314 replies to this topic

[DuskWolf]

@XPhiler

You say my points are 'false,' and yet you're having trouble dealing with myself and other people who're logically pointing out the issues with the game. I won't deal with mad tirades and rabid fanboyism, instead, I'll continue to reiterate what the problem is, as it continues to be a problem for me. (As someone who isn't blinded by cognitive dissonance.)

As others have detailed: The issue is that the game is dumbed down to the point where it becomes a zerg. This is what I've been saying from the start, this is what most of the complaints say, and this is what that thread on the official forums highlight as the primary problem.

As I said, mobs don't work together, they don't res each other, they don't use the environment, and they just make a bee-line for the player. Pick any Shatterer video and watch the mobs, you can see them just running like kamikaze HP distraction bombs at the player. There's no strategy involved in taking them down, it's just trading blows with them until they fall over. Seriously, just search 'guild wars 2 shatterer' on Youtube and take your pick, then watch.

As has also been pointed out, in GW1, you had foes that could slow you 90%, cripple, blind, fear, and do other terrible things to you, whilst healing and resurrecting their own. In GW1 you had melee foes body blocking you intelligently to stop you from getting at ranged casters, but you don't have body blocking in GW2, so it's easy to just run up to the caster who's already zerged into close range for you, anyway.

As for the players? Look at who's arguing with you and what they're saying about support abilities. There aren't nearly enough tactics involved, it's just damage versus damage. This is what every complaint against the game has said: It's a damage versus damage zerg. There's no intellect required, you just faceroll 1-5 to victory. This is what I've said, this is what others in this thread have said, and this is what people on the official forums are saying.

This is versus Guild Wars 1, where you needed spatial awareness, you needed to understand movement and tactical placement of yourself and your party, you needed to be able to deal with teh mobs working together, you had to work tactically because the mobs were very good at manipulating and herding players. In Guild Wars 1, you'll see a lot of mobility in the players, in GW2, you'll see everyone standing very still until a red circle appears.

It's just a very, very dumbed down experience. Which is fine if you like that! Some people really like dumbed down experiences. Look at Modern Warfare and Medal of Honour, they almost play themselves. Some people really dig that! There's just a lot of handholding, you zerg through one mission to the next, and that's what they like. For them, that's a 10/10 game. But it isn't for me, and you need to understand that.

I want: Intelligent mobs, and abilities which allow and even require the player to respond intelligently.

For me, comparing Guild Wars 1 to Guild Wars 2 is like comparing... oh, I don't know, Dragon Age: Origins to Mass Effect 3. The mechanics have been oversimplified. The AI does nothing but run at you swinging a sword, this is what we were promised it wouldn't be. Every event involves AI running at you with a sword in cut & past scenarios. The game feels unfun because of how incredibly repetitive it is. And you can't do anything other than zerg back.

They promised us that the game would be more fun than that, that it would have more variety, that it would require the intelligent responses of Guild Wars 1. All of these things were lies from my perspective. Maybe not from yours, because you like simplified, dumbed down experiences, but from mine they are lies. Because I don't want that. I don't want difficulty from a mob that can one shot a smaller health pool, I want it from mobs that know how to work with each other, and how to use buffs, debuffs, heals, resurrects, and positioning smartly.

No GW2 foe that I've seen knows how to use any of those things.

This is why there's so many static players in GW2 videos. Because you just stand there. You swing a sword, you swing a sword again, that's great, but I want more than that from my MMORPGs. I was promised more. And the person who you're not at all successfully arguing with is explaining to you why this is a problem, and you're just being an overzealous fanboy nad trying to undermine everyone who has a valid point to make. Just because you can't stand the idea that we might actually be right.

Again, I bring up the flamethrower. Here's what it could do: It could apply an 'I AM ON FIRE!!!' debuff. This debuff will make the foe rapidly run around, as though feared, whilst flailing, occasionally falling to the ground to try and put it out. The more you focus on a foe and the weaker the foe is in general means the effect will apply more often. By spewing the flamethrower around in a wide area, you might apply it to a lot of weak foes after a little while. This kind of crowd control would be fun.

In Guild Wars 1 you'd have mobs react intelligently to this by casting heals on the guys who're on fire, and having other mobs move in to body block you so that you can't take advantage of them being locked down. They might even try similar things on you to lock you down. They might even try to cast a water spell to put it out, and you'd have to interrupt this to keep them on fire. All of this requires observation and intelligent response.

But Guild Wars 2 doesn't really have crowd control in this sense, it doesn't require intelligence, it's just damage vs damage. Every encounter is damage vs damage. Look up that Shatterer video on Youtube, like I suggested, and you'll understand. It's just a very, very dumbed down game. It's great for people who like MMS, and I suppose it's also great for WoW fans, as WoW didn't have much in the way of tactics either (outside of perhaps certain raids, but addons took even that away), but for me? For this, here player?

It's just not enough.

I'm not wrong. You're not wrong. You like MMS-style, simplified experiences with dumb mobs. You like games where you don't have to do anything intelligent, you just attack the mobs and they attack you. What I want... What I want... is a game that requires intelliigence on my part. GW1 is such a game, Champions Online is such a game, right now, Guild Wars 2 is simply not such a game.

