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[video and guide] Sohpital 1 - Condition WvWvW


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#1 stefanplc

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 06:42 PM

Hi there,

Some of you might know me from my warrior Matale; I played him since BWE1 and released 7 PvP videos. After my last video I felt that it was about as good as it was ever going to get on my warrior and that a Mesmer or Thief would fit my solo play style much better and I ended up picking a thief. Bellow you can see my first montage as a condition thief dagger/dagger - short bow in WvWvW called Sohpital 1.



I'll try and explain a little bit my choices for gear, skills, traits and play style to try and answer any questions some people might have.

First I'll start with the play style. Basically what you're aiming for is to apply bleeds when you have initiative or on weapon swaps and then pretty much wait for your opponent to die while you stealth or kite him. The damage you do outside bleeds is bellow average so going head to head with someone would just result in a loosing battle.

Gear wise I picked full carrion stats which are condition damage, power and vitality. I didn't feel comfortable with a low HP so condition damage and vitality were my 2 main stats. I would have liked to switch power to precision and pick up Sigil of Earth (apply bleeds on critical) but I don't think a gear set with those stats exists.

For sigils I went with Geomancy (apply bleeds on weapon swap) for one of my daggers and short bow and Corruption (+10 condition damage on kill) for my other dagger. I would have liked to use other sigils instead of Corruption however all the other good ones such as Sigil of Doom (apply poison) shared CDs with Geomancy meaning they just didn't work.

As far as runes go, I went full runes of Undead. I don't care that much about condition duration because any decent player is going to have a couple of condition removals so I doubt my bleeds will tick for longer than 10 seconds. I found it more important to increase bleed damage.

Because I'm playing a condition thief and fights tend to take a little longer especially versus opponents with condition removal, I considered that it was really important to get both self healing traits Shadow's Rejuvenation and Assassin's Reward. This way I'm constantly healing while fighting and while hiding in stealth. You'll often see in the video situations where I barely survive a burst combo but then I'm able to quickly recover, bring my health back up and even win. Shadow's Embrace I found to be absolutely vital to my build as I'm often in stealth and my condition removal isn't exactly top notch. Infusion of Shadow is also one of my better traits because it practically makes my Cloak and Dagger cost nothing if I stay in stealth for the full duration and it makes Shadow Refuge act like a battery and charge up my initiative by 2 every time it pulsates. I've debated a little bit between Fleet Shadow, Vigorous Recovery and Power of Inertia but I ended up picking Fleet Shadow because it helped me stick to my target without using initiative and at the same time it was great for when I had to escape. Thrill Of The Crime was the only option I really liked for the first trait in Trickery as the swiftness you gain is great for catching your opponents and for escaping. Bountiful Theft is another great trait. There are many cases when this trait is useful however my favorite is after a warrior uses his elite skill, Signet of Rage

For my utility skills I just picked the ones that gave me stealth, Blinding Powder and Shadow Refuge and Shadowstep which is perfect for breaking stun or enemy burst combos and also to catch enemies that are running away. I usually use Blinding Powder and Shadow Refuge during burst moments as at that point I prefer to use all my initiative on doing damage instead of Cloak and Dagger. Shadow Refuge with Infusion of Shadow also replenishes a lot of my initiative as explained above so I can immediately come back and apply more pressure.

As far as strategies go, you can see them in my video. I generally like to open with my short bow and try and apply Choking Gas while dodging their opener. Many players like to start strong with their hardest hitting ability and while I apply my poison I watch out for those and do my best to dodge them. Meanwhile I try and get in melee range with them and swap to my daggers close enough so they get the 3 bleeds from my sigil. I try and Death Blossom usually once and then go in stealth, trying to force a condition removal ability. There's no point in dumping all of your initiative unless you know they have no way of removing your bleeds and poison so I found that starting slowly is a much better approach. Obviously, you can't really do that all the time since many situations require different tactics however that's my general rule. I am interested in playing this build with a pistol/dagger instead of my short bow as in theory I think it could be better, more bleed stacks so more damage.

The only thing I don't like about this build is that I can't seem to implement Heartseeker and Cluster Bombs into it. Heartseeker just barely does any damage (usually around 1-1.5k) and the only times I use it is if I need to catch someone or my target only has around 2-3k HP and I can use it a few times to finish them off. I would really like to see this ability become more viable and one suggestion I had was that maybe each Death Blossom could increase the amount of damage my next Heartseeker does by a certain percentage so that after 5 Death Blossoms or more it would be a good idea to use Heartseeker. Cluster Bombs is even worse. Choking Gas which lands much faster and has a bigger radius is pretty difficult to land versus a decent player. Cluster Bombs is close to impossible even vs the worst players because everyone knows to get out of red circles. I can't detonate them in melee range either because they land really fast. My only regret is that I wish I could use these two abilities more often for a more diverse and interesting combat system.

Thanks for watching and I hope you enjoyed the video!

