16 replies to this topic

[Tchaikovsky_1812]

I'm not sure whether or not anything like this has been mentioned before, but here goes.

Throughout the [Asuran] story line you learn that draconic energy can be captured and stored / used, this is the premise of the dungeon 'Crucible of Eternity' where Kudu (inquest member), the ex-apprentice of Snaff the dead ex-member of destiny's edge, absorbs draconic energies to create their own  draconic servants. A scene which could be compared to the Mary Shelly novel 'Frankenstein' published in 1918.

So now we know of these [spoil] draconic energies, I come to my point. If like energy / matter in the real world (whatever that is?) it cannot be created or destroyed and is always conserved, then once one dragon dies, as one does in the story line, do these residual draconic energies which is now free become absorbed by the remaining dragons or their minions. This being the case, the remaining dragons would become increasingly stronger as a result of each dragon killed throughout the story so far and the story to come.

Will this result in an unbeatable final dragon remaining, or as I suspect, will an increase in power of the remaining dragons be noticed and my idea realised by the 'scientists' of Tyria and used the technology, or some variant of it, which Kudu used to try and create a Frankenstein like creature?

Apologies, for the bad formatting this was my first post.

[Miragee]

Tchaikovsky_1812, on 06 November 2012 - 07:13 PM, said:

I'm not sure whether or not anything like this has been mentioned before, but here goes.

Throughout the [Asuran] story line you learn that draconic energy can be captured and stored / used, this is the premise of the dungeon 'Crucible of Eternity' where Kudu (inquest member), the ex-apprentice of Snaff the dead ex-member of destiny's edge, absorbs draconic energies to create their own  draconic servants. A scene which could be compared to the Mary Shelly novel 'Frankenstein' published in 1918.

So now we know of these [spoil] draconic energies, I come to my point. If like energy / matter in the real world (whatever that is?) it cannot be created or destroyed and is always conserved, then once one dragon dies, as one does in the story line, do these residual draconic energies which is now free become absorbed by the remaining dragons or their minions. This being the case, the remaining dragons would become increasingly stronger as a result of each dragon killed throughout the story so far and the story to come.

Will this result in an unbeatable final dragon remaining, or as I suspect, will an increase in power of the remaining dragons be noticed and my idea realised by the 'scientists' of Tyria and used the technology, or some variant of it, which Kudu used to try and create a Frankenstein like creature?

Apologies, for the bad formatting this was my first post.

Where did you get the idea that the other dragons absorb the energy of a fallen one? They don't work together and they are simply not lined up to each other. Also we don't know what happens with the energy, will it be released, is it put into new creation, will it be absorbed by something else etc. we don't know. We can speculate and go beyond the scope of this forum. I don't that we - with our current knowledge - can get any real answer to your question.

[Mockingjay74]

Tchaikovsky_1812, on 06 November 2012 - 07:13 PM, said:

I'm not sure whether or not anything like this has been mentioned before, but here goes.

Throughout the [Asuran] story line you learn that draconic energy can be captured and stored / used, this is the premise of the dungeon 'Crucible of Eternity' where Kudu (inquest member), the ex-apprentice of Snaff the dead ex-member of destiny's edge, absorbs draconic energies to create their own  draconic servants. A scene which could be compared to the Mary Shelly novel 'Frankenstein' published in 1918.

So now we know of these [spoil] draconic energies, I come to my point. If like energy / matter in the real world (whatever that is?) it cannot be created or destroyed and is always conserved, then once one dragon dies, as one does in the story line, do these residual draconic energies which is now free become absorbed by the remaining dragons or their minions. This being the case, the remaining dragons would become increasingly stronger as a result of each dragon killed throughout the story so far and the story to come.

Will this result in an unbeatable final dragon remaining, or as I suspect, will an increase in power of the remaining dragons be noticed and my idea realised by the 'scientists' of Tyria and used the technology, or some variant of it, which Kudu used to try and create a Frankenstein like creature?

