64 replies to this topic

[Dasryn]

i just want to clear up something:

"Jotun" is pronounced "Yo-Ton"

NPCs in GW2 are clearly not in with their Norse pronunciations.

[draxynnic]

Mockingjay74, on 11 November 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

I'm applying the same "principle" from a few posts up... what is there to say that the TC ruins and the Eye of the North were made by the same people for different purposes? Perhaps the Eye of the North was created to be used as a [weapon/place to house the Scrying Pool/etc], while the ruins in the Tarnished Coast were originally built to be used however they were supposed to be used. Perhaps the Eye of the North was created by the mursaat in addition to other races? If the EOTN was created at some point in time related to the last time that the dragons were fought, that would mean that the five races had the same overarching goal and could've worked together. I thought that was part of the information from the DP, that they actually did work together...

Goodness my post is messy.

That's something I was considering myself - the TC ruins might have been the regular cities of the eagle-head-motif people, while the Eye of the North might have been custom-built as a fortress. Furthermore, the motif just means they were involved - it could have been added to another race's architectural style. Come to think on it, knowing what we now know, I think I'm willing to bet that the jotun were at least involved - the Eye's dimensions appear to have been built with the jotun in mind and the idea of a Hall of Monuments would be right up their alley.

However, I think we can reasonably safely say the TC ruins were not built by jotun. Now, it's possible that the ancient jotun seers did take the eagle - as a creature that sees far - as their motif, but if that wasn't the case, we're probably looking at a collaboration.

[Mockingjay74]

draxynnic, on 11 November 2012 - 11:55 PM, said:

That's something I was considering myself - the TC ruins might have been the regular cities of the eagle-head-motif people, while the Eye of the North might have been custom-built as a fortress. Furthermore, the motif just means they were involved - it could have been added to another race's architectural style. Come to think on it, knowing what we now know, I think I'm willing to bet that the jotun were at least involved - the Eye's dimensions appear to have been built with the jotun in mind and the idea of a Hall of Monuments would be right up their alley.

However, I think we can reasonably safely say the TC ruins were not built by jotun. Now, it's possible that the ancient jotun seers did take the eagle - as a creature that sees far - as their motif, but if that wasn't the case, we're probably looking at a collaboration.

That's sort of what I was thinking, too. The EOTN is blocky enough where I could see parts being built at one point in time, and then added to later on for various situations. I definitely think the Jotun were involved for the same reasoning, but I wonder about the scrying pool. I know the Jotun at least used to be fairly magical (pre-civil war and trouble), but would they use a magical "thing" like a scrying pool? Or is the scrying pool another feature of the EOTN that was contributed by another race, similar to the different features of the Lion's Arch statue?

I agree, I think the Jotun are too set in the Shiverpeaks to have traveled that far. What races are known to have occupied the Tarnished Coast area?

Rickter, on 11 November 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

i just want to clear up something:

"Jotun" is pronounced "Yo-Ton"

NPCs in GW2 are clearly not in with their Norse pronunciations.

I have to point out, GW2 is a fantasy game and it's possible that that is just how the designers or directors wanted "Jotun to be pronounced."

Edited by Mockingjay74, 12 November 2012 - 12:28 AM.

[chrisbdrake]

Rickter, on 11 November 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

i just want to clear up something:

"Jotun" is pronounced "Yo-Ton"

NPCs in GW2 are clearly not in with their Norse pronunciations.

Their is no "norse" in TYria.  But hey, don't let facts stop you.

[Konig Des Todes]

Rickter, on 11 November 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

i just want to clear up something:

"Jotun" is pronounced "Yo-Ton"

NPCs in GW2 are clearly not in with their Norse pronunciations.

I just want to clear something up:

"Jötunn" is pronounced "yo-ton"

Jotun, as ArenaNet dictates for the game, is pronounced "JŌ-tun"

Same as why Seraph is not pronounced the same in GW2 as you would pronounced seraph in reality. It's ArenaNet's game and lore, so they can have pronunciations change to suit their game's dialect however they want.

draxynnic, on 11 November 2012 - 11:55 PM, said:

Come to think on it, knowing what we now know, I think I'm willing to bet that the jotun were at least involved - the Eye's dimensions appear to have been built with the jotun in mind and the idea of a Hall of Monuments would be right up their alley.

There were more ancient races besides jotun that were large.

Ogres and Giganticus Lupicus among them.

Mockingjay74, on 12 November 2012 - 12:25 AM, said:

I agree, I think the Jotun are too set in the Shiverpeaks to have traveled that far. What races are known to have occupied the Tarnished Coast area?

