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How is the Guardian Balanced compared to Warrior?


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#1 Galatea

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:11 PM

Ok first of all, i am completely mistified as how the balancing in this game works, specifically with these two classes, i made this threat to put all my toughts in one place and for the sake of discussion, (no flaming pls) Here goes :)

I- Defensive Ability
---------------------------------------------------

If you look at the following shard:

http://en.gw2skills.net/game/armor/


You'll noticed that both Warrior and Guardian have good armor but for some reason Guardian has the lowest health in the game while warrior has the highest.

I realize Guardian has "defensive spells" but if you notice our bubbles only block ranged attacks and the Warriors can heal aswell as Guardians and also have their own survival methods.


II- Damage Output
---------------------------------------------------

The warrior has straight up more damage output than the Guardian, they have a lot of skills to increase damage aswell as conditions. Guardians only have Burning witch only increases in duration.

The warrior can use Rifles and Bows, this gives them incredible long range damage not only that but Kiting potential aswell. So not only do they do more damage and have higher health, but by kiting they can kill a Guardian without recieving any or little damage in return.

Guardians have no effective long range weapon. The scepter is not only slow but easily avoidable and does very little damage. Guardians are the only class in the game that have to get close to their targets, while having the lowest base health and very low duration of stuns/dissables.

In PVP everyone mantains a heavy group formation so getting close is not often a good idea. Kitting becomes an even bigger problem when other classes not only have defence/health and range but survival methods aswell. ex. (rocket jump, slippery oil, knockbacks, knockdowns, slows etc etc.)

III- Other Arguments:
-------------------------------------------------------

-Guardians are supposed to be a support class:

I would normally accept this, except in this game nobody is "supposed to be anything". (no holy trinity means) Everyone can Support, (Engineers have turrets, Necros have pets, Mesmers have a lot of support skills etc), Everyone can "Tank", DPS, Use ranged weapons etc. this is actually one of the main strenghts of the game.

*Final Note:
This is my opinion from experience and what i have seen, i dont want this to become a flame thread, only smart discussions please.

Thanks :D

Edited by Galatea, 06 November 2012 - 09:20 PM.


#2 Sizmo

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:21 PM

I'm going to restate and elaborate on something you bring up in your post.


"Guardians are support classes"

When you say that every class can heal, you're right.  everyone has a #6 heal.  In addition to the #6 heal, guardians can heal by:
1.  casting boons on others (heals the guardian)
2.  use Symbols for Regen (more healing) that have probably 80% uptime.
3.  trait to have a constant 200hp/s heal on any surounding allies including themselves - full time.
4.  Have an elite for AE (up to 5 targets) FULL hp heal regardless of player HP numbers
4b. Have spammable 1500+hp heals on elite #1 that are AE
5.  Heal for 1300+ AE for EVERY dodge roll.
6.  Have traits to prolong boon duration, of which regen is affected.

On top of these extra ways to heal, Guardians have:
1. Loads of stability options that are AE.  Stability is super important.
2. Equally packed with ways of maintaining Protection (all incoming dmg negated by 33%)
3. Have AE protection shelters (bubbles) that block projectiles AND FOES, from entering.
3b. Bubbles often have secondary effects that heal all inside as well.
4.  Have quite a few ways to remove conditions. They aren't the best at this, but they are WAY ahead of a number of other classes.
5.  Decent amount of knockbacks.  Not the #1 class for this but they are quite proficient in this aspect.


Warriors out DPS guardians, have more hps and do come with a #6 heal.. but they are a dps class and should not be compared to a guardian as guardians are something else entirely.

#3 Fluent Fox

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:25 PM

While there are no dedicated healers, I think people need to stop thinking that negates the idea of balanced team building and support classes.

#4 Galatea

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 10:10 PM

View PostSizmo, on 06 November 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

I'm going to restate and elaborate on something you bring up in your post.


"Guardians are support classes"

When you say that every class can heal, you're right.  everyone has a #6 heal.  In addition to the #6 heal, guardians can heal by:
1.  casting boons on others (heals the guardian)
2.  use Symbols for Regen (more healing) that have probably 80% uptime.
3.  trait to have a constant 200hp/s heal on any surounding allies including themselves - full time.
4.  Have an elite for AE (up to 5 targets) FULL hp heal regardless of player HP numbers
4b. Have spammable 1500+hp heals on elite #1 that are AE
5.  Heal for 1300+ AE for EVERY dodge roll.
6.  Have traits to prolong boon duration, of which regen is affected.

