64 replies to this topic

[WOLFBAIN]

In Guild Wars, there was an ancient structure within the Shiverpeaks which has an unknown origin. The Ebon Vanguard are the only ones know to of occupied the massive structure after The Searing and the Norn avoid the structure for unknown reasons. However, The Jotun a proud ancient race that had technology and magic which predate the Six Human Gods and bloodstones.

Thruln the Lost (Last Jotun Storyteller) says

- "My jotun ancestors formed kingdoms. Giants, like the jotun and the norn, grew powerful. The chaos was tamed - until now." - Maybe the Jotun built Eye of the North as their kingdom.


- "the age of Giants was a time when all the worlds giants ruled Tyria. Your people, my people, we had magic like you will never know." - within the Eye of the North there was a sacred whirlpool which could foresee the future. This could of been made by the Jotuns magic.  


The Jotun were known for building Grand enchanted monuments within the Shiverpeaks.

Eye of the North had a zone within it called "Hall of Monuments"

The Norn may of avoided the structure due to respect. Thruln says "It was a time when the norn and the jotun were not like you see us today. Our kingdoms were the most advance in the entire world. We protected and defended other races." This clearly states that the Norn and Jotun worked together before the Jotun collapsed. This is could be the reason to the Norn avoiding the Eye of the North.

Hence, the Jotun are most likely the ones who build the Eye of the North.



If there's any mistakes please say.

Edited by WOLFBAIN, 07 November 2012 - 07:39 AM.

[Al Shamari]

While it's possible, it's still speculation. In an article, there is a statement saying that their stone monuments can still be found through the Far Shiverpeaks. Has anyone seen one of these monuments, or what may be one of these monuments? I would like to compare the architecture.

[Valkaire]

Al Shamari, on 07 November 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

While it's possible, it's still speculation. In an article, there is a statement saying that their stone monuments can still be found through the Far Shiverpeaks. Has anyone seen one of these monuments, or what may be one of these monuments? I would like to compare the architecture.

I'd take an actual screenshot for you but I can't atm So far that's all I've seen of past Jotun civilization (barring the camp walls that you see here and there). I've seen actual stones like in that art around dredgehaunt cliffs.

I think it very well could be the Jotun, even suspected it myself, but I don't think the architecture/ symbols of their civilization fit well with the HoM. For all we know it may as well have been the Seers since no one really knows where exactly they lived or what exactly their civilization looked like.

Quote

Seer ruins exist here and there, but the average adventurer would not be able to tell them apart from regular ancient ruins, not realizing the value of what they have found.

And for those who don't know:

Outside look of the HoM


(I wish I could go take some screens of the jotun camps/walls to go along with that but I can't, sadly >.<)

Edited by Valkaire, 07 November 2012 - 08:27 AM.

[WOLFBAIN]

ah i see what the monuments are meant to look like, clearly the EotN was not a monument. However, what of the kingdom? the Jotun must of had an area for where the Giant Kings gathered.

Edited by WOLFBAIN, 07 November 2012 - 09:22 AM.

[BuddhaKeks]

Personally I think the Eye was build by the seers, as it was said in an interview if I remember correctly, that we may encounter ruins of their civilization without even noticing they were build by the seers. However this is more of a gut feeling than anything.

[Red J]

Well, we know that the last time dragons awoke, there were 5 races fighting against them- Jotun, Dwarves, Seers, Mursaat and Forgotten. What if the Eye of the North was built by those races to fight against Jormag? Kind of like Fort Trinity, a combination of said races' architectural styles.

Edited by Red J, 07 November 2012 - 04:26 PM.

[Flaming_Foxx]

Red J, on 07 November 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:

Well, we know that the last time dragons awoke, there were 5 races fighting against them- Jotun, Dwarves, Seers, Mursaat and Forgotten. What if the Eye of the North was built by those races to fight against Jormag? Kind of like Fort Trinity, a combination of said races' architectural styles.

Well it would be 4 races, since the Mursaat supposedly hit away and were warring with the Seers and what not.
But I could get behind this theory.

Although, I'm still of the mind that it is purely a Seer structure, but that's because I'm set in my beliefs xD.

[Red J]

Flaming_Foxx, on 07 November 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:

Well it would be 4 races, since the Mursaat supposedly hit away and were warring with the Seers and what not.
But I could get behind this theory.

Although, I'm still of the mind that it is purely a Seer structure, but that's because I'm set in my beliefs xD.

The dialogue in Durmand Priory suggests that the five ancient races were allies during the ED activity. The war between mursaat and seers must have happened some time after the Elder Dragons were put to sleep. Probably during the same time Jotun civilization started to decline.