Before asura? Humans. Specifically Orrians and Krytans, with Krytans being the latter with lesser influence.

[draxynnic]

It's possible that "yo-ton" might actually be the "correct" pronunciation for Tyrian jotun too, but after centuries of degradation it's drifted. IIRC, conversion of a soft to a hard j is one of the known tendencies in language drift.

[Mockingjay74]

I wonder if the Giganticus Lupicus were very civilized. If they were, it could be possible that the EOTN is part their creation, but I kind of have a gut feeling that they weren't advanced enough to build such a huge building like the EOTN. I could definitely see Jotun building it alone or in addition to other civilizations.

Konig Des Todes, on 13 November 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

Before asura? Humans. Specifically Orrians and Krytans, with Krytans being the latter with lesser influence.

I kind of doubt that the asura had anything to do with eagle-shaped monifs, so that kind of makes the theory of a connection between the TC ruins and the EOTN. Unless it's super old and the connection is a race/civilization that visited the Tarnished Coast, build buildings, then left, that we don't currently know visited the region.

[Konig Des Todes]

A durmand priory scholar mentions Giganticus Lupicus civilizations in the Crystal Desert, though that makes little sense unless there was a Crystal Desert while there was a Crystal Sea (actually, such a possibility would clear up quite a few oddities in lore).

The issue with any possible GL society is that our only physical evidence might have been altered by the gods - otherwise, based on the one seen in game, I'd say they were fairly advanced, as the thing's armor, while basic, also had some form of technological or magitech look to it.

[draxynnic]

I've actually been getting a bit of an impression that there was such - there was a Crystal Sea, but the shores were still arid. Or it could simply be that the Crystal Desert/Crystal Sea lore is still relatively little known even to the Priory, or said Priory member says Crystal Desert rather than Crystal Sea because that avoids having to explain the history.

[Konig Des Todes]

He says that bit only to Priory members and asks the PC for their opinion on the thesis and research (of course, no real opinion is given due to "no time" iirc - the thesis itself is said to be relating multiple civilizations in the CD, including the GL's), so I would presume there's an assumed at least basic knowledge that the Crystal Desert was once a sea.

But even if it were only to avoid explaining the history, that wouldn't explain how the Giganticus Lupicus who by all appearances did not appear aquatic or amphibious would have a civilization in the middle of a sea.

[Steadfast Gao Shun]

The Eye is impressive still, even after all these years.

(Unfortunately, Gwen's garden is gone... )

I'm pretty sure people found it already, but look at these markings. They remind me of RL-Aztec-esque sort of carvings. Anyone have any idea what race might've made these? They look suspiciously familiar, too - almost as if I've seen them somewhere (I want to say Tomb of Primeval Kings)...



It looks to me as if it was constructed by a single faction, or at least, a single master architect overseeing everything. (Spoilers have a lot of pictures)

Spoiler

A closer look...



These markings don't resemble anything I know of in the game so far, so your guess is as good as mine in terms of who built these things. You see this motif on the archway towards the entrance as well. Though these doors are still pretty large...





I can conclude that the aesthetics style is very consistent throughout the structure, but beyond that, I can't tell what else is going on.



The glyphs here remind me of the writings of the Forgotten, but are pretty distinctive. The eye and the eagle-like things hanging off of the side reminds me of the Mursaat, but I'm biased since I see Mursaat in everything.




Then there seems to be a pattern but unfortunately, the camera doesn't zoom that far, and I can't see what it is.

Edited by Steadfast Gao Shun, 29 November 2012 - 07:37 AM.

[Flaming_Foxx]

Pattern almost looks like an eye.... Mursa.. Oh wait, someone might get annoyed if I try and suggest that

[Dasryn]

where exactly is the eye of the north in GW2?  

and ive got a lore question:  has it ever been stated why the Norn actively avoid the eye of the north?  it appears to be the perfect fortress for them to band together and rebuild.

[Flaming_Foxx]

Rickter, on 01 December 2012 - 04:29 AM, said:

where exactly is the eye of the north in GW2?  

and ive got a lore question:  has it ever been stated why the Norn actively avoid the eye of the north?  it appears to be the perfect fortress for them to band together and rebuild.

I think it's just because they find it unsettling and ominous - I wouldn't say they have some kind of secret knowledge or spidy-sense about it though because there were Norn NPC's in the EoTN in GW1

In GW2 it is all the way up in the Far Shiverpeaks (same place as in GW1, but I assume you meant how do you get there?) - only accessible to those who had a GW1 account and linked it - upon character creation we get a Portal Stone to the Hall of Monuments.