Now ArenaNet has two choices: If they think the dumbed down approach works, they can keep it dumbed down. They can keep the damage vs damage zergs. Or if they want people like me on board, they can add challenge via actual tactics. It just depends on how successful the game will be. But considering how empty I've seen the game looking, lately? Even on the events like Halloween? I'm thinking that I'm right.

I hope it gets better, but right now? I can't care much. I want to see this game become amazing, but fans who want just this dumbed down thing are beating that out of me.

Edited by DuskWolf, 11 November 2012 - 07:38 PM.

[DuskWolf]

Segraine, on 11 November 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

I don't have a problem with damage being added to support skills. It is when that is reversed and the support characteristics are not the focus of the skill that I dislike. The support ability isn't as strong as the damage numbers, essentially. I am the type of player who likes to augment my ally's abilities to kill or surivive more than kill myself. I am a bit of a pacifist

By direct control, I mean the ability to select and choose whom I want to use a skill upon. Part of the tactics of a battle is watching the field and choosing an ally a support skill will have the best effect. While you can do this to some degree with AOE selection, it feels like a sledgehammer to a scapel.  I deeply miss the ritualist weapon spells. I enjoyed casting a Weapon of Aggression on a warrior or an assassin just before they unloaded their spike or cast a Vital Weapon on an ally just before they received a spike from the enemy. In GW2, you simply can't do that. I don't even care about the lack of direct healing. What I miss are the scapel level tactics of combat and the ability to quietly shift the field of battle. That is why I gave GW2 a mid-range rate. It is fun, but all the damage and direct killing gets old for me. The combo system is okay, but a more strategic combo system for parties would be better.

Exactly. It amazes me that people fail to understand this very point.

Mobs don't have these skills, players don't have these skills, instead it's just a big whack-a-mole zerg experience where everyone runs at each other and slams away until one or the other falls over. The mobs in GW1 were intelligent and required intelligent responses. The mobs in GW2 are glorified piñatas. You stand there with your team, using your damage dealing things, just hammering away with giant, damage dealing things, and the mobs do the same. But where are the eloquent, refined tactics of GW1?

It's just disappointing. It reminds me of WoW more than GW1. But I guess some people like WoW and dumbed down experiences. That makes me sad. This game could be great... but right now it really is just too dumbed down for me.

Edit: You know, it occurs to me... maybe the issue is, on one part, that mobs don't have player abilities any more. So they don't have the same kind of bar of skills that we do. They just have attacks. Then ArenaNet looked at what the mobs were doing, and dumbed down player skills to fit that. Maybe mobs need to have player skills in order to engender tactical systems. I just don't know. :|

Edit - TL;DR: I guess what I'm trying to say is that I find GW2 inelegant and unfun. It's more 'HURR HURR, HULK SMASH!' than the glorious dance that Guild Wars 1 was. If you had a good fight in the Underworld in GW1, it felt mildly amazing. There was an art to it. That made it a really fun experience. GW2, by comparison, is dumbed down, low brow smashy-smashy. Which people like, I get that, but it's just not for me.

Edited by DuskWolf, 11 November 2012 - 07:52 PM.

[XPhiler]

Segraine, on 11 November 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

I don't have a problem with damage being added to support skills. It is when that is reversed and the support characteristics are not the focus of the skill that I dislike. The support ability isn't as strong as the damage numbers, essentially. I am the type of player who likes to augment my ally's abilities to kill or surivive more than kill myself. I am a bit of a pacifist

By direct control, I mean the ability to select and choose whom I want to use a skill upon. Part of the tactics of a battle is watching the field and choosing an ally a support skill will have the best effect. While you can do this to some degree with AOE selection, it feels like a sledgehammer to a scapel.  I deeply miss the ritualist weapon spells. I enjoyed casting a Weapon of Aggression on a warrior or an assassin just before they unloaded their spike or cast a Vital Weapon on an ally just before they received a spike from the enemy. In GW2, you simply can't do that. I don't even care about the lack of direct healing. What I miss are the scapel level tactics of combat and the ability to quietly shift the field of battle. That is why I gave GW2 a mid-range rate. It is fun, but all the damage and direct killing gets old for me. The combo system is okay, but a more strategic combo system for parties would be better.

hmm I understand what you mean and while I do agree with what you say in the second paragraph cause you're right not just support but the combat system did switch from a sort of micro level of strategy  to a macro level of strategy, not just in support but all across the board. Even in the damage department in gw1 most skills worked based on certain conditions being met. Spread poison if target ally dies, enemy takes damage if they cast a skill etc... thats gone but its been replaced with a different set of strategy. now instead of focusing on singular elements you have to consider the bigger view, the tactical situation of the battlefield. Who needs support? where best to focus on, which attack best suits the current situation, is it advantageous to cripple, is it advantages to buff, is it advantages to debuff, and many such consideration. Its not better or worst just different in my view. Of course some will like the old approach better while others might like the new approach better.

as for skills having a more combat approach i dont really think so. I mean from my point of view every skill is kinda generic, it doesnt have a specific purpose it all depends on how you use it. This to me is actually a more realistic approach cause even in real life most things can be used for a wide degree of  different tasks. Like a simple screw driver can be used to kill people not just to fix things. It can also be used as a way to steal (dismantle a door)  It can be used as a communication tool (engrave something)! anyhow back to the point. GW2 is built on purpose in such a way that group events cannot be soloed. Every single role is gimped and not self sufficient be it damage, support or tanking. If you go solo against a champion and focus on damage you're going to fail. if you focus on support you're going to fail and if you focus on tanking you're going to fail as well. You're not weaker then damage you might simply just not have the numbers to be as effective as damage when taken as a group as a whole. However as someone who focuses 1/2 his focus on support I personally find support to be very strong even when soloing it. Good timing on interrupts / blinds have more then once saved from certain death in the game.

