll still be able to hit decently.

#3 bieberfanxoxo

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 06:18 AM

I play a glass staff build 30 30 0 0 20 but gear stats are not glass.

Zerker chest: good pre/crit%
Pants/shoulders: knights
Boots/gloves/helm: invader

Runes: ruby: pre/crit%

Weapon: valk

Back: pre/crit%
Amulet: valk
2earrings/1ring: invader
Ring: knight

Jewels: exquisite beryl: hp/crit%

Food: butternut squash soup(?): 100pre/10%crit dam

Oil: tooltip is bugged and it gives the 6%/4% of tough/vit to precision not power so this helps the crit rate massively.

Stats

3400attack > 3600+ with bloodlust stacks and can reach 4k+ with fire might trait
29% crit base, oil/food brings this to 40%, very healthy number
80% crit damage
1450ish toughness
16-17k hp

Loving this stat build atm. I hurt things and I can survive all the dumb full zerker builds out there right now.

#4 Jennifer

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 08:20 AM

View Postbieberfanxoxo, on 09 November 2012 - 06:18 AM, said:

I play a glass staff build 30 30 0 0 20 but gear stats are not glass.

Zerker chest: good pre/crit%
Pants/shoulders: knights
Boots/gloves/helm: invader

Runes: ruby: pre/crit%

Weapon: valk

Back: pre/crit%
Amulet: valk
2earrings/1ring: invader
Ring: knight

Jewels: exquisite beryl: hp/crit%

Food: butternut squash soup(?): 100pre/10%crit dam

Oil: tooltip is bugged and it gives the 6%/4% of tough/vit to precision not power so this helps the crit rate massively.

Stats

3400attack > 3600+ with bloodlust stacks and can reach 4k+ with fire might trait
29% crit base, oil/food brings this to 40%, very healthy number
80% crit damage
1450ish toughness
16-17k hp

Loving this stat build atm. I hurt things and I can survive all the dumb full zerker builds out there right now.
what is your build?xD

#5 Ephex

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 04:28 PM

Pretty good stat build, but getting full exotic trinkets/jewels and stacks of consumables may be expensive for some people. Curious what your Crit rate/dmg would be in full Berserker because Crit stats scale your dps exponentially.

#6 bieberfanxoxo

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:36 PM

View PostJennifer, on 09 November 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

what is your build?xD

Like I said above, but I'll add traits although they're no brainers really 30fire(VI, VII, XII), 20air(III, VI), 20arc(V, VIII)

View PostEphex, on 09 November 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

Pretty good stat build, but getting full exotic trinkets/jewels and stacks of consumables may be expensive for some people. Curious what your Crit rate/dmg would be in full Berserker because Crit stats scale your dps exponentially.

It may be expensive but to get really balanced stats and add in alot of survivability while keeping high dps stats it's more than worth the costs. In full zerks you can get crit rate over 50% easily, crit% over 100% and with the might stacks from fire trais XII I was getting over 4200attack quite easily, even push it up to 4400 quite often.

The dps in it was amazing and I loved it, but running with like 12-13k hp, no toughness, you get hit by a vet archer on a tower/keep wall for average 4k and the tiniest splashes of damage, someone pops offensive cooldowns, it just hurt too much and I found myself adapting to a playstyle of holding back alot more, running for cover alot more and I didn't really enjoy it as much as I am now. I like being offensive, charging in backing up my group, being able to cast a couple of big aoes while taking hits and I can do that in this stat setup. My MS still can crit for 5k on 80s, my IS and Eruption both can hit high 5-6k.

Full zerk is nice but yeah I run in a 5man virtually 99% of the time, sometimes solo s/d(which my current set works for too) and I'm just more of a threat dispite not having an extra 20% crit damage and 200ish power. I can't show you the stats sorry because my zerkers was all transmuted in a gear set I really like so once I found these stats I changed them over to the new visuals and no longer have the gear.

#7 Red_Falcon

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:38 PM

My gf got knight's armor/wep and zerk jewels, no issues.

#8 Ephex

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 08:39 PM

View Postbieberfanxoxo, on 09 November 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

......
I'd probably agree too, if I tried the setup. One little thing though, Sigil of Battle is actually no good for Staves because in Power/Crit builds, every damage skill but Fire is pretty useless, so you just don't really attune dance often. Sigil of Fire counts for 10-14% of your DPS I've heard (a bit less since you're not pure dmg stats) but even more if you hit multiple targets. This is probably more important in dungeons than in WvW, where you'd want to snare players with Water/Air/Earth often, but you'd still be doing almost 0 dmg out of Fire. The sad truth.

Edited by Ephex, 10 November 2012 - 08:40 PM.


#9 bieberfanxoxo

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 10:13 PM

View PostEphex, on 10 November 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

I'd probably agree too, if I tried the setup. One little thing though, Sigil of Battle is actually no good for Staves because in Power/Crit builds, every damage skill but Fire is pretty useless, so you just don't really attune dance often. Sigil of Fire counts for 10-14% of your DPS I've heard (a bit less since you're not pure dmg stats) but even more if you hit multiple targets. This is probably more important in dungeons than in WvW, where you'd want to snare players with Water/Air/Earth often, but you'd still be doing almost 0 dmg out of Fire. The sad truth.

I was talking WvW purely, I rarely pve and have other pieces I can always slot in for more dps if I do, but yeah the stats I was talking about are my pvp stats and I assumed as he was talking invaders he might of been asking about a pvp perspective on the stats.