#2 Matsumori

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 07:24 PM

I really like this build. it seems great for solo/small group roaming. my only suggestion would be why are you not using catrops? it is a huge AOE cripple + Bleed while they stay in it and can help stack up those bleeds really fast. It's cripple will also help keep them in melee range so you dont have to use gap closers as much.

Do you use this same spec when defending/attacking keeps? does it even do anything worthy for that aspect of wvw?

#3 stefanplc

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 07:28 PM

View PostMatsumori, on 06 November 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

I really like this build. it seems great for solo/small group roaming. my only suggestion would be why are you not using catrops? it is a huge AOE cripple + Bleed while they stay in it and can help stack up those bleeds really fast. It's cripple will also help keep them in melee range so you dont have to use gap closers as much.

Do you use this same spec when defending/attacking keeps? does it even do anything worthy for that aspect of wvw?

I haven't tried it for defending/attacking keeps but I imagine with the actual caltrops utility it could do pretty well. You could shadowstep into the group of enemies, drop caltrops, spam Deathblossom and then shadow retreat.

I didn't like the caltrops trait that much because the radius and duration is so small and often people are running in curve direction not straight at you. I might give it another try. As far as the caltrops utility skill, I'm just too fond of the 3 I'm currently using and I think most decent players would just run out of them.

#4 Matsumori

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 07:37 PM

View Poststefanplc, on 06 November 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

I haven't tried it for defending/attacking keeps but I imagine with the actual caltrops utility it could do pretty well. You could shadowstep into the group of enemies, drop caltrops, spam Deathblossom and then shadow retreat.

I didn't like the caltrops trait that much because the radius and duration is so small and often people are running in curve direction not straight at you. I might give it another try. As far as the caltrops utility skill, I'm just too fond of the 3 I'm currently using and I think most decent players would just run out of them.

Yea I dont like the caltrops trait...its a very weak version of the utility but the Utility version is awesome for a condition build IMO. Also even if they run out of them they are going to get a good 6+ stacks of bleed on them in the process plus whatever you put on them with deathblossom while they are trying to get out of the cripple.

These are just my thoughts on it though, definitely not a mandatory change or anything.

#5 stefanplc

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 07:42 PM

View PostMatsumori, on 06 November 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

Yea I dont like the caltrops trait...its a very weak version of the utility but the Utility version is awesome for a condition build IMO. Also even if they run out of them they are going to get a good 6+ stacks of bleed on them in the process plus whatever you put on them with deathblossom while they are trying to get out of the cripple.

These are just my thoughts on it though, definitely not a mandatory change or anything.

I really like the utility skill in PvE but as far as PvP goes, I feel like I really need the survivability the 3 abilities I'm using give me. If you check out my build overall it's focused on staying alive. Even with all the defensive stuff I have, if I don't dodge or shadow step at the right time half of my HP is gone in a couple of seconds and there are a few examples in the video showing that.

#6 The Shadow

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 08:31 PM

I don't think Carrion was the best decision for this build. Your montage demonstrates exactly why; Your health very rarely went below 50% and when it did you always had access to either Heal or Stealth. Power is essentially a useless stat here since your damage will come from Condition damage (as you noted). Your build is based around regeneration via Shadow Arts ergo if you lower the damage you take (via toughness) the easier it should be to regenerate regardless of the size of your health pool?

This is all theory-crafting btw, as I don't play condition builds in WvW due to mass AoE condition removal.. but (and I could be wrong here), would you not be more effective using Prec/ Toughness/ Condition armor with Sigil of Earth (60% chance 5s bleed on crit) as opposed to Geomancy? Wouldn't runes of the Undead make this even more potent?

You'd still have plenty of vitality from Chryosola jewelry (where the majority of your stats come from), seeing as it's imposible to craft Prec/ Toughness/ Condition.

That all being said, I enjoyed the video. Certainly made me want to go Thief in WvW :P

Also, it seems we are in the same guild :D I didn't know that!

Edited by The Shadow, 06 November 2012 - 08:43 PM.


#7 stefanplc

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:04 PM

View PostThe Shadow, on 06 November 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

I don't think Carrion was the best decision for this build. Your montage demonstrates exactly why; Your health very rarely went below 50% and when it did you always had access to either Heal or Stealth. Power is essentially a useless stat here since your damage will come from Condition damage (as you noted). Your build is based around regeneration via Shadow Arts ergo if you lower the damage you take (via toughness) the easier it should be to regenerate regardless of the size of your health pool?

This is all theory-crafting btw, as I don't play condition builds in WvW due to mass AoE condition removal.. but (and I could be wrong here), would you not be more effective using Prec/ Toughness/ Condition armor with Sigil of Earth (60% chance 5s bleed on crit) as opposed to Geomancy? Wouldn't runes of the Undead make this even more potent?

You'd still have plenty of vitality from Chryosola jewelry (where the majority of your stats come from), seeing as it's imposible to craft Prec/ Toughness/ Condition.

That all being said, I enjoyed the video. Certainly made me want to go Thief in WvW :P

Also, it seems we are in the same guild :D I didn't know that!