Apologies, for the bad formatting this was my first post.

First, welcome to Guru ^^

Second, as Miragee pointed out, I don't think that other dragons absorb another dragon's energy. I personally don't think that energy or matter in Tyria works the same was as it does here in the real world, and it's not really safe to assume that because it's a fantasy world. So my fairly certain answer to your first question ("do these residual draconic energies .... become absorbed by the remaining dragons or their minions?") is no. Elder Dragons don't actually interact with each other or any other beings very often. For example, you won't see Jormag having coffee with Kralkatorrik any time soon. They are each trying to consume as much magic and power as possible, and corrupt and gain as many minions as possible, but they would not consume draconic energy or share it. I believe that one ED's minions cannot be corrupted by another ED. I have not seen an Icebrood Thrall or a Risen Icebrood. So I would assume that, by extension, Elder Dragons themselves cannot be corrupted by each other (although the visual I'm getting of some sickeningly awesome ED fight is fairly... sickeningly awesome).

[draxynnic]

My gut feeling is that it's possible... but its not something that happens to default. "Draconic energy" is basically magic energy that has been twisted by passing through a dragon - as we see in the personal story (especially the asura personal story) dragons gain their energy in the first place by eating magical artifacts, and then pass that energy out to their minions.

When a dragon dies, my feeling is that that dragon's energy remains rather than being released - spread out among the dragon's surviving minions, or remaining confined within the dragon's body. So if one dragon was to eat the corpse of another dragon or go hunting its minions, it might be able to achieve the scenario proposed by the OP, but this would be no different to that dragon consuming a trove of magical artifacts that had been previously unrelated to the dragons. Or, for that matter, a dragon consuming a Spirit of the Wild or a god.

[Rekkwum]

Mockingjay74, on 07 November 2012 - 01:47 AM, said:

I believe that one ED's minions cannot be corrupted by another ED. I have not seen an Icebrood Thrall or a Risen Icebrood. So I would assume that, by extension, Elder Dragons themselves cannot be corrupted by each other (although the visual I'm getting of some sickeningly awesome ED fight is fairly... sickeningly awesome).

Well, we don't know if it's possible "in the wild", but in CoE, Kudu's creations are made from multiple corruptions - Kudu's monster, for instance, possesses aspects of both Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik's draconic corruption.


I'd guess that after death, a dragon's energy would be released - it's suggested while killing Zhaitan's high-ranking minions that the energy stored within them doesn't go back to Zhaitan; it makes more sense that it be returned back into the world.
This does suggest a scenario that were the dragons left unchecked, they would first consume all the world's magic, turning on each other when it ran out.

[Mockingjay74]

Rekkwum, on 07 November 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:

Well, we don't know if it's possible "in the wild", but in CoE, Kudu's creations are made from multiple corruptions - Kudu's monster, for instance, possesses aspects of both Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik's draconic corruption.

I'd guess that after death, a dragon's energy would be released - it's suggested while killing Zhaitan's high-ranking minions that the energy stored within them doesn't go back to Zhaitan; it makes more sense that it be returned back into the world.
This does suggest a scenario that were the dragons left unchecked, they would first consume all the world's magic, turning on each other when it ran out.

Although Kudu's creations are just that, creations. Tchaikovsky worded it perfectly, they are extremely similar to Frankenstein. Isn't Kudu trying to gain the power of the Elder Dragons? If that's the case, it would make sense that he would try to combine them into one super-being.

I think that "energy" may be the wrong term in these theories. "Magic" is probably more accurate, or "corruption." I like your theory, and it makes sense. Especially considering that the Elder Dragons' champions are capable of thinking on their own, it would make sense that their magic would be somewhat separated as well. Your suggestion poses a question. When Kralkatorrik is eventually killed, will his corruption (magic, energy) leak like it did when he woke up? It's almost impossible to tell with Zhaitan because his entire environment was corrupted, and I have a hard time thinking we'll ever fight an ED outside of his abode (three maps).

draxynnic, on 07 November 2012 - 02:23 AM, said:

Or, for that matter, a dragon consuming a Spirit of the Wild or a god.