I'm not really sure if you directed this at me or not, but I don't use Sigil of Battle in staff dps spec and didn't ever say I did. The might stacks I'm talking about were from Pyro's *(Fire Trait XII) and correctly using blast finishers. Can easily hold around 12 stacks no probs without battle sigil.

As for no damage outside fire staff, that's a lie. My eruption and ice spikes both crit regularly for over 6k and considering you're always running around in air, switching to earth to drop eruption then straight to fire to drop lava font on top for the blast finisher does far better than the eles I see jumping straight into fire. I've tried battle with staff and changed rotation in wvw from air then using SF or LS to enter combat > water IS > earth Erupt > fire LF MS etc and you're actually pumping out some rather big burst and entering your main dps attunement with 10stacks of might(3x battle, 1xelemental attunement). This sigil however does less over prolonged fights, because you are right, main portion of damage is from fire, but to negate some of your biggest hitting abilities which are in other attunements is wrong.

#10 Ephex

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 07:57 AM

Oh that's why, I misread Bloodlust as Battle. Anyway to respond

View Postbieberfanxoxo, on 10 November 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

As for no damage outside fire staff, that's a lie. My eruption and ice spikes both crit regularly for over 6k and considering you're always running around in air, switching to earth to drop eruption then straight to fire to drop lava font on top for the blast finisher does far better than the eles I see jumping straight into fire. I've tried battle with staff and changed rotation in wvw from air then using SF or LS to enter combat > water IS > earth Erupt > fire LF MS etc and you're actually pumping out some rather big burst and entering your main dps attunement with 10stacks of might(3x battle, 1xelemental attunement). This sigil however does less over prolonged fights, because you are right, main portion of damage is from fire, but to negate some of your biggest hitting abilities which are in other attunements is wrong.
I strongly disagree with your theoretical rotation. Firstly, people don't stand still long enough to eat an Ice Spike or Eruption (they've probably been snared, were preoccupied, or are just bad if they do) especially if it's in small skirmish situation (less than 10v10). Secondly, to even reap the benefits of your Might finishers would mean you have to step into your own Lava Font. The only cases where this is even feasible is in small skirmishes, as defending from a tower or attacking one from below means you obviously can't step in range of your field. So while being able to Eruption combo your own Lava Font is sound on paper, in practice it is far too infrequent. Even if all you do is run with a small guild group of 10 and ninja cap Camps and do small group skirmishes, I'm positive you are missing almost every Eruption, and to even waste a Lava Font on the Eruption that already missed just for 3 Might is hardly worth it. You just don't Eruption, miss, and still put a Lava Font on it for Might. Even if you down someone and are baiting resses from the enemy, it's far better to just keep Font/Fireballing the body instead of wasting 5 seconds trying to land an Eruption + Lava Font. Unless you're playing against some absolutely terrible beginners with no field awareness, Eruption and Ice Spike should be pretty rarely used. In a large zerg-on-zerg open field skirmish, Meteors and Fonts are always going to do more, not to mention every auto attack skill that's not Fireball is pretty terrible. (Sidenote: Did you even know that Fireball can hit out of range, and that you can even aim your Fireball without a target to hit Trebuchets on top of cliffs 2000 range away?)

To address Sigils, we already know that Battle is bad for Staff in WvW because you just aren't attune dancing enough to make it worth. There is a thread in the PvE section where I thoroughly explain the opportunity costs of switching out of Fire in dungeons, and how the result is a huge loss of overall DPS. It might seem counterintuitive but attune dancing just to cast what you think are strong skills on CD doesn't necessarily make your rotation or DPS better. In WvW, whether wall defending or wall sieging, you're just not gonna want to find yourself out of Fire very often, as you need to keep pumping out those Lava Fonts/Meteors, and any swap to another attunement is 10-15 sec of not pumping Fonts. Ice Spike is only as good as it hits, which is not often because you definitely don't stay in Water enough to cast successive Ice Spikes, and also the aforementioned difficulty to hit with. Sigil of Bloodlust is mediocre, 250 of 3400 Attack is barely +7% of your DPS, and that's assuming you never even go down, as any moment you down is another entire stack of 25 to make up. Sigil of Fire provides constant additional hits (that also scale with Power/Crit) almost every 5 sec that can act as both burst and AoE (30% of 40% Crits seems like a small probability but you'll notice the Flame Burst just keeps firing off). In WvW where burst is key, Sigil of Fire hands down. No surprise Sigil of Fire has increased in price by about 200% (from 1g to 3g) over the past week or two.

Edited by Ephex, 13 November 2012 - 08:07 AM.


#11 bieberfanxoxo

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:46 AM

View PostEphex, on 13 November 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

snip

For small scale skirmish, s/d or d/d are far better to be using that staff and I'd swap to them when seeing any small encounter. As for mass zerg busting, fighting from walls, fighting onto walls then you really miss less eruptions and IS than you actually think, those bads following commanders are suckers for punishment and get demolished by these skills. And of course if eruption is missing you're not chucking a LF on top of it but that all comes down to situation.

As for sigils like I said I'm not arguing Fire. I use it on so many classes because it's awesome. But I always start with bloodlust and get the 25stacks, I have a spare staff with this, I also have a spare s/d set with bloodlust sigils for quick pve farming. You can down 5 mobs at a time so fast using s/d and with bloodlust on both weapons you only need to kill 13, it's not really hard or time consuming to regain if you die.




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