Of course this is just my view, not saying you're wrong in any way, rather only that I view this whole role thing a bit differently then you
and yes I totally agree that they didnt fact change all roles from a micro role to a macro role and shifted the strategy from having to focus on a single target to having to focus on a lot of things at once, totally in agreement there!

[Omega X]

Nam Otatop, on 11 November 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

At the end of the day, would you still be playing this if you had to pay a monthly fee? I bet most of you wouldn't. That's GW2s saving grace, it has no sub fee, if it did it would have been a colossal flop.

Virtually every MMO that's not WoW.

[Nam Otatop]

blindude, on 11 November 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

Just so we understand each other i wouldnt rate a 5 swtor either. This is not a poll about rating gw2 s success at reaching god status in the genre,Neither is it a poll that you rate it based on your favourite game of all times i think so.
The rest is just your opinion and nothing more.Let me rate my 8-9 and i ll let you with your 4-5 ..but stop inflicting your opinions on the world.

Ah good, yet again no evidence of why the game deserves that rating which compounds your own admission of being a fanboi. Well actually it is a poll about rating GW2 success as an MMO, we're not comparing it to FPS or racing games are we? End of the day 5 is an average score, don't go round blasting people for rating it a 5 then telling people who call you out that you should be allowed your own opinion. One rule for us and another for you much? Just so you know i rated it 2 not 5 aswell, now that is a poor score

[XPhiler]

@duskwolf.

Correction, I didnt simply say your statement are false, I explained in detail why I think they're false yet your answer to my analysis is simply "I won't deal with mad tirades and rabid fanboyism, instead, I'll continue to reiterate what the problem is, as it continues to be a problem for me."

Also how can anyone ever claim not to be effected by cognitive dissonance. The whole point of cognitive dissonance is that you're not aware of it if you have it! how do you know that this whole thinking that the game is dumped down isnt actually stemming because of cognitive dissonance? perhaps you want to believe the game is dumped down because you dont want to like the existent complexity and would rather enjoy the complexity offered by gw1! Not saying you are, would never presume such a thing. No one should ever presume such a thing in my opinion simply because you're blindingly accusing people of something that cant be proven or dis-proven.

I am sorry but you're just hiding behind cognitive dissonance way too much dismissing everyone's conflicting opinion because you tell yourself they're not being objective which ironically makes you not objective.

for example I already explained to you in detail the same behaviours you say the game lacks. even linked you videos (I dont know did the video of the centaur kiting the player have cognitive dissonance as well? How about the video of the npc dodging the players attack? Go to AC, find a monk and you will see him heal his allies. While you're there see the rangers stay back, cripple you to keep you other of reach while being charged by melee enemies. I could give more examples, simply speaking what you're looking for is in the game. Thats not what is missing. The problem is the game as it is, is too easy but guess what so was gw1 before they introduced hard mode. Sure npcs could support each other, they could res each other. did that ever give you any trouble while playing in easy mode? be honest! does that mean that gw1 didnt have intelligent AI before they introduced hard mode years after gw1 release? You're mixing two different things. there is a difference between simplistic AI and an easy / hard game!

Funny how you're always talking about cognitive dissonance but then seem to be unfamiliar with analogous situations such as herd mentality. Yes sure some people think combat is simplistic how does that prove or even more make combat simplistic?
Once again I explained all this to you in detail yet you conveniently ignored all I told you hiding behind others say this as well. I am sorry but that doesnt prove anything. If you disagree fine, never ever claimed I am always 100% right but at least address specific points!

Yes I agree in many situations you could dominate by spamming skills 1-5 as they come out of cooldown, never said that isnt true and have claimed many times not just in this thread that i believe the game is simply too easy as it is. But I am happy they seem to be addressing this starting from the new patch. I will reserve my judgement until I try this new dungeon that gets progressively harder before though. Anyhow once again that doesnt prove the game is simplistic, like I told you in my last reply to you, you can face glint challenge and win AFK if you have the right build, dont even need to use a single skill so does that suddenly make gw1 combat more shallow then gw2? of course not! its not the difficulty of the encounters thats make a combat complex or simple, its the combat mechanics and the complexity is definitely there in gw2! (also forget spamming 1-5 in a dungeon and having much success) like wise in gw1 open world on easy mode was pretty easy too, you didnt need any complex build or really good strategy. Except for a few zones you could just use any build and do it no problem!