It could work and I initially tried to balance the 2 however I couldn't get a high enough crit chance and I just really didn't feel that comfortable with low HP. I did a little research and everyone seemed to be rooting for vitality over toughness. You also have to keep in mind that in the video I had some pretty good dodges/escapes which if I missed it would have ended badly for me. There were several occasions in the video where I ran out of ways to escape and half of my HP disappeared in a matter of a couple of seconds. In the one duel vs the mesmer towards the end of the video I managed to avoid both his Blurred Frenzy which I'm pretty sure would have hit me over 10k HP together. I've also managed to avoid most bull charges, blade trails and so forth.

One thing to keep in mind also is that I'm not really able to tank people. I go down fast so I need to jump in, apply my bleeds and then I gotta get out. Playing a precision build where I would try and apply my bleeds with regular hits might just be a better choice for PvE rather than PvP. With Geomancy I apply my 3 bleeds right away as opposed to having to hang around for a few seconds.

It definitely is worth trying out though. This was my first video after switching to my thief and I started recording as soon as I finished gearing my character. I didn't have time to experiment with gear, I was just really eager to start PvPing. Power does scale somewhat well btw. I tried this build in the mists without + power and with + healing power instead and my regular hits got cut in half which isn't much but if you add up 200-300 damage here and there it probably adds up to a third of the damage I do.

Glad you enjoyed it! I'm not sure what profession you play but you might want to check out Matale 7 also, hammer warrior WvWvW with the same type of content, 1vX, many people enjoyed that one too. See you in game!

#8 The Shadow

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:26 PM

View Poststefanplc, on 06 November 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

It could work and I initially tried to balance the 2 however I couldn't get a high enough crit chance and I just really didn't feel that comfortable with low HP. I did a little research and everyone seemed to be rooting for vitality over toughness. You also have to keep in mind that in the video I had some pretty good dodges/escapes which if I missed it would have ended badly for me. There were several occasions in the video where I ran out of ways to escape and half of my HP disappeared in a matter of a couple of seconds. In the one duel vs the mesmer towards the end of the video I managed to avoid both his Blurred Frenzy which I'm pretty sure would have hit me over 10k HP together. I've also managed to avoid most bull charges, blade trails and so forth.

One thing to keep in mind also is that I'm not really able to tank people. I go down fast so I need to jump in, apply my bleeds and then I gotta get out. Playing a precision build where I would try and apply my bleeds with regular hits might just be a better choice for PvE rather than PvP. With Geomancy I apply my 3 bleeds right away as opposed to having to hang around for a few seconds.

It definitely is worth trying out though. This was my first video after switching to my thief and I started recording as soon as I finished gearing my character. I didn't have time to experiment with gear, I was just really eager to start PvPing. Power does scale somewhat well btw. I tried this build in the mists without + power and with + healing power instead and my regular hits got cut in half which isn't much but if you add up 200-300 damage here and there it probably adds up to a third of the damage I do.

Glad you enjoyed it! I'm not sure what profession you play but you might want to check out Matale 7 also, hammer warrior WvWvW with the same type of content, 1vX, many people enjoyed that one too. See you in game!


I actually found this video via Matale 7. Made a new warrior recently, fully intend to try your build in WvW. I main Thief though.

After I posted, I already realized the big issue with what I had said. Since there's no exotic Jewelry with those stats, it would be impossible to get a decent crit-chance, unless you were to sacrifice the +250 Condition Damage for +250 Precision, but then I doubt it would be worth it.

I use a very similar build as you in SPvP with the Rabid Amulet, Which... sadly can't be re-created in PvE or WvW, but it certainly works well in SPvP.

#9 stefanplc

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:30 PM

View PostThe Shadow, on 06 November 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

I actually found this video via Matale 7. Made a new warrior recently, fully intend to try your build in WvW. I main Thief though.

After I posted, I already realized the big issue with what I had said. Since there's no exotic Jewelry with those stats, it would be impossible to get a decent crit-chance, unless you were to sacrifice the +250 Condition Damage for +250 Precision, but then I doubt it would be worth it.

I use a very similar build as you in SPvP with the Rabid Amulet, Which... sadly can't be re-created in PvE or WvW, but it certainly works well in SPvP.

I tried something similar too in sPvP just to test it out and it worked great. ATM I'm trying to stay away from sPvP as much as possible because I know once I get into Tournaments I'll be spamming them a lot like I did Arena in WoW so I'm trying to delay that a little bit more :P

#10 Drtrider

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:30 PM

First off, great video.

I'm running a full Carrion condition thief as well. However as it stands right now I run with P/D and love it. Lots of stealth. I however stuck with leeching venoms and using all the venoms I can to both control ranges and stay a bit away from my targets. However this is a very viable way to do things and quite possibly something I may try since it seems to be the only other option when it comes to condition thieves.

Out of curiosity what server are you on? We could learn allot from each other if given the chance to play side by side.

#11 stefanplc

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 12:05 AM

View PostDrtrider, on 06 November 2012 - 11:30 PM, said:

First off, great video.

