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New Underwater Content: Balance Attached, Maybe?

balance underwater combat update

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#1 Soverine

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 08:49 PM

So, I haven't been the most up to date on the November 15th update, but I've heard it referred to as the "Sea of Sorrows" update, talk about beaches, and Anet's little post with some pirate speech there. Without Zhaitan's navy, you would think they would expand into underwater content, and that seems to be exactly what's being hinted at. But one big problem: Everyone hates it. Many will complain classes are even weaker, mobs are overpopulated.

So, whats your opinion on the idea of more underwater content? I want to believe Anet has at least acknowledge the distaste towards underwater content that people have. Because of this, I want to believe that the weapons may be tweaked to be more balanced, mostly. Personally, I don't have an issue with underwater content, being a Mesmer who uses a trident. But it's rather difficult to be very good at it when you spend almost no time down there. I think the last time I went underwater, even, was out of boredom while swimming on the surface in World versus World. I'd love to get more underwater content.

So what do you guys think Anet should do to make more underwater content... Well, be enjoyable? I'd like to see /better/ underwater content. Seems bland when you just get a bunch of water, a bunch of enemies, and at the ground too far down for you to see you might have a quaggan village. Strangely enough, I did like the design of Orr being a water environment on land, though. It's just, mid-high depth underwater content is nothing but enemies. The bottom is where everything is. And even then, it's mostly quaggans and gathering nodes. Sorry if I rambled ^^'

#2 Sundreamer

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 08:54 PM

I hope they keep it to the minimum...i dislike underwater combat...especially in orr...so you're trying to dodge around to avoid dmg? LOL NOPE LETS PULL 4 MORE MOBS LOL

#3 Malleus Maleficarum

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 09:19 PM

I like underwater combat, and i don't think it's that hard either in most cases.  It is harder for my Ele than my ranger or engineer, but overall it's fun

We don't really need more of it though.  There's enough of it as is- i just want some non-zombie combat at higher levels.

#4 ogrejd

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 03:42 AM

About the only things they could do to make underwater combat better would be to:

1) Widen the FOV and lengthen the zoom so that you could actually see your enemies when they move out from in front of you

2) Give an actual highlight on targeted critters so you can see where what you're aiming at actually is in a crowd (highlighting the name only is NOT enough)

3) Do something to stop enemies going invulnerable so often, even when they're in melee range and in open water. :/

4) Get rid of the artificial slowness of swimming. Feels like molasses down there, most of the time - especially when you have Krait and various fishes zooming around like methed up fleas.

...and other fixes I'm too tired to think of right now (twenty to one in the AM here). Even if those were implemented, that would only make underwater just tolerable enough that I won't be pissed off to see that I need an underwater heart/skill point/POI/vista for world completion. There is nothing they can do that will get me to voluntarily go underwater for events (ie, I'd only go for the mandatory stuff).

#5 Flaming_Foxx

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 03:47 AM

View Postogrejd, on 04 November 2012 - 03:42 AM, said:

About the only things they could do to make underwater combat better would be to:

1) Widen the FOV and lengthen the zoom so that you could actually see your enemies when they move out from in front of you

2) Give an actual highlight on targeted critters so you can see where what you're aiming at actually is in a crowd (highlighting the name only is NOT enough)

3) Do something to stop enemies going invulnerable so often, even when they're in melee range and in open water. :/

4) Get rid of the artificial slowness of swimming. Feels like molasses down there, most of the time - especially when you have Krait and various fishes zooming around like methed up fleas.

...and other fixes I'm too tired to think of right now (twenty to one in the AM here). Even if those were implemented, that would only make underwater just tolerable enough that I won't be pissed off to see that I need an underwater heart/skill point/POI/vista for world completion. There is nothing they can do that will get me to voluntarily go underwater for events (ie, I'd only go for the mandatory stuff).

On the official forum there are instructions for testing out the beta FoV. Which widens it to a point where on most screens it makes quite a bit difference :D.

Definitely agree with number 4. It is the bane of swimming. Especially if you consider that on land I think every class has a skill to activate (or a combo) a speed boost. It's no fun having to use a skill combo to get a 15 second speed boost on land and THEN have to go into the water.
Either I need underwater speed skills or it needs to not feel so slow.

