47 replies to this topic

[Piippo]

I've noticed that in many different locations in Kryta, it's common practice to put a cross on people's graves. The use being indentical to what we have in Christian countries in our world. There's even a large-ish mausoleum in the Divinity's Reach graveyard with a cross on top.

Isn't this kinda lore-breaking? The cross is a Christian symbol, and really doesn't have any place in Tyria. I don't remember ever seeing any crosses being used in any context in Tyria, until now . Is it just a big oversight by the developers who didn't think it through, or is there a lore explanation to why there suddenly is Earth-religion symbols being used in Tyria?

[Wordsworth]

No more lore-breaking than the use of ankh's.

[Lysand]

except ankhs were given to the monks with the general meaning of the symbol kept intact (life, healing, if you look at the old skill icons they mostly turn up in Healing Prayers skills) since gw1, and have since been passed off to the guardian.

crosses, symbolic of the christian faith and the sacrifice of jesus christ? nowhere near as relevant to tyria (as far as we presently know).

Edited by Lysand, 04 November 2012 - 03:15 PM.

[Tinkerer]

Here is a thread created a while ago which answers your question.

http://www.guildwars...ifixes-in-lore/

The basic answer is:

Quote

Swords being stylized makes the most sense - if I'm remembering correctly, in many ancient cultures, warriors would be buried with their weapon marking their grave in place or in addition to a cairn. In the case of swords, the tip of the blade would be shoved into the ground, making a cross effectively - this happened before Christianity even existed.

With how much conflict there is in Tyria, one can easily see that as the source of these grave markings.

There are also celtic crosses on some graves in Shaemoor's graveyard, iirc, as part of the actual tombstone.

EDIT: The credit of this answer goes to Konig Des Todes, I just can't seem to get the quote to show this though.

Edited by Tinkerer, 04 November 2012 - 07:23 PM.

[Flaming_Foxx]

^^^ This.

Also, you guys are kind of wrong about the Ankh... It's Egyptian... Yes its character translates as "life", but it was used heavily in depictions of the Egyptian gods. It therefore has JUST as much real world significance as the cross does.

Also, you have to keep in mind that whilst potentially christian in origin, the cross, like the Ankh, has gone beyond religious symbolism, simply becoming a marker of death etc. If you go to a graveyard and then count the amount of crosses... A lot of those people probably weren't religious..
(BTW, mods, this is not a post on religion. Since it is centring around symbolic objects present within the game. - just in case )

[Valkaire]

From what I remember of a very brief history lesson, some of the ancient celtic cultures used a cross with a little leaf shape as a symbol for the Tree of Life. Another thing that could explain it could be the obelus or dagger (used to cross out mistakes in writings) in punctuation... That looks pretty cross-like and was around since a few hundred years BC? Idk... Konig's point makes more sense but just wanted to come out saying that crosses aren't only a symbol of christianity ^.^;;

Edited by Valkaire, 04 November 2012 - 07:51 PM.

[Wordsworth]

Lysand, on 04 November 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

except ankhs were given to the monks with the general meaning of the symbol kept intact (life, healing, if you look at the old skill icons they mostly turn up in Healing Prayers skills) since gw1, and have since been passed off to the guardian.

crosses, symbolic of the christian faith and the sacrifice of jesus christ? nowhere near as relevant to tyria (as far as we presently know).

Except nothing. The symbol and meaning of both the ankh and the cross come from real world origins, and then transplanted into a fictional setting. One is no more lore-breaking than the other.

Edited by Wordsworth, 05 November 2012 - 01:38 AM.

[Valkaire]

Wordsworth, on 05 November 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

Except nothing. The symbol and meaning of both the ankh and the cross come from real world origins, and then transplanted into a fictional setting. One is no more lore-breaking than the other.

I think their main issue with it was that they think of crosses as started and being purely a symbol of Christianity whereas ankhs aren't really devoted to being the symbol of "only one religion" atm.

Which is kind of funny in itself considering the similarities between the two shapes. The ankh even being called a "crux ansata".

[Tregarde]

I really wouldn't read too much into it. Symbols often have different meanings in different cultures. The meaning can even change over time.