On top of these extra ways to heal, Guardians have:
1. Loads of stability options that are AE.  Stability is super important.
2. Equally packed with ways of maintaining Protection (all incoming dmg negated by 33%)
3. Have AE protection shelters (bubbles) that block projectiles AND FOES, from entering.
3b. Bubbles often have secondary effects that heal all inside as well.
4.  Have quite a few ways to remove conditions. They aren't the best at this, but they are WAY ahead of a number of other classes.
5.  Decent amount of knockbacks.  Not the #1 class for this but they are quite proficient in this aspect.


Warriors out DPS guardians, have more hps and do come with a #6 heal.. but they are a dps class and should not be compared to a guardian as guardians are something else entirely.

First of all thanks for the detailed reply.

The heals are a very important part of the Guardian i didnt mention but this is moving the topic away from the biggest problem, in my opinion, Ranged weapons and kitting.

This game is a race of damage/mitigation/healing. The problem is that with healing your trying to compensate for the kitting dissadvantage, but the problem with this is that Arena.net already compensated this for us by giving us the LOWEST base health in the game.

Now lets say we have a lot of utility healing, in paper this sounds great, but in reality if you spec for healing your already specializing in something and disregarding something else. You cant balance a class if it requires it to head in one particular direction only, when every other class does everything relatively well.

Also the skills in themselves are not a counter balance,
Healing on dodge is very insignificant, regeneration is also very weak, when there is damage with 4 digits and a plethora of other conditions flying around.

The thing is if you try to counter all these by stacking healing spells your basically making a gimped character struggling to stay alive (maybe providing some limited support to your team) and while your skills are on cooldown all those rifles and bows keep firing. Im not saying healing is useless, healing is great but it comes with its own risks. Even our elite skill becomes useless with one simple knockback, i for one dont use them over renewed focus (altough i admit im not the authority on Guardians)

Meanwhile, warriors have the Highest health, the Highest Armor, Healing spells, Long range and Damage.

Again, lets leave healing aside, what really worries me is the ability for other classes to kite a guardian for extended periods of time with no drawbacks, we have no long range weapons that are reliable. All the Guardian problems would be fixed if the Scepters damage or speed or both are increased if only a little, and we are given ATLEAST mid tier Health.

Edited by Galatea, 06 November 2012 - 10:27 PM.


#5 Zippor

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 10:17 PM

Please no, guardian is already too strong. It's only a matter of time when we see more nerf for it...

#6 Sizmo

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 10:33 PM

View PostGalatea, on 06 November 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

[lots 'o text here...]

I think you're missing the point in running a guardian for tPvP.  Kills dont win you tournament matches, Holding points does.  If you're asking how it is that warriors get the most hps while guardians get the least (in the same armor class), the answer is because they are on the opposite spectrum from one another.  The guardian shouldn't be able to chase down and slaughter a warrior from range: it would be OP.  Just like a warrior shouldnt be able to turtle on a point and lock it down for any significant amount of time while STILL maintaining high dps.

It sounds like your gripe is purely focused around lack of ranged options for the guardian.  On my guardian i dont care about range.  I have a point to hold and if you're inside my circle of influence, then i need to get you out via knockbacks or supporting my team so they stay alive long enough to kill you and your team.

i swear the only reason why guardian has a ranged option at all is to chip away at Downed enemies while being able to stand on the point: no more no less.

#7 Galatea

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:00 PM

Then how about this little text:

(Everyone else has the option to do any role when build for it. Guardian is a point holder / support)

Edited by Galatea, 06 November 2012 - 11:18 PM.


#8 Sizmo

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:15 PM

View PostGalatea, on 06 November 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

Then how about this little text:

(Everyone else has the option to do any role when build for it. Guardian is a turtler / support)

Other than an ele, i dont think you'll get the same kind of support from any other class.  You're welcome to conjure a build and link it here so we can review why it is or isn't a good choice, but i think you'll find it hard to come up with anything close.