I'm running a full Carrion condition thief as well. However as it stands right now I run with P/D and love it. Lots of stealth. I however stuck with leeching venoms and using all the venoms I can to both control ranges and stay a bit away from my targets. However this is a very viable way to do things and quite possibly something I may try since it seems to be the only other option when it comes to condition thieves.

Out of curiosity what server are you on? We could learn allot from each other if given the chance to play side by side.

Desolation EU.. I'm also thinking about using pistol/dagger instead of shortbow to go even more offensive... but keeping everything else as it is right now.. simply weapon switching more often and especially when I'm out of initiative

#12 Webley

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 12:09 AM

5/0/30/30/5

Its working really really well for me

I use the same trinity system of ini regen, healthregen in stealth and use assassins reward for spending the init for more health (Then using the stealth to regen the init and health back to start all over again)

I did however opt for p/d and d/d and the +15% bleed duration runes for better results. People usually carry one condition removal so after stacking a few bleeds they get wiped by it then its on cool down and the duration just melts away after that phase. If you do your number crunching duration is more damage

If you want some really really insane fun, when you find a zerg, swap out roll for init for caltrops and get dagger storm. Plant the caltrops over the catapults sieging the keep and do a stealth/LDB/dagger storm/stealth rotation. Keep going until the caltrops are cooled down, rinse and repeat. Any siege operators will melt and empty siege will be left unused

Alternativley outside the keep doors where there are 3 rams being used, drop the caltrops, dagger storm, go back inside and rinse/repeat

When your back out roaming you can then swap out the caltrops/dagger storm to something more useful for random encounters.

I usually swap in the shotbow and swap out the pistol when zerging. Pistol is far greater than daggers however, and the number 3 skill gets you out of immobilise (As most melee users will want to imobbilise you then come up close to hit you so you can use 3 on them and escape. You also heal by using it from assassins reward)

pistol/dagger for roaming, daggers for zerging/dodging

The pistol skill number 1 applys bleeds and also counts as a dot a its constantly hitting with auto attack while you kite

Since youll be using less init when using pistol i swapped out roll for init for the movement signet for better kiting, but could also be swapped to caltrops

Edited by Webley, 07 November 2012 - 12:15 AM.


#13 Drtrider

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 12:26 AM

View Poststefanplc, on 07 November 2012 - 12:05 AM, said:

Desolation EU.. I'm also thinking about using pistol/dagger instead of shortbow to go even more offensive... but keeping everything else as it is right now.. simply weapon switching more often and especially when I'm out of initiative

Well I run P/D - Shortbow. I mainly just stick to P/D and swap for the short bow when needed. However starting with the shortbow like you did might not be such a bad idea. However I run a venom/leeching venom build right now. But I'v been trying to figure out ways to do it differently with the same weapon and gear set.

#14 owly

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 02:54 AM

To the OP:  What is your total condition damage in this build?

#15 stefanplc

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 10:42 AM

View Postowly, on 07 November 2012 - 02:54 AM, said:

To the OP:  What is your total condition damage in this build?

I think you probably asked me the same thing on youtube, I just wasn't next to my computer: 1435, but in some of the clips I had a lot of stacks of might so it was higher... I played around a little bit with the trait that gives you might on dodge + the might I get from going stealth

View PostDrtrider, on 07 November 2012 - 12:26 AM, said:

Well I run P/D - Shortbow. I mainly just stick to P/D and swap for the short bow when needed. However starting with the shortbow like you did might not be such a bad idea. However I run a venom/leeching venom build right now. But I'v been trying to figure out ways to do it differently with the same weapon and gear set.

Like I said, I'm planning on doing exactly the same thing I'm doing right now, but instead of a shrotbow use a pistol/dagger for openers and then weapon swaps. I imagine this way I'll be able to keep up way more stacks of bleeding. I'm farming the 2 weapons right now so I should be able to test it out and see how I like it by next week. I think the play style will also get a little more creative since I'll also want to implement the #1 pistol skill from stealth somehow and I think bleeds duration will probably something I'll want to invest into.

#16 stefanplc

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 10:48 AM

View PostWebley, on 07 November 2012 - 12:09 AM, said:

5/0/30/30/5

Its working really really well for me

I use the same trinity system of ini regen, healthregen in stealth and use assassins reward for spending the init for more health (Then using the stealth to regen the init and health back to start all over again)

I did however opt for p/d and d/d and the +15% bleed duration runes for better results. People usually carry one condition removal so after stacking a few bleeds they get wiped by it then its on cool down and the duration just melts away after that phase. If you do your number crunching duration is more damage

If you want some really really insane fun, when you find a zerg, swap out roll for init for caltrops and get dagger storm. Plant the caltrops over the catapults sieging the keep and do a stealth/LDB/dagger storm/stealth rotation. Keep going until the caltrops are cooled down, rinse and repeat. Any siege operators will melt and empty siege will be left unused

Alternativley outside the keep doors where there are 3 rams being used, drop the caltrops, dagger storm, go back inside and rinse/repeat

When your back out roaming you can then swap out the caltrops/dagger storm to something more useful for random encounters.