[Dasryn]

Flaming_Foxx, on 01 December 2012 - 04:37 AM, said:

I think it's just because they find it unsettling and ominous - I wouldn't say they have some kind of secret knowledge or spidy-sense about it though because there were Norn NPC's in the EoTN in GW1

In GW2 it is all the way up in the Far Shiverpeaks (same place as in GW1, but I assume you meant how do you get there?) - only accessible to those who had a GW1 account and linked it - upon character creation we get a Portal Stone to the Hall of Monuments.

oh wow, so this amazing set piece of GW lore is not accessible to players that do not have a linked GW1 account?  thats like a good, very good portion of the current player base.  

thats actually quite disappointing. . . i think something like this would be too iconic to exclude to a significant percentage of the playerbase.

[draxynnic]

It was simply regarded as taboo - and from observation, it seemed that taboo was lifted when humans proved to be able to live there perfectly safely (maybe the Eye used to have active defences that deteriorated... or were deliberately set to drop when the dragons started awakening so the races around at the time could make use of it). It's not just the norn - it was apparently abandoned when the Ebon Vanguard arrived, but after they did it suddenly became valuable real estate to the centaurs as well.

When it comes to being a stronghold for resisting Jormag... given that it's trashed in GW2, it's possible that it was, but unsuccessfully.

With regards to availability - the Eye is linked to the old characters but not to old ones, so it makes sense it's not available to new players... especially since it appears to have been so thoroughly trashed that it's probably not useful any more.

[Dasryn]

draxynnic, on 01 December 2012 - 04:42 AM, said:

the Eye is linked to the old characters but not to old ones,

im sorry, you lost me here. . . what?

[Konig Des Todes]

@Drax: I don't think the centaurs were interested in the Eye of the North. Even before the events of EN, the centaurs had a hatred for humans. I wouldn't doubt that if the Ebon Vanguard decided to make camp in Mount Doom and live there relatively comfortably, that the centaurs would go after them even there if it was close enough to their own lands.

@Rickter: Drax meant that if you were to buy Guild Wars even now, you'll be able to link your GW2 account to your brand spankin new GW1 account, and thus get access to the Hall of Monuments/Eye of the North in GW2 (so long as you buy 1 campaign and the expansion, of course).

[Mockingjay74]

Rickter, on 01 December 2012 - 04:29 AM, said:

where exactly is the eye of the north in GW2?  

and ive got a lore question:  has it ever been stated why the Norn actively avoid the eye of the north?  it appears to be the perfect fortress for them to band together and rebuild.

Norn are extremely independent, and Hoelbrak is the epitome of their teamwork and collaboration. Characteristically, it wouldn't make sense for the norn to want to band together. I don't know why the norn need to rebuild, as they have always been independent and they've never really been the type to work together.

Rickter, on 01 December 2012 - 04:40 AM, said:

oh wow, so this amazing set piece of GW lore is not accessible to players that do not have a linked GW1 account?  thats like a good, very good portion of the current player base.  

thats actually quite disappointing. . . i think something like this would be too iconic to exclude to a significant percentage of the playerbase.

I just wanted to add to what Drax said, but eventually we'll probably reach the area surrounding the Eye of the North on GW2.

[Konig Des Todes]

I think Ricktar meant that the Eye of the North would be a good place for them to retreat from Jormag - as opposed to Hoelbrak. Flaw in that is that the Eye of the North is too far north - to close to Jormag. They wouldn't be able to rebuild that close.

[Dasryn]

Konig Des Todes, on 01 December 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:

I think Ricktar meant that the Eye of the North would be a good place for them to retreat from Jormag - as opposed to Hoelbrak. Flaw in that is that the Eye of the North is too far north - to close to Jormag. They wouldn't be able to rebuild that close.

ah.

yeah idk, it seems like a sturdy fortress.  maybe like a helms deep or something.  uh oh!  i smell expansion material!!!!

[Konig Des Todes]

It's not really much of a fortress. It's a whole total of two rooms, with a big doorway entrance - no gate or anything. Not very good defense position, imo.

[Steadfast Gao Shun]

Uh, based on what I've seen in GW2 (above pictures I've posted), I think it can serve as a fortress. The entrances seem to be sealed with heavy stone that's no worse than dwarven gates in GW1 (see: underwater shot), and that whole thing looks like a pretty solid stone structure. It's fallen into disrepair, of course, but I think the Vanguard wouldn't have set up in it either if it wasn't defensible.

Edited by Steadfast Gao Shun, 01 December 2012 - 08:49 AM.

[Flaming_Foxx]

Steadfast Gao Shun, on 01 December 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

Uh, based on what I've seen in GW2 (above pictures I've posted), I think it can serve as a fortress. The entrances seem to be sealed with heavy stone that's no worse than dwarven gates in GW1 (see: underwater shot), and that whole thing looks like a pretty solid stone structure. It's fallen into disrepair, of course, but I think the Vanguard wouldn't have set up in it either if it wasn't defensible.

But it can't fit that many people in it as well as holding supplies.
I would also like to point out that a lot of people in Tyria might be a little bit put off by the ghosts that reside there

[BuddhaKeks]

Flaming_Foxx, on 01 December 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

But it can't fit that many people in it as well as holding supplies.
I would also like to point out that a lot of people in Tyria might be a little bit put off by the ghosts that reside there

Yeah and also the wild animals, there are freaking black moas and black widows running around!^^

No I guess the reason why it's not usable as a fortress anymore is, that is is covered in a several meter high snowslide. Parts of even crushed under the weight of the snow masses. So even if you could hold out in there, you are trapped.

[Konig Des Todes]

@Steadfast: So you want to rely on rubble to block your one and only escape route? That's not a very good idea, when you're in an Elder Dragon's territory and you'll be under constant siege, and the lack of a full roof means creatures that can fly (e.g., dragons) can swoop in unhindered. It'd be no different from a lobster willingly jumping into a boiling pot of water at that point.

The Ebon Vanguard used it more as a base of operations than a fortress. It is defensible, but not against long large scale assaults. The sole entrance creates a bottleneck point, and the walls are high and sturdy, but that's just about it. And the size of it wouldn't be capable of fitting the entire - or most of - the norn population.

The difference between the theoretical norn using it and the Ebon Vanguard having used it is the situation each were in. For the Ebon Vanguard, it was a base that was quite some distance away from the warzone, but for norn it would be near, within, or on the edge of enemy territory.

[Steadfast Gao Shun]

Well, Konig, I couldn't find other entrances. It doesn't mean that they're not around. I don't think the builders of the original thing is so shortsighted that they couldn't have at least put in a fire exit.

I was thinking, too. What if the defenders (who built the thing at the time) didn't need to use a fortification in the same way as humans did? What if these defenders were innately magical to simply float up to those walls and rain magic down on their enemies' heads? I mean, you guys see a poor defensive structure. I see something that could potentially be very useful if you have access to magic shields/barriers and long range weapons. I think if I was a race of pointy-toed avianesque laser shooting beings mistaken for divinity, those walls would be about the perfect size to station constructs -

(brb, open up a thread talking about how the Mursaat are really Protoss from Starcraft.)

But yeah, for all intent and purposes - I can't figure out what the "back room" (the actual HoM) is supposed to be, so it probably was once built for ceremonial purposes. It can be defensible, like real-life examples of other monument-esque structures, but it is likely not built for war.

Edited by Steadfast Gao Shun, 01 December 2012 - 05:16 PM.

[Konig Des Todes]

There aren't other entrances. We know this perfectly from GW1. The Eye of the North is a tower, little more. There's not even a means to get up to the giant fireplace above the main room.

I don't think the Eye of the North was ever meant to be a defensive structure, given on its design. Rather, it looks like it was meant to stand against time - a not-so-simple memorial of sorts, which would coinside with the giant sarcophagus-like object in the Hall of Monuments (which isn't there in GW2).

I've always suspected that the thing was meant to be a tomb for some old giant figure (jotun, ogre, giant, etc. - though jotun's been knocked out due to structure design, and ogre/giants don't really seem to have enough of a united society to have once built such), or alternatively a meeting place for many races (e.g., the old alliance between jotun, dwarf, seer, mursaat, and forgotten). But the structure doesn't match any of those five races' designs that we know of either.

[Mockingjay74]

So basically, one could almost view the EOTN as an Egyptian pyramid. Sure, there are some defenses and maybe even some traps, but mostly it's just cool to look at. I agree with Konig and I really don't think it's something that could hold up for a very long time against some of the things I'd imagine would be facing it.

[Flaming_Foxx]

Konig Des Todes, on 01 December 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

-snip-

Morbid thought, but could it have been designed as a tomb for the 5 gods?
Or at least as a memorial/dedication to them? 5 Monuments for 5 gods?