Ele and guardian compete for the same role, with the difference being ele isn't huge on stability/protection uptime like a guardian is but they have better healing/condition removal and can do some decent dmg even when spec'd for healing.

#9 Krisa

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:20 PM

As having a 80 guard i agree with this lol! While yes Warriors have / can use bows and Guns which offer them a 1200 range with 2 wpns , vs guardians get scepter which its auto atk is slow but its aoe ground target skill is nice. While people really under estimate the power of the staff , while not sure if u can make a huge dps staff build with a guard but the cone aoe auto atk is nice , the orb is slow but it has 1200 range and u can explode it anytime you want to do dmg and heal you.

The staff's wall skill is omg amazing in wvw , I wish you could spec it to last longer and didn't have to stop to use it..

While the gun and bow for warriors is quite nice and do wish guardians had better range selection or least better skills , im ok with the ones we have.. Yes guardians have the lowest health which sux , but imo feel thats ok , because we have defensive spells , we have a Aegis every 40 secs or 30 secs if speced into it. just but being a guardian, which absorbs any atk , so right off the bat , i feel thats 1 advantage we have over warriors. Warriors might be more sheer DPS i feel guardians are more well rounded..

Greatsword for guards has a nice aoe which has some range on it so thats nice , and has a pull feature which is amazing and anoying if your on the other end of it. Sword has mix of both range and close combat skills. Shield for guardian imo, is far better then a shield on a warrior , yes the bubble only prevents ranged , but thats just waht you need to close the gap , or u pop it just to knock them back and down.  The torch on the guardian is amazing too , mix of close range and medium range skills.. Feel thats what the guardian is , decent at close range and decent and short range. I mean warrior is either or. Long or close range. So in the sense you could kite a warrior at like 400-600 range and it couldn't hit you. If they using a bow or gun , move in close they swap you back off some and use the medium range we have.

While the low health is a factor , as i said earlier we have the free Aegis , ever 40 secs . and then you can click on it to give you another one . On top of that most our shouts have a Aegis on them as well , if we had a huge health pool on top of all these defensive spells , we would be unstoppable . Gotta remember , a thief pops in behind you to do their backstab , it gets absorbed by your aegis , thats a huge! huge! thing imo .... A warrior goes to smash you with its hammer that would knock you down , if your aegis is up , its gets absorbed. So I am ok with having a low health pool.. I mean little depressing to see my lvl 80 guard have like 18-19k health , and my necro has 26-28k health lol...

Edited by Krisa, 06 November 2012 - 11:21 PM.


#10 Galatea

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:27 PM

View PostSizmo, on 06 November 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

Other than an ele, i dont think you'll get the same kind of support from any other class.  You're welcome to conjure a build and link it here so we can review why it is or isn't a good choice, but i think you'll find it hard to come up with anything close.

Ele and guardian compete for the same role, with the difference being ele isn't huge on stability/protection uptime like a guardian is but they have better healing/condition removal and can do some decent dmg even when spec'd for healing.

I realize that some classes are better suited for certain roles than others. Is a little counter intuitive when we grow accustomed to Guardian/Paladins being the role of tanks and healers, when this game has none of these. But my point is, even if some classes do some things better than others, they all have the ability to customize traits, utilities, weapons and gear to fit ANY role. Guardian is left behind with no ranged option (The scepter orbs are flawed) and very vulnerable to getting beat down by mobs/players while other classes kite free kills and XP.

Is the Guardian too strong with heals so he shouldnt have range? Why not make the range skills be in oposition to heal skills? You cant never have everything in one place at once but it would be fair to have the option to choose how you want to build.

Edited by Galatea, 06 November 2012 - 11:42 PM.


#11 Galatea

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:37 PM

View PostKrisa, on 06 November 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

................

I agree, we have Aegis and special Virtues. I just think getting rid of the Holy trinity maybe wasn't such a great idea (opinion) the tank/healer&support/DPS gives you a role to play and without it balancing suffers.

Edited by Galatea, 06 November 2012 - 11:40 PM.


#12 baels

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:43 PM

Have you ever ran a meditation spike build with Scepter/Foc, Sword/Shield?....... You wouldn't be having any problems with Guardian survivability/DPS @ Range if you did..

