Jump to content

  • Curse Sites
Help
* * * * - 7 votes

Guild Wars 2 sPVP - The Death Spiral of Competitive Play (Analysis/Rant)


  • Please log in to reply
131 replies to this topic

#31 Odinson

Odinson

    Pale Tree Seedling

  • New Members
  • 4 posts

Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:56 PM

View PostPerm Shadow Form, on 09 November 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

That's what you get for trying to reinvent the wheel Arena Net, obviously structured 8 vs 8 PvP which worked great in GW1, Heroes Ascent/GvG, was way worse than this poorly designed PvP mode in GW2. Yep.

Not to mention there's no diversity in teams, everyone's running the same build, same skills, using same tactic and strategy., Personally, fint that boring. I

It is mostly because the trees for many professions don't offer anything in all of the different lines that synergize well with the current PvP play vs. PvE play.  In order to do damage, you need to go down either the strength, precision, or condition trees while the support lines often fall to subpar options.

#32 T J

T J

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 133 posts

Posted 10 November 2012 - 12:43 AM

Whatever the reason is for people leaving; gameplay or poor infrastructure/execution, ANet's not the company it was 7 years ago and it shows in their games. GW1 had great potential for a competitive follow-up, too bad the current ANet failed to capitalize on it and didn't deliver in that departement.

#33 Aodan

Aodan

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • Curse Premium
  • 1616 posts
  • Location:California

Posted 10 November 2012 - 04:47 PM

View PostPerm Shadow Form, on 09 November 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

That's what you get for trying to reinvent the wheel Arena Net, obviously structured 8 vs 8 PvP which worked great in GW1, Heroes Ascent/GvG, was way worse than this poorly designed PvP mode in GW2. Yep.

Not to mention there's no diversity in teams, everyone's running the same build, same skills, using same tactic and strategy., Personally, fint that boring. I

Many MOBA's and FPS have shown that 5v5 is the best number for competitive play.

Hot join pvp is not an accurate of portraying this game nor is lumping 8v8 and free tournament when talking about Paid or later forms of competitive play.

View PostCondiments7, on 09 November 2012 - 12:18 AM, said:

I agree with this assessment, which is incredibly frustrating because of how much I enjoy this game. I WANT to see it grow and become more e-sport worthy, but A-net has been essentially mum on their long term strategy for keeping their populating going. Taking too long to create these features will kill a chance at a good community, even if the game has no sub fee.

I hope they can introduce features to save this game in the long run.

There already is a huge community for competitive sPvP.

If you simply go on #GW2Ringer which is a pinned thread you will see tons of teams/members hanging around talking or trying to sync ques.

Many who complain that there is no "Community" or that the competitive side of this game is "Dead" I don't see playing against good teams or making decent threads.

There are problems with both Hot Join and Competitive play in this game but not enough to warrant a crap thread such as this.

@OP and others; you should be giving real suggestions on how to improve/help the current state not just bash it and act like it's about to die.

I think many of you will be in shock when you see what happens for custom arena's.

But my 2cents is that many a horrible players rather bash the game then get good at it. Just because you "rocked" in a previous mmo's pvp doesn't mean your half decent in GW2.

Many teams simply look to "game history" as a way to establish that you may have the communication and basic ground work to compete.

Edited by Aodan, 10 November 2012 - 04:49 PM.


#34 Veles

Veles

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 261 posts

Posted 10 November 2012 - 05:05 PM

View PostAodan, on 10 November 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

But my 2cents is that many a horrible players rather bash the game then get good at it. Just because you "rocked" in a previous mmo's pvp doesn't mean your half decent in GW2.

Game is just bad bro and your usual e-peening about it cannot change that. And why are you talking like you are any good anyway? No one knows you (apart from you insulting everyone and claiming how pro you are) or your team... Well at least you can be good in a game that almost no one will be playing in few months I guess.

#35 Aodan

Aodan

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • Curse Premium
  • 1616 posts
  • Location:California

Posted 10 November 2012 - 05:37 PM

View PostVeles, on 10 November 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

Game is just bad bro and your usual e-peening about it cannot change that. And why are you talking like you are any good anyway? No one knows you (apart from you insulting everyone and claiming how pro you are) or your team... Well at least you can be good in a game that almost no one will be playing in few months I guess.