[Dasryn]

why are you guys getting so bent out of shape over a symbol?

if you want to get real technical here, a Christian's true symbol is his Faith.  not some cross indoctrinated by the catholic church.

anyway, i think the graveyard in shaemoor is a "endgame credits" of some sort paying homage to the developers.

some of those developers may be Christian.

[Chava Blue]

Rickter, on 05 November 2012 - 10:57 PM, said:

why are you guys getting so bent out of shape over a symbol?

if you want to get real technical here, a Christian's true symbol is his Faith.  not some cross indoctrinated by the catholic church.

anyway, i think the graveyard in shaemoor is a "endgame credits" of some sort paying homage to the developers.

some of those developers may be Christian.

I don't think anyone is getting bent out of shape. The issue is that it's a bit incongruous to see a symbol strongly associated with a real world religion (even if it's our own actual religion) in a game where that religion doesn't exist and there is an established objectively existing pantheon.

The cross is a simple enough symbol - basically just two lines - that it could arise and has arisen spontaneously in other contexts. It's probably nothing more than an aesthetic choice. It's just that there's a strong association, and the use of it for grave markers seems similar.

[Soki]

I'm just thankful it's a cross and not Islam prayer scriptures.
I dislike how some things in GW2 were designed, but that doesn't mean I want to see ANet get blown sky-high

[Graka]

Piippo, on 04 November 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

I've noticed that in many different locations in Kryta, it's common practice to put a cross on people's graves. The use being indentical to what we have in Christian countries in our world. There's even a large-ish mausoleum in the Divinity's Reach graveyard with a cross on top.

Isn't this kinda lore-breaking? The cross is a Christian symbol, and really doesn't have any place in Tyria. I don't remember ever seeing any crosses being used in any context in Tyria, until now . Is it just a big oversight by the developers who didn't think it through, or is there a lore explanation to why there suddenly is Earth-religion symbols being used in Tyria?

We know the Human God's brought humanity from somewhere else through the Mists to Tyria, who's to say they didn't bring them from Earth, and the 'God's' are not just some more advanced form of humanity, say along the same lines as the Ancients from Stargate. Frankly people seem to go out of their way to be offended or upset about things like this, instead of just looking for a lore reason or shrugging at artstic license. I'm a major lore person and theres tons of explinations for it, old cultures use to put the sword of the person that died as their gravemarker, in Tyria they may have done this practice and over thousands of years it morphed into drawing the symbol on a stone marker instead of the use of an actual sword.

Edit: Clarification.

Edited by Graka, 06 November 2012 - 01:27 AM.

[Chava Blue]

Graka, on 06 November 2012 - 01:21 AM, said:

Frankly people seem to go out of their way to be offended or upset about things like this, instead of just looking for a lore reason or shrugging at artstic license. I'm a major lore person and theres tons of explinations for it, old cultures use to put the sword of the person that died as their gravemarker, in Tyria they may have done this practice and over thousands of years it morphed into drawing the symbol on a stone marker instead of the actual sword.

I'm not reading any of the posts in this thread as offended at all.

I think the point is more that it's a strange aesthetic choice, because for many people the symbol has a strong real world association.

Yeah, you can make it fit the lore by explaining it in one of a number of ways... but since none of us actually grew up in the world of Tyria, at first glance the symbol is not a culturally neutral one.

Please don't assume that artistic criticism must always be some form of personal offense.

[Graka]

Chava Blue, on 06 November 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:

I'm not reading any of the posts in this thread as offended at all.

I think the point is more that it's a strange aesthetic choice, because for many people the symbol has a strong real world association.

Yeah, you can make it fit the lore by explaining it in one of a number of ways... but since none of us actually grew up in the world of Tyria, at first glance the symbol is not a culturally neutral one.

Please don't assume that artistic criticism must always be some form of personal offense.

The fact that its artistic criticsm at all is the problem, Why, like please honestly why? If some Norn temple is all about worship the spirit of the Bald Eagle am I going to hear about how well in the real world its related to the US so they should have choose something else. Its just ridiculous, and criticism for criticism sake, not for any actual valid reason.