I have both an 80 Warrior i've put hundreds of hours into, and my Guardian. The Guardian is FAR FAR better in sPvP and WvW. What does the warrior do in WvW? Throw out a couple of shouts and rifle snipe at a range? Meanwhile the Guardian can run down in front of an entire zerg on a gate/wall and drop a wall of reflection, blocking all their ranged damage for x seconds. A Guardian can, if traited correctly, give AoE quickness to it's entire zerg (we're talking like.. 50 people) twice in the duration of 30 seconds.

...and i've never lost to a warrior whilst on my guardian... ever. I don't recall losing to anyone in a 1v1 situation.. ever. The only time I'll die is when several peeps get on me..

MEANWHILE IN 100B GLASS CANNON LAND..........

#13 bashaman

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:54 PM

I am not going to discuss every point of your post, but my personal impression was that Warrior is probably the most 'complete' (as in, though tout and works as intended) profession in the game and Guardian is not that far from this status as well (it just might need some tweaks). As to Guardian's low health pool... a health pool is something like a 'buffer'. Guardian has some of the best damage mitigation abilities in the game with its plethora of blinds/blocks, so its health pool depletes slower in the first place, while its heals return proportionally more of the health. If the Guardian had the life pool of a warrior, it would be seriously broken. I mean, Guardians are really durable as of now, imagine them having double of the effective health pool ^^

#14 Reason on Cooldown

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:56 PM

I guess I can't speak to the PvP aspect, but I want to throw in a few points.

Guardian have a lot of defense that is being missed here.  On top up ranged attack blocking bubbles, and aegis as mentioned, mace #3 blocks an attack, and focus #5 blocks THREE attacks.  Also you can spec Aegis every 30sec.

I haven't investigated burning builds.  So I don't know how good you can make them, but you can also spec that blocking gives 100% chance of burning.  I always laugh in PvE when I'm running through an area and some uppity NPC lobs a projectile at me and instant lights on fire, while I run away without so much as a single HP lost. lol

Don't count out retaliation either.  I don't know how effective that can be either, but there are a lot of options to get retaliation and extend its duration.  I mostly run mace/focus, and #2 followed by #5 does an AE retaliation and blocks the next 3 attacks (with burning in my build).

But since I've not done any PvP since beta, I don't know if any of this is relevant to the OP's concerns.

#15 baels

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 12:02 AM

View PostReason on Cooldown, on 06 November 2012 - 11:56 PM, said:

I guess I can't speak to the PvP aspect, but I want to throw in a few points.

Guardian have a lot of defense that is being missed here.  On top up ranged attack blocking bubbles, and aegis as mentioned, mace #3 blocks an attack, and focus #5 blocks THREE attacks.  Also you can spec Aegis every 30sec.

I haven't investigated burning builds.  So I don't know how good you can make them, but you can also spec that blocking gives 100% chance of burning.  I always laugh in PvE when I'm running through an area and some uppity NPC lobs a projectile at me and instant lights on fire, while I run away without so much as a single HP lost. lol

Don't count out retaliation either.  I don't know how effective that can be either, but there are a lot of options to get retaliation and extend its duration.  I mostly run mace/focus, and #2 followed by #5 does an AE retaliation and blocks the next 3 attacks (with burning in my build).

But since I've not done any PvP since beta, I don't know if any of this is relevant to the OP's concerns.

Depending on what you're running, extended retal duration and burn on blocks are pretty much 2 of the best traits to take in PvP. You can have perma retaliation, and burn on block gives you some potent DPS if you're running more of a defensive shout based set up. Ran a set up with another friend Guardian and we played sPvP until we got bored. Undefeated for a good 15 matches, topping out on 200+ points per match. Untouchable.

#16 Reason on Cooldown

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 01:34 AM

View Postbaels, on 07 November 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

Depending on what you're running, extended retal duration and burn on blocks are pretty much 2 of the best traits to take in PvP. You can have perma retaliation, and burn on block gives you some potent DPS if you're running more of a defensive shout based set up. Ran a set up with another friend Guardian and we played sPvP until we got bored. Undefeated for a good 15 matches, topping out on 200+ points per match. Untouchable.

Good to know.

Like my Guardian always says:
"Go ahead.  HIT me!"