-There are two video's on my youtube and a video from BWE2 where the team I lead beat Anet devs/QA testers (only 3 teams did that and I can assume you know who that is)
- I have an imgur with pictures of the many teams I play with and what teams we've/I've beaten.

Where's your proof to state that I'm not good? I'm not the best nor have I said that I'm pro, but that I have a professional mindset of playing this game and have won against many who claim they are.

- Have you made a team and accomplished at least something with them?
- Have you even done a paid tournament or anything?
See I at least provide something to show for my statements, you show nothing then try and bash me?

I'm actually in the competitive community and simply don't like people posting poor analyzation/lack of knowledge of this game

I'm not e-peening, I'm simply stating the real facts.

EviL was a #1 gw1 team and they are getting stomped in GW2
Epeen was a formidable team/group in WoW/GA and are nothing in GW2
AC tried to go pro but as soon as they started losing to some decent teams they left the game

The game is great, not perfect but I've already made plenty of posts pointing out what could be improved and what functions/additions need to be made to help the competitive side of spvp.

I didn't make a thread that simply bashes the game with no realistic suggestions on how to improve it.
Nor did I make a post like yours that proves nothing nor really addresses anything about my own validity

You can check my post history to see them but I'll give you a snipit:

For the competitive side of GW2 to really take off, the implementation of these are needed:
1. Custom Arena
2. Obs Mode
3. Balancing of bunker meta/comps (Just a bit more)
[There are recent posts of my addressing what is wrong with that meta]

Edited by Aodan, 10 November 2012 - 05:44 PM.


#36 Jackiepro

Jackiepro

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 260 posts
  • Location:Canada
  • Guild Tag:[VoTF]

Posted 10 November 2012 - 06:50 PM

Eh theres like 30 people on this gw2ringer as I just checked that out. I am not sure the game is "competitive" at the moment. It may bounce back in the future, I sure do hope so, but that doesnt mean its competitive right at this minute. The leaderboards show that there is something wrong with player participation as it stands for whatever reasons that well Jacobin did describe.

Also its been 7 years since EvIL did what they did, I am not even sure if its all the same players playing or if its just Last of Master, but I am fairly sure at their prime they were miles better at pvp than you or tp or team pz or whoever is "top" on gw2 at the moment.

#37 blindude

blindude

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1142 posts

Posted 10 November 2012 - 10:24 PM

I agree 100% unfortunately with the video.
Right now theres no middle ground between premades and those that despise zergy hot join.
I ve been pugging the last week and it was the worst experierence i had with this game till now.Despite the fact im paired with people that ignore the basics and try to zerg cap,despite the bad team setups where i end up with 4 roamers,despite the lack of ingame voice communication system ,
by the second match YOU WILL FACE A PREMADE...and when that hapens you will most likely face 2 bunkers, mesmers that abuse portal and op elite and backstab thieves that know ,their otherwise completely easy job, in and out.
It is frustration ..nothing more or less
ps:the rage quiters used to make me wonna vomit too..but when you see your team having 1 ele 1 thief and 3 rangers :o and the enemy team having mesm,guard,engie,thief,ele and a guild eblem well..i dont *ing blame them

Edited by blindude, 10 November 2012 - 10:27 PM.


#38 GammaWolf

GammaWolf

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 136 posts

Posted 11 November 2012 - 12:30 AM

View PostAodan, on 10 November 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

There are problems with both Hot Join and Competitive play in this game but not enough to warrant a crap thread such as this.

@OP and others; you should be giving real suggestions on how to improve/help the current state not just bash it and act like it's about to die.

I think many of you will be in shock when you see what happens for custom arena's.

But my 2cents is that many a horrible players rather bash the game then get good at it. Just because you "rocked" in a previous mmo's pvp doesn't mean your half decent in GW2.

Many teams simply look to "game history" as a way to establish that you may have the communication and basic ground work to compete.

You need to open your eyes bro. I don't really care if you watch the video I made or not but I address your points, and I have had many players from the top NA teams agree with me 100%.

- 20-40 minute queue times for paid tournaments
- less than 8 'competitive' teams in NA, many of whom are having a hard time keeping a roster together
- poor stream viewership
- Mass numbers of players leaving

All these things show competition is in a death spiral.

I did not make this thread or video to bash the game. I am pointing out the problems in the hopes that Anet will push fixing the game before there is nobody left.