I have doubts about EotN being purely Seer structure. It's just too far north in territory which was supposed to be Jotun kingdom. If I were to guess where we'd find ruins of Seer civilisation, I'd say Moladune, due to fact that the Seer we meet in GW1 lived in a cave not far from the supposed location of the lost city (somwhere in present day Deldrimor front).

Edited by Red J, 07 November 2012 - 09:17 PM.

[Flaming_Foxx]

Red J, on 07 November 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

The dialogue in Durmand Priory suggests that the five ancient races were allies during the ED activity. The war between mursaat and seers must have happened some time after the Elder Dragons were put to sleep. Probably during the same time Jotun civilization started to decline.

I have doubts about EotN being purely Seer structure. It's just too far north in territory which was supposed to be Jotun kingdom. If I were to guess where we'd find ruins of Seer civilisation, I'd say Moladune, due to fact that the Seer we meet in GW1 lived in a cave not far from the supposed location of the lost city (somwhere in present day Deldrimor front).

There were also two Seers on the Fire Islands....
It was just in Moladune because that was where the Mursaat were and it needed to infuse us.

[Red J]

I am sure that the one found on Ring of Fire later on in the story is the same one that we met in Shiverpeaks. Also, It was our characters who sought it out, not the other way around. And the reason Mursaat were in Shiverpeaks in the first place was because they were following the Shining Blade.

And there is still the problem with EotN standing deep in Jotun territory.

[Al Shamari]

Red J, on 07 November 2012 - 09:33 PM, said:

I am sure that the one found on Ring of Fire later on in the story is the same one that we met in Shiverpeaks. Also, It was our characters who sought it out, not the other way around. And the reason Mursaat were in Shiverpeaks in the first place was because they were following the Shining Blade.

And there is still the problem with EotN standing deep in Jotun territory.

What about the Isles of Janthir? They are located just West of the Far Shiverpeaks and while there are hardly any details, they are presumed to have a lot to do with the White Mantle, the Seers and the Mursaat.

[Red J]

Al Shamari, on 07 November 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

What about the Isles of Janthir? They are located just West of the Far Shiverpeaks and while there are hardly any details, they are presumed to have a lot to do with the White Mantle, the Seers and the Mursaat.

They are associated with White Mantle and Mursaat. The isles were said to be inhabited by people gifted with true sight and the place from where Saul D'Alessio got the Eye of Janthir. They have nothing to do with Seers.

[Kurosov]

I always suspected it was the seers simply because there is no real reference as to WHY other than the on in gw1 apparently expecting us they are "seers" yet we have this big mysterious saying pool just lying around.

[Mockingjay74]

Al Shamari, on 07 November 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

What about the Isles of Janthir? They are located just West of the Far Shiverpeaks and while there are hardly any details, they are presumed to have a lot to do with the White Mantle, the Seers and the Mursaat.

I don't think that the Isles of Janthir have anything to do with the Eye of the North for the reasons Red mentioned. However it did make me wonder about the Utopia expansion. If I remember right, Utopia was supposed to touch on time and such, and it was even further north than where the Eye of the North is. Utopia was going to happen as its own thing, but was then changed into Eye of the North. Maybe lore and storyline that was going to be part of Utopia was purposefully left out after they changed their plans to EOTN to preserve some mysteriousness.

Red J, on 07 November 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

They are associated with White Mantle and Mursaat. The isles were said to be inhabited by people gifted with true sight and the place from where Saul D'Alessio got the Eye of Janthir. They have nothing to do with Seers.

Despite my last quote, true sight seems like it would match the Eye of the North. The Scrying Pool is used to see into the past and even the future, correct? Even though the Seers name alone would suggest they had something to do with the EOTN, I wouldn't entirely rule out the possibility that the Mursaat were involved. Unless there's actual lore saying the Mursaat aren't. I will admit the architecture of the EOTN seems different from the Mursaat architecture I saw a long time ago. Could anyone possibly dig up some stereotypical Mursaat stuff for me to look at?

When was the EOTN built? Just a really, really long time ago, or do we have a time?

Spoiler

I guess my thought process here is that maybe the Mursaat, Seers, Jotun, forgotten and dwarves built the EOTN when they were fighting the ED's together. Perhaps as a way to look further into the past to see what was done the last time the ED's woke up. Or as a way that future generations could look into the past to see how the ED's were defeated previously.

[Valkaire]

I can't remember the exact quote but I'm fairly sure not even Ogden and the rest of the dwarves knew how the HoM came to be (from one of the first cinematics from EotN), correct me if I'm wrong. This makes me think that it's a structure that predates even those 5 races.... Or maybe there was a 6th race. It seems like the durmand priory quote "5 against 6, that's not fair" or w/e could also maybe hint to a 6th race that was opposed to the ED?