[ShezuTsukai]

Whether it was intended to be Christian crosses or the more ancient sword symbol typical to warrior graves as far back as ancient Sumaria; the fact that the cross is causing discussion and not the ankh or the (islamic) crescent moon represented in some skills or the (satanic church's) pentagram should lead you to analyze your own motivations for this thread.


It is difficult to disassociate the persecution Christians receive irl with someone taking offense to a Christian symbol in a game.




With that being said, the original symbol of Christians as far back as the 1st century was the simple fish. I wonder if that symbol has made it into GW2?

[Valkaire]

ShezuTsukai, on 06 November 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:

Whether it was intended to be Christian crosses or the more ancient sword symbol typical to warrior graves as far back as ancient Sumaria; the fact that the cross is causing discussion and not the ankh or the (islamic) crescent moon represented in some skills or the (satanic church's) pentagram should lead you to analyze your own motivations for this thread.


It is difficult to disassociate the persecution Christians receive irl with someone taking offense to a Christian symbol in a game.




With that being said, the original symbol of Christians as far back as the 1st century was the simple fish. I wonder if that symbol has made it into GW2?

Please don't say the pentagram is a symbol of satanism, because that really isn't so. It's been a symbol of protection and harmony for thousands of years before that certain offshoot of christianity adapted it to suit their beliefs. Much like how the swastika was a symbol of enlightenment in Buddhism and Hinduism before the Nazi party adapted it and turned it into a symbol of hatred and synonymous with religious persecution.

I don't see how this discussion can go any further without being turned into a purely religious based discussion (which I believe isn't allowed). So I'm just going to throw this in as my last point: Basic shapes and symbols have been around for thousands of years and represented many, many different things before religions picked them up. Crosses were some of the first shapes that cavemen drew, they were also used to represent the tree of life in ancient Celtic/ Britanic cultures. The moon has been a symbol of many different gods and goddesses throughout the ages, purity, death, etc.

It's unrealistic to expect a game to develop entirely new symbols for certain elements in their game, and if they did such there would probably be an outcry of "what's this random symbol, wtf does it mean? Why can't you just use X symbol instead." Yes, immersion is good but simple shapes and designs that have been in use in our world for thousands of years are hard to break away from, especially when those ancient symbols and beliefs have influenced our fantasy culture and many fantasy worlds throughout the years.

If you were truly focused in the immersion of this world you would stop thinking of "X symbol means Y in our world, why is it here." That's you breaking the immersion yourself.

[Mockingjay74]

Graka, on 06 November 2012 - 01:21 AM, said:

We know the Human God's brought humanity from somewhere else through the Mists to Tyria, who's to say they didn't bring them from Earth, and the 'God's' are not just some more advanced form of humanity, say along the same lines as the Ancients from Stargate. Frankly people seem to go out of their way to be offended or upset about things like this, instead of just looking for a lore reason or shrugging at artstic license. I'm a major lore person and theres tons of explinations for it, old cultures use to put the sword of the person that died as their gravemarker, in Tyria they may have done this practice and over thousands of years it morphed into drawing the symbol on a stone marker instead of the use of an actual sword.

Edit: Clarification.

I kind of like where you're headed. As far as I know, humans came from the Mists. Your suggestion that maybe the Mists were similar to something in Thor (big rainbow bridge?) makes me wonder. A while ago the point was made that there aren't any lions in Tyria (that we've seen), so where did Lion's Arch come from (insert: pirates travel). Maybe some of these questions can be answered by simply questioning exactly where humans came from.

Also I think that defining the gods like that could potentially be inaccurate, as there are conspiracy theories out there that claim the gods may just be super powerful wizards, etc. Although if those were true (which I doubt but I can be the devil's advocate for some of them), it wouldn't answer any of the things brought up in this thread so far.

Pardon any typos, forum creeping on my iPhone really isn't as awesome as I expected.

[Valkaire]

Mockingjay74, on 06 November 2012 - 04:52 AM, said:

I kind of like where you're headed. As far as I know, humans came from the Mists. Your suggestion that maybe the Mists were similar to something in Thor (big rainbow bridge?) makes me wonder. A while ago the point was made that there aren't any lions in Tyria (that we've seen), so where did Lion's Arch come from (insert: pirates travel). Maybe some of these questions can be answered by simply questioning exactly where humans came from.