Also, don't even talk about getting good. Its impossible for new or average teams to consistently play against evenly matched opponents. All they can do is stomp pug groups in frees or get stomped by one the the 4-5 hardcore teams that have already spent hundreds of hours in the game. They will lose tickets and then probably just leave as most people have done.

The game needs to allow new teams and players to actually have a way to improve their skill levels. Getting stomped on the first map in a paid 5 times in a row is not helpful or enjoyable for hardcore or newer teams and the system is completely unsustainable.

One more thing, the internet tough guy act is actually quite annoying and screams out how much you crave attention.

Edited by GammaWolf, 11 November 2012 - 12:45 AM.


#39 Aodan

Aodan

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • Curse Premium
  • 1616 posts
  • Location:California

Posted 11 November 2012 - 01:04 AM

View PostGammaWolf, on 11 November 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:


- 20-40 minute queue times for paid tournaments
- less than 8 'competitive' teams in NA, many of whom are having a hard time keeping a roster together
- poor stream viewership
- Mass numbers of players leaving


1. Thats not the games fault but that of the player base who doesn't want to organize and create more competitive teams.
2. There are more than 8 competitive teams just many aren't huge or known too well yet. LR istelf has made a big comeback with a solid play to counter bunker comps.
3. Stream Viewer ship helps, and it will grow with custom arena's but expecting more out of it is simply high hopes. There isn't enough "competitions" like SC2 or LoL to pull more viewers. And yes the bunker meta helps kill this too.
4. Mass players leaving is a bit of an exaggeration. So far only one team has OFFICALLY left and that was AC. Others have disbanded but have been reformed. The competitive player base is still shifting around and probably will continue until custom arena's come so that ladders/leagues can take off.

#40 Reikou

Reikou

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 557 posts
  • Location:Japan
  • Guild Tag:[AdL]
  • Server:Stormbluff Isle

Posted 11 November 2012 - 01:51 AM

View PostAodan, on 11 November 2012 - 01:04 AM, said:

1. Thats not the games fault but that of the player base who doesn't want to organize and create more competitive teams.
2. There are more than 8 competitive teams just many aren't huge or known too well yet. LR istelf has made a big comeback with a solid play to counter bunker comps.
3. Stream Viewer ship helps, and it will grow with custom arena's but expecting more out of it is simply high hopes. There isn't enough "competitions" like SC2 or LoL to pull more viewers. And yes the bunker meta helps kill this too.
4. Mass players leaving is a bit of an exaggeration. So far only one team has OFFICALLY left and that was AC. Others have disbanded but have been reformed. The competitive player base is still shifting around and probably will continue until custom arena's come so that ladders/leagues can take off.

1. Its probably the fault of both.  No incentive from the game itself to encourage players to organize and create more competitive teams.
2. There are 10 or so competitive teams that I can think of off the top of my head active in NA paid tournaments.  The rest are usually high ranked pugs or similar.
3. meh
4. There are quite a few players that have quit.  Teams maybe not at the top level, but players?  Definitely.  

I get that you love the game and all, but I think you need a reality check.

#41 GammaWolf

GammaWolf

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 136 posts

Posted 11 November 2012 - 02:20 AM

View PostAodan, on 11 November 2012 - 01:04 AM, said:

1. Thats not the games fault but that of the player base who doesn't want to organize and create more competitive teams.
2. There are more than 8 competitive teams just many aren't huge or known too well yet. LR istelf has made a big comeback with a solid play to counter bunker comps.
3. Stream Viewer ship helps, and it will grow with custom arena's but expecting more out of it is simply high hopes. There isn't enough "competitions" like SC2 or LoL to pull more viewers. And yes the bunker meta helps kill this too.
4. Mass players leaving is a bit of an exaggeration. So far only one team has OFFICALLY left and that was AC. Others have disbanded but have been reformed. The competitive player base is still shifting around and probably will continue until custom arena's come so that ladders/leagues can take off.

1) This isn't what people on here, official forum, reddit and youtube are reporting. It is the games fault because nobody is going to make a team when all they can do is fight pugs or get farmed by the very small number of teams that have played for hundreds of hours already.
Loads of people had teams that were more on the casual side, but the game has nothing for them so they are largely gone.

2) Look at Anets own numbers. The QP leader board shows you how few teams are playing. There are like 30 players who are active and 'competitive'. You honestly think that reflects a healthy pvp community?

