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5 Man Dungeon Structure

team pve builds dungeon

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#1 Epicmediocrity

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:59 PM

After studying the game and its systems a little bit, I'm going to attempt to outline a formula for making successful 5-man dungeon runs with each member using a different role. I'll jump right in to it.

Essentially, I figure there are five roles any class can play that work in pve and serve a special purpose. While they can be accomplished in a variety of ways, they are:

Tank: This character specs into vitality and toughness in an effort to draw damage away from other members of the team. They typically take skills that give them boons, remove conditions, or otherwise allow them to dodge or resist damage.

DPS: Damage dealers. Unless one of the soldier professions, this character should be ranged ideally to avoid damage. A DPS build can deal its damage through conditions, attacks, etc, and makes no real attempt to focus on defense, allowing teammates to cover him or her.

Support: A character who specs into healing, stunning or slowing enemies, or giving allies boons. Support is a very broad role in GW2, but a good support can make the difference between a wipe and victory. To this end, all supports should bring their revival skill on their bar, unless another build has room.

Crowd Control: The crowd control character does their best to destroy weaker creatures as quickly as possible or alternatively to simply make them ineffective through stuns or disables. Spike damage builds or disruption builds can work to this end.

Bruiser: The team's secondary tank. This is probably going to be a melee character who specs broadly between damage and tanking/support. Because of GW2's lack of spammable heals, it may be necessary for tanks to switch off, and bruisers allow for that. Typically, a bruiser should carry a weapon or skill that allows them to block or survive, since they also spec for damage.

Explanations
This system works because of the way the game is designed. With a greater emphasis on offense and no true support class, even a support character can still aid in damage. This makes only one dedicated DPS necessary, with defensive abilities spread throughout the team.

Since healing and true tanking abilities are so sparse, tanks may need to resort to dodging and evasion rather than simple brute force to do their job. This universal kiting strategy allows even light armor classes to tank. However, this can't possibly work forever unless the tank is extremely good or the team very well coordinated, so a secondary tank is necessary.

This is what I believe will work most efficiently for most dungeons or pve scenarios, but a specific dungeon may require certain changes for best results. Please test this out and feel free to comment on how you think it works or with suggestions for improvement.

#2 dawdler

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 09:16 PM

Trying to define roles in a conventional manner is an excercise of futility. What you want are actually specific abilities, specific professions. For example, portal. This one skill make the Mesmer a required member of any effective dungeon team (in the Arah dungeon glowball section two mesmers will solve it in 5 seconds). But where do you squeeze in the Mesmer in your tank/dps/support/cc/bruiser hierarchy? Anywhere, that's where. Which makes it pointless to begin in that end.

#3 Chubby

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 12:48 PM

To put it in a nicer way, each profession can fulfill multiple 'roles'.  Yes, there will be tanking.  Yes, there will be CC-ing.  Yes, there will be DPS.  But each of these roles aren't fulfilled by separate individuals.

E.g. Necros can stack bleeds (DPS), epidemic (AOE), fear, blinds, chills/cripple ('CC'), plague chain-blind ('tank'), well of blood/transfusion (heal), signet of undeath (rally).  As dawdler said, you can fit a 'profession' in multiple roles.  That said, I think you are correct in the traditional sense for some roles, e.g. the 'tank' need to be melee and quite beefy (aggro places most priority on proximity).  But otherwise, there aren't concrete roles for individual member.

#4 matsif

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 07:52 PM

its hard to hold a tank in a party when there isn't a single class that can guarantee 100% aggro control in the game.  everyone needs a balance of survivability and dps, with CC and support being the only real variants in builds.

#5 Dokem

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 08:03 PM

Every class can do everything, but it is well known by now that some classes perform better in certain roles than others.

Also, in order to play a certain rol, I need to set my traits, skills and armor stats in a proper way to perform that rol, so even if I can perform any rol, I can perform only 1 at a time.

In that escenario, specialization is something needed in an organized dungeon group. We all know when there are dedicated support/healer members in the dungeon party, it goes much, much easier.

#6 Maxtofunator

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 05:09 PM

View PostDokem, on 05 November 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

Every class can do everything, but it is well known by now that some classes perform better in certain roles than others.

Also, in order to play a certain rol, I need to set my traits, skills and armor stats in a proper way to perform that rol, so even if I can perform any rol, I can perform only 1 at a time.

In that escenario, specialization is something needed in an organized dungeon group. We all know when there are dedicated support/healer members in the dungeon party, it goes much, much easier.

This isn't very accurate. As a mesmer, I can trait almost ENTIRELY into dealing damage through my greatsword, sword/pistol, and shatters, while making all of my utility skills group oriented skills, such as time warp, feedback, and nullfield, thus fulfilling BOTH damage and support.
The same thing goes for warriors and guardians, they can trait for support, be it healing or group condition removal or buffs, and be either really tanky or deal a lot of damage at the same time.
Or necromancers are very controlling while dealing insane amounts of damage.

So to be accurate, yes you may need people who are able to survive better than others, rather than nothing but backstab theves, somebody to help remove conditions and be supporty, and someone who can deal damage, but nothing out there says that can't be easily satisfied between 2 or 3 people, pretty much leaving the party nice and open to do whatever they want with traits.

#7 Aetou

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 05:35 PM

I disagree with the sharp distinction between roles.  The party as a whole needs certain capabilities (in particular, group cleanses and sufficient ways to reduce incoming damage) but that really doesn't need to be focused into five distinct roles that you have to slot your characters into (and splitting Support between 2-3 characters is often better than leaving it all to one guy.)

I've cleared Arah Explorable with 4 Elementalists (1 D/D, 1 S/D, 2 Staff) and a Mesmer - where everyone other than me (Support/Condition) was primarily set up for direct damage.  People shuffled Utilities and Traits for different fights as needed and we didn't really have any issues.  Why? Because we could keep up Protection and Weakness while putting out very good damage and, importantly, everyone knew how to dodge and minimise damage taken.  I also definitely prefer it if a boss' attention is spread out between the whole group, as it means that everyone can pop their defensives when needed and have them back by the time they get focused again -  I'm more than happy to spend 20% of a fight kiting the boss around while everyone else hits him and that approach works well as long as everyone in the group is competent (if you have derpy dps who can't handle being focused, of course, then you may need to protect them more.)

#8 ilr

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 07:40 PM

One quibble with the guide...   the Guardian  "Revive" for Support Role is a festering worthles piece of shit that doesn't even revive a badly hurt target ... and the ranger one is even buggier and often best replaced with Zephyr instead.

#9 Miteshu

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 10:21 PM

My class roles would be:

Control- Controls the battle through stuns, knockdown, pulls, knockbacks, fear, cripple, reflecting, remove boons, etc.

Tanky Support- Focuses on buffing friends and remove conditions. The tanky support is made to be tanky because he will be able to survive an heavy aoe while trying to revive a friend. He isn't there to take hits from the boss.

DPS/Nuker- Does a lot of damage.They have a job in taking things down quickly.

Kiter- Applies to anyone above. Whoever aggros the boss, kites him or die.

#10 Strife025

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 03:38 PM

2 guardians, 2 warriors, and a 5th situational (1 more warrior, thief, ele, or mesmer) is king right now. No group comp will clear dungeons as quickly and easily.

#11 Princess Fatora

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:18 PM

Quote

2 guardians, 2 warriors, and a 5th situational (1 more warrior, thief, ele, or mesmer) is king right now. No group comp will clear dungeons as quickly and easily.

1 Engineers, 2 Mesmers and 2 Necros laugh at that group and count loot before your group even sees the final boss in, say, Arah Exp. Just saying.

#12 Illein

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:22 PM

View PostPrincess Fatora, on 08 November 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

1 Engineers, 2 Mesmers and 2 Necros laugh at that group and count loot before your group even sees the final boss in, say, Arah Exp. Just saying.

"Crom laughs at your four winds. He laughs from his mountain."

Couldn't help myself! :D

#13 Kurosov

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 05:33 PM

Of you could just you know, play the dungeon.

With 5 balanced builds there is only one thing a team needs, communication. Over analyzing dungeon team setups is a waste of effort. The roles are no where near defined enough and a tank is outright not required.

Everyone in the team is expected to get hit at once time or another.

#14 Strife025

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 09:16 PM

View PostPrincess Fatora, on 08 November 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

1 Engineers, 2 Mesmers and 2 Necros laugh at that group and count loot before your group even sees the final boss in, say, Arah Exp. Just saying.

Nice troll bro.





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