271 replies to this topic

[Lasur Arkinshade]

Sandpit, on 02 November 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

will it be a "you must have 5 people" content again? Not casual player friendly. I wonder how many people have never done a dungeon because they are so inaccessible for normal people and are only done by the hardcore.

Umm... so you appear to be implying that only abnormal people are capable of grouping with four other people.

I wasn't aware that 'casual' was synonymous with 'attention span of a skritt' nowadays.

Edited by Lasur Arkinshade, 03 November 2012 - 12:17 AM.

[Blixcoe]

clipbord, on 02 November 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

Make boss battle more engaging!, Cause apparently Anet's idea of a hard boss is just giving it a trillion health and kills you in like 2 hits.

^
this.

I am not hating on dungeons, but. The bosses aren't that unique and all. Giving them a lot of health and killing you in 2 hits isn't fun at all. Make them engaging, make them have different phases where they do different shit, and god forbid, make them achieveable without being downed after 2 hits and 25 bleeds after!
In Aion for example, your group had to actually plan out what to do before engaging the boss. I remember one of the bosses where two guys had to stand by two pressure plates in each corner of the room. When the boss got a hunger buff, the guy had to walk on the hunger pressure-plate to remove that buff. And the same when he got the thirst buff.

You had to stand on the platform for 10 seconds, and each second you got damage dealt to yourself. So you had to time that out too and spare your heals.

These are the kinds of dungeon bosses that actually make dungeons fun and engaging!

I also remember one called kromede's trial, which was a one-man instance. But my point is, in this dungeon you were re-living a persons life at one certain point. You were changed into this person, and with your normal skills, you got one of four unique kromede skills after each four bosses you killed. And when you faced the last boss, you had to use the four special skills at four key-points in the boss-fight, after downing him to those key-points with your normal skills.

And there were super-special skins that you could get if kromede (the final boss) looted a key for you. In his room there are several glass-cages with weapons in'em with special skins, and you used your key on one of these.

(sorry for this gigantic post, but ncsoft does a great job with dungeons. Anet should learn from them!)

Edited by Blixcoe, 03 November 2012 - 12:34 AM.

[Ualtar]

Sandpit, on 02 November 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

will it be a "you must have 5 people" content again? Not casual player friendly. I wonder how many people have never done a dungeon because they are so inaccessible for normal people and are only done by the hardcore.

Not sure if this is trolling or not...

However, I will answer it.  5 is the most casual group content ever!  Every MMO that I know of requires more then 5 people to do their group/dungeon/raid content.  LOTRO had dungeons types of things that were designed for 6 people, and raids were designed for 12.  Beyond that most other MMOs require 10,20 or more people.

[omar316]

Red_Falcon, on 02 November 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

Let's talk about it:

"Brand new type of dungeon to be added - gets harder the further you get in, really big with a ton of levels
New rewards to the game that are buried deep within the new dungeon.
Dungeon rewards are being actively worked on right now, and are also trying to make dungeons more fun to play."
- Colin

Huge endgame dungeon with a ton of levels, more reward and increasing challenge just 2 weeks away.

What do you think it'll be about?

About damn time I say.

I really really really hope it'd take like 4 to 5 hours to complete lol. And none of that make it harder by adding more HP and red circles bullshit please.

New mechanics? Dungeon specific tools to weaken and then kill boss? Like the Dredge golem in SE path 2. Some level of exploration, and maybe some level of class specific special abilities, like in TOR where if you had a say Slicer, you can open some new paths to take short cuts or skip some mobs or perform some other type of quest to progress.

I hope they give out some crafting recipes. Make the damn recipes something awesome, but avoid putting in shitty quantity of items like 250 lodestones or 45293423423523490823956 types of giant eyes or some obsucre crap.

Make recipes synergise to get an item like the Flaming sword, where you need a Cook to make the flaming tonic or something and then you need a weapon smith to make you 250 blades. One person could possible have all crafting tradeskill but knowing that some other guildy has it mained makes it all the more that he would be required to obtain this item.