Spoiler

The norn "Wild Spirits" story line shows the Sons of Svanir hunting the Minotaur spirit and I believe even confirms that Jormag (or a beast sent to SoS that is some minion or another of Jormag) wants to eat Minotaur. If champions consume magic, perhaps it is sent to the Elder Dragon, but the energy may not flow the same way. Theorycrafting/grasping for the win!

Edited by Mockingjay74, 08 November 2012 - 02:58 AM.

[Red J]

I think magic works the same as energy in our world in a sense that it can't be destroyed. Like we saw in GW:Nightfall. After we killed Abaddon, there was a large amout of magic/energy left that threatened to destroy the world. There is, however, a question why the abaddon's energy was so unstable it had to be captured, compared to draconic energy.

Maybe the answer is the magic is more wild and volatile in mists than it is in Tyria. Bloodstones could play a role in this too.

[draxynnic]

Mockingjay74, on 08 November 2012 - 02:55 AM, said:

Spoiler

The norn "Wild Spirits" story line shows the Sons of Svanir hunting the Minotaur spirit and I believe even confirms that Jormag (or a beast sent to SoS that is some minion or another of Jormag) wants to eat Minotaur. If champions consume magic, perhaps it is sent to the Elder Dragon, but the energy may not flow the same way. Theorycrafting/grasping for the win!

We've also been told outright that Jormag ate Owl (and three other spirits are missing) and (lategame spoiler):

Spoiler

The Mouth of Zhaitan step shows that an elder dragon can consume a source of magic through a champion, but special arrangements (such as a champion) are required to do so - it can't just soak up magic from anywhere.

So it's a given that a dragon can absorb the power from a thing of magic by eating it, personally or by proxy - and the lore says a dragon has already eaten at least one Spirit of the Wild. Since the gods are the most magically powerful non-dragon beings we currently know of, this presents a simple explanation as to why the gods aren't getting personally involved - because if a god gets killed and eaten by a dragon, that dragon becomes that much more powerful.

Relating this back to the main topic, then, if the same rules apply it's possible for one dragon to claim a defeated dragon's power - by consuming the remains, minions, and/or artifacts infused by their rival's power. However, a dragon's death doesn't release the power to automatically be redistributed to the other dragons - they have to take active steps to claim that power, which may already be being claimed or defended by those who slew the dead dragon in the first place.

So killing Zhaitan isn't going to directly cause the other dragons to become stronger. However, it is possible that Zhaitan's death might lead one or more of the other dragons to assault the Pact in Orr in order to claim Zhaitan's power.

Edited by draxynnic, 08 November 2012 - 11:53 AM.

[Mockingjay74]

draxynnic, on 08 November 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

We've also been told outright that Jormag ate Owl (and three other spirits are missing) and (lategame spoiler):

Spoiler

The Mouth of Zhaitan step shows that an elder dragon can consume a source of magic through a champion, but special arrangements (such as a champion) are required to do so - it can't just soak up magic from anywhere.

So it's a given that a dragon can absorb the power from a thing of magic by eating it, personally or by proxy - and the lore says a dragon has already eaten at least one Spirit of the Wild. Since the gods are the most magically powerful non-dragon beings we currently know of, this presents a simple explanation as to why the gods aren't getting personally involved - because if a god gets killed and eaten by a dragon, that dragon becomes that much more powerful.

Relating this back to the main topic, then, if the same rules apply it's possible for one dragon to claim a defeated dragon's power - by consuming the remains, minions, and/or artifacts infused by their rival's power. However, a dragon's death doesn't release the power to automatically be redistributed to the other dragons - they have to take active steps to claim that power, which may already be being claimed or defended by those who slew the dead dragon in the first place.