Edited by Valkaire, 08 November 2012 - 05:46 AM.

[draxynnic]

Valk: The dwarves seemed to have locked away their knowledge of that time into the Tome of Rubicon and then forgotten it, possibly deliberately. Ogden not recognising it it doesn't mean it wasn't made at that time.

Red J, on 07 November 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:

Well, we know that the last time dragons awoke, there were 5 races fighting against them- Jotun, Dwarves, Seers, Mursaat and Forgotten. What if the Eye of the North was built by those races to fight against Jormag? Kind of like Fort Trinity, a combination of said races' architectural styles.

The impression I get is that the ancient races survived the last draconic awakening by hiding rather than fighting (in addition to the kodan, according to some interpretations of their legends, just that the other races didn't know of them either). The mursaat jumped into another dimension, the seers hid non-draconic magic away in the precursor to the Bloodstones, the forgotten "recruited" a dragon champion that was essentially made specifically to sniff them out and had said champion hide them instead. That said, the Eye does seem to have a tendency to spy on the dragons, so it's possible that the Eye was more of a hidden listening post than an offensive fortress.

And if Jormag realised what it was afterwards - kinda like Kralkatorrik realising that Glint had betrayed him - that would explain why it got smashed up.

Red J, on 07 November 2012 - 09:33 PM, said:

I am sure that the one found on Ring of Fire later on in the story is the same one that we met in Shiverpeaks. Also, It was our characters who sought it out, not the other way around. And the reason Mursaat were in Shiverpeaks in the first place was because they were following the Shining Blade.

And there is still the problem with EotN standing deep in Jotun territory.

The Seer also mentions how the PCs are the ones "the dragon Glint spoke of", so it could have traveled there specifically to meet the PCs. That said, Moladune being a seer city is still a strong possibility, but it's not hard to find alternate explanations for the seer's presence.

[Red J]

Mockingjay74, on 08 November 2012 - 03:15 AM, said:

I don't think that the Isles of Janthir have anything to do with the Eye of the North for the reasons Red mentioned. However it did make me wonder about the Utopia expansion. If I remember right, Utopia was supposed to touch on time and such, and it was even further north than where the Eye of the North is. Utopia was going to happen as its own thing, but was then changed into Eye of the North. Maybe lore and storyline that was going to be part of Utopia was purposefully left out after they changed their plans to EOTN to preserve some mysteriousness.

I've always thought that, rather than separate continent, the utopia setting was supposed to take place up there around the isles of janthir. The desolate terrain of the large island seems to fit the concept art of "the Hub of Time" mechanical city. The forest around the bay fits the jungle theme on the other hand.

Mockingjay74, on 08 November 2012 - 03:15 AM, said:

When was the EOTN built? Just a really, really long time ago, or do we have a time?

Spoiler

I guess my thought process here is that maybe the Mursaat, Seers, Jotun, forgotten and dwarves built the EOTN when they were fighting the ED's together. Perhaps as a way to look further into the past to see what was done the last time the ED's woke up. Or as a way that future generations could look into the past to see how the ED's were defeated previously.

We don't really know when it was built- only that it is ancient.

The thing about scrying pool made me think. In GW1, we used it to search it for The Great Destroyer, right? And we've seen the large cavern in which Primordus was sleeping.

What if the pool was used to track the movement of Elder Dragons and their champions? With scrying pool, we could've seen where the ED are, where they were, and even where they would hit next. That would fit my theory of EotN being built by five ancient races to fight the ED.

draxynnic, on 08 November 2012 - 05:47 AM, said:

The impression I get is that the ancient races survived the last draconic awakening by hiding rather than fighting (in addition to the kodan, according to some interpretations of their legends, just that the other races didn't know of them either). The mursaat jumped into another dimension, the seers hid non-draconic magic away in the precursor to the Bloodstones, the forgotten "recruited" a dragon champion that was essentially made specifically to sniff them out and had said champion hide them instead. That said, the Eye does seem to have a tendency to spy on the dragons, so it's possible that the Eye was more of a hidden listening post than an offensive fortress.

That may be possible. However, from the NPC dialogues, I got an impression that the ancient races actually fought them and used some ancient spell to put them back to sleep. Where it is stated that seers created proto-bloodstones? I've thought the only thing we know is that magic was locked into bloodstones only after the coming of the Six gods.

Edited by Red J, 08 November 2012 - 06:19 AM.