#17 JaxSilven

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 03:17 AM

I'm not going to respond to every single point you've made in the OP, because I'm sure everybody else will just point out how silly it all sounds. You ask a legitimate question in the title "How is the Guardian balanced compared to [the] Warrior" but then you go on to make baseless statements about the Guardian, which I can only assume are due to the feeling of being underpowered as a Guardian, or just general lack of knowledge.

Basic things:
  • All Guardian builds need around 18-20k hp, no more. This is to stop you having 18khp and then just going clerics amulet/jewel and sitting back drinking a nice cold beverage while you're un-killable with your 2.5k hp dodge roll heals. There are other reasons but that one you can easily see how silly it would be.
  • Scepter auto-attack is 1k+ dps, you will also notice that the scepter also has another 2 skills on the skill bar.
  • No other classes can support like a Guardian can.


#18 Brand

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 03:37 AM

I'd like to point out that warrior's often find themselves sacrificing quite a lot in terms of damage to be a more supportive healer (VS or IBS)
Basically what it comes down to is Guardians are better at using all buffs, keeping a group alive passively and controlling enemies.
Warriors are better at keeping 3 buffs (Swiftness, Fury, Might) up at all times, keeping the group alive proactively, and bringing some more damage.

As for the ranged weapon debate, both Staff and Scepter work to fill this roll, and they are oriented to support the team. This is because the ideal behind the guardian is that you are going to be supporting your team to kill the boss, rather than punching it in the face yourself.

Edited by Brand, 07 November 2012 - 03:38 AM.


#19 Galatea

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 03:59 AM

View PostJaxSilven, on 07 November 2012 - 03:17 AM, said:

I'm not going to respond to every single point you've made in the OP, because I'm sure everybody else will just point out how silly it all sounds. You ask a legitimate question in the title "How is the Guardian balanced compared to [the] Warrior" but then you go on to make baseless statements about the Guardian, which I can only assume are due to the feeling of being underpowered as a Guardian, or just general lack of knowledge.

Basic things:
  • All Guardian builds need around 18-20k hp, no more. This is to stop you having 18khp and then just going clerics amulet/jewel and sitting back drinking a nice cold beverage while you're un-killable with your 2.5k hp dodge roll heals. There are other reasons but that one you can easily see how silly it would be.
  • Scepter auto-attack is 1k+ dps, you will also notice that the scepter also has another 2 skills on the skill bar.
  • No other classes can support like a Guardian can.

Wow you do an excellent job sounding like a condescending douche bag, i didn't have anything against 12 year olds until you appeared.

If you take a minute of reading anything i wrote im talking my opinion for the sake of conversation, im just here for discussion and gaining knowledge.

You will also notice the scepter can be undermined by the awesome technique of turning the other way!

"No other classes can support like a Guardian can."

Posted Image

Edited by Galatea, 07 November 2012 - 04:01 AM.


#20 JaxSilven

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 01:32 PM

View PostGalatea, on 07 November 2012 - 03:59 AM, said:

Wow you do an excellent job sounding like a condescending douche bag, i didn't have anything against 12 year olds until you appeared.

If you take a minute of reading anything i wrote im talking my opinion for the sake of conversation, im just here for discussion and gaining knowledge.

You will also notice the scepter can be undermined by the awesome technique of turning the other way!

"No other classes can support like a Guardian can."

Posted Image

Actually no, that's not me being a condescending douche bag, that's me explaining you've made a stupid thread, because you're just too damn lazy to click on existing threads for information that answers your questions/thoughts.

Now, here's me being a condescending douche bag:

View PostGalatea, on 06 November 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

Ok first of all, i am completely mistified as how the balancing in this game works, specifically with these two classes, i made this threat to put all my toughts in one place and for the sake of discussion, (no flaming pls) Here goes :)

I- Defensive Ability
---------------------------------------------------

If you look at the following shard:

http://en.gw2skills.net/game/armor/


You'll noticed that both Warrior and Guardian have good armor but for some reason Guardian has the lowest health in the game while warrior has the highest.