I usually swap in the shotbow and swap out the pistol when zerging. Pistol is far greater than daggers however, and the number 3 skill gets you out of immobilise (As most melee users will want to imobbilise you then come up close to hit you so you can use 3 on them and escape. You also heal by using it from assassins reward)

pistol/dagger for roaming, daggers for zerging/dodging

The pistol skill number 1 applys bleeds and also counts as a dot a its constantly hitting with auto attack while you kite

Since youll be using less init when using pistol i swapped out roll for init for the movement signet for better kiting, but could also be swapped to caltrops

Yep, that's exactly what I was thinking so it's good to hear that it works! Bleeds duration is more important for pistol builds because your bleeds only last 5 seconds. With daggers they're already at 10 seconds so the increase in duration wasn't that important when factoring in the condition removal. I also planned on making a build, just like I did with my warrior, to fight multiple opponents. So for example on my warrior I always had Shake it Off and Mending which were 2 abilities to remove conditions with, one AoE so if I was to fight a similar warrior with 1-2 others, it would hurt me. I've also met several warriors using those runes where shouts remove conditions which was a pain.

Like I mentioned above, I'm planning on doing the exact same thing I am right now, however swap the shortbow for pistol/dagger. The play style will change a little bit as I'll want to implement the #1 pistol skill from stealth, but I'll still dump most of my initiative into Death Blossom as it both helps me evade attacks, heal up and it's double the duration for my bleeds.

Can't wait! I really feel this new play style will be way more interesting and creative!

#17 Lalnuir

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 12:38 PM

View Poststefanplc, on 06 November 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

Cluster Bombs is close to impossible even vs the worst players because everyone knows to get out of red circles. I can't detonate them in melee range either because they land really fast. My only regret is that I wish I could use these two abilities more often for a more diverse and interesting combat system.

Turn on fast ground targeting. Takes a bit to get use to but you can then detonate every single cluster bomb at pb range and just watch groups of people roll over and die.

#18 Danthin

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 01:30 PM

Nice build.. I've been branching out from my usual p/d build that Wild Bill was running into a more bleed stacking condition build and have had good success in WvW.  I've been running the following: http://en.gw2skills....POfk sCYEwGk5CA

I haven't experienced many issues with being able to get my bleeds to stick because the build has so many ways to apply them.  This build is very good for harassing zergs and defense, and is still very strong in 1vX situations in smaller scale combat.  The other place I find this build really excels is in small group covert ops and supply camp harassment.  I find that increasing bleed duration is generally better than condition damage, but the key is to shoot for either 75% condition duration or 100% condition duration.  I achieve 76% through the use of Super Veggie Pizza when combined with the runes.  The only place I really miss having the SB is when attacking keeps, but it is an easy weapon swap away.  Combo of caltrops and dagger storm is very powerful behind the main enemy zerg and the shadow refuge change recently makes flanking with this build very powerful with all the good escapes of CnD and stealth options.

Edited by Danthin, 07 November 2012 - 02:01 PM.

Winners and losers are largely differentiated by their way of thinking.

It means that if you’re thinking tend to be nearer to the Losers approach, it is possible for you to shift yourself back to the Winners way.

All you need is to be 100% honest with yourself, admit that some part of your life needs to be changed and work on it.

#19 stefanplc

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 02:48 PM

View PostDanthin, on 07 November 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

Nice build.. I've been branching out from my usual p/d build that Wild Bill was running into a more bleed stacking condition build and have had good success in WvW.  I've been running the following: http://en.gw2skills....POfk sCYEwGk5CA

I haven't experienced many issues with being able to get my bleeds to stick because the build has so many ways to apply them.  This build is very good for harassing zergs and defense, and is still very strong in 1vX situations in smaller scale combat.  The other place I find this build really excels is in small group covert ops and supply camp harassment.  I find that increasing bleed duration is generally better than condition damage, but the key is to shoot for either 75% condition duration or 100% condition duration.  I achieve 76% through the use of Super Veggie Pizza when combined with the runes.  The only place I really miss having the SB is when attacking keeps, but it is an easy weapon swap away.  Combo of caltrops and dagger storm is very powerful behind the main enemy zerg and the shadow refuge change recently makes flanking with this build very powerful with all the good escapes of CnD and stealth options.

I'm switching to P/D too instead of shortbow but keeping everything else the same and for a pistol bleeds duration is more important.. before where I was only using my daggers to apply bleeds, 10 seconds was long enough if you took into consideration all the possible condition removal abilities

#20 Danthin

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 03:15 PM

View Poststefanplc, on 07 November 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

I'm switching to P/D too instead of shortbow but keeping everything else the same and for a pistol bleeds duration is more important.. before where I was only using my daggers to apply bleeds, 10 seconds was long enough if you took into consideration all the possible condition removal abilities

You really need to try and work caltrops into that build too.. it is what generates the high bleed stacks and stacking duration makes them very potent combined with LDB.  Also I noticed in a few spots you left stealth with LDB when you had plenty of opportunities for a backstab.  Sure while the build doesn't excel at high backstabs it is still decent damage and you can LDB right after that.  