Also I think that defining the gods like that could potentially be inaccurate, as there are conspiracy theories out there that claim the gods may just be super powerful wizards, etc. Although if those were true (which I doubt but I can be the devil's advocate for some of them), it wouldn't answer any of the things brought up in this thread so far.

Pardon any typos, forum creeping on my iPhone really isn't as awesome as I expected.

Lions and Lionesses are found in Elona, most notably, Vabbi. Kryta started as an Elonian colony. I'm just as curious about where humans came from. https://www.youtube....h?v=ARZWX51hYYk That video says humans came from a different world, as in an entirely new planet. Try as I might I haven't really found anything to back that up buuuut, it is an interesting alternative

[Princess Fatora]

Crosses are one of the most basic shapes that we have. This is why christianity took it astheir symbol.
Which, by the way, happened hundreds of years AFTER the religion was founded: Early christians condemned the symbol as pagan.

Yep. The "christian cross" is actually a pagan symbol.
Pagans worshipped martyrs that were crucified as well, long before christianity. Later christians even justified taking the symbol by saying that satan stole the symbol centuries before in anticipation of christianity XD


As said. It's not a christian symbol, it's simply a symbol that will crop up in many a religion, just due to how basic it is. It's essentially a human standing up with arms stretched to the side. Hence it doesn't break the lore at all.

[Graka]

Mockingjay74, on 06 November 2012 - 04:52 AM, said:

I kind of like where you're headed. As far as I know, humans came from the Mists. Your suggestion that maybe the Mists were similar to something in Thor (big rainbow bridge?) makes me wonder. A while ago the point was made that there aren't any lions in Tyria (that we've seen), so where did Lion's Arch come from (insert: pirates travel). Maybe some of these questions can be answered by simply questioning exactly where humans came from.

Also I think that defining the gods like that could potentially be inaccurate, as there are conspiracy theories out there that claim the gods may just be super powerful wizards, etc. Although if those were true (which I doubt but I can be the devil's advocate for some of them), it wouldn't answer any of the things brought up in this thread so far.

Pardon any typos, forum creeping on my iPhone really isn't as awesome as I expected.

Valkaire, on 06 November 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

Lions and Lionesses are found in Elona, most notably, Vabbi. Kryta started as an Elonian colony. I'm just as curious about where humans came from. https://www.youtube....h?v=ARZWX51hYYk That video says humans came from a different world, as in an entirely new planet. Try as I might I haven't really found anything to back that up buuuut, it is an interesting alternative

The lions thing Valk is right about, but with the God's I just see them as something far beyond our comprehension, as close as I personally believe to the possibility that they are like the Ancients. To me it expains some things such as in Orr you discover that the God's decided that their people should know them so they had Malcor make statues of them all... the question becomes why?

If the God's had been around humanity for along time in whatever previous world they came from you think they would know something of what they look like, so it seems that its a more recent relationship, you also have the ridiculous scope that the Orrians built with. In the Arah storymode when Caith talks about Orr you see the size of some of the things they built, like circular arches that span an entire continent?

To me it explains some things, but if you want a really good question, why do Norns look like big humans? It's like Tyria's version of Humanity, but again why, are they related, is there some further backstory that we dont know about. But sorry if i'm rambling on, I love the lore of stories where you can get involved and try to figure it out. I think that sometimes people just want there to be more to something than there is so they can go WTF. Sometimes a cigar, is just a cigar.

[Red J]

Valkaire, on 06 November 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

Lions and Lionesses are found in Elona, most notably, Vabbi. Kryta started as an Elonian colony. I'm just as curious about where humans came from. https://www.youtube....h?v=ARZWX51hYYk That video says humans came from a different world, as in an entirely new planet. Try as I might I haven't really found anything to back that up buuuut, it is an interesting alternative

Nothing directly says they came form different world. From what we know, the six gods (namely, Dwayna) have opened up a portal (or "the gates", as stated in orrian history scrolls), leading first humans to Tyria. We don't know from where they came, only that the six themselves came from the mists.