I realize Guardian has "defensive spells" but if you notice our bubbles only block ranged attacks and the Warriors can heal aswell as Guardians and also have their own survival methods.
  • Here you said "...but for some reason Guardian has the lowest health in the game..."
    Then I gave you obvious reason for this: "...This is to stop you having 18khp and then just going clerics amulet/jewel and sitting back drinking a nice cold beverage while you're un-killable with your 2.5k hp dodge roll heals...."
  • "I realize Guardian has "defensive spells" but if you notice our bubbles only block ranged attacks and the Warriors can heal aswell as Guardians and also have their own survival methods."
    Paraphrased basically to say: 'Warriors heal while blocking and are thus superior to Guardian blocks except Guardians have other means of defence.'

Posted Image


Now you can see why I dismissed this outright, you just said some vague summary of a small minority of defensive skills for each class. But if you were actually wondering why Guardian skills can seem weaker in theory, it's because you're not taking boons and increased boon duration, or controls into consideration.

Quote

II- Damage Output
---------------------------------------------------

The warrior has straight up more damage output than the Guardian, they have a lot of skills to increase damage aswell as conditions. Guardians only have Burning witch only increases in duration.

The warrior can use Rifles and Bows, this gives them incredible long range damage not only that but Kiting potential aswell. So not only do they do more damage and have higher health, but by kiting they can kill a Guardian without recieving any or little damage in return.

Guardians have no effective long range weapon. The scepter is not only slow but easily avoidable and does very little damage. Guardians are the only class in the game that have to get close to their targets, while having the lowest base health and very low duration of stuns/dissables.

In PVP everyone mantains a heavy group formation so getting close is not often a good idea. Kitting becomes an even bigger problem when other classes not only have defence/health and range but survival methods aswell. ex. (rocket jump, slippery oil, knockbacks, knockdowns, slows etc etc.)
  • "The warrior has straight up more damage output than the Guardian, they have a lot of skills to increase damage aswell as conditions. Guardians only have Burning witch only increases in duration."
    Yes but that's only if you can stay alive that long, so yes running a DPS Guardian with 2 bunkers may not be as effective as a burst Warrior, but you can't deal damage when you're dead. So a Burst Guardian without a bunker will have more survivability and therefore deal more damage than a Warrior without a bunker
  • "The warrior can use Rifles and Bows, this gives them incredible long range damage not only that but Kiting potential aswell. So not only do they do more damage and have higher health, but by kiting they can kill a Guardian without recieving any or little damage in return."
    Phew, thank god long ranged doesn't increase your effectiveness in PvP, 1200 is as long as you'll ever need. It's not like you can control enemy movement with the scepter to make your melee more powerful or anything, nor is it like the scepter does 1k+ dps without smite.
  • "In PVP everyone mantains a heavy group formation so getting close is not often a good idea. Kitting becomes an even bigger problem when other classes not only have defence/health and range but survival methods aswell. ex. (rocket jump, slippery oil, knockbacks, knockdowns, slows etc etc.)"
    If you're a Guardian and you can't get close, you're running a bad build. All classes have control abilities, Guardian also has one of the best access to anti-control skills.

Quote

III- Other Arguments:
-------------------------------------------------------

-Guardians are supposed to be a support class:

I would normally accept this, except in this game nobody is "supposed to be anything". (no holy trinity means) Everyone can Support, (Engineers have turrets, Necros have pets, Mesmers have a lot of support skills etc), Everyone can "Tank", DPS, Use ranged weapons etc. this is actually one of the main strenghts of the game.

*Final Note:
This is my opinion from experience and what i have seen, i dont want this to become a flame thread, only smart discussions please.

Thanks :D
False, everything can specialize in this game, and is supposed to be able to specialize better than other classes in particular areas.
If it's your opinion try not to post this sort of thing "The scepter is not only slow but easily avoidable and does very little damage." when you honestly have no clue.
Well done, you've officially wasted my time, thank you very much. Hope this enlightens you so that you can make more educating and insightful posts in the future.

PS. I don't consider WvW PvP, so when I refer to PvP clearly I don't mean that.

#21 Shinimas

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 03:36 PM

Guardians are support.

Did you know that machinegunners are considered support too in RL warfare? Yeah.

#22 SpelignErrir

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:31 AM

View PostShinimas, on 07 November 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

Guardians are support.

Did you know that machinegunners are considered support too in RL warfare? Yeah.