And once again you compeletly ignored the whole paragraph I wrote to you about spacial awareness in gw2. I am sorry but your behavior makes me think you just argueing for the sake of argueing. I mean seriously I wrote you all of this on the subject

Tactical movement is essential. Stand still and you'll get damaged more, weapons are more effective abased on your positioning. Short bow does more damage up close, long bow does more damage the further you are, Necrotic Grasp (necro staff basic attack) goes through enemies damaging all those that it hits so with good positioning you hit multiple enemies and they will try to break formation to avoid that so you'll need to keep repositioning yourself!

your answer to that: how positioning is important in gw1 (I have no problem with that, still think gw1 is an amazing game and never said otherwise and on gw2 your whole argument in response to all that is said in spoil tag above was "in GW2, you'll see everyone standing very still until a red circle appears." Never mind that I dont see everyone standing still at all but even so how does that make anything I said false? how does that in any way imply that closing the distance with a short bow is a good tactical decision as it will make you do more damage? how does that change the fact that if you're playing a necro, lining your opponents is a good tactical decision as your basic attack will hit more then 1 target? isnt that a good reason to move around in combat?

I am sorry but not, it isnt a very dumbed down experience just because you choose that its a very dumbed down experiance! Like wise just cause you might decide to stand still and only move when you see a red circle it doesnt mean that there is no need to move until you see a red circle. And unlike you I am not just saying that I gave you plenty of reasons why you should move: Increase damage dealt, decrease damage received, get in range to be able to support allies, move out of the way to transfer aggro to pets / minions. And well while we're there, how about jumping puzzles? no need to move or have spacial awareness there too in your opinion?

So let me see if I understood this, you're complaining that enemies behavior is over simplified because you claim (which isnt even true) that enemies just damage, dont support, dont condition. Yet you want the flame thrower to fear / interrupt indefinitely allowing the enemy do nothing not even damage you. dont you think that would be really bad? And why what would that gain you? more realistic feedback? if games went for realism they'd be super boring. 1 arrow kills you! you dont need to be hit by 20 of them to die! so does a single sword swing! never mind being hit with a meteor on your head!  all games have to sacrifice realism for fun! I hope you can at least see that!

"No GW2 foe that I've seen knows how to use any of those things"
yes they do! I will bite once Just this once I will show this to you though I am pretty sure you're not really interested in debating as shown by ignoring every single thing I told you anyhow.

This video:

1:32 -> enemy mesmer engages reflect projectiles
1.34 - > enemy mesmer cripples warrior to buy itself time having dealt with ranged attacks (reflect projectiles)
1.36 -> enemy inflicts bleeding (seem it uses conditions after all)
1.38 -> enemy mesmer inflicts 2 stacks of confusion (so far this is the 3rd condition used)

2.42 -> enemy monk joins the fray. So what does the monk do combat wise according to its information.. ohh look heal allies!

2.56 -> enemy guardian inflicts imobilize on warrior not the engineer or the guardian who have ranged attack.. wise little npc yet at the same time he inflicts posion on everyone!

3.35 -> enemy imobilizes yet another warrior! and again it chose not to immobilize a range attacker wasting the condition

4.19 -> enemy elementalist tries to run away, enemy monk runs after him, I wonder, could it be so he keeps in range in order to be able toheal his ally?

6.05,-> ranger lays trap to keep party away by mass cripplign them.

anyway I hope thats enough to convince you its indeed there!  in just 6 minutes of combat we've seen NPCs healing others, cripple, immobilize, bleed, posion and use traps. We also seen an npc try to gain distance and a healer npc move in range to be able to heal them!

Also I hoped you noticed the engineer and the guardian were never standing still. So I guess not everyone only moves on red circles after all?

Also wierd how dontain was always talking about how he could support allies by increasing damage and which skill combos would maximize his damage output!

"This is why there's so many static players in GW2 videos. Because you just stand there. You swing a sword, you swing a sword again, that's great, but I want more than that from my MMORPGs." then do more! the combat system allows way more to simply lauch a basic attack! Never played any game that allows so much flexibility in combat with one class! Yet you just dont want to see past your opinion to see what more is offered, thats not the fault of the game in anyway! Like I already told you, my necro build allows me to: "interrupt, help your friends(do more/ take less damage, survivability), help your pets/minions (do more/ take less damage, survivability), help yourself (do more/ take less damage, survivability), gives you skills to escape when in trouble, gives you skills to prevent others who are trying to escape." I also asked you to give me a build from any game that offers that yet you didnt mention any, was that an oversight? or cause you couldnt find any?

ohh please what empty game? I logged on every single day on the halloween event and no matter what halloween content I played at any time I would always end up on an overflow!

when the mad king dungeon was unveiled there were at least 3 overflows because all my party was on an overflow and we were  split into 3 set of people that couldnt see each other. And every single day I run across many people including starter zones! maybe your server is empty I dont know, doubt it to be honest just checked this second and I only see 4 medium servers, 5 full and the rest high! not one low!

so in conclusion feel free to think everyone that spends their time explaining to you how the combat system is a lot more deep then you seem to be able to see because in your opinion they're suffering from cognitive dissonance as much as you want! in the end people will stop taking you seriously if you disagree with all they say and the only point you put forward is you're under the effect of cognitive dissonance. Its up to you!