Interestingly, however, the orrian history scrolls mention that Lyssa was helping humans "forget the past". What does that mean? Who knows. (http://cloud.steampo...66CDF06F8C9B0E/)

Mind you, there is a lot of conflicting lore surrounding humans in GW2. For example, we were told by Jeff Grubb that humans first appeared in Tyria somewhere south of Cantha, then migrated north to Orr and Elona (the Empire of the Dragon was the first human nation in Tyria). However, the above mentioned scrolls say that humans were brought by gods to Orr directly.

As for me, I'd say the orrian scrolls were simply misinterpreted (evidenced by the incorrect name of Lyss' twin sister) by the NPC who translated them.

Graka, on 06 November 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

The lions thing Valk is right about, but with the God's I just see them as something far beyond our comprehension, as close as I personally believe to the possibility that they are like the Ancients. To me it expains some things such as in Orr you discover that the God's decided that their people should know them so they had Malcor make statues of them all... the question becomes why?

If the God's had been around humanity for along time in whatever previous world they came from you think they would know something of what they look like, so it seems that its a more recent relationship, you also have the ridiculous scope that the Orrians built with. In the Arah storymode when Caith talks about Orr you see the size of some of the things they built, like circular arches that span an entire continent?

The Six kept themselves away from humans (or were hidden among them) because they (humans) couldn't stand to look at them without going blind. That is the reason why gods summoned Malchor to make statues of them, and why Malchor was completely blind by the time he finished the statue of dwayna.

Also, Orr is just a peninsula of Elonian continent.

Graka, on 06 November 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

To me it explains some things, but if you want a really good question, why do Norns look like big humans? It's like Tyria's version of Humanity, but again why, are they related, is there some further backstory that we dont know about. But sorry if i'm rambling on, I love the lore of stories where you can get involved and try to figure it out. I think that sometimes people just want there to be more to something than there is so they can go WTF. Sometimes a cigar, is just a cigar.

We don't know much about history of norn. Just that they could be related to jotun. If you believe Thruln the Lost in Hoelbrak, the norns were, like jotun, much more advanced during the Age of Giants. When they lost the access to the powerful magic, both races' cultures began to decline. However, the norn turned to the spirits of the wild and remained more or less civilised. As opposed to jotun, who degenerated into their present form.

Edited by Red J, 06 November 2012 - 07:11 AM.

[Dasryn]

Valkaire, on 06 November 2012 - 02:11 AM, said:

Please don't say the pentagram is a symbol of satanism, because that really isn't so. It's been a symbol of protection and harmony for thousands of years before that certain offshoot of christianity adapted it to suit their beliefs. Much like how the swastika was a symbol of enlightenment in Buddhism and Hinduism before the Nazi party adapted it and turned it into a symbol of hatred and synonymous with religious persecution.

I don't see how this discussion can go any further without being turned into a purely religious based discussion (which I believe isn't allowed). So I'm just going to throw this in as my last point: Basic shapes and symbols have been around for thousands of years and represented many, many different things before religions picked them up. Crosses were some of the first shapes that cavemen drew, they were also used to represent the tree of life in ancient Celtic/ Britanic cultures. The moon has been a symbol of many different gods and goddesses throughout the ages, purity, death, etc.

It's unrealistic to expect a game to develop entirely new symbols for certain elements in their game, and if they did such there would probably be an outcry of "what's this random symbol, wtf does it mean? Why can't you just use X symbol instead." Yes, immersion is good but simple shapes and designs that have been in use in our world for thousands of years are hard to break away from, especially when those ancient symbols and beliefs have influenced our fantasy culture and many fantasy worlds throughout the years.

If you were truly focused in the immersion of this world you would stop thinking of "X symbol means Y in our world, why is it here." That's you breaking the immersion yourself.

regardless the previous post has a point, there are other religious symbols in the game that are used by religions other than christianity that are not being discussed as much as the cross.

makes you wonder.

im actually surprised this thread is still open.  i mean, religious discussion is NOT permitted, like, ever.

*taylor swift voice* "WeeEeee are never ever ever, supposedtotalkaboutreligion, like ever!"