Of course they are. They provide suppressive fire. What does that have to do with anything?

#23 Soryuju

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:40 AM

View PostSpelignErrir, on 19 November 2012 - 04:31 AM, said:

Of course they are. They provide suppressive fire. What does that have to do with anything?

Pretty sure the analogy was meant to get at the fact that "support" doesn't just imply the role of the medic, which is fairly relevant in discussing the Guardian's role in the metagame.  Guardians are capable of putting out significant sustained damage, comparable to or exceeding that of most other classes, but there's the important question of how much defensive/supportive power it's acceptable to sacrifice for that capability (since we are, at heart, a supportive class).  The Guardian community has yet to completely settle on an answer, and I doubt it will for a long time yet.

Edited by Soryuju, 19 November 2012 - 04:41 AM.


#24 JaxSilven

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 12:58 PM

View PostSoryuju, on 19 November 2012 - 04:40 AM, said:

Pretty sure the analogy was meant to get at the fact that "support" doesn't just imply the role of the medic, which is fairly relevant in discussing the Guardian's role in the metagame.  Guardians are capable of putting out significant sustained damage, comparable to or exceeding that of most other classes, but there's the important question of how much defensive/supportive power it's acceptable to sacrifice for that capability (since we are, at heart, a supportive class).  The Guardian community has yet to completely settle on an answer, and I doubt it will for a long time yet.

This is getting off the topic. The OP of the thread was something along the lines of "Why are all classes different?", which of course the answer is; because they're meant to be.

And the answer to your question is relevant to the situation, which is why so many people disagree on it. Like personally, if I'm ending up vs a necro a lot, I'll drop staff and some traits for GS and corresponding traits. But other people see this as a no, and rather have their ally help them out.

#25 BlasBlas

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 03:30 PM

As for opinion,

I'm not sure if the classes are balanced.  I think the Guardian is a more powerful profession in PvP.  We actually have more then one build that involves all of the following:  High burst damage, a lot of condition removal, buffing (self and group), constant healing in some form.  I mean a profession that can do all of that in a build and have multiple ways of building it is not very fair.

I believe warriors are more versatile.  Maybe, that is where the balance comes into play?

#26 Shinimas

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 08:10 AM

View PostSoryuju, on 19 November 2012 - 04:40 AM, said:

Pretty sure the analogy was meant to get at the fact that "support" doesn't just imply the role of the medic, which is fairly relevant in discussing the Guardian's role in the metagame.  Guardians are capable of putting out significant sustained damage, comparable to or exceeding that of most other classes, but there's the important question of how much defensive/supportive power it's acceptable to sacrifice for that capability (since we are, at heart, a supportive class).  The Guardian community has yet to completely settle on an answer, and I doubt it will for a long time yet.

Indeed.

Guardians can put down some serious pressure. unfortunately, they're too easy to escape, because somebody thought that having a melee centric class with no snares is a good idea. Well, luckily, this game is about point control, so we don't need to chase people much.

#27 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 06:36 PM

Guardian still needs some serious nerfs, especially bunker guards. Every single tPVP team needs a bunker guard because they are just that good. And that isn't good for the game in the long term.

#28 chado2011

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 05:32 PM

If being kited is what bothers you, slot gap-closing skills??

I've played only ele so far, until rolling a guardian 3 days ago. All I can say is, my god. I've never spent so much time topping "charts" in sPvP. I have to agree that a nerf to the class would not be at all suprising.

#29 SpelignErrir

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 06:21 PM

Guardian is meant to last. Health is only useful in the short term. With a lower health pool and much higher defenses, healing, of which Guardians have the most numerous and strongest of, is far more effective.

An 8k heal on a guardian with 11k hp and 3200 armor is much more significant than an 8k heal on a warrior with 20k hp and 2200 armor.

#30 Shinimas

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 11:05 PM

View Postchado2011, on 23 November 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

If being kited is what bothers you, slot gap-closing skills??

I've played only ele so far, until rolling a guardian 3 days ago. All I can say is, my god. I've never spent so much time topping "charts" in sPvP. I have to agree that a nerf to the class would not be at all suprising.

JI and Flashing Blade won't help much against a perma-Swiftness target.




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