Sure in P/D you will generally unload more out of stealth and that is my primary weapon set and I only switch over to D/D when I'm in tight and looking to stack high bleeds or AOE.  My usual opener is to stealth around the person and pop caltrops (9 times out of 10 people don't even know it is there) and then switch D/D for the geomancy and LDB or in a lower number fight don't switch and just open with unload to put them under pressure and force the removal quickly.  Caltrops is almost a must in bleed builds in my opinion and at 24s with trickery reduction it is used a good amount.  Isn't a must in smaller combat but it makes a big difference in defense or roaming against zergs.  Sometimes a steal into CnD and then caltrops isn't bad either especially if you are looking for a juicy steal target.

Whisper me in game too and I'll hook you up with some veggie pizza's.  With 76% condition duration your bleeds look like the following:
  • Vital Shot - 7s
  • Sneak Attack - 7s
  • Death Blossom - 17s
  • Caltrops - 5s
You don't gain much pushing to 100% condition duration just 1s on most of the above and 3s on Death Blossom so 75% target is good place to be.

Edited by Danthin, 07 November 2012 - 03:21 PM.

Winners and losers are largely differentiated by their way of thinking.

It means that if you’re thinking tend to be nearer to the Losers approach, it is possible for you to shift yourself back to the Winners way.

All you need is to be 100% honest with yourself, admit that some part of your life needs to be changed and work on it.

#21 stefanplc

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 03:52 PM

View PostDanthin, on 07 November 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

You really need to try and work caltrops into that build too.. it is what generates the high bleed stacks and stacking duration makes them very potent combined with LDB.  Also I noticed in a few spots you left stealth with LDB when you had plenty of opportunities for a backstab.  Sure while the build doesn't excel at high backstabs it is still decent damage and you can LDB right after that.  

Sure in P/D you will generally unload more out of stealth and that is my primary weapon set and I only switch over to D/D when I'm in tight and looking to stack high bleeds or AOE.  My usual opener is to stealth around the person and pop caltrops (9 times out of 10 people don't even know it is there) and then switch D/D for the geomancy and LDB or in a lower number fight don't switch and just open with unload to put them under pressure and force the removal quickly.  Caltrops is almost a must in bleed builds in my opinion and at 24s with trickery reduction it is used a good amount.  Isn't a must in smaller combat but it makes a big difference in defense or roaming against zergs.  Sometimes a steal into CnD and then caltrops isn't bad either especially if you are looking for a juicy steal target.

Whisper me in game too and I'll hook you up with some veggie pizza's.  With 76% condition duration your bleeds look like the following:
  • Vital Shot - 7s
  • Sneak Attack - 7s
  • Death Blossom - 17s
  • Caltrops - 5s
You don't gain much pushing to 100% condition duration just 1s on most of the above and 3s on Death Blossom so 75% target is good place to be.

Great info! I'll see what I can do with caltrops but often fights move all over the place. I'm not really worried about inexperienced opponents that will sit in them, I'm planning for those that know what they're doing.

As far as bigger fights I agree that caltrops are really nice. I haven't tried it out myself but in theory I pictured that I could shadowstep in, drop caltrops, spam Death Blossoms and then shadow return back.

The pizza buff is so good I'm a little worried it's probably just too unfair. I know many people use all sort of buffs in WvWvW including food ones but I'm affraid that I'll just get used to playing with such a huge advantage and it'll hurt me once I'll get into tournaments. Still thinking about it. I checked the TP prices and the next best one which gives you 36% condition duration instead of 40% is only 50 copper or so which is a 1/4th of the price of the 40% one and loosing 4% isn't that big of a deal.

I haven't had time to experiment with D/D D/P but I have a feeling that I will be using both just as much, I won't have a main set and then a second one that I use every now and then. As D/D SB I used D/D around 75% of the time but with D/P I think I'll use both just about the same. The evasion from Death Blossom really helps and the condition duration there is more than twice as long as the pistol one so it's great for some serious damage once your opponent runs out of condition removals.

Edited by stefanplc, 07 November 2012 - 03:56 PM.


#22 BovinityCow

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 03:55 PM

Yeah, Caltrops seems like it'd be absolutely crushing in a build like this.

My only concern with a build like this would be Cluster Bomb not having the oomph to totally wreck opposing raids. That's so much fun!

#23 BacardiHD

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:20 AM

Been looking on for a few builds for wvw and this one looks like one I can enjoy and play. I'm still a level 25 thief using dual dagger and dual pistols, but I think I'd like a short bow instead of the pistols. So I'm using a different build for now. But once I get on a higher level, I'm going to work on this one.

I come across a small group sometime and seeing this build and playstyle does pretty well, this is really something I like.

The video pretty much made my choice.