So killing Zhaitan isn't going to directly cause the other dragons to become stronger. However, it is possible that Zhaitan's death might lead one or more of the other dragons to assault the Pact in Orr in order to claim Zhaitan's power.

I forgot about Owl, but I did know that!

I wonder where the gods have fled to if they are avoiding the Elder Dragons. If they remained on the planet Tyria, that would imply there are areas that do not have Elder Dragons. If they didn't remain on the planet... they left the planet and went somewhere else, kind of like how the mursaat fled.

[Alexwentworth]

Another cool storyline would be for a splinter group within the pact to attempt to harness, (and maybe purify along the way) the residual magic of Zhaitan. I think fighting an enemy with only good intentions would be a wonderful addition to GW2, seeing as most of our "bad guys" right now are actually bad.

Also, i wonder exactly how the draconic energy could be absorbed. Does it reside in the dragon's corpse after death; does it flow into, and subsequently empower, remaining minions and generals; or does it go into the background of the area (creating a sort of "increased magic levels" situation a la Banestorm or other tabletop rpgs)?

I can't wait to find out.

[draxynnic]

Mockingjay74, on 08 November 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

I forgot about Owl, but I did know that!

I wonder where the gods have fled to if they are avoiding the Elder Dragons. If they remained on the planet Tyria, that would imply there are areas that do not have Elder Dragons. If they didn't remain on the planet... they left the planet and went somewhere else, kind of like how the mursaat fled.

They left, and not specifically to avoid the dragons. That's why dates are listed "after the Exodus" - year 0 is when the gods left. Some of the Nightfall prerelease information suggests that it's because they saw the destruction that a war between gods could cause (the Desolation) and wanted to remove themselves from the temptation of doing it again.

They continued interacting with the world via avatars and other interventions until Nightfall, after which they seem to have withdrawn pretty much entirely (there's the human racial skills, but an interpretation of their leaving speech suggests that those skills might be tapping into gifts the gods granted to humanity before leaving, rather than direct interventions). It's possible that the gods stopped intervening because they knew the dragons were close to waking, but there's no hard evidence the gods left because they were fleeing from the dragons.

It's possible, however, that the reason they're not jumping into the fray now the dragons are awake is that they don't want to run the risk of losing and leaving the dragons that much more powerful.

Edited by draxynnic, 09 November 2012 - 02:22 AM.

[Konig Des Todes]

Spirits are also a form of energy and magic, from my observations and theorycrafting (the facts are that spirits are used to channel proto-magic of sorts (Ritualists) and can be devoured or otherwise used for energy/power). When a creature dies, their spirit is released, and when a spirit dies, the energy disperses - though in unique cases, such as extremely strong ties to the mortal world or through external powerful magic like the Foefire, the soul can reform over time.

I would imagine the same goes for the Elder Dragons. "Draconic energy" is, as drax put it, merely corrupted magic. The Elder Dragons feed via magic (this would probably be why Owl is absolutely no more - if spirits are energy, and magic is energy, then devouring magic is akin to devouring souls, so Owl's very existence was, like magic Jormag devoured should he function the same as Zhaitan in the most basic scale, corrupted within his being and sent out to his minions), so under this concept it would indeed be possible for one Elder Dragon to consume and twist the energy/soul of another Elder Dragon. However, their immediate presence or the presence of a specialized minion like the Mouth of Zhaitan would be required to do such.

From Abaddon, we know that when beings of exceptional power are slain - and, I suspect due to various situations outside of Abaddon's, that threatened to destroy Abaddon's very soul when we killed him - that power they had, that is to say their magic/energy, would explode. Given this didn't happen with Zhaitan and we're told that the Elder Dragons and the Six Gods are on par, this would mean one of three things:

1) Zhaitan isn't dead (least likely imo).
2) Zhaitan's energy was absorbed by something.
3) Zhaitan's soul, which would in this theory require to be destroyed, is around - either in Tyria or the Mists.