I explained every single bit in great detail cause I though i owe you that much when I disagreed with all you said yet what did you do ? dismissed everything I said because you think I am not objective, wrote a wall of text but didnt really say anything! Explaining how great gw1 is doesnt explain what flaws gw2 is and summerizing flaws to "in GW2, you'll see everyone standing very still until a red circle appears." or "No GW2 foe that I've seen knows how to use any of those things." or "But Guild Wars 2 doesn't really have crowd control in this sense, it doesn't require intelligence, it's just damage vs damage. Every encounter is damage vs damage."

doesnt really say anything! they're all subjective statements that I for one dont agree in the least! plenty of reason to move around and gave you a comprehensive list. Posted video proof that foes in gw2 do indeed do those things and offered plenty of proof how there is way more then damage to gw2 combat! A single class for one can do plenty of support and tanking yet you ignore all that and say its just damage! sorry but with all due respect you're just wrong!

[Age]

I still rate this as #2 as it reminds me more of LoTR more than GW and yes I bought it just to keep my names.

Edited by Age, 12 November 2012 - 02:42 AM.

[Draxas]

I voted 7.  I think it's a great game overall and sets the new standard on several fronts for the MMO genre.  I can't imagine any new game being too successful without dynamic events, an active combat system with dodging or other twitch-based actions, and exploration rewards.  Another thing that they got right is the scaled-down hotbar with fewer but more significant abilities (compared to other MMOs where you have to hotkey like 40 skills).  In general, the combat is snappy and responsive and feels good, which feels great after dealing with clunky skill delay and other such things in the recent past (looking at you, Swtor!).

However, I am no longer playing the game.  I logged in a bit for the Halloween stuff and will do so again for this new content patch on the 15th.  I'm simply bored, and disillusioned about WvW, which is my primary activity in the game when I do play.  The culling issue KILLS WvW for me.  I dealt with it for a long time, but the irritation of doing so has worn me down.  It really, really sucks to not load all of the opponents until the fight is already decided.  I hate it, and it's not conducive to good PvP.  The rating system is also a complete sham with free transfers being open, and the once a week transfer thing is not a fix for it at all.  Not even slightly.  The problem is people transferring from losing servers onto winning ones, and it's not necessary to transfer more than once a week at all to accomplish that.  It also creates dead servers in the upper brackets that effectively spoil matches for weeks as they work their way down, causing games to be effectively 1v1, which the system is not built for.  Once one of those servers gets a lot of momentum, there is no wild card 3rd server to punish them for overextending.  Oh and by the way, winning is losing, since when you win a bunch of immature people will transfer onto your server, ruining your community, forcing a lot of the good guilds away and drastically increasing your queue times.  

Removing orbs was a step in the right direction, I was happy to hear about that, but I won't be satisfied and come back to play the game on a regular basis until culling is fixed, and free transfers are closed.

On another note, I would be happier with structured PvP if they added at least a couple more game types other than Conquest.  It just gets old really quick.  Even the TORtanic launched with 3 totally distinct PvP game types, and even though the core gameplay sucked, the instanced PvP kept me entertained longer than this game.  Think about that for a moment, it's a travesty that this is the case.  This game has great gameplay, but PvP is simply too repetitive.  This was requested before launch, and the gist of the dev reply was that Conquest remaining the only game type was important for the game, that they had designed PvP around it or something.  What a total abject failure at listening to player feedback.

The PvE experience of leveling 1-80 is second to none.  I hardly noticed the levels going by on my first character as I blazed through content and explored a fair few nooks and crannies off to the side.  One thing I would want changed though, is greatly improved loot from champion mobs, and from the chests at the end of jumping puzzles, caves and such.  It's all blue crap that I would never use.

I really hate the experience of Orr, mostly due to there being mobs everywhere that yank me all over the place, slow me and otherwise harass me.  The only purpose of being there is to do the DEs, I will see one pop up somewhere, run towards it and get REALLY irritated from the mob harassment on the way.  It servers no purpose, the zone is not hard if you're a good player, I have yet to die from this.  It is just a pain in the neck trying to get around.

The game desperately needs multiple new level 80 specific zones to explore.  The only thing I have left to do progression-wise is farm money to get T3 racial armors and the like, but I hate Orr too much to be able to stomach getting my money from DEs there.  Even if I didn't hate it, I would get bored with doing the same DEs over and over, with the same scenery and zombies all around, for days and weeks and months.

Some classes still have glaring issues with traits, many of them not working entirely or simply being poorly designed.  When I look at a Necro's traits for example, it's a matter of picking the 3 or so traits in each tree that don't completely suck, rather than having to agonize over the choice and carefully consider each one, which is the case with the Guardian.  Some classes simply got more love than others, and I don't think that anyone can objectively deny this.  It's blatantly obvious.  We are two and a half months in, why has this not been addressed more promptly?  

Some classes are also just more boring than others, Rangers for example.  The majority of what they do is auto-attack with some situational stuff on the side, despite the supposed design of the game being to the contrary ("I swing my sword, I swing it again, etc.").  Some other specific weapons are guilty of this throughout the game, Necro scepter for example.  Others are completely brokenly useless at their intentional role, Guardian scepter I'm looking at you.  Let's give a weapon 1200 range, but make the projectile travel so slowly that it will absolutely, positively never hit a moving target at half that range, great idea!  I can't even fathom the design decision behind that.  If it's not meant to be viable at that range, then make it lower range and quit teasing us already.  Much feedback has been given about it, and it was all either ignored, or the decision maker in question simply thinks they know better.