#6 Primal Zed

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 03:49 AM

View Postogrejd, on 04 November 2012 - 03:42 AM, said:

4) Get rid of the artificial slowness of swimming. Feels like molasses down there, most of the time - especially when you have Krait and various fishes zooming around like methed up fleas.
I'm pretty sure you go just as fast underwater as you do on land.  If it seems like you're slower, it could just be because there's no immediate frame of reference (that the ground provides while on land).

#7 Running4Cover

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 04:02 AM

I'm not entirely against underwater combat being added, but I am 100% against the underwater combat that's currently in the game.  Controlling in three dimensions is clunky (see: dodge), mobs above and below are annoying as hell, and everything about it feels second-fiddle to "real" combat.  Nobody really cares about their underwater builds, half of your utility skills just don't work there, and there's no smooth transition from land to sea combat.  I treat underwater combat the way I treat a task that gives you it's own skillbar; it's entertaining, but it's not really the game I'm playing, just a diversion from using the land moves another thousand times.

So in short, if underwater was reworked, I wouldn't be against it, or maybe even if there was an emphasis on group underwater content it could be interesting for a bit, but otherwise I'd prefer they stick to land.

#8 Hep

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 04:07 AM

View PostPrimal Zed, on 04 November 2012 - 03:49 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure you go just as fast underwater as you do on land.  If it seems like you're slower, it could just be because there's no immediate frame of reference (that the ground provides while on land).

I believe he's referring to the acceleration and deceleration; not so much the maximum speed.

#9 Mister Stygian

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 04:14 AM

Underwater balance is really bad right now.  I have 5 of the classes at 80 and of those, mesmer is so far above any other that it is basically god mode.  Necromancer is a distant second with minions soaking damage for you and three life bars, theif and elementalist being kind of ordinary, and warrior is pretty much unplayable.

The other huge problem with underwater combat is the loss of aggro resulting in invulnerability.  Having to kill the same enemy two or more times is incredibly frustrating if you don't just have clones chasing them down for you.

Elite Skills underwater need to be worked on too in my opinion.

@OP-If you aren't using your spear as well on mesmer, you are really missing out.

Edited by Mister Stygian, 04 November 2012 - 04:34 AM.


#10 Var

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:13 AM

View PostMister Stygian, on 04 November 2012 - 04:14 AM, said:

Underwater balance is really bad right now.  I have 5 of the classes at 80 and of those, mesmer is so far above any other that it is basically god mode.  Necromancer is a distant second with minions soaking damage for you and three life bars, theif and elementalist being kind of ordinary, and warrior is pretty much unplayable.

Nuclear submarine = Engineer, they will tear apart any class underwater, mesmers included.

#11 Ardeni

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:31 AM

View PostSoverine, on 03 November 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

-Snip-
But one big problem: Everyone hates it.
-Snip-
Personally, I don't have an issue with underwater content, being a Mesmer who uses a trident.
-Snip-

I see a slight controversy there.

Either way, I wouldn't really mind more underwater content as long as they kept the amount of mobs in control. Underwater areas are beautiful, but you seriously don't have time to check out the sights due to the horde of mobs, due to which there is a mob placed on every single corner of the underwater areas.

I like my underwater weapons on my ranger and mesmer at least. I can see why people hate the underwater combat, though. They are given a set of skills that they haven't really used that much and (according to my experience) some classes become much stronger (mesmer) underwater while some others are nerfed a lot (thief).

#12 caveslug

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:34 AM

View PostVar, on 04 November 2012 - 06:13 AM, said:

Nuclear submarine = Engineer, they will tear apart any class underwater, mesmers included.

Pretty much this, my first 80 was Engineer. Everything else I have played after, feels like slapping mobs with a wet noodle when fighting under water.

#13 Soverine

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:38 AM

View PostArdeni, on 04 November 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

I see a slight controversy there.

Either way, I wouldn't really mind more underwater content as long as they kept the amount of mobs in control. Underwater areas are beautiful, but you seriously don't have time to check out the sights due to the horde of mobs, due to which there is a mob placed on every single corner of the underwater areas.