#24 Neversage

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:33 PM

I've had decent success with cluster bomb if you can spam the key fast enough you CAN detonate it, it's just tricky. The problem with shortbow (I know, blasphemy, as shortbow is perfect) is that you already have AoE with D/D, so I run P/D as a second set a lot of the time to give me more single target survivability. CnD>Sneak Attack>Kite

#25 rza

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 10:51 PM

View Poststefanplc, on 14 November 2012 - 09:35 PM, said:

Just to give you an idea of what I'm playing like with D/D and P/D:

I start with P/D and pretty much start slowly, trying to pay attention to the incoming enemy burst as everyone tries to pop their CDs from the start. I apply several bleeds and I always try to throw in the cripple from the dagger pretty early. My goal is to try and avoid their burst and to force them to use a Condition removal. Generally people have 1 or 2 available  so the sooner you get those out of the way the better. Players usually HATE being crippled so that always helps getting them to use one. If they don't use a condition removal early and they just use it later through a heal, it usually means that's all they got and they waited because they also wanted to heal some damage. I then get in melee range with my P/D, swap to my D/D applying 3 bleeds with Sigil of Geomancy and use ALL of my initative on Deathblossoms. If I'm fighting multiple opponents I drop Shadow Refuge so that I can quickly regain my initiative back, use everything on Deathblossom again vs the people I missed and then go back to P/D and do the usual rotation again.

That's the general idea and it works really well vs groups of 2 or 3 people and often you can take on even more people. Start slowly, avoid their burst and get them to use their condition removal and then overwhelm them. Because you're starting slowly with a pistol and you keep range you kind of get them to follow you, so when you swap to daggers it's like Christmas.

I decided to response here instead of Thief Nerf Prediction thread.  Now that I've fully watched your video and read your thread I can see why you chose your traits and utilities.  I see that you don’t use Caltrops in WvW, and you’re right any good player would just stands out of it (faced one the other day).  However in sPVP, I drop Caltrops on the node which helps to repel some players.  I chose Master of Deception for the 20% off cool downs for that longer duration of the fight because I am using two Utilities that benefits from this: Shadow Step & Shadow Refuge so that’s 10 seconds off SS, 12 seconds off SR respectively.  I’m ambivalent about Infusion of Shadow and trying to think how often I go into stealth, which seems often as a defense/heals and may have to revisit IofS.  As of right now I seem to do pretty well with Master of Deception and Quick Recovery for the extra 2 init every 10sec.  I will have to try IofS + Assassin’s Reward to see how it goes.  I chose Uncatchable as you will see why in my strategy opener.

Anyhow yes for the P/D you have a very good strategy on your opener almost like a mind game to get them to remove conditions. For my DD/PP :

I have similar tactics in sPvP, though I still think there’s always room for a little work.  However it seems to work well with melee match ups.  I start off with P/P staying with #1 to apply some bleeds, I keep watch, if he closes in, I dodge, and dodge again if necessary, then I hit #5 for black powder, do a silly #3 unload, trivial damage but it can force them to use skills that will miss because I’m blinding them and avoid getting hits.  I swap to D/D for a Sigil of Geomancy of 3 bleeds, I stay stealth for the full duration and then drop Caltrops at the center of the node/on them and proceed to LDBs until inits are depleted, Steal for Kleptomaniac for adittional 3 init and vigor rengen from Bountiful Theft, then swap again back to P/P keep pressure with #1 while at the same time dodging when neccesary, thus applying more Caltrops from dodge for the extra bleeds.  Once I see a heal animation going I hit #4 for a daze and it’s usually over, keeping Black Powder up to avoid hits.

#26 stefanplc

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:28 PM

View Postrza, on 14 November 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

I decided to response here instead of Thief Nerf Prediction thread.  Now that I've fully watched your video and read your thread I can see why you chose your traits and utilities.  I see that you don’t use Caltrops in WvW, and you’re right any good player would just stands out of it (faced one the other day).  However in sPVP, I drop Caltrops on the node which helps to repel some players.  I chose Master of Deception for the 20% off cool downs for that longer duration of the fight because I am using two Utilities that benefits from this: Shadow Step & Shadow Refuge so that’s 10 seconds off SS, 12 seconds off SR respectively.  I’m ambivalent about Infusion of Shadow and trying to think how often I go into stealth, which seems often as a defense/heals and may have to revisit IofS.  As of right now I seem to do pretty well with Master of Deception and Quick Recovery for the extra 2 init every 10sec.  I will have to try IofS + Assassin’s Reward to see how it goes.  I chose Uncatchable as you will see why in my strategy opener.

Anyhow yes for the P/D you have a very good strategy on your opener almost like a mind game to get them to remove conditions. For my DD/PP :

I have similar tactics in sPvP, though I still think there’s always room for a little work.  However it seems to work well with melee match ups.  I start off with P/P staying with #1 to apply some bleeds, I keep watch, if he closes in, I dodge, and dodge again if necessary, then I hit #5 for black powder, do a silly #3 unload, trivial damage but it can force them to use skills that will miss because I’m blinding them and avoid getting hits.  I swap to D/D for a Sigil of Geomancy of 3 bleeds, I stay stealth for the full duration and then drop Caltrops at the center of the node/on them and proceed to LDBs until inits are depleted, Steal for Kleptomaniac for adittional 3 init and vigor rengen from Bountiful Theft, then swap again back to P/P keep pressure with #1 while at the same time dodging when neccesary, thus applying more Caltrops from dodge for the extra bleeds.  Once I see a heal animation going I hit #4 for a daze and it’s usually over, keeping Black Powder up to avoid hits.