Proper waypoints, or special modes of transport which, if it can be skipped, should not be troublesome or if they decide to make it a platformer put in ways to pass time. Like a Mining Cart on a rail way, where you get a ranged weapon to kill random mobs or even jump at certain intervals to make it cinematic and engaging.

[Shadowrose]

Think of a dungeon + jumping puzzle + monsters trying to knock you off the cliff.

lets do dis anet

[karekiz]

Not to be a party pooper but...

Looking around at all the bugs in dungeons then looking back at them working on a new dungeon (with a release date of November 15-18ish due to 3 day event to unlock the island).  This sounds like it will be bad.

I'm going to not get my hopes up too high after the SE/Arah bugs.

[Katreyn]

While it sounds exciting and I can't wait for something new.  I admit I am a little concerned.  Won't know till we try though.

Glad to see that they are trying to add more to "end game" if it is truly an end game dungeon.  I did dungeons a bit before, but don't really care for them in their current state; more so have no reason to do them.  So I'm curious about the dungeon reward system being improved.

I see incoming lots of rage too though, considering the amount that came out of the clock tower jumping puzzle. >.<

[garethporlest22]

As long as the mobs aren't made "more difficult" by increasing their health and damage..I might like this dungeon.  Maybe it will bring some fun for me.

[Knuckledust13]

I hope no one is getting their hopes too high, since we all know ArenaNet

[OdinWalhalla]

Red_Falcon, on 02 November 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

Let's talk about it:

"Brand new type of dungeon to be added - gets harder the further you get in, really big with a ton of levels
New rewards to the game that are buried deep within the new dungeon.
Dungeon rewards are being actively worked on right now, and are also trying to make dungeons more fun to play."
- Colin

Huge endgame dungeon with a ton of levels, more reward and increasing challenge just 2 weeks away.

What do you think it'll be about?

Really liking that this is exxactly how every dungeon should be, just not instanced so can hang inthere as long or as short as you want.

[Dokem]

I have some concerns about all this.

1. New dungeons before fixing the current ones? I don't know.
2. Difficulty vs annoying: We want hard dungeons but not annoying dungeons, a lot of people are talking about the HP of bosses and specially about the one shot KO mechanics. It's fine to have 1 one shot mechanic during a boss fight that you can identify easily, so if you eat it it's your fault. But right now I see that boss like to spam this kind of abilities and it's al about WP running. I must confese now runs are more smooth than before, like players are learning.
3. How can u improve the difficulty of a dungeon? More HP? More dmg to you? More complicated mechanics?

Because we know 1 thing for sure. Stats won't get better We have our endgame gear already. And I don't think ANet will decide to use the carrot on a stick gear model just like wow.

So if stats wont get better, I assume the bosses will have more HP and will have harder mechanics. If they abuse the HP thing it's going to be a pain really.

If stats won't get better, what are the rewards for doing this endgame dungeon? Better looking armor? A way to farm maybe Legendary armor? Gold? the more you get into de dungeon, the more you gain? I'd prefer gold rewards, lots of crafting mats and a way to farm good looking armor. Some example of rewards: skill points, mystic coins, jugs of karma, lodestones.

But there must be a way that we still want to do the other dungeons (beside the achievements).

Sorry the long post. These are my concerns. All I can say in defense of ANet is that for this Halloween they delivered. It was a fun event and the Clock Tower puzzle was amazing, was epic. So let's have a little faith here.

[jirayasan]

Dokem, on 03 November 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

I have some concerns about all this.

1. New dungeons before fixing the current ones? I don't know.

Collin said in the same interview that they are working on the old dungeons aswell. I don't know if that means the reward only or if they are adding more stuff to them or revamping.

[Runkleford]

Knuckledust13, on 03 November 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

I hope no one is getting their hopes too high, since we all know ArenaNet

Yes I know ANET and while some things about the game were not delivered, it's still one of the most fun MMOs that I've ever played. And by the way Knuckledust, every single post of yours is negative towards the game and ANET. Why the heck are you here? You contribute nothing except  to bash the game with any insignificant complaint that you can think of.

[Gilles VI]

Runkleford, on 03 November 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

Yes I know ANET and while some things about the game were not delivered, it's still one of the most fun MMOs that I've ever played. And by the way Knuckledust, every single post of yours is negative towards the game and ANET. Why the heck are you here? You contribute nothing except  to bash the game with any insignificant complaint that you can think of.

Don't feed the troll. You're only doing what he wants by replying to him.

[Eon Lilu]

It sounds like more of the eye of the north dungeons from Gw1, which is awesome because those were some of the best dungeons iv played in a game.

Just please Anet get some guild support into the game and social tools......its really screwing with growing a community / guilds.

[Mastruq]

This is a honest question so bear with me: What makes any dungeon hard without being called grindy, artificial difficulty (what is that even) or rng-bad?

To me patrolling enemies on long routes you have to account for, tight respawn for many (but not all) opponents so you have to be on your toes and cannot idle, abilities that one-shot you if you are not careful about your position (knocked off edges, dragged into a trap etc, powerful strikes that are clearly visible beforehand) would be the best way to do that. Adding easy jumping puzzles is a good idea (the difficulty coming from fighting during it). Unique conditions that are lethal of not removed (again, clear clues given beforehand).

But I've heard all of my suggestions called not difficult but only random or tedious in other threads/forums. So what do you think, what is difficult without provoking such complaints?

[Naglifar]

there is literally only one boss in this game I enjoy fighting against: the Ancient Giant in explorable Orr. At first it was hard, now it's still a fight that requires me to actually think.

[Gilles VI]

Mastruq, on 03 November 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

This is a honest question so bear with me: What makes any dungeon hard without being called grindy, artificial difficulty (what is that even) or rng-bad?

To me patrolling enemies on long routes you have to account for, tight respawn for many (but not all) opponents so you have to be on your toes and cannot idle, abilities that one-shot you if you are not careful about your position (knocked off edges, dragged into a trap etc, powerful strikes that are clearly visible beforehand) would be the best way to do that. Adding easy jumping puzzles is a good idea (the difficulty coming from fighting during it). Unique conditions that are lethal of not removed (again, clear clues given beforehand).

But I've heard all of my suggestions called not difficult but only random or tedious in other threads/forums. So what do you think, what is difficult without provoking such complaints?

That's what I wonder too. People want harder dungeons/encounters, but when given examples everything is bad.

• Lots of health = boring
  
• One shotting = ridiculous
  
• waypoint close by = mindless zerg dungeon
  
• waypoint far away = to hard/ridiculous
  
• lots of mobs = artificially difficult

And I'm sure I forgot some other mechanics in that list.

[Desert Rose]

Blixcoe, on 03 November 2012 - 12:23 AM, said:

I am not hating on dungeons, but. The bosses aren't that unique and all. Giving them a lot of health and killing you in 2 hits isn't fun at all. Make them engaging, make them have different phases where they do different shit, and god forbid, make them achieveable without being downed after 2 hits and 25 bleeds after!
In Aion for example, your group had to actually plan out what to do before engaging the boss. I remember one of the bosses where two guys had to stand by two pressure plates in each corner of the room. When the boss got a hunger buff, the guy had to walk on the hunger pressure-plate to remove that buff. And the same when he got the thirst buff.

You had to stand on the platform for 10 seconds, and each second you got damage dealt to yourself. So you had to time that out too and spare your heals.

These are the kinds of dungeon bosses that actually make dungeons fun and engaging!

Such scripted boss fights are fun and engaging the first few times you're doing them but eventually you can do them asleep and killing the trash mobs before the boss becomes more entertaining.
The best way to create boss fights that stay fun and engaging are ones where you not fight against a single foe but an entire group of veterans (so they are not immune to half of your abilities) with abilities to support each other and a good AI; such a boss fight will stay fun for far more runs than any scripted boss fight.

[omar316]

Gilles VI, on 03 November 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

That's what I wonder too. People want harder dungeons/encounters, but when given examples everything is bad.

• Lots of health = boring
  
• One shotting = ridiculous
  
• waypoint close by = mindless zerg dungeon
  
• waypoint far away = to hard/ridiculous
  
• lots of mobs = artificially difficult

And I'm sure I forgot some other mechanics in that list.

Lots of health IS boring when all you are required to do is press 1 and dodge red circles.
Now what is the purpose of increased health pool? Wasting our damn time.

One shotting is cheap and absolutely dumb way to extend a boss encounter when all he does is 1 shot on an auto attack.

Waypoint close by paired with 1 shotting and increased health pool is a no brainer we cant do jack shit lets just graveyard rush him.

Way point too far away, what is the pupose of the waypoint in the dungeon when you need walk for 5 mins without any encounters but just walking through a maze for bloody 5 mins. Artificial extension.

Lots of mobs : Lets put it this way, I cleared a room of 5 trash, I walk 3 steps and I clear another 5 trash of the same design, I walk 10 steps and then see the same 5 crap trash hindering my progress again.

Have you played WAR's ToVL? Perfectly placed mechanics which build up to a boss fight. Not random crap so that they waste your time.

[Quietus]

Runkleford, on 03 November 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

Yes I know ANET and while some things about the game were not delivered, it's still one of the most fun MMOs that I've ever played. And by the way Knuckledust, every single post of yours is negative towards the game and ANET. Why the heck are you here? You contribute nothing except  to bash the game with any insignificant complaint that you can think of.

A community made up of nothing but sycophantic bootlickers wouldn't do either Anet or the game any good. Imagine how long it would take them to make improvements to the game if everyone just turned a blind eye and said "No, no... Everything is just fine. No problems or annoyances here. Carry on...", while secretely or subconciously hating themselves for being abject liars.

If there are any issues with the game the developers need to be made aware of them. Of course it's preferable if any criticism put forward is of the constructive variety.

[Linfang]

If Anet is going to continue to make updates and expansions then why would you call a high level dungeon "End Game"?

Edited by Linfang, 03 November 2012 - 11:47 AM.

[bdatty]

Just a guess, maybe these so-called rewards are parts that we gain, if we collect enough and specific types as we advance, we can forge a new item? -shrug-

[Gilles VI]

omar316, on 03 November 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

Lots of health IS boring when all you are required to do is press 1 and dodge red circles.
Now what is the purpose of increased health pool? Wasting our damn time.

One shotting is cheap and absolutely dumb way to extend a boss encounter when all he does is 1 shot on an auto attack.

Waypoint close by paired with 1 shotting and increased health pool is a no brainer we cant do jack shit lets just graveyard rush him.

Way point too far away, what is the pupose of the waypoint in the dungeon when you need walk for 5 mins without any encounters but just walking through a maze for bloody 5 mins. Artificial extension.

Lots of mobs : Lets put it this way, I cleared a room of 5 trash, I walk 3 steps and I clear another 5 trash of the same design, I walk 10 steps and then see the same 5 crap trash hindering my progress again.

Have you played WAR's ToVL? Perfectly placed mechanics which build up to a boss fight. Not random crap so that they waste your time.

Why did you just repeat the things I summed up? And yea what is a difficult, challenging dungeon to you then? Please elaborate!

[Red_Falcon]

So then what's the kind of difficulty you would like to see?

[cyclopsje]

Lasur Arkinshade, on 03 November 2012 - 12:17 AM, said:

Umm... so you appear to be implying that only abnormal people are capable of grouping with four other people.

I wasn't aware that 'casual' was synonymous with 'attention span of a skritt' nowadays.

That last skritt part made me rofl!!!
Also not sure what he is on about grouping is so easy and come on hardcore only??? find 4 other players and go i say.

[Sandpit]

Ualtar, on 03 November 2012 - 01:04 AM, said:

Not sure if this is trolling or not...

However, I will answer it.  5 is the most casual group content ever!  Every MMO that I know of requires more then 5 people to do their group/dungeon/raid content.  LOTRO had dungeons types of things that were designed for 6 people, and raids were designed for 12.  Beyond that most other MMOs require 10,20 or more people.

I just find it odd where the whole of the game can be played solo, or easily with just one or two friends, and then dungeons require a party dynamic. The game has level scaling; yet the lower level dungeons can't be played with say two high level characters..

The thing about casual play is that your life doesn't revolve around the game, you still want to play it but you can't commit to a dedicatted time session, and that is a problem for the required party dynamic. If I am soloing a dungeon, or with a couple of frends, if something comes up and I have to leave, it's only me that get's affected, maybe my friends can continue. But in a dungeon designed to require 5 people, players have to commit where they can't. The result is that many players never get into these dungeons.

That's why I would like to see more flexibility, especially where a dungeon can be level scaled. I just find it odd to require 5 in a game that had no requirements anywhere else.

[Word Of Madness]

Sandpit, on 03 November 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

I just find it odd where the whole of the game can be played solo, or easily with just one or two friends, and then dungeons require a party dynamic. The game has level scaling; yet the lower level dungeons can't be played with say two high level characters..

The thing about casual play is that your life doesn't revolve around the game, you still want to play it but you can't commit to a dedicatted time session, and that is a problem for the required party dynamic. If I am soloing a dungeon, or with a couple of frends, if something comes up and I have to leave, it's only me that get's affected, maybe my friends can continue. But in a dungeon designed to require 5 people, players have to commit where they can't. The result is that many players never get into these dungeons.

That's why I would like to see more flexibility, especially where a dungeon can be level scaled. I just find it odd to require 5 in a game that had no requirements anywhere else.

There is no requirement to do dungeons. Remember this isn't an RPG with a co-op mode, it's an MMO, it's intended to be played with groups (Although you can still do your own thing). As you said, the whole of the game, except dungeons, can be played solo or in small groups. Why not have fun with those parts of the game and just ignore dungeons? It took me until after GW Nightfall before I even set foot in the FoW and UW areas, as they required a reasonably large time investment to complete.

GW2s dungeons are very casual friendly. Small 5 man teams are easy to form. The dungeon paths system allows time limited people just to spend half an hour on completing a single path, while those who have more spare time can have an hour or two's worth of fun doing all of the paths. Can't set aside 30 minutes to do a single dungeon path? So what? Go have fun doing something else with your friends. Pretend the dungeons don't even exist.

Edited by Word Of Madness, 03 November 2012 - 01:26 PM.

[Princess Fatora]

Quote

I just find it odd to require 5 in a game that had no requirements anywhere else.

"I just find it odd to require level 80 in a game where most maps are not level 80"
"I just find it odd to run around solo a WvWvW map, so I want a solo WvWvW map"
"I just find it odd that some crafting recipes require ectos when most do not."

SOME things require things that most things do not. This does not magically mean that those that do need to be changed. It just means that you can focus on, I don't know, everything else when you do not have what is required.

I'm a casual, I can't afford hours on a weekday for dungeons. Yet I manage to complete some on the weekend. I am now 22/25, only 3 paths left to do (Jotun, Seer in Arah and 3 in CoF). You see, I can't shedule my life around GW2. I can, however, play for a couple hours on a weekend. Very, very few casual people are absolutely unable to do this. Not even parents of newborn children have this problem.


Your problem is not that you are casual or that things require a group. If you are so casual that you can't even play for an hour without suddenly having to go out of the blue, then you likely don't have everything else done. Do that. ;P

Edited by Princess Fatora, 03 November 2012 - 01:40 PM.

[Ketingo Ketango]

The game's been out, what, two months, and we've had people bemoaning the lack of content. Halloween festivities, entirely new content on the way, and then Wintersday is just around the corner; all before the new year! I think they've done rather well for a game that's not been out much longer than ten weeks.