202 replies to this topic

[Sovelin]

sutaz, on 14 December 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

I thought they have fixed this bug, As when I remove the weap, Crit chance was decreased by 5%.

Does your weapon have precision as a stat? That may be why

[Venyarth]

Sovelin, on 11 December 2012 - 04:15 AM, said:

Ascalonian Catacombs vendor has just the staff you're looking for (same one I'm going for). BTW, love the build. I have the exotic armor and GS, just working on staff for now, then going to craft some jewels. Did 3 paths of AC today and was downed only once (stood on a spike trap). Thanks for the build!

Thanks for sharing this, I did not know about it. I just picked up the AC staff the other night and not only are the stats tweaked a bit better for my build, it looks really great too (especially at night)

Thanks for commenting and I'm glad you are enjoying the build!

[Snarvid]

You thinkin hammer post patch?

[kaldak]

Vigorous Precision now has a 5s cooldown.  I'm guessing that has a fairly significant effect on this build?

[Khlaw]

I've been running a poor-man's version of this build (don't have the runes yet) and I'm finding I spend a lot of time GS with the hammer as off-set.  The hammer is fun and strong, but the GS offers a lot of really nice utility, especially in a DE situation ( my main frame of reference).  Not sure how min-max-y that statement is, but I guess my answer to GS or hammer is...  Yes.

[youkai94]

What do you think about the new giver insignia with +healing power, +toughness and +boon duration (link DB) for this build? And what about the Rune of Altruism?

Edited by youkai94, 16 December 2012 - 10:40 AM.

[Venyarth]

kaldak, on 16 December 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

Vigorous Precision now has a 5s cooldown.  I'm guessing that has a fairly significant effect on this build?

I'm estimating it shaves <5% off your self heals, whether that is significant or not depends on your individual situation.

The main loss would be a 72 self-heal for applying the boon now has a 5s CD.

Vigor lets you dodge/roll a bit more frequently, (which heals you for 429 per roll via selfless daring), however, Vigor doesn't stack in effect, just in duration, and since Vigorous Precision gives a 5s buff with a 5 s CD,  you will still likely have Vigor up near constantly vs when having no CD on the effect if you are striking a target.  

It will effect you somewhat more if you are trying to dodge/roll away from the target to stay alive - and not being in melee range to hit the enemy/or be hit - as extended vigor duration (in a no Vigorous Precision CD scenario) would help in recharging that 3rd roll faster (the first two were already there/free with full endurance).  Just switch to Staff and use Empower in those situations.

The biggest auto-self-heal on attack is Empowering Might.  No cooldown, affects allies with might (and thus multiplies your self-heal), stacks in effect.  The other great self-heal is the GS #1 attack (Wrathful Strike on the 3rd swing).  Guaranteed boon for every enemy you hit.

Edited by Venyarth, 16 December 2012 - 04:41 PM.

[Venyarth]

Snarvid, on 15 December 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

You thinkin hammer post patch?

I didn't see any Hammer buffs or GS nerfs in this patch, unless I'm missing something?  GS compared to Hammer should still be the same pre-patch.

[Venyarth]

youkai94, on 16 December 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

What do you think about the new giver insignia with +healing power, +toughness and +boon duration (link DB) for this build? And what about the Rune of Altruism?

New Giver's Intericate Insignia

You give up precision and power by swapping out the (mostly) Knight's gear for this insignia.

See Post #60 (page 2) for my writeup on what you would lose out.

Mainly, you would self heal on attack much less (crit = apply empowering might = multiplied self-heal based on mobs and allies in range), and hit for much less damage.

In exchange you get some healing boost on the controllable skills dodge (1:1 effect of healing power:healed, the 2nd strongest effect.), and the signet heal (1.25 health per healing power, the strongest healing coefficient we have).  

Lyssa is not a boon duration build, so that benefit does not have as much synergy as say, a 30 point Vigor build for an additional 30% boon duration (this build has zero Vigor)

Basically, do you want more frequent, small self-heals on attack (and also do more damage/shorten the fight?) or larger powered, occassional healing skills?

I find that I prefer (and need) healing all the time, even if small, vs a bigger heal some of the time.  What works for you will depend on the situations you find yourself in, and your playstyle.

My Guardian friend I run with built an all +healing set.  It is strongest as support, but she says it hits like a wet noodle (i.e. weak damage), and her precision/crit/self-heal is greatly weakened too.  A Healing Power build has it's uses and strengths, but is so different from this build that it should probably be a new thread (because this build is about healing through fighting/crits, not through use of skills).

Rune of Altruism

Again, see above on losing out on precision in exchange for healing power.  Also, your heal/rune effect trigger is only upon use of the #6 skill and nothing else. (otherwise it would be way overpowered). Thus, it has a limit of triggering once evey 32s (if using traited Signet of Resolve in this buid), or 30s (if using Shelter in an alternate version of this build). The 10s trigger limit is on the rune to prevent multiple effect stacking with other players using the same rune.

Therefore, the boons (and self-heals) given out will be limited in time, although multiplied by number of allies around, which could make for a significantly bigger signet heal (every 32s).

The tradeoff would thus be
Rune of Altruism:  Pros: much bigger signet heal (max 5x72 +3x5x72 = 1440 more heal), buffs allies with might and fury.  Dodge roll heals for 165 more.  Cons: more chance of overheal/wasted heal.  Lose 165 precision (roughly 9-10%), less self heals on attack. No "super power" synergy with Renewed Focus elite skill.

Rune of Lyssa: Pros: random boon on self heal (72 more heal plus random boon), Adds all boons, plus removes all conditions, on use of Elite (Renewed Focus). Adds 165 precision (roughly 9-10%, getting you to the 40% plus threshold where the self-heals on attack gets powerful).  Cons: not as much support to allies, smaller signet heal.

*****************
Great link below on Healing Power effect on Guardian skills (note there is some debate as to whether Altrusitic Healing self heal is 69, 79, or whatever with/without healing power effect. I just use 72 out of habit. One day I'm going to have to watch the numbers on the screen really closely).

I've spreadsheeted this out to 1400 healing power.  Healing can have some powerful impact, but it's a totally different build/playstyle then what this build (and thread) is made for.

http://www.guildwars...guardian-heals/

Edited by Venyarth, 16 December 2012 - 06:04 PM.

[youkai94]

Wow, I din't expect such a complete answer, thanks a lot man, looks like I didn't get the main purpose of the build. Thanks for your clarification.

[Direclaw]

Really good post and discussion - thank you all

Just levelled up my Guardian to 80 last night and this gives me a lot of food for thought
GW2 community is simply amazing /mature in terms of the quality of information and tone of helpfulness

[Snarvid]

Venyarth, on 16 December 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

I didn't see any Hammer buffs or GS nerfs in this patch, unless I'm missing something?  GS compared to Hammer should still be the same pre-patch.

Hammer's lack of multihit WW should be less of an issue for triggering Vigor/AH procs, and it does toss in the Symbol on its autoattack for more self-buffing / protection.

[Sovelin]

Snarvid, on 17 December 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

Hammer's lack of multihit WW should be less of an issue for triggering Vigor/AH procs, and it does toss in the Symbol on its autoattack for more self-buffing / protection.

You are forgetting about empowering might.

[Snarvid]

Sovelin, on 17 December 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

You are forgetting about empowering might.

So does that make GS more or less important?

Hammer triggers more AH procs without EM, does the loss of VP drive AH/EM users more towards GS?

[Venyarth]

Snarvid, on 17 December 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

Hammer's lack of multihit WW should be less of an issue for triggering Vigor/AH procs, and it does toss in the Symbol on its autoattack for more self-buffing / protection.

Greatsword autoattack tosses in a might boon to yourself for each enemy hit (which could be 4+ in some situations).  Now the might buff doesn't help the group out, and the might buff is more offensive, then the Hammer's defensive protection, so they are apples - oranges when looking at the boon benefit by itself.

From an AH/self-heal perspective, either is stronger depending on the situation (see below), as they could both give 1-5 self heals

Snarvid, on 18 December 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

So does that make GS more or less important?

Hammer triggers more AH procs without EM, does the loss of VP drive AH/EM users more towards GS?

If considering just self healing on autoattacking (no other skills), and leaving out EM, as you state, Hammer doesn't always trigger more AH procs then GS. ***EDIT This was calulcated assuming (incorrectly) that Hammer symbol does not cause 3 pulses of damage, when in fact, it does (ingame tooltip does not specify mob damage from symbol).  After recalculation, Hammer almost always does more AH then GS on autoattack. ***

If you are with a group that is always within symbol range, then yes, the symbol drop on the third auto attack can give up to 5 boons of self heal (roughly 350 - a nice chunk of healing), if 5 people are in range - which is not so easy in my experience in dungeons, although pretty easy to do in world bosses like Jormag or Tequatl.

But, if you are solo fighting 3 mobs, then Hammer gives you 1 self heal boon on the third auto attack via the solitary protection symbol on yourself, while the Greatsword third auto attack gives you 3 self-heals from might (which is applied for each enemy you hit, and applied twice if you crit with EM.)

• Solo on 1 mob = Greatsword gives you a AH self-heal on autoattack. It always gives 1 might, and 50% (your crit rate) of the time it gives 2 might if you include Empowering Might.  Hammer only gives 1 protection/self-heal, regardless of Empowering Might. So it's a draw without EM, advantage to GS with EM.
  
• Solo on 2+ mobs = Greatsword definitely advantaged. Will average 4.5 self heals on the third attack if against 3 mobs with EM.  A minimum of 3 self heals against 3 mobs regardless.
  
• Grouped with other people, fighting one mob (e.g. boss mob) = Hammer gives more self heals from protection buff, assuming you have at least 1 ally in range when the symbol drops (and if not, it's the same as solo vs 1 mob, and GS has a slight advantage if EM is considered, it's a draw if not)
  
• Grouped with other people, fighting 2+ mobs = depends on how many mobs you can hit with one swing of the GS (more advantage to GS), and how many allies are in symbol range of you while you melee the mobs (more advantage to Hammer)

Bottom line. One is not always better than the other, each has a situation where it is somewhat superior.  Which is the way it should be in a balanced game.

Note: If you want to look at "all" the 5 weapon skills and include EM, then it's apples to oranges.  GS has more AoE type attacks, and thus more chances to crit and self heal via AH + EM.  With leaping, whirling pull, etc. it is very much an offensive weapon.

Hammer is more of a "control" and "defense" weapon with the protection symbol, the always fun Banish (with creative uses), and the immobilize.

Offense is not = Defense. Thus GS is not = Hammer. And thus it can never be "which one is better".  They both have their uses in certain situations, and the situations one finds oneself in is different depending on playstyles, what you like to do, etc.

Edited by Venyarth, 21 December 2012 - 11:08 PM.

[maxwolfie]

I'm currently only level 36 and thinking about following this guide. Any suggestions on traits/gear at low levels? Do you suggest another build altogether as AH isn't available until level 60?

[888888888]

Hello, my first post on this forum.
First of all, i have to say ty for this great build. I am using it in pretty much every dungeon in the game, and in fractals lvl 16+.
One thing I  have changed in this build is secondary weapon. IMO you don't need staff, you can't die anyway. On end game dungeons and especially in fotm it's much more imortant to have scepter + focus/torch because there are quite a lot of  bosses that can 1 -shot you or do some cond dmg that can kill you very fast if you don't switch to ranged weapon. I just had a feeling that I wasn't contributing enough with my staff in partys, so scepter and offhand are much better solution IMO - for me at least,  bcs you don't need staff to stay alive- i almost never die or I die last one in the party ( when I am in  a bad pug or something ).
I changed rings in fotw with ascended ones, for obvious reasons, and I am working on my back as well.
One question for author of this build : what underwater stats and sigils would you suggest that I use ony my spear? I guess sigil can stay the same as it is on GS, but I am not sure that 3rd stat should be condition dmg-bcs you can't spread conditions with spear as you can with your GS.  Your thougths about that ?

Thank you, and thanks again for sharing this build-best guardian pve build atm IMO.

Edited by 888888888, 19 December 2012 - 01:31 PM.

[Snarvid]

I had thought hammer symbol pulsed three times, giving up to three heals per ally in radius if you're face tanking, plus another off the retaliation blast finish.

I fully grant that GS =/= hammer or vice versa, but for the specific unkillable spec I did wonder whether the loss of VP procs stacking would drive this build hammer-wise.  I guess you could take it either way, tho - if multihit EM procs are the future of the build post VP nerf then GS only gets better.

Or maybe it gets driven to a hammer/shelter 0/0/30/30/10 build with MoC, Hallowed Ground, and Writ of Big Symbolness.

Edited by Snarvid, 19 December 2012 - 07:52 PM.

[KaptainO]

Hammer also drops a symbol that ticks 3 times on each enemy in it, any of those could crit and proc EM.

Assuming 50% crit rate in your "best for GS" situation - Solo vs 3 mobs, GS attack chain is ~2.5s long and swings 3 times for 9 hits 4.5 crits/em procs/ah heals, plus 3 more ah heals from the finisher, 7.5 heals over 2.5 sec so 3 AH heals a second on average.

Hammer's chain is ~3.6s long, hits 3 times plus 3 symbol ticks per mob so 18 hits, 9 crits/em procs/ah heals, plus 3 applications of protection is 12 heals over 3.6 seconds, 3.333 (repeating of course) heals per second.

Sure, sometimes mobs might move out of your symbol but this is Greatsword's ideal situation.  If you add 4 other people with you, even if they aren't standing in the protection symbol, if they're in EM range it would be 4.5 crits*5 = 22.5 plus the 3 from the finisger, 25.5 heals in 2.5 seconds, 9 heals a second.  Hammer would be 9 crits*5 = 45 plus the 3 from the protection ticks is 48/3.6 = 13.333 (repeating of course) heals per second.

It wouldn't be fair to not mention the other GS abilities, as a good GS#2 into a pile of critters can create a huge number of AH heals.

[Venyarth]

Snarvid, on 19 December 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

I had thought hammer symbol pulsed three times, giving up to three heals per ally in radius if you're face tanking, plus another off the retaliation blast finish.

I fully grant that GS =/= hammer or vice versa, but for the specific unkillable spec I did wonder whether the loss of VP procs stacking would drive this build hammer-wise.  I guess you could take it either way, tho - if multihit EM procs are the future of the build post VP nerf then GS only gets better.

Or maybe it gets driven to a hammer/shelter 0/0/30/30/10 build with MoC, Hallowed Ground, and Writ of Big Symbolness.

Good point about the three time pulse on the Symbol. Totally forgot about that.  That definitely tilts things in favor of hammer vs. GS relative to auto attack AH from a theoertical math standpoint (EDIT: I did the math in the post below, with swing times included), but as mentioned elsewhere, that's only 1 out of 5 skills and it wouldn't be a complete picture without considering all 5 weapon skills..

And to your point from a prior post, you are correct that since hammer hits enemies less often (due to less AoE in general) then GS, Hammer was affected less than GS from a relative standpoint from the VP nerf (and by the same logic, Hammer gains less from EM than GS does.)

The two weapons have such different situational uses where they shine though, that I don't think the nerf changes the superiority of either of them for their given role, where you would now substitute one weapon for both (GS for attack, leap, AoE, finishing move synergy with others. Hammer for enemy positional control, more group defensive buffs.)

I still feel VP was a relatively minor nerf (albeit still a nerf), as EM is truly the mainstay of the AH attack self-heals with GS.

Edited by Venyarth, 20 December 2012 - 02:20 AM.

[Venyarth]

KaptainO, on 19 December 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

Hammer also drops a symbol that ticks 3 times on each enemy in it, any of those could crit and proc EM.

Assuming 50% crit rate in your "best for GS" situation - Solo vs 3 mobs, GS attack chain is ~2.5s long and swings 3 times for 9 hits 4.5 crits/em procs/ah heals, plus 3 more ah heals from the finisher, 7.5 heals over 2.5 sec so 3 AH heals a second on average.

Hammer's chain is ~3.6s long, hits 3 times plus 3 symbol ticks per mob so 18 hits, 9 crits/em procs/ah heals, plus 3 applications of protection is 12 heals over 3.6 seconds, 3.333 (repeating of course) heals per second.

Sure, sometimes mobs might move out of your symbol but this is Greatsword's ideal situation.  If you add 4 other people with you, even if they aren't standing in the protection symbol, if they're in EM range it would be 4.5 crits*5 = 22.5 plus the 3 from the finisger, 25.5 heals in 2.5 seconds, 9 heals a second.  Hammer would be 9 crits*5 = 45 plus the 3 from the protection ticks is 48/3.6 = 13.333 (repeating of course) heals per second.

It wouldn't be fair to not mention the other GS abilities, as a good GS#2 into a pile of critters can create a huge number of AH heals.

***EDIT: In the calculations below I had relied on an incomplete Hammer tooltip on auto attack #1, 3rd swing, which does not state that the Protection symbol applies damage, but in game testing confirms that it does apply damage - therefore all calculations below are INCOMPLETE and the conclusions are INACCURATE.  Please feel free to skip this post.  I'm Leaving it up for continuity sake ***

Which Hammer skill (I presume you meant auto attack #1, third swing) drops a symbol that damages enemies?  I only see the one that adds protection to allies.  Did you mean Greatsword #2 skill?  The Hammer #2 skill is not a symbol, but a one time AoE.

Also, I was not aware that applying protection from a symbol could "crit" and trigger EM.  (If true, that adds a new dimension to analyze)

I like your math taking into effect swing times - that is a more accurate model. However:

*I followed your math in paragraph 2 from the GS. So far so good.
*Paragraph 3 you lost me since I thought the Hammer symbol proc'd on allies, not mobs.  Also, EM wouldn't apply if it's just allies, right?
*Paragraph 4 I couldn't follow for the same reason (Hammer symbol procs on allies and not mobs, right? or did I miss something?). The GS part of that paragraph with EM I followed.


**************

Here is how I see it now, using your chain times (great addition btw, thank you) , assuming 4 allies in symbol range, and 3 mobs in melee range:

Greatsword #1 chain: 2.5 secs (50% crit rate)
Swing 1 = [1.5 crits * 5 allies] = 7.5 AH from Empowering Might
Swing 2 = [1.5 crits * 5 allies] = 7.5 AH from Empowering Might
Swing 3 = [1.5 crits * 5 allies] = 7.5 AH from Empowering Might + 3.0 AH from GS chain (applies might to self)
Total = 25.5 AH / 2.5s = 10.1 Heals/second (not 9 as in your post)

Hammer #1 chain (first use): 3.6 secs (50% crit rate)
Swing 1 = [1.5 crits * 5 allies] = 7.5 AH from Empowering Might
Swing 2 = [1.5 crits * 5 allies] = 7.5 AH from Empowering Might
Swing 3 = [1.5 crits * 5 allies] = 7.5 AH from Empowering Might + 5.0 AH from allies standing in symbol (first pulse)
Total = 27.5 AH / 3.6s = 7.6/second

Hammer #1 chain (second use): 3.6 secs (50% crit rate)
Swing 1 = [1.5 crits * 5 allies] = 7.5 AH from Empowering Might
Symbol pulse 2 (from prior use of hammer chain) = 5.0 AH (4 allies in symbol)
Swing 2 = [1.5 crits * 5 allies] = 7.5 AH from Empowering Might
Symbol pulse 3 (from prior use of hammer chain) = 5.0 AH (4 allies in symbol)
Swing 3 = [1.5 crits * 5 allies] = 7.5 AH from Empowering Might + 5.0 AH from allies standing in symbol (first tic)
Total = 37.5 AH / 3.6s = 10.4/second

**********
Roughly equal if
*your 4 allies stand in your symbol for 7+ seconds (I've never seen that, if ever in a 5 man dungeon. But in a Jormag/Tequatl fight this could happen), So Hammer would be decreased in reality
*and if your allies stay in Empowering Might range (more likely to happen), Affects both Hammer and GS equally
*and if PvE mobs stay in melee range (pretty likely to happen). Affects both Hammer and GS equally if this were not true.

Thus I conclude that GS will have more AH in this scenario (in different scenarios, this may not be true). Hammer brings a lot of other things to a fight (as does GS), so this isn't saying GS or Hammer is better than the other

**********
Just trying to follow along as I'm always learning from posts in this thread.  Thanks for taking the time to post!

Edited by Venyarth, 21 December 2012 - 11:05 PM.

[Venyarth]

maxwolfie, on 19 December 2012 - 06:15 AM, said:

I'm currently only level 36 and thinking about following this guide. Any suggestions on traits/gear at low levels? Do you suggest another build altogether as AH isn't available until level 60?

I put some of my opinions on post #37 (page 2) for new Guardians. Spoiler Warning : this is an end game build/thread and there are probably other threads in this forum with better starting builds.

Give that a read and if you have any other questions afterwards, please post again.  Thanks!

[Snarvid]

Venyarth, on 20 December 2012 - 02:17 AM, said:

Which Hammer skill (I presume you meant auto attack #1, third swing) drops a symbol that damages enemies?  I only see the one that adds protection to allies.  Did you mean Greatsword #2 skill?  The Hammer #2 skill is not a symbol, but a one time AoE.

I suspect I am misunderstanding you, but to be totally clear: you know that all symbols damage enemies and buff allies within their AoE, right?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Symbol

[Nimade]

Thanks for posting this interesting build. I currently run a AH build with a full soldier's set with soldier runes but would like to try out this build. As I have more luck finding CoF/CoE pugs and thus having access to power/pres/crit dam gear via dungeon tokens as opposed to Knights, I would like to check what is the minimum toughness that is required for this build to be viable. Would swapping out accessories to those with toughness stats make up for this trade-off?

[Hsaithan93]

Nice topic really with all that details

I wish to ask if someone can help, am thinking of getting the full set of KARMA  to be a supportive Guardian

i was thinking of buying the rune of guardian or dolyak ( i think its the right name )

but as i see in this build you are using the rune of lyssa for the 6th set bonus ?

and what about the new patches is it possible to use the elite skill while moving ( instant ) or they removed it

Thanks

[indure]

Venyarth, on 20 December 2012 - 02:17 AM, said:

Also, I was not aware that applying protection from a symbol could "crit" and trigger EM.  (If true, that adds a new dimension to analyze)

First, confirmed that symbols can crit and they do trigger EM, although I used the staff symbol because I could see the results without auto-attacks easier.

Secondly I was under the impression that EM still has a 1 sec. internal cooldown, meaning that regardless of the amount of enemies or attacks (faster then 1 sec) you still can only achieve 1 proc per sec. Meaning that the GS's chain can only proc 2 EM since it is 2.5 seconds long. The hammer chain can proc 2-3 EM (not sure on exact times of attack on Hammer anymore) since it is 3.5 seconds long.

My understanding of chains (although I hate math and I fudge the timers slightly for simplicity sake):

GS CHAIN: 2.5 secs, 100% crit rate (for simplicity)
Swing 1 = [crit * 5 allies] = 5 AH from EM
Swing 2 = nothing
Swing 3 = [crit * 5 allies] = 5 AH from EM + 3.0 AH from GS chain (applies might to self/ hits best case scenario of three targets)
Total = 13 AH / 2.5s | 3N attacks / 2.5s (N being number of mobs)

HAMMER CHAIN (x2): 7.2 sec, 100% crit rate (for simplicity)
Swing 1 = [crit * 5 allies] = 5 AH from EM
Swing 2 = assumed nothing (possibly too fast for internal cooldown of EM )
Swing 3 = [crit * 5 allies] = 5 AH from EM + 1N AH from symbol (N being number of people affected)
Note: additional attack on Swing 3 for first symbol pulse.
Swing 4 = [crit * 5 allies] = 5 AH from EM + 1N AH from symbol (N being number of people affected)
Swing 5 = 1N AH from symbol (N being number of people affected)
Swing 6 = [crit * 5 allies] = 5 AH from EM + 1N AH from symbol (N being number of people affected)

If you factor in overlap and remove the first chain, then the actual formula for all further chains is:

HAMMER CHAIN: 3.6 sec, 100% crit rate (for simplicity)
Swing 1 = [crit * 5 allies] = 5 AH from EM + 1N AH from symbol (N being number of people affected)
Note: additional attack on Swing 1 for second symbol pulse.
Swing 2 = 1N AH from symbol (N being number of people affected)
Note: additional attack on Swing 2 for third symbol pulse.
Swing 3 = [crit * 5 allies] = 5 AH from EM + 1N AH from symbol (N being number of people affected)
Note: additional attack on Swing 3 for first symbol pulse.

Minimum Total = 13 AH / 3.6s | 6N attacks / 3.6s (N being number of mobs)
Maximum Total = 25 AH / 3.6s (it may be higher if swing 2 is slow enough to proc EM.)

Assuming maximum proccing of EM, then the worst the hammer can do is still on par with the best the GS can do. Assuming a much lower crit (less EM procs), then the GS's chain is faster, but the Hammer chain does double the amount of attacks and therefore has a higher chance of proccing EM. This is only considering auto attacks. If other attacks are consider, I would think that the GS's other skills would potentially overtake the Hammer in EM procs, but the Hammer's Mighty Blow finisher stomps on the long cooldown Symbol of Wrath.

Edited by indure, 20 December 2012 - 06:51 PM.

[Sovelin]

The minimum total on your hammer is over 3.6s. How is that the same as greatsword getting the same number of heals in 2.5s?

[indure]

Sovelin, on 20 December 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

The minimum total on your hammer is over 3.6s. How is that the same as greatsword getting the same number of heals in 2.5s?

It's not, the GS is superior when you look at best potential for GS vs worst potential for Hammer.

Keep in mind that the 100% crit chance is unrealistic, at 40-50% crit chance the hammer has a much higher potential for proccing EM since its swings don't overlap the internal cooldown of EM and it has 6 attacks in it's chain compared to the GS 3 (or 4 in 3.6s). Realistically this would balance out the number of procs. Although against 3 opponents both the GS and hammer will crit a lot.

Edited by indure, 21 December 2012 - 05:18 PM.

[Venyarth]

Snarvid, on 20 December 2012 - 03:16 AM, said:

I suspect I am misunderstanding you, but to be totally clear: you know that all symbols damage enemies and buff allies within their AoE, right?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Symbol

Actually, I did not know that the Hammer symbol applied damage. The ingame tooltip and the wiki listing for Hammer (which apparently just copied the ingame tooltip) does not say it applies damage, whereas every other symbol's tooltip does say it applies damage....

Regardless, I went and tested the Hammer in game and looked at the combat log, and sure enough - two ticks of damage from "Symbol of Protection".  Hooray!  I stand corrected, and happily so, as there is more info to digest and more power for the Guardian mwahaha

Hammer becomes quite stronger than I had thought, so now I get why people throughout this thread want to talk about Hammer as well....

(This will also teach me not to rely on tooltips....)

Thank you for your patience in pointing this out to me.  As stated earlier, I have not played as much with Hammer as I would like, and all these great replies are a real eye-opener to me, in a good way.

Edited by Venyarth, 21 December 2012 - 11:00 PM.

[Venyarth]

indure, on 21 December 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

It's not, the GS is superior when you look at best potential for GS vs worst potential for Hammer.

Keep in mind that the 100% crit chance is unrealistic, at 40-50% crit chance the hammer has a much higher potential for proccing EM since its swings don't overlap the internal cooldown of EM and it has 6 attacks in it's chain compared to the GS 3 (or 4 in 3.6s). Realistically this would balance out the number of procs. Although against 3 opponents both the GS and hammer will crit a lot.

This, plus your prior post.... good stuff, and please keep it coming.   Two things I have learned:

1)  Hammer symbol applies damage (depsite the ingame tooltip not specifically saying so) - thus it will proc EM and AH and all that.  I had (incorrectly) assumed that hammer only applied the boon with no damage, thus all my calculations were off.  Yours are more accurate

2)  I was not aware of the EM 1 sec CD.  If true, this also changes things and your calculations a couple posts above are very accurate.  Does the EM only allow "one EM" per second, or one "chance of EM on all enemies hit" per second?

So Hammer now appears at least equal to GS in auto attack AH/EM - and superior in many situations.  Plus it adds the defensive protection.  The tradeoff is of course the GS 3, 4, 5 skills vs the Hammer 3, 4, 5 skills, which have totally different situational uses.

My next question now is, can Arenanet please let me trade between 3 great 2H weapons? (Hammer, GS, Staff)