If situation 3 is the case, then it is very much possible not only for the Elder Dragons to absorb Zhaitan's power, but for other creatures, and given the charr's technological developments for spiritual containment, devices too.

[silavor]

Don't forget that you spend almost every step of the latter portion of the PS weakening Zhaitan's power. It's entirely possible that by the time Zhaitan actually died it had nowhere near as much raw power as Abaddon, hence why there was no explosion. Zhaitan may not have had enough juice left to go supernova.

[Mockingjay74]

Abbadon was also a god, and Zhaitan was also a dragon. There's nothing for sure saying that dragons explode when killed, is there?

[Konig Des Todes]

It really depends on why Abaddon risked exploding. By all indication, it's because gods have a massive amount of magical power. Which Elder Dragons also have.

[shadavenger]

EDs consume magical artifacts and I think is they transform those magics into draconic energy. I assume everything that they do requires those draconic energy (e.g. raising undead servants, controlling them, fighting us). So in my opinion, when those draconic energy runs out or gets to a certain level the EDs may go to a certain dormant/sleep stay and in that state they may slowly collect magics in their surroundings and turn those magics into draconic energy, when they get enough of those energy then they are awaken, hence repeating the cyles.

Now the idea of their draconic energy being released and give form to new creations (after being defeated) is intriguing because we know from Arah explorable, the last time that the EDs awoke only 5 races survived (because Glint shielded them from the EDs detection and therefore consumption) which include the dwarves, jotun, mursaat, seers and the forgotten. So How/where did the rest of the races come from after the EDs went back to sleep?

I not sure if these magics can be corrupted or transformed. Magic is just energy and so draconic energy can simply mean magic control by dragons? So after the EDs are defeated, those magics can just return to the world.

Sorry for the long post and going off topic a little. From the lost scrolls, we know that the gods came to Arah tried to create a paradise and Lyssa was trying to make them forget the past, forget all the sadness associated with it. This happened after the last time the EDs awoke and the EDs destroyed everything (except for 5 races). So could the gods have created life back then, loved them like their own children, gifted them with magic which in turn fed the EDs, woke them up and destroyed everything. The gods were sad because their "children" got destroyed. And so when Abaddon gifted humans and others, he was punished by the other gods because what will repeat the cycle of awaking the dragons?

Edited by shadavenger, 30 November 2012 - 01:59 PM.

[Konig Des Todes]

Technically, the mursaat fled the world. And those five are the surviving sentient races that "lived to tell the tale" - and this is all from jotun and dwarven records (mostly jotun).

This means that there were likely non-sentient races who survived. Similarly, it's possible that sentient races that didn't confront the Elder Dragons survived. And then there's the possibility that sentient races outside the dwarven and/or jotun's historical records survived despite facing the Elder Dragons.

For instance, Karka are highly implied to have been present during the last Elder Dragon rise, though they may not be considered among those "sentient" races (though I'd presume that when we were told sentient races, they meant sapient - as the former is often used for the later). Krait, kodan, and tengu might also be possible survivors from the last Elder Dragon rise as well, as back then they would have lived outside the knowledge of the jotun and dwarves (kodan being much further north, their historical "great storm" possibly made by Jormag; tengu were a world-wide race prior to migrating to the Dominion of Winds, so who knows where they started; krait being oceanic dwellers might have met forgotten, but it's possible not the others, and their prophets really make me think of the DSD).

As to magic being corrupted - yes, it can be. That's the entire basis around the Bloodstone and how the Elder Dragons corrupt (or at least how Zhaitan does). They absorb magic, corrupt it, then spew it back out altering what that magic touches. The original Bloodstone was made to contain all non-corrupted magic in the world, effectively to starve the Elder Dragons I presume.

The Six Gods were not around during the last Elder Dragon rise to all our knowledge. It's implied even that the Six Gods did not know about the Elder Dragons (or at least, that they lived atop of one).