I haven't done much sPvP on my Thief yet but I probably start will soon. Infusion of Shadow is absolutely GOLDEN for 2 reasons. The first one is when you use Shadow Refuge, because that skill pulsates stealth, you're getting 2 initative every second so it's really a battery charger. You can waste all of your initiative with Deathblossoms and then after using Shadow Refuge be back in good shape. The other reason Infusion of Shadow is so good is for CnD which now costs only 4 initiative instead of 6 and if you wait out most of its period in stealth, it almost costs nothing and you get a good chunk of healing. Shadow's Embrace is also a must in my opinion because you often get caught in all sort of conditions not just damage but also cripple, immobilize and so forth and you can remove those with a simple stealth.

For my play style this build is pretty much perfect. I'm still not sure yet what the best trait for the first 10 points in Acrobatics is. I used to go with Fleet Shadow because before I needed to be in range more since D/D was my weapon set most of the time but now with P/D being constantly switched to, I'm thinking Power of Inertia might be better.

I could switch Blinding Powder for Caltrops but I'm playing my build a little more defensively so I'm not 100% sold on it. Often if I get caught in say a warrior's Bolas, by the time he gets to me I can just use Blinding Powder and with Shadow's Embrace get out and turn the advantage to me. The warrior was coming in for a burst, but now I'm bursting him down. Shadow's Embrace removes its first condition the moment you go into stealth and then one more if you stay in stealth for 3 more seconds.

#27 Mursie

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 12:09 AM

25/0/0/20/25

dmg is insane with two dmg modifers in DA and trickery line.  you are maximizing condition dmg with power and condition dmg bonuses from DA and Trickery.  Use bowl of orrian truffle and meat stew... and power of inertia to stack tons of might while you dodge caltrops all over your opponent and LDB between those.  Quick Recovery is your friend with +2 initiative regain.  Go even cheesier wtih infiltrator signet for another gain of +1 to initiative.  Run P/D - D/D.  Between your high dmg output...your insane initiative recovery..your endless dodges and the caltrops you are spreading everywhere back and forth over your opponent..it will look like an endless see of LDB bleeding everywhere.  shadow refuge and hide in shadows are merely breaks inbetween all that LDB/Dodge nightmare for you to swap and unload a sneak attack.

#28 Leonadid

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 10:18 AM

View PostMursie, on 15 November 2012 - 12:09 AM, said:

25/0/0/20/25

dmg is insane with two dmg modifers in DA and trickery line.  you are maximizing condition dmg with power and condition dmg bonuses from DA and Trickery.  Use bowl of orrian truffle and meat stew... and power of inertia to stack tons of might while you dodge caltrops all over your opponent and LDB between those.  Quick Recovery is your friend with +2 initiative regain.  Go even cheesier wtih infiltrator signet for another gain of +1 to initiative.  Run P/D - D/D.  Between your high dmg output...your insane initiative recovery..your endless dodges and the caltrops you are spreading everywhere back and forth over your opponent..it will look like an endless see of LDB bleeding everywhere.  shadow refuge and hide in shadows are merely breaks inbetween all that LDB/Dodge nightmare for you to swap and unload a sneak attack.

That seems extremely squishy though.

#29 Granfala

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:38 PM

Any update on new spec/playstyle/etc?  Loved the original video, but can't wait to see results if you have incorporated p/d into the equation instead of SB.

Loved the video.  Great stuff.

#30 SlizeTT

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:38 AM

Hi.
I really liked your Vid overall, and happy to see brother-build-soul :)
3rd song is from really nice vid i like about kayaking :) +here heheh
Im not gonna try to point you any utilities or ask if you would change triats, becouse your build is yours, but just one thing i noticed

-Try to keep your SR when your initiative is low, then you can bouth hide and regain it while you recover, i saw you often go into SR with full ini, and its great way to recover 15 ini in like 5 seconds wich gets you alot of dmg

As of Precision that someone metioned, you really would have to go with alot, sacrificing eighter vit, str or con dmg, i would bet Str, but i dont think there are stats like that (coz i was looking for my engi), and sacrificing vit or con dmg would be bad. I was thinking of it myself but dropped it for healing power (my build differs a lil)

As for D/D con dmg in large scale, it works nice with shadowstep when u can shadowstep > db > db > db > shadowreturn and recover.
Im working on a vid now from fghts like this, its really lots of fun :)

Catch me in game Slize.6420 , when ur up to some discussion, im sure we can learn alot from ourselves as i really like solo/small group roaming alot too.

heres my build, or rather its pve version, but only changing Shadowstep to Caldrops for PvE (and 1 triat if im not mistaken)
http://en.gw2codex.c...con-dmg-dungeon

cheers




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