3) Stream viewership is a reflection of interest in the game and shows the number of people who may actually be interested in learning the game. A stream community of ~200 viewers for a so called competitive game is incredibly low.

4) Are you serious? Its the more casual teams and players who might have been interested in spvp that have left, not people who stream 12 hours a day. A competitive player base of 30-60 people that can barely run one or two tournaments is a complete joke.

Since the game is not retaining new teams or players, all we have is a few big fish in a small pond with barely anyone to play. Its like being the best street fighter player out of your group of 5 friends. Nobody is going to take that seriously.

#42 Aodan

Aodan

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • Curse Premium
  • 1616 posts
  • Location:California

Posted 11 November 2012 - 03:30 AM

View PostReikou, on 11 November 2012 - 01:51 AM, said:

1. Its probably the fault of both.  No incentive from the game itself to encourage players to organize and create more competitive teams.
2. There are 10 or so competitive teams that I can think of off the top of my head active in NA paid tournaments.  The rest are usually high ranked pugs or similar.
3. meh
4. There are quite a few players that have quit.  Teams maybe not at the top level, but players?  Definitely.  

I get that you love the game and all, but I think you need a reality check.

1. Gear and QP for MAT (I agree there isn't much for more casual players, but this also separates the player base as far as commitment. I'm not playing it for anything but for the competition and to verse myself with my competitors for when ladders start)
2. Depending on your terms. As far as high level competition yes probably less than 10 in paid if you don't include pugs.
4. This is multiple reasons, but it's not because of those exactly listed by OP

#43 Aodan

Aodan

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • Curse Premium
  • 1616 posts
  • Location:California

Posted 11 November 2012 - 03:38 AM

View PostGammaWolf, on 11 November 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

1) This isn't what people on here, official forum, reddit and youtube are reporting. It is the games fault because nobody is going to make a team when all they can do is fight pugs or get farmed by the very small number of teams that have played for hundreds of hours already.
Loads of people had teams that were more on the casual side, but the game has nothing for them so they are largely gone.

2) Look at Anets own numbers. The QP leader board shows you how few teams are playing. There are like 30 players who are active and 'competitive'. You honestly think that reflects a healthy pvp community?

3) Stream viewership is a reflection of interest in the game and shows the number of people who may actually be interested in learning the game. A stream community of ~200 viewers for a so called competitive game is incredibly low.

4) Are you serious? Its the more casual teams and players who might have been interested in spvp that have left, not people who stream 12 hours a day. A competitive player base of 30-60 people that can barely run one or two tournaments is a complete joke.

Since the game is not retaining new teams or players, all we have is a few big fish in a small pond with barely anyone to play. Its like being the best street fighter player out of your group of 5 friends. Nobody is going to take that seriously.

1. I don't play for hundreds of hours and beat or come close to beating top teams. My team is just forming but when we are defeated by PZ or the likes, we learn from that. If players want to complain that this game is "dying" because they are getting stomped by teams that putt in the time and effort, than thats cause they are lazy. Wait for GvG and Hot Join to be fixed a bit and the casuals will have their place. But don't go on talking about how Paid or the competitive scene is die'n because casuals are unhappy with casual forms available for pvp.

2. The QP ladder is bugged, there are tons of players not listed with 4+ QP's. I have 5 and I'm not up there. Also keep in mind there was not word that there would be a QP Ladder. Although a ladder doesn't solve the issues, it helps give people more to aim for.

3. Trying to compare GW2 to the likes of League [ Took a year to become competitive ] or SC2 [ is a 1v1 format that is easy to build a competitive scene around] although helps realize where GW2 needs to get, doesn't mean GW2 has failed. League is a free entry game and SC2 is a solo play game, both that require a lot less to put on a good show and to have followers on. GW2 has a entry fee, requires a team of 5, has only Paid tournaments so far, and like you've stated has a low pop competiting in Paid.

3a. With Custom Arena's, tournaments and ladders ran by players will start = more viewers /better fights to view/record

3b. With Ladders and Tournaments there will be more going on with the game and more for the interests of sponsors to partake in

3c. With Ladders and Tournaments there, thus will create more of a "mid" entry level for newer teams to compete against similar level players before having to face more advance/stronger players. (Think GB, OGL, Etc and Tournaments catered to lower end teams / higher end teams)

Edited by Aodan, 11 November 2012 - 03:41 AM.


