202 replies to this topic

[Venyarth]

Revised GS vs Hammer comparison on Auto-attack #1 only, assuming:

• 4 other allies in symbol range at all times,
  
• 4 other allies in EM range at all times
  
• assumes EM range is = symbol range for allies (don't know if this is true or if one is larger radii than the other).
  
• 3 mobs in symbol & melee range,
  
• 50% crit rate,
  
• Altruistic Healing (AH) and Empowering Might (EM).
  
• Swing times,
  
• Does NOT include EM 1 second CD timer (for simplicity):

Greatsword #1 chain: 2.5 secs (50% crit rate)
Swing 1 = [1.5 crits * 5 allies] = 7.5 AH from Empowering Might
Swing 2 = [1.5 crits * 5 allies] = 7.5 AH from Empowering Might
Swing 3 = [1.5 crits * 5 allies] = 7.5 AH from Empowering Might + 3.0 AH from GS chain (applies might to self)
Total = 25.5 AH / 2.5s = 10.1 Heals/second

Hammer #1 chain (first use): 3.6 secs (50% crit rate)
Swing 1 = [1.5 crits * 5 allies] = 7.5 AH from Empowering Might
Swing 2 = [1.5 crits * 5 allies] = 7.5 AH from Empowering Might
Swing 3 = [1.5 crits * 5 allies] = 7.5 AH from Empowering Might + 5.0 AH from allies standing in symbol (first pulse) +1.5 AH/EM (Crit on half of the 3 mobs)
Total = 29.0 AH / 3.6s = 8.1/second

Hammer #1 chain (second use): 3.6 secs (50% crit rate)
Swing 1 = [1.5 crits * 5 allies] = 7.5 AH from Empowering Might
Symbol pulse 2 (from prior use of hammer chain) = 5.0 AH (4 allies in symbol) + 1.5 AH/EM (Crit on half of the 3 mobs)
Swing 2 = [1.5 crits * 5 allies] = 7.5 AH from Empowering Might
Symbol pulse 3 (from prior use of hammer chain) = 5.0 AH (4 allies in symbol) + 1.5 AH/EM (Crit on half of the 3 mobs)
Swing 3 = [1.5 crits * 5 allies] = 7.5 AH from Empowering Might + 5.0 AH from allies standing in symbol (first tic)
Total = 40.5 AH / 3.6s = 11.3/second

After 8.0 seconds of battle:
GS = 10.1 heals/second average
Hammer = 9.9 heals/second average

Breakeven point ~9 seconds of battle - after which, Hammer heals more over the course of the battle vs. GS, assuming all allies and mobs stay in range throughout

All academic, of course - I think they are both very close, and each bring other unique traits to the battle that should have more of an impact on weapon choice, vs. only considering the AH/EM factor.

Edited by Venyarth, 21 December 2012 - 11:27 PM.

[indure]

Venyarth, on 21 December 2012 - 10:56 PM, said:

2)  I was not aware of the EM 1 sec CD.  If true, this also changes things and your calculations a couple posts above are very accurate.  Does the EM only allow "one EM" per second, or one "chance of EM on all enemies hit" per second?

EM can only proc once per second, so for burst abilities like Whirling Wrath, even if you crit all the mini-attacks you can only proc Might once (maybe twice depending on if the first and last attack of the ability are 1 second apart). If it didn't have an internal cooldown EM would be OP because when fighting multiple opponents with a decent crit chance, a Symbol of Wrath + Whirling Wrath combo could easily proc 10-15 stacks of Might for your entire group in less then 5 seconds.

As it stands now, + boon duration aside, EM can only stack Might to 5 stacks, because boon duration will end before a further stack can be added. In reality, due to less then 50% crit rate and swing timers not equaling 1 second, you will be stuck at around 3 stacks of Might at any given time.

Edited by indure, 22 December 2012 - 01:26 AM.

[Sovelin]

The only problem here is having 4 allies stand in symbol range. Most of the time I am playing in a dungeon, only 1-2 allies would be in symbol range. Going into fractals, this number is reduced. I really like the protection concept of the hammer (especially since it increases your survivability, even more if you spec to have symbols heal you), but do to the fact that I likely won't get AH to activate from the symbol since my allies are spread out, I would have to say GS works better for me. I might do some testing with having symbols heal and see how well hammer works out for me then.

[malevolence]

Alright, merry Christmas everyone hope you had a nice time enjoying the holiday. Now it is time for update, as you know, I am running the Lyssa Guardian build, but trying to achieve a high number in crit hits and crits damage, and at the same time (thanks to consumables) heal myself and tank all I can in FotM and other areas, all this, without modifying the core part of the build (Traits and Runes).

Right now , I achieved an 80% crit chance and 69% crit damage, see the picture:


I know it says 75% crit chance, but you need to sum the 5% crit chance from the GS sigil.

Like this , when a nice crit hit land, I self-heal 340 hp, allowing me to tank a bit more and more amount of mobs.

Finally I got the staff I need, high Healing power and Vitality, and because of the consumables, I reach a 81% crit chance with the Staff, and as the staff hit a huge amount of mobs at the same time, it is really good for healing too and the Staff does decent damage sometimes.

EDIT:

here is a pic without the consumables:



Cheers.

Edited by malevolence, 26 December 2012 - 10:40 PM.

[Sovelin]

malevolence, on 26 December 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

Alright, merry Christmas everyone hope you had a nice time enjoying the holiday. Now it is time for update, as you know, I am running the Lyssa Guardian build, but trying to achieve a high number in crit hits and crits damage, and at the same time (thanks to consumables) heal myself and tank all I can in FotM and other areas, all this, without modifying the core part of the build (Traits and Runes).

Right now , I achieved an 80% crit chance and 69% crit damage, see the picture:


I know it says 75% crit chance, but you need to sum the 5% crit chance from the GS sigil.

Like this , when a nice crit hit land, I self-heal 340 hp, allowing me to tank a bit more and more amount of mobs.

Finally I got the staff I need, high Healing power and Vitality, and because of the consumables, I reach a 81% crit chance with the Staff, and as the staff hit a huge amount of mobs at the same time, it is really good for healing too and the Staff does decent damage sometimes.

EDIT:

here is a pic without the consumables:



Cheers.

Very nice crit rate. What consumable are you using? Also, have you considered the sigil of leeching (I think that's what it is called) that heals you for every crit? That might be more beneficial instead of the 5% accuracy bonus, since your crit chance is already so high. It should net you more heals.

For simplicity's sake, let's assume the sigil heals you for the same amount that AH does.
When solo, you heal 80 times out of 100 hits with sigil of accuracy.
When solo, you heal 125 times (75 + 50) out of 100 hits with sigil of leeching.

W/ a party of 5, you heal 400 times out of 100 hits w/ sigil of accuracy.
W/ a party of 5, you heal 425 times (375 + 50) out of 100 hits w/ sigil of leeching.

Edit: Completely forgot about CD for the effect, which probably makes my entire post a moot point. D'oh

Edited by Sovelin, 27 December 2012 - 12:32 AM.

[Hemaka]

Sovelin, on 27 December 2012 - 12:31 AM, said:

Very nice crit rate. What consumable are you using? Also, have you considered the sigil of leeching (I think that's what it is called) that heals you for every crit? That might be more beneficial instead of the 5% accuracy bonus, since your crit chance is already so high. It should net you more heals.

For simplicity's sake, let's assume the sigil heals you for the same amount that AH does.
When solo, you heal 80 times out of 100 hits with sigil of accuracy.
When solo, you heal 125 times (75 + 50) out of 100 hits with sigil of leeching.

W/ a party of 5, you heal 400 times out of 100 hits w/ sigil of accuracy.
W/ a party of 5, you heal 425 times (375 + 50) out of 100 hits w/ sigil of leeching.

Edit: Completely forgot about CD for the effect, which probably makes my entire post a moot point. D'oh

You mean Sigil of Blood i guess (leeching is lifesteal after swapping). It might not be bad, but I believe that Sigil of Strength (major, cause superiors are soooo expensive) could be best option for such high crit chance. Not only you'll have nice healing from AH, but also dmg increase and Might synergy with EM trait. What do you think?

[Sovelin]

Hemaka, on 27 December 2012 - 12:04 PM, said:

You mean Sigil of Blood i guess (leeching is lifesteal after swapping). It might not be bad, but I believe that Sigil of Strength (major, cause superiors are soooo expensive) could be best option for such high crit chance. Not only you'll have nice healing from AH, but also dmg increase and Might synergy with EM trait. What do you think?

Definitely would increase your DPS. It is a good option, and I've often considered using something other than sigil of accuracy after passing the 50% crit chance mark. I mean, if critting so often, might as well get a little bonus out of it (such as even more damage, or an on crit effect since it will be easy to trigger). What about something like sigil of flame/air, which deals extra damage every time you crit? Depending on how much damage it actually does (I haven't checked), it might overall give you a higher DPS since you crit so often.

[malevolence]

To be honest, tonight I was looking at the sigils options and I was considering getting a new GS with Sigil of Blood and test it out. Sigil of Strength looks good too, but the damage output is good enough, what I am aiming right now is more survivability. For consumables I am using Omnomberry Pies + Master Maintenance Oil, I know the Omnomberries are expensives right now, but I do more money on my runs than what I spent buying them.

[Sovelin]

I actually can't remember the last time I used my elite skill. Survivability I think depends more on skill than anything else. I've gotten fairly good at evading when I need to, staying mobile, and using utilities at the right time (SYG right before a mob does a knockdown, so allies who forget to evade can keep dishing out DPS). I've actually been running w/ Omnomberry tart for the magic find and an appropriate potion for the dungeon (or maintenance oil, depending on how I feel). I've been thinking about getting a 2nd GS and running it w/ sigil of luck to further increase magicfind (more money per run, pays for itself).

With so many sigil options, sigil of accuracy seems kind of vanilla. Personally, I think you should keep it if you are below 50% crit chance and replace it if you are above 50% crit chance with something that gives an on-crit bonus.

[Hemaka]

malevolence, on 28 December 2012 - 03:10 AM, said:

To be honest, tonight I was looking at the sigils options and I was considering getting a new GS with Sigil of Blood and test it out. Sigil of Strength looks good too, but the damage output is good enough, what I am aiming right now is more survivability. For consumables I am using Omnomberry Pies + Master Maintenance Oil, I know the Omnomberries are expensives right now, but I do more money on my runs than what I spent buying them.

Keep in mind that sigil of blood seems to have 5sec cooldown instead of 2sec listed in tooltip (maybe it's bug, maybe not, info from gw2wiki). Even at 5sec it's propably superior to sigil of strength in terms of heal, but you've got to ask yourself a question: do you really need more heals? You know, AH, EM, food, skills etc. Imo it's enough.
Instead you could try aoe dmg on crit (sigil of fire, 5sec cooldown too) or another way to increase your plain dmg and minor heal (especially if you're not running with warriors) - sigil of strength.
Just like Sovelin said: "Survivability I think depends more on skill than anything else." We've got enough ways to heal ourselves and at such high crit.chance as yours it's time to think about killing stuff even faster

I'm running similar build with crit.chance ~60% (with food/oils and without fury) and now i'm strongly considering sigil of fire, because of it's dmg potential. And i've got absolutely no problem with staying alive Any thoughts?

Edited by Hemaka, 28 December 2012 - 01:37 PM.

[malevolence]

Staying alive depends on location/dungeon etc. With my current build, I can run every dungeon and world map without any major issues, but when we talk about FotM level 30+ is something different, there are some fractals where they tests your survivability, there are parts with huge amount of mobs (dredge fractals for example) where your skills will be in constant CD, and your endurance bar empty most of the times because of dodging every time you can and you have on you 100 dredges that are immune to blind by the way, still, you can get killed any second there while tanking if you screw up with your timing etc.

Currently with my build, I can solo the entire dredge fractal (excluding boss) from level 1 up to 19. After that, the amount is becoming a problem, specially while trying to tank. Another fractal is the Ascalon one in levels 20+, where the veteran warriors can kill players in 1 or 2 hits! (3 hits for me if I don't react in time, the rest normally dies in 1 hit or 2 max.). Yes I am able to tank in those levels, but it requires a lot of player's skill and good timing, but I feel the extra from sigil of blood can help there, because damage is enough, is not the highest you can get but enough to kill targets. I didn't test anything yet, but there are some interesting stuff for high crit. chance builds.

Edited by malevolence, 29 December 2012 - 04:06 PM.

[IRGoofy]

Hello,

Thank you for the great info about this build.

I have a question.

With this build, would you consider 2 of these rings: Crystaline & Red ring of death





Or 2 of bunch of stats rings: Solaria and Lunaria.





Thanks so much.

** I'm sorry, that was my first post and I didn't know attachment didn't show the pictures but links only **

Edited by IRGoofy, 03 January 2013 - 02:51 PM.

[Prefon Guardmar]

malevolence, on 26 December 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

Alright, merry Christmas everyone hope you had a nice time enjoying the holiday. Now it is time for update, as you know, I am running the Lyssa Guardian build, but trying to achieve a high number in crit hits and crits damage, and at the same time (thanks to consumables) heal myself and tank all I can in FotM and other areas, all this, without modifying the core part of the build (Traits and Runes).

Right now , I achieved an 80% crit chance and 69% crit damage, see the picture:


I know it says 75% crit chance, but you need to sum the 5% crit chance from the GS sigil.

Like this , when a nice crit hit land, I self-heal 340 hp, allowing me to tank a bit more and more amount of mobs.

Finally I got the staff I need, high Healing power and Vitality, and because of the consumables, I reach a 81% crit chance with the Staff, and as the staff hit a huge amount of mobs at the same time, it is really good for healing too and the Staff does decent damage sometimes.

EDIT:

here is a pic without the consumables:



Cheers.

I just got the runes and armor for this build set up and it is working great so far.
What armor/weapons have you changed in this build and what have you sacrificed to get these stats?
Thanks a bunch!

[KaptainO]

Yup, I'm curious how much your armour has deviated from where you started.

Is it still mostly Knight's Gear?

Do you still run 10 points in Radiance or have you increased that?

Many Guardians in higher level fractals swear by 10 points in Virtues for Spirit Weapon Mastery or Master of Consecrations to reflect or block problematic projectiles, did you switch to 10 in Virtues for those traits?

[ManaObstruction]

Hmm.. is it possible to do a more offensive version of this build by switching the staff for scepter/shield?

I wanted go to GS + Sc/Sh, with berserker gloves, shoulder, and boots, and knights' helmet, chest, and legs. Still undecided on trinkets.

Traits are 0/15/30/20/5

I'm also a bit undecided on the sigils, is it a good idea to go sigil of strength if I will be having around 45% crit chance? Or should I still be using sigil of accuracy?

[GuanglaiKangyi]

Just so everyone knows,Sigil of Strength also has an internal CD.  I think it's also about 1s.  It's still good, you can easily maintain 10 stacks of might on GS auto alone.  I've done it, I even capped myself doing it to prove some other guy wrong about something unrelated in a different thread.

[ManaObstruction]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 14 January 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

Just so everyone knows,Sigil of Strength also has an internal CD.  I think it's also about 1s.  It's still good, you can easily maintain 10 stacks of might on GS auto alone.  I've done it, I even capped myself doing it to prove some other guy wrong about something unrelated in a different thread.

Ah, I saw your dungeon thread with the +40% boon duration. Is it possible from someone with 0% boon duration, but with roughly 45% or so crit chance to maintain 10 stacks of might with the GS, EM, and Sigil of Strength?

[GuanglaiKangyi]

Seems a bit unlikely without the boon duration, I guess.  You're likely looking at around 7 stacks on average is my guess.  The extra crit chance isn't really going to help you since the bottleneck is the internal CD on the might procs.

[ManaObstruction]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 14 January 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

Seems a bit unlikely without the boon duration, I guess.  You're likely looking at around 7 stacks on average is my guess.  The extra crit chance isn't really going to help you since the bottleneck is the internal CD on the might procs.

Yeah, I tested it out in pvp, 47% crit chance with sigil of strength. Was floating around 6 to 10 stacks on mobs, around 6 to 8 stacks at most on 1 mob.

Any suggestions for a sigil on a Sc/Sh? I plan to have sigil of accuracy on one of them.

[Telethos]

Hey does anyone know how well this build would work for Fractals?

[Prefon Guardmar]

It works great for fractals, I use the exact one.
I am currently on lv6 with no problems so far.
I usually die the least in my group if at all

Edited by Prefon Guardmar, 21 January 2013 - 09:27 PM.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

Telethos, on 21 January 2013 - 05:42 PM, said:

Hey does anyone know how well this build would work for Fractals?

While the trait spread in general is solid, the gearset isn't really ideal.  OP is wearing a pretty bizarre mix of equipment, which has a lot of useless stats (Rampager's?  Soldiers?).  The extra toughness and vitality from some of the pieces might help you if you are first starting out in Fractals and don't know what the big attacks look like, but ultimately they won't make that big of a difference.  You can easily get as high as Fractals 20+ without even noticing the difference between full berserker gear and full soldier gear, in terms of passive survivability.  Even if you go higher the difference is negligible at best compared to just good dodging and use of skills.  From what I can tell the OP is trying to get extra defensive stats (vit, toughness, healing power) through gear then compensate for the loss of crit chance via Rampager's gear.  However, you lose a ton of DPS this way since you're not only losing a big chunk of power as a major stat, but also crit damage.  You are also now pumping condition damage by taking Rampager's weapons, which is a massive waste since it affects absolutely nothing at all on the guardian.

Moreover, Lyssa runes are good for PvP (due to the condition removal) but one condition wipe every 90s is next to useless in PvE.  The burst of boons is also negligible since getting a 5s stack of boons in a fight that might take several minutes, at the cost of channeling a skill for 3s, is extremely weak.  You might consider this a "free" bonus but keep in mind that there are plenty of other runesets you could be taking that don't make nearly as severe a tradeoff.

tl;dr stick to using this build in PvP or maybe WvW, it's not really a dungeon build.  I don't think it was meant to be.

Edited by GuanglaiKangyi, 22 January 2013 - 06:46 PM.

[Skibba]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 22 January 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

While the trait spread in general is solid, the gearset isn't really ideal.  OP is wearing a pretty bizarre mix of equipment, which has a lot of useless stats (Rampager's?  Soldiers?).  The extra toughness and vitality from some of the pieces might help you if you are first starting out in Fractals and don't know what the big attacks look like, but ultimately they won't make that big of a difference.  You can easily get as high as Fractals 20+ without even noticing the difference between full berserker gear and full soldier gear, in terms of passive survivability.  Even if you go higher the difference is negligible at best compared to just good dodging and use of skills.  From what I can tell the OP is trying to get extra defensive stats (vit, toughness, healing power) through gear then compensate for the loss of crit chance via Rampager's gear.  However, you lose a ton of DPS this way since you're not only losing a big chunk of power as a major stat, but also crit damage.  You are also now pumping condition damage by taking Rampager's weapons, which is a massive waste since it affects absolutely nothing at all on the guardian.

Moreover, Lyssa runes are good for PvP (due to the condition removal) but one condition wipe every 90s is next to useless in PvE.  The burst of boons is also negligible since getting a 5s stack of boons in a fight that might take several minutes, at the cost of channeling a skill for 3s, is extremely weak.  You might consider this a "free" bonus but keep in mind that there are plenty of other runesets you could be taking that don't make nearly as severe a tradeoff.

tl;dr stick to using this build in PvP or maybe WvW, it's not really a dungeon build.  I don't think it was meant to be.

GuanglaiKangyi, would you mind sharing the runes you use please? I've been alternating between the Lyssa build and Strifes build for Fractals up to 10, now I'm on 15 and have been mainly using Strifes build. I'm full Knight's armour with Soldiers runes but tempted to swap some Knights pieces out for Beserkers armour and try the 2/2/2 rune combo for 40% boon duration. The problem I have are:-

• I'll be losing vitality by dropping soldiers runes, so may end up having to go for a combination of Knights, Beserkers and Valkyrie armour to find the sweet spot with dps, vitality and toughness.

• Adding DPS with Beserkers armor, but switching runes to 40% boon duration seem somewhat counter productive. I haven't committed to it yet because I'm not sure if it makes sense to gear for dps but rune for support.

Edited by Skibba, 22 January 2013 - 09:15 PM.

[Telethos]

How well would this build work in WvW and Fractals?

By the way this build is amazing for dungeons. I rarely ever die or even get downed.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

Skibba, on 22 January 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

GuanglaiKangyi, would you mind sharing the runes you use please? I've been alternating between the Lyssa build and Strifes build for Fractals up to 10, now I'm on 15 and have been mainly using Strifes build. I'm full Knight's armour with Soldiers runes but tempted to swap some Knights pieces out for Beserkers armour and try the 2/2/2 rune combo for 40% boon duration. The problem I have are:-

• I'll be losing vitality by dropping soldiers runes, so may end up having to go for a combination of Knights, Beserkers and Valkyrie armour to find the sweet spot with dps, vitality and toughness.

• Adding DPS with Beserkers armor, but switching runes to 40% boon duration seem somewhat counter productive. I haven't committed to it yet because I'm not sure if it makes sense to gear for dps but rune for support.

Boon duration is fine for a DPS build since it lets you stack more might.  It nets out to about 3-4 more stacks of might with a Strength Sigil which is a good 5-6% already.

[Shiba]

I don't know if anyone has tested it yet, but for example how much does a single use of "Save yourselves!" heal you? And how much does applying a buff on 1 ally heal you? And does for example "Hold the line!" grant you 2x healing from one ally?

Further I think this is a very very very good build and I can't wait untill my guard is lvl 80!

[malevolence]

@IRGoofy , Red Ring and Crystaline if you want to go with Crit. Dmg + Precision (crit. chance), mainly for DPS oriented, these 2 rings are exactly what I personally use. Now about the rings Lunaria and Solaria, they are worthless in my opinion, they sacrifice a good number of stats for an overall +stats that at the end, is too low and in the case of this build, is worthless. You don't want +condition damage for example, the magic find % is too low if you consider them for Magic Find hunt, there are way better options out there.

@Prefon Guardmar, the armor set is Knight, I removed 2 Knight rings to add the extra Crit Dmg + Crit Chance (Red Ring + Crystalline) and my back item is also Crit Dmg + Crit Chance oriented. I can't remember the exact number, but I did sacrifice some armor here.

[ChuyDog08]

ChuyDog08, on 13 December 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:

I want to thank the OP for this detail build. My first alt was a Shout Warrior, and I didn't want to play a Shout build with the Guardian.  I am currently this Lyssa Build and melting enemies like butter.  I use the same traits, weapons, and skills.  However, I changed the armor up a bit.  I had spare karma jugs, so when I turned lvl 80 I decided to splerge.  I bought the Rubicon Armor of Lyssa.  It may not be a perfect match for your build, but I very rarely go down, and almost never die.  Most of my deaths are due to not paying attention and agroing too many groups in Cursed Shore area.

Great Post OP!!!

Just checking back in.  I have not changed anything and still running great with the Karma Armor.  This build is now my only one I take into Dungeons and FOTM.  Great Team Support, DPS, and Survivability.

Thanks again OP!

[AKGeo]

VicMorrow, on 07 November 2012 - 02:29 AM, said:

@zcks go spam other thread. the build is around lyssa and u ask to switch to soldier. the point of discussion to find more viable build for guardian. what works for you doesn't mean will work for everybody.

The point of a discussion is to discuss. Not to say "hey gaiz diz bild is grayt" and everyone goes "ya man dat bild iz ahsum."

You post a build, someone critiques it, it gets fine tuned, gaps are filled, things get improved on. That's just how it works.

[Prefon Guardmar]

malevolence, on 22 January 2013 - 11:38 PM, said:

@IRGoofy , Red Ring and Crystaline if you want to go with Crit. Dmg + Precision (crit. chance), mainly for DPS oriented, these 2 rings are exactly what I personally use. Now about the rings Lunaria and Solaria, they are worthless in my opinion, they sacrifice a good number of stats for an overall +stats that at the end, is too low and in the case of this build, is worthless. You don't want +condition damage for example, the magic find % is too low if you consider them for Magic Find hunt, there are way better options out there.

@Prefon Guardmar, the armor set is Knight, I removed 2 Knight rings to add the extra Crit Dmg + Crit Chance (Red Ring + Crystalline) and my back item is also Crit Dmg + Crit Chance oriented. I can't remember the exact number, but I did sacrifice some armor here.

Thanks for the reply!

I think i will switch out some of my knights/valkyrie trinkets for beserker.
I rarely die atm and would like to improve the damage some.
Hopefully I can get that red ring of death. only on fotm6 so still waiting on my first drop