[Mockingjay74]

Valkaire, on 08 November 2012 - 05:43 AM, said:

I can't remember the exact quote but I'm fairly sure not even Ogden and the rest of the dwarves knew how the HoM came to be (from one of the first cinematics from EotN), correct me if I'm wrong. This makes me think that it's a structure that predates even those 5 races.... Or maybe there was a 6th race. It seems like the durmand priory quote "5 against 6, that's not fair" or w/e could also maybe hint to a 6th race that was opposed to the ED?

I'd love to run with that idea, and maybe it's possible. Except with the near-confirmation of a sixth ED, it'd be nearly impossible for that "six" to mean the races. Except for the fact that the DP might not know about the sixth ED because the Order of Whispers controls the information about it. Or, maybe the sixth ED is newer than we imagined and wasn't part of the 5v6 fight.

Red J, on 08 November 2012 - 06:12 AM, said:

I've always thought that, rather than separate continent, the utopia setting was supposed to take place up there around the isles of janthir. The desolate terrain of the large island seems to fit the concept art of "the Hub of Time" mechanical city. The forest around the bay fits the jungle theme on the other hand.

I'm not sure if Utopia was going to be near Janthir, although it's entirely possible. Although I'm having trouble forming a connection between the Isles and the Eye.

[Alexwentworth]

I'm inclined to think that the Eye, judging purely from its appearance, is a primarily Mursaat creation. The rough geometric style shares quite a bit with what we see in the tarnished coast, other unconfirmed Mursaat ruins. That being said, the style is distinctly more... alpine i suppose. Perhaps here we see evidence of another cultural group within a single race. (Similar to the differences between Orrian and Krytan architecture)

Then again, if the whole multiple culture idea comes to be true, who am i to assume it is not another permutation of Jotun, Seer, forgotten, or even Dwarven culture? Just because they all look the same in the time of GW2 doesn't mean that there were not a variety of styles and cultures in the distant past. We see humans becoming amalgamated, so why not the other, ancient races?

[draxynnic]

Red J, on 08 November 2012 - 06:12 AM, said:

That may be possible. However, from the NPC dialogues, I got an impression that the ancient races actually fought them and used some ancient spell to put them back to sleep. Where it is stated that seers created proto-bloodstones? I've thought the only thing we know is that magic was locked into bloodstones only after the coming of the Six gods.

The explorable paths in the Arah dungeon are about looking into the history of the old races (apart from the dwarves) - the seer one apparently (haven't had the chance to try it myself) reveals that the seers initially made the stone that was broken in order to form the Bloodstones as a repository and hiding place for magic that hadn't already been claimed by the dragons.

From what we now know of the dragons, it's possible that this also caused them to sleep - when they could no longer detect magic to consume, they went into hibernation. That's hypothesising on my part, though.

[Konig Des Todes]

Red J, on 07 November 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:

Well, we know that the last time dragons awoke, there were 5 races fighting against them- Jotun, Dwarves, Seers, Mursaat and Forgotten. What if the Eye of the North was built by those races to fight against Jormag? Kind of like Fort Trinity, a combination of said races' architectural styles.

This has actually been my line of thought for a long while. The issue is that the Eye of the North doesn't really fit jotun, dwarf, or forgotten architecture, nor does it fit known mursaat structures from the Ring of Fire. This leaves seers of those five races, however I suspect that they're the creators of those crystalline/ice structures seen in the Far Shiverpeak dungeons (there are statues which are fairly seer-looking in three such dungeons, and those crystalline structures hold an etheric face which could be made to be a seer's or a jotun's).

However, it should be noted that those five races are the sentient survivors, not just those who fought against the Elder Dragons. We know of at least one other race from that time period: the Giganticus Lupicus. Though they're only outright tied to the Crystal Desert at the moment (and that's just theoretical on NPCs' standpoint).

Just for clarity, the crystalline structures I refer to are these:

Spoiler

And the statues I refer to:

Spoiler

Red J, on 07 November 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

They are associated with White Mantle and Mursaat. The isles were said to be inhabited by people gifted with true sight and the place from where Saul D'Alessio got the Eye of Janthir. They have nothing to do with Seers.

And it may have nothing to do with mursaat. We don't know who inhabited it, per say.

Alexwentworth, on 08 November 2012 - 10:32 PM, said:

I'm inclined to think that the Eye, judging purely from its appearance, is a primarily Mursaat creation. The rough geometric style shares quite a bit with what we see in the tarnished coast, other unconfirmed Mursaat ruins.

Both the Eye of the North and the Tarnished Coast ruins do not match known mursaat structures. At all.