[draxynnic]

Most of those symbols, at least by the typical observer, aren't so commonly associated with the religions in question. Most people seeing a crescent moon are going to associate it with the moon rather than Islam unless there's some context suggesting the latter - and most occurrences of the crescent moon symbol I can think of in GW2 are clearly relating to the moon. Pentagrams have become a ubiquitous symbol for ritual magic, whether protective (one point up) or malicious (two points up).

Crosses are a little different because most people seeing a cross tend to think of Christianity, and because the circumstances that gave the cross the meaning it has were fairly specific. Thus, speculation over whether the use of crosses as grave markers in Tyria is something that has meaning (simplified ankh, stylised representation of a sword for a warrior's grave as someone theorised above) or whether it's just that the designers put in something familiar without considering whether Tyrians would actually use that symbol.

On the 'religious discussion' side of things - I'm aware this topic is dancing on the line, but I regard it as having more to do with the symbols than the religions themselves. i would ask that people refrain from saying anything that members of any extant religion may find confrontational, however.

[Lordkrall]

draxynnic, on 06 November 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

On the 'religious discussion' side of things - I'm aware this topic is dancing on the line, but I regard it as having more to do with the symbols than the religions themselves. i would ask that people refrain from saying anything that members of any extant religion may find confrontational, however.

How is this a more okay discussion than the Holiday discussion that got removed a few days ago? Back then a few of use simply stated that ArenaNet did not want to favor a specific religion when it comes to in-game holidays.


As for the topic at hand crosses are not originally christian, so they would work even in a world without christianity

Edited by Lordkrall, 06 November 2012 - 11:58 AM.

[Tevesh]

Quote

I think their main issue with it was that they think of crosses as started and being purely a symbol of Christianity whereas ankhs aren't really devoted to being the symbol of "only one religion" atm.

And swastika is a pagan symbol of the Sun common for many pagan religions. Why not include it too? It's not even religious nowadays!

[Serris]

it's a world with thousands of mysteries, things that would be more interesting.
-do rock dogs have anything to do with the brand, as there are more elemental looking species (ancient warbeasts)
-are colocals and griffons related?
-if humans are from a different planet, why do norn look so similar?

but no, what we absolutely have to know is why there's crosses on graves.
the reason is probably because the artist looked at reference pictures of coollooking graveyards, and there were crosses all over that place. mystery solved.

[Killyox]

Piippo, on 04 November 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

I've noticed that in many different locations in Kryta, it's common practice to put a cross on people's graves. The use being indentical to what we have in Christian countries in our world. There's even a large-ish mausoleum in the Divinity's Reach graveyard with a cross on top.

Isn't this kinda lore-breaking? The cross is a Christian symbol, and really doesn't have any place in Tyria. I don't remember ever seeing any crosses being used in any context in Tyria, until now . Is it just a big oversight by the developers who didn't think it through, or is there a lore explanation to why there suddenly is Earth-religion symbols being used in Tyria?

Cross existed far before christianity. Case closed.

Besides cross is commonly recognized as place of rest of the dead so it's simply for convienience so people know what that place is. There are many cemeteries in GW2 without crosses.

Edited by Killyox, 06 November 2012 - 12:13 PM.

[Pipples]

Piippo, on 04 November 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

Isn't this kinda lore-breaking? The cross is a Christian symbol, and really doesn't have any place in Tyria. I don't remember ever seeing any crosses being used in any context in Tyria, until now . Is it just a big oversight by the developers who didn't think it through, or is there a lore explanation to why there suddenly is Earth-religion symbols being used in Tyria?

I suck at the lore bit, but weren't Humans transplanted from Earth?

[Aetou]

As others have pointed out, the cross as a symbol is much older than Christianity and certainly isn't limited to Christian explanations for its association with death.  Odin's Crosses (albeit arguably more associated with wheels than actual crosses) are one example that crop up in diverse human cultures.  Another reasonably simple association between the cross and death, to add to that of the sword, is the notion of a 'crossroad' - certainly something that existed long before Christianity.

Now, do I think it is a slightly strange aesthetic choice? Yep.  One assumes, however, that it was decided that crosses on graves is so iconic to most of the audience that it was decided to use them and then justify it anyway instead of making graveyards less immediately recognised.