I like my underwater weapons on my ranger and mesmer at least. I can see why people hate the underwater combat, though. They are given a set of skills that they haven't really used that much and (according to my experience) some classes become much stronger (mesmer) underwater while some others are nerfed a lot (thief).

Everyone is a little bit of an exaggeration, but yeah, I've heard they're adding a water-based dungeon with this upcoming update. So yeah, really do hope that they take care of this balance before they throw that into the frying pan.

#14 Lokheit

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:54 AM

I DO like underwater combat. But I play as a Thief aka the completly unkillable god of the seas, so maybe I'm biased :P

The only problem I see is the limitation on utility there, but I expect them to do the Tornado/Whirlpool thing with every skill not currently usable underwater. During an AMA before launch, Izzy told me that summoned Thieves would probably be seen underwater, so my hopes are high.

I hope that this event comes with some underwater goodness (as we're probably being presented to the deep sea dragon and we will need that in the future hehe).

#15 Longasc

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:27 PM

How good that there is not even a consensus which class supposedly sucks and which rocks in underwater combat. :>
I harvest Orichalcum in Orr daily, this means I have to dive to get to many nodes.

I think underwater combat is fine as it is. What do you want to do differently? I even feel the swimming speed and dodging feel right.

How about... buying a proper underwater weapon, not one that is level 40 green at level 80? And getting a proper breather?
Because THAT is the main reason why so many players get stomped underwater.

P.S. I think Rangers totally pwn other classes and mobs underwater. For PvE Warriors just rip through mobs like on land, so what? The only class that really struggles under water is IMO Elementalists.

#16 ogrejd

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 01:46 PM

View PostFlaming_Foxx, on 04 November 2012 - 03:47 AM, said:

On the official forum there are instructions for testing out the beta FoV. Which widens it to a point where on most screens it makes quite a bit difference :D.

I activated that the day it was implemented. However, it's not nearly good enough. It gives a little bit more vertical FOV, but does almost nothing for the extremely narrow horizontal FOV (which still seems to be at around 70 degrees instead of a more proper 90-95 degrees)

#17 Kenril

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 02:36 PM

The biggest problem I have with underwater combat at the moment, is how long it takes to kill a mob. If they reduced the monsters hit points, it would make things a bit more bearable. And I feel the same goes for dungeons, basic trash often takes too long to kill, its just not fun !

#18 Xodiak

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 03:45 AM

Oh good lord, I really DETEST current Orr underwater combat.. too many mobs, can't see around you nearly enough, stupid spawn rates/linked mobs.. just not fun. It's not a challenge, it's just not fun.

#19 Shamadamun

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 03:49 AM

I think its unfortunate, because I really love underwater - but my abilities as a guardian are absolutely HORRENDOUS. I go from being this awesome tanky doombringer on land to a squishy little guppie underwater. If my abilities weren't so bad I would welcome underwater content.

#20 Kyonshee

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 09:49 AM

I liked underwater combat at first.....it was something new, something different....added a little extra to the game, having seperate underwater skills and not having to gasp for air every minute. But all that changed when the Risen attacked.

Underwater combat is doable as some....but so far I've had trouble on any class that is even remotely squishy. You have nowhere to dodge to since you'll just pull extra mobs, "sink" skills usually only get in your way and your waterskills feel like tiny little bugbites compared to what you do on land.

I really, really, really hope the new content won't be packed with underwater combat, or god forbid, underwater dungeons. I hate it almost as much as I hate stepping on LEGO's.

#21 Fenice_86

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:24 AM

As long as they restore Whirlpool at full power (in pve) i could be "half fine" with underwater combat... ele's autoattacks really su**s

#22 Gilles VI

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:31 AM

View PostRunning4Cover, on 04 November 2012 - 04:02 AM, said:

I
So in short, if underwater was reworked, I wouldn't be against it, or maybe even if there was an emphasis on group underwater content it could be interesting for a bit, but otherwise I'd prefer they stick to land.

Please don't give them the idea of incorporating underwater combat in dungeons ever again.
HotW path 2& 3 are one of the worst boss fights I've ever done.. :P

View PostLongasc, on 04 November 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

How about... buying a proper underwater weapon, not one that is level 40 green at level 80? And getting a proper breather?
Because THAT is the main reason why so many players get stomped underwater.


Yeah I had that! :P
At lvl80 I was doing ridiculous little damage, I looked at my weapons and they were lvl 35 or something..

#23 Aetou

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:49 AM

View PostLongasc, on 04 November 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

I think underwater combat is fine as it is. What do you want to do differently? I even feel the swimming speed and dodging feel right.

How about... buying a proper underwater weapon, not one that is level 40 green at level 80? And getting a proper breather?
Because THAT is the main reason why so many players get stomped underwater.

P.S. I think Rangers totally pwn other classes and mobs underwater. For PvE Warriors just rip through mobs like on land, so what? The only class that really struggles under water is IMO Elementalists.

I think that for a lot of classes damage underwater could do with a 10-20% boost to put it closer to on-land values.  Adding Exotic Rebreathers to the HOTW vendor could also be a good idea.  All my characters run Exotic 78 or 80 weapons underwater and while I do find some issues that arise out of the relative lack of choice of weapons (you ideally want melee and ranged condition and direct weapons for each class) a lot of the perceived weakness is because certain land weapon combos and trait setups are rather OP and the underwater weapon sets are on a par with the average/weaker land weapons instead of, for example, Greatswords.  In Orr the density of mobs is also more of an issue than on land and could perhaps do with being thinned slightly.

All that said, I don't really have any issues on my Ele, Ranger or Guardian now I've spent some time working out good underwater setups for them all (which generally involves more high damage utilities than I'd use on land.)

#24 turbo234

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:54 AM

thin out mobs underwater so it's not a pain to move around. combat is hard enough, you need to kite more and you just end up pulling in more enemies.
skales specifically need less regen. having it up 100% of the time without the proper skills(at a lower level) makes it near impossible to kill them with straight damage and no bleed/poison.

#25 Arquenya

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 11:37 AM

Yes I try to avoid underwater combat whenever possible (warrior and ranger) and never do any underwater DE. I also see underwater DE's being largely avoided by players, like the "giant shark" being active all day. So I guess I'm not the only one.

As long as a lot of classes are very much underpowered underwater (compared to land combat), there's an extreme lot of spawns and "invulnerable" stuff people just get annoyed by "new underwater content". ANet better fix it and then add stuff.

#26 Linfang

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 11:42 AM

At early levels Under water combat was fun. But as the game progressed it because a headache. Oceans and deep bodies of water are the worst experience because they add layers of mobs in an already mob dense area. So if you ascend or descend in a fight you can pull crap above and below you.  

They need to add craftable underwater masks with better stats and have underwater related runes/signets. Why they decided to rule out this entire equipment slot to vendor junk is beyond me.

#27 badra al duun

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:44 PM

I've never minded underwater content as Ra or Wa, except when veterans glitch and become invulnerable for no reason.  This happened 3 damn times in a row to me yesterday doing a DE in Maelstrom... get the guy to about half life, he becomes invulnerable and starts healing while I desperately try switching weapons and repositioning... he heals up, and suddenly is hitting me again.

SO FRUSTRATING. I left, and the whole thing has left a bad taste in my mouth about the content.

But really, when that bullshit isn't happening, it's kinda unique/fun/whatev.

#28 sevalaricgirl

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 06:49 PM

View PostLongasc, on 04 November 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

The only class that really struggles under water is IMO Elementalists.

I completely agree with this.  I have no problems with my other classes under water but my elementalist has a difficult time even with karma weapon and mask for her level.  Not fun at all.

#29 blindude

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 06:53 PM

View Postsevalaricgirl, on 08 November 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

I completely agree with this.  I have no problems with my other classes under water but my elementalist has a difficult time even with karma weapon and mask for her level.  Not fun at all.
But ele is a cc beast under water.The only problem i had that i needed to get used to is that water instead of heals had very good damaging abilities :o

#30 AndrewSX

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 06:57 PM

View Postcaveslug, on 04 November 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

Pretty much this, my first 80 was Engineer. Everything else I have played after, feels like slapping mobs with a wet noodle when fighting under water.


Ahaha, me too...

'Nades underwater is like nuclear submarine missiles barrage no stop.





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