Lastly, please just get rid of MF gear entirely and raise the drop rates for stuff to compensate.  I resent having to carry around and/or store this entire extra set of gear that makes me weaker, just so I can accomplish the task of making money that I am there for.  Keep it on food maybe, but with it on armor, I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't.  I just want to be able to put my gear on that I want for my particular build and call it a day.

I realize that sounds like a lot of complaints for me to still rate it a 7.  I did discuss some particular points I really liked, and overall I think the game is really fun and has the most potential of any game currently released.  If they fix WvW that will be enough to bring me back, and raise my rating to 8.  Add in some extra PvE zones for 80s to explore and farm in, without the mob annoyance factor, and it will be a 9.  All the other tweaks I mentioned would earn it a 10 from me, and my almost guaranteed long-term patronage of the game.  The potential is there, I can see it, but some things simply have to change.

[Perm Shadow Form]

DuskWolf, on 11 November 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

Spoiler

@XPhiler

You say my points are 'false,' and yet you're having trouble dealing with myself and other people who're logically pointing out the issues with the game. I won't deal with mad tirades and rabid fanboyism, instead, I'll continue to reiterate what the problem is, as it continues to be a problem for me. (As someone who isn't blinded by cognitive dissonance.)

As others have detailed: The issue is that the game is dumbed down to the point where it becomes a zerg. This is what I've been saying from the start, this is what most of the complaints say, and this is what that thread on the official forums highlight as the primary problem.

As I said, mobs don't work together, they don't res each other, they don't use the environment, and they just make a bee-line for the player. Pick any Shatterer video and watch the mobs, you can see them just running like kamikaze HP distraction bombs at the player. There's no strategy involved in taking them down, it's just trading blows with them until they fall over. Seriously, just search 'guild wars 2 shatterer' on Youtube and take your pick, then watch.

As has also been pointed out, in GW1, you had foes that could slow you 90%, cripple, blind, fear, and do other terrible things to you, whilst healing and resurrecting their own. In GW1 you had melee foes body blocking you intelligently to stop you from getting at ranged casters, but you don't have body blocking in GW2, so it's easy to just run up to the caster who's already zerged into close range for you, anyway.

As for the players? Look at who's arguing with you and what they're saying about support abilities. There aren't nearly enough tactics involved, it's just damage versus damage. This is what every complaint against the game has said: It's a damage versus damage zerg. There's no intellect required, you just faceroll 1-5 to victory. This is what I've said, this is what others in this thread have said, and this is what people on the official forums are saying.

This is versus Guild Wars 1, where you needed spatial awareness, you needed to understand movement and tactical placement of yourself and your party, you needed to be able to deal with teh mobs working together, you had to work tactically because the mobs were very good at manipulating and herding players. In Guild Wars 1, you'll see a lot of mobility in the players, in GW2, you'll see everyone standing very still until a red circle appears.

It's just a very, very dumbed down experience. Which is fine if you like that! Some people really like dumbed down experiences. Look at Modern Warfare and Medal of Honour, they almost play themselves. Some people really dig that! There's just a lot of handholding, you zerg through one mission to the next, and that's what they like. For them, that's a 10/10 game. But it isn't for me, and you need to understand that.

I want: Intelligent mobs, and abilities which allow and even require the player to respond intelligently.

For me, comparing Guild Wars 1 to Guild Wars 2 is like comparing... oh, I don't know, Dragon Age: Origins to Mass Effect 3. The mechanics have been oversimplified. The AI does nothing but run at you swinging a sword, this is what we were promised it wouldn't be. Every event involves AI running at you with a sword in cut & past scenarios. The game feels unfun because of how incredibly repetitive it is. And you can't do anything other than zerg back.

They promised us that the game would be more fun than that, that it would have more variety, that it would require the intelligent responses of Guild Wars 1. All of these things were lies from my perspective. Maybe not from yours, because you like simplified, dumbed down experiences, but from mine they are lies. Because I don't want that. I don't want difficulty from a mob that can one shot a smaller health pool, I want it from mobs that know how to work with each other, and how to use buffs, debuffs, heals, resurrects, and positioning smartly.

No GW2 foe that I've seen knows how to use any of those things.

This is why there's so many static players in GW2 videos. Because you just stand there. You swing a sword, you swing a sword again, that's great, but I want more than that from my MMORPGs. I was promised more. And the person who you're not at all successfully arguing with is explaining to you why this is a problem, and you're just being an overzealous fanboy nad trying to undermine everyone who has a valid point to make. Just because you can't stand the idea that we might actually be right.

Again, I bring up the flamethrower. Here's what it could do: It could apply an 'I AM ON FIRE!!!' debuff. This debuff will make the foe rapidly run around, as though feared, whilst flailing, occasionally falling to the ground to try and put it out. The more you focus on a foe and the weaker the foe is in general means the effect will apply more often. By spewing the flamethrower around in a wide area, you might apply it to a lot of weak foes after a little while. This kind of crowd control would be fun.

In Guild Wars 1 you'd have mobs react intelligently to this by casting heals on the guys who're on fire, and having other mobs move in to body block you so that you can't take advantage of them being locked down. They might even try similar things on you to lock you down. They might even try to cast a water spell to put it out, and you'd have to interrupt this to keep them on fire. All of this requires observation and intelligent response.

But Guild Wars 2 doesn't really have crowd control in this sense, it doesn't require intelligence, it's just damage vs damage. Every encounter is damage vs damage. Look up that Shatterer video on Youtube, like I suggested, and you'll understand. It's just a very, very dumbed down game. It's great for people who like MMS, and I suppose it's also great for WoW fans, as WoW didn't have much in the way of tactics either (outside of perhaps certain raids, but addons took even that away), but for me? For this, here player?

It's just not enough.

I'm not wrong. You're not wrong. You like MMS-style, simplified experiences with dumb mobs. You like games where you don't have to do anything intelligent, you just attack the mobs and they attack you. What I want... What I want... is a game that requires intelliigence on my part. GW1 is such a game, Champions Online is such a game, right now, Guild Wars 2 is simply not such a game.

Now ArenaNet has two choices: If they think the dumbed down approach works, they can keep it dumbed down. They can keep the damage vs damage zergs. Or if they want people like me on board, they can add challenge via actual tactics. It just depends on how successful the game will be. But considering how empty I've seen the game looking, lately? Even on the events like Halloween? I'm thinking that I'm right.

I hope it gets better, but right now? I can't care much. I want to see this game become amazing, but fans who want just this dumbed down thing are beating that out of me.

I wish I could like this more than once.
Apparently some people enjoy 111111 spamming.

Will they add new skills. Obviously.
Will that change the battle system? No. It's already too late. Arena Net won't admit their mistakes.

Edited by Perm Shadow Form, 12 November 2012 - 03:57 PM.

[Knuckledust13]

DuskWolf, on 11 November 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

@XPhiler

You say my points are 'false,' and yet you're having trouble dealing with myself and other people who're logically pointing out the issues with the game. I won't deal with mad tirades and rabid fanboyism, instead, I'll continue to reiterate what the problem is, as it continues to be a problem for me. (As someone who isn't blinded by cognitive dissonance.)

As others have detailed: The issue is that the game is dumbed down to the point where it becomes a zerg. This is what I've been saying from the start, this is what most of the complaints say, and this is what that thread on the official forums highlight as the primary problem.

As I said, mobs don't work together, they don't res each other, they don't use the environment, and they just make a bee-line for the player. Pick any Shatterer video and watch the mobs, you can see them just running like kamikaze HP distraction bombs at the player. There's no strategy involved in taking them down, it's just trading blows with them until they fall over. Seriously, just search 'guild wars 2 shatterer' on Youtube and take your pick, then watch.

As has also been pointed out, in GW1, you had foes that could slow you 90%, cripple, blind, fear, and do other terrible things to you, whilst healing and resurrecting their own. In GW1 you had melee foes body blocking you intelligently to stop you from getting at ranged casters, but you don't have body blocking in GW2, so it's easy to just run up to the caster who's already zerged into close range for you, anyway.

As for the players? Look at who's arguing with you and what they're saying about support abilities. There aren't nearly enough tactics involved, it's just damage versus damage. This is what every complaint against the game has said: It's a damage versus damage zerg. There's no intellect required, you just faceroll 1-5 to victory. This is what I've said, this is what others in this thread have said, and this is what people on the official forums are saying.

This is versus Guild Wars 1, where you needed spatial awareness, you needed to understand movement and tactical placement of yourself and your party, you needed to be able to deal with teh mobs working together, you had to work tactically because the mobs were very good at manipulating and herding players. In Guild Wars 1, you'll see a lot of mobility in the players, in GW2, you'll see everyone standing very still until a red circle appears.

It's just a very, very dumbed down experience. Which is fine if you like that! Some people really like dumbed down experiences. Look at Modern Warfare and Medal of Honour, they almost play themselves. Some people really dig that! There's just a lot of handholding, you zerg through one mission to the next, and that's what they like. For them, that's a 10/10 game. But it isn't for me, and you need to understand that.

I want: Intelligent mobs, and abilities which allow and even require the player to respond intelligently.

For me, comparing Guild Wars 1 to Guild Wars 2 is like comparing... oh, I don't know, Dragon Age: Origins to Mass Effect 3. The mechanics have been oversimplified. The AI does nothing but run at you swinging a sword, this is what we were promised it wouldn't be. Every event involves AI running at you with a sword in cut & past scenarios. The game feels unfun because of how incredibly repetitive it is. And you can't do anything other than zerg back.

They promised us that the game would be more fun than that, that it would have more variety, that it would require the intelligent responses of Guild Wars 1. All of these things were lies from my perspective. Maybe not from yours, because you like simplified, dumbed down experiences, but from mine they are lies. Because I don't want that. I don't want difficulty from a mob that can one shot a smaller health pool, I want it from mobs that know how to work with each other, and how to use buffs, debuffs, heals, resurrects, and positioning smartly.

No GW2 foe that I've seen knows how to use any of those things.

This is why there's so many static players in GW2 videos. Because you just stand there. You swing a sword, you swing a sword again, that's great, but I want more than that from my MMORPGs. I was promised more. And the person who you're not at all successfully arguing with is explaining to you why this is a problem, and you're just being an overzealous fanboy nad trying to undermine everyone who has a valid point to make. Just because you can't stand the idea that we might actually be right.

Again, I bring up the flamethrower. Here's what it could do: It could apply an 'I AM ON FIRE!!!' debuff. This debuff will make the foe rapidly run around, as though feared, whilst flailing, occasionally falling to the ground to try and put it out. The more you focus on a foe and the weaker the foe is in general means the effect will apply more often. By spewing the flamethrower around in a wide area, you might apply it to a lot of weak foes after a little while. This kind of crowd control would be fun.

In Guild Wars 1 you'd have mobs react intelligently to this by casting heals on the guys who're on fire, and having other mobs move in to body block you so that you can't take advantage of them being locked down. They might even try similar things on you to lock you down. They might even try to cast a water spell to put it out, and you'd have to interrupt this to keep them on fire. All of this requires observation and intelligent response.

But Guild Wars 2 doesn't really have crowd control in this sense, it doesn't require intelligence, it's just damage vs damage. Every encounter is damage vs damage. Look up that Shatterer video on Youtube, like I suggested, and you'll understand. It's just a very, very dumbed down game. It's great for people who like MMS, and I suppose it's also great for WoW fans, as WoW didn't have much in the way of tactics either (outside of perhaps certain raids, but addons took even that away), but for me? For this, here player?

It's just not enough.

I'm not wrong. You're not wrong. You like MMS-style, simplified experiences with dumb mobs. You like games where you don't have to do anything intelligent, you just attack the mobs and they attack you. What I want... What I want... is a game that requires intelliigence on my part. GW1 is such a game, Champions Online is such a game, right now, Guild Wars 2 is simply not such a game.

Now ArenaNet has two choices: If they think the dumbed down approach works, they can keep it dumbed down. They can keep the damage vs damage zergs. Or if they want people like me on board, they can add challenge via actual tactics. It just depends on how successful the game will be. But considering how empty I've seen the game looking, lately? Even on the events like Halloween? I'm thinking that I'm right.

I hope it gets better, but right now? I can't care much. I want to see this game become amazing, but fans who want just this dumbed down thing are beating that out of me.

QFT, this basically sums up the whole terrible experience GW2 is and why I am so disappointed with the game, and mainly with the developers and their broken promises.

[Silent The Legend]

Ehy guys, good news! With the following update Anet will introduce gear treadmill. Enjoy!

If it ever becomes true, my rating drops to 4 and I'll leave this game immediatly.

[blindude]

Silent The Legend, on 12 November 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

Ehy guys, good news! With the following update Anet will introduce gear treadmill. Enjoy!

If it ever becomes true, my rating drops to 4 and I'll leave this game immediatly.

it would be quite interesting to see how this poll changes..

Knuckledust13, on 12 November 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

QFT, this basically sums up the whole terrible experience GW2 is and why I am so disappointed with the game, and mainly with the developers and their broken promises.

lol hes talking about a flamethrower that makes mobs go crazy and drop on the ground screaming from pain ..:S
is that you agree with?Anyway what you (and he asks) would perfectly work on an instanced game where every mission is faced by you or your party and no one can interfere with the battle.Believe me but it wont work on regular pve in an open world scenario.
(And when i say believe me i hope that i wont have to make a long post explaining why )

Btw i also drop my vote to 4 if they new patch brings a new tier for gear

Edited by blindude, 12 November 2012 - 07:33 PM.

[Solid_Gold]

I can't drop my score much I only scored it a 2

[Ritualist]

Protoss, on 04 November 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

As I said before, I still think that the game is fairly average so I'd give it a 7.

I've actually been looking at this thread, reading people's opinions and I am beginning to wonder if me giving GW2 a 7 is actually something I feel comfortable with. When the game came out, I was absolutely willing to call it one of the year's best game (despite me not liking it), but the more I played it the more cracks I noticed.
I then decided I am fine with a 7, but right now I am wondering again if that's just because of my insane fanboy-ism for the GW games or if it's actually because of the game itself.
I am starting to lean towards a lower grade (I still stand by my initial view that I don't think the game is deserving much lower than a 5 though), but I guess this something I'll need to rethink a bit more extensively.
(First-world problems. )

[Segraine]

XPhiler, on 11 November 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

...

Of course this is just my view, not saying you're wrong in any way, rather only that I view this whole role thing a bit differently then you
and yes I totally agree that they didnt fact change all roles from a micro role to a macro role and shifted the strategy from having to focus on a single target to having to focus on a lot of things at once, totally in agreement there!

Yeah, there isn't really a wrong or a right way to view this. Everyone has different tastes in video game strategy and tactics. Although I found a support focus like my main character runs can solo most Champions without too many problems. Healing is actually very, very powerful if you spec into it. It just takes ages to kill a champion solo .

I think GW2 is just lacking a solid cooperation. Sure, you can play along side people and do combos by happenstance, but many, like me, prefer a more direct-controlled way of doing things. I'd love for the game to have Chrono Trigger-esque combos for parties. Who wouldn't want to smash a creature and freeze them with 2 warriors (or ranger/Guardians) and a water ele striking at once? Or even casting a magical maelstrom of elements?




A good micro-tactician always keeps the entire field in mind. Sometimes a sledgehammer is needed, sometimes a scalpel. However, we rather lack the scalpel as the game stands now.

If Arenanet would add better cooperation, improve their combo system, and allow us to support like a scalpel, the game could easily move up in my ratings. However, it can just as easily move down if they continue on the course of damage, damage, damage.