And furthermore, the mursaat haven't been around since 10,000 BE until recently before Saul found them, so any structures they had made themselves before returning would likely have been long gone (unlike the other races' since they were around to maintain them within the past 11,000 years, though many would definitely be in ruin).

When one looks at all the evidence to whether or not the TC ruins are mursaat in nature, there's actually fairly little strong evidence for such a claim, given 3 facts:
1) We don't know which "forest"/"jungle" Saul traveled to.
2) As said, the TC ruins don't match the only confirmed mursaat structure style, seen primarily on the Ring of Fire.
3) We don't know if the city which Saul discovered was mursaat in nature in the first place, given the new knowledge on them having recently returned (knowledge coming from Arah explorable). Though how recent "recently" is would be rather questionable in of itself.

[Alexwentworth]

Fair enough, but can we be sure what we see in the ring of fire represent "typical" Mursaat Architecture? It could just as well be a very specific design for a very specific purpose. Or perhaps because the structures in the Ring of Fire are so modern, they represent a new movement within Mursaat Architecture.

In short, the fact that they don't match the ROF is not that significant. Maybe.

Also, what do we know of Forgotten Architecture? Have there been any concrete examples? For the Crystal desert, i thought it was all stuff from the proto-Margonites and Turai's expedition.

[Konig Des Todes]

No, we can't really be sure, outside the fact that it's used for everything mursaat-made we see, from their fortresses to their teleporters to the jade statues - and its even transferred over to White Mantle structures, specifically the doorway at the Temple of the Unseen.

However, there is nothing to even indicate that it is not "typical" mursaat architecture, let alone prove it's not.

And for the forgotten structures, we have the Lair of the Forgotten, housing only forgotten structures. Specifically only 2 that's seen throughout the Crystal Desert - the pillars, and the "tunnel" like structures that can't be entered. And within the latter are heiroglyphs, also seen on the teleporters in the Crystal Desert as well as the resurrection shrines there, and both those heiroglyphs and the "ascension runes" on the pillars are seen together in the Augury Rock mission, at where the Vision Crystal ends up after completing Elona Reach.

[Sundreamer]

this got me interested...what happened to the jotun?

[Al Shamari]

Sundreamer, on 10 November 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

this got me interested...what happened to the jotun?

They probably suffered a similar fate as say Rapa Nui, in the fact that they just, collapsed.

Edited by Al Shamari, 01 December 2012 - 08:51 AM.

[Red J]

Sundreamer, on 10 November 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

this got me interested...what happened to the jotun?

This is quite off topic, but from what we know, Jotun became increasingly xenophobic after being stripped off of their old magic- even against other jotun tribes. Eventually, due to inbreeding and general cultural decline, they ended up as primitive ugly brutes we see scattered throughout Shiverpeaks.

[Konig Des Todes]

Not xenophobic - prideful. Wanting to be the leaders, they fell into infighting and civil wars. Their magic users and lorekeepers were the first to fall, thus destroying their culture in one nice sweep, and then time and continued tribal warfare and selective breeding furthered their fall.

[draxynnic]

Alexwentworth does have a point - mursaat architecture in Prophecies might be modern architecture, or it might be military architecture. However, that just means it can't be entirely ruled out as a possibility.

To be honest, the thing that might really best serve to pin down who likely made it is the bird of prey motif on the tower - they look like a solid piece of the structure, so that indicates that at least one of the races involved must have a liking for bird motifs. The complication here is that at first glance, the races that are most easily associated with such motifs are modern ones, but for identifying the makers, we should look for ruins of ancient races that contain that motif, or think about which of them might use it.

[Konig Des Todes]

The Tarnished Coast ruins do have bird motifs scattered here and there (easiest to find on bridges), but its of a different style of the Eye of the North one and, furthermore, that's the only similarity between the Eye of the North and the TC ruins.

[Mockingjay74]

Konig Des Todes, on 11 November 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

The Tarnished Coast ruins do have bird motifs scattered here and there (easiest to find on bridges), but its of a different style of the Eye of the North one and, furthermore, that's the only similarity between the Eye of the North and the TC ruins.

I'm applying the same "principle" from a few posts up... what is there to say that the TC ruins and the Eye of the North were made by the same people for different purposes? Perhaps the Eye of the North was created to be used as a [weapon/place to house the Scrying Pool/etc], while the ruins in the Tarnished Coast were originally built to be used however they were supposed to be used. Perhaps the Eye of the North was created by the mursaat in addition to other races? If the EOTN was created at some point in time related to the last time that the dragons were fought, that would mean that the five races had the same overarching goal and could've worked together. I thought that was part of the information from the DP, that they actually did work together...

Goodness my post is messy.