#44 Wraith of Orr

Wraith of Orr

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 27 posts

Posted 11 November 2012 - 06:20 AM

Forgive Aodan - if he stopped drinking the Kool-Aid, the withdrawal symptoms would probably kill him.

As for the Great Promise for the People that is Guild Wars 2, I find it most troubling that ArenaNet has been so slow to implement fixes for structured PvP. Do they have a point person on this? Did everyone go on vacation after the game's release? It would be nice to even get some legitimate communication with them, which so far only comes in the form of some rumors that my friend's sister-in-law's uncle's cousin heard gossiping at an internet cafe / coffee shop somewhere.

I simply dread the thought that obviously bad decisions like 8vs8 hotjoin are set in stone, much less the paid tournament system that includes elderly nursing care and retirement plans because that's how long it will take before the queue finally pops.

#45 GammaWolf

GammaWolf

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 136 posts

Posted 11 November 2012 - 07:46 AM

Just because you play the game doesn't mean it is fostering a healthy competitive community which you seem to have a hard time understanding.

Let me just put this in perspective.

In NA lets say GW2 has around 10 competitive teams = 50 players

GW1 the top 100 was considered competitive = 800 players
As the game evolved the top 300 was also pretty competitive = 2400 players

The GW1 numbers are worldwide, but there was no region lock.

If you honestly believe it makes sense that people should have to farm or pay money for tickets just to get stomped by a team with way more experience over and over until they get better instead of playing against similarly skilled competition and moving up a ladder as they improve, all I can say is have fun in the near empty and shrinking sPvP you currently have.

Players who don't feel like wasting their time in a broken system are hardly lazy. Its apologists like yourself who accept sub-par design and let the system dictate to you what is a worthwhile use of your time that will keep spvp on the backburner.

Edited by GammaWolf, 11 November 2012 - 08:09 AM.


#46 nurt

nurt

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2386 posts
  • Guild Tag:[WIN]

Posted 11 November 2012 - 08:40 AM

They do really need a ladder or some kind of skill-based match making system.  Using a server browser and time based ranking is such a dated system.  The tournaments are an interesting idea, but again, there's no ranking system in place that measures skill and matches similar teams.  That's the main problem with the game I think.  It's a problem that can be fixed fairly easily though.

The other problem is that capture point PvP has a notoriously bad track record in competitive play in my mind.  I can't think of a single CP based game that's actually become a popular, watchable E-sport, or supported serious competition outside of a small community of diehards playing for fun.  It doesn't have much strategic depth at high levels, and its anti-climactic to watch teams turtle while the score gradually ticks up to an arbitrary number.

Picking one game type to focus on was a good idea for E-sports, but I definitely think they picked the wrong one.  That's a problem that's a little harder to fix, since they're very committed to CPs at this point.

#47 Aodan

Aodan

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • Curse Premium
  • 1616 posts
  • Location:California

Posted 11 November 2012 - 09:52 AM

View PostGammaWolf, on 11 November 2012 - 07:46 AM, said:

Just because you play the game doesn't mean it is fostering a healthy competitive community which you seem to have a hard time understanding.

Let me just put this in perspective.

In NA lets say GW2 has around 10 competitive teams = 50 players

GW1 the top 100 was considered competitive = 800 players
As the game evolved the top 300 was also pretty competitive = 2400 players


Did GW1 get that many in the first few months of release.

No, so please learn a thing or two about "perspective"

View Postnurt, on 11 November 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

They do really need a ladder or some kind of skill-based match making system.  Using a server browser and time based ranking is such a dated system.  The tournaments are an interesting idea, but again, there's no ranking system in place that measures skill and matches similar teams.  That's the main problem with the game I think.  It's a problem that can be fixed fairly easily though.

The other problem is that capture point PvP has a notoriously bad track record in competitive play in my mind.  I can't think of a single CP based game that's actually become a popular, watchable E-sport, or supported serious competition outside of a small community of diehards playing for fun.  It doesn't have much strategic depth at high levels, and its anti-climactic to watch teams turtle while the score gradually ticks up to an arbitrary number.

Picking one game type to focus on was a good idea for E-sports, but I definitely think they picked the wrong one.  That's a problem that's a little harder to fix, since they're very committed to CPs at this point.

The map play is fine. It's the most enjoyable of any MMO pvp i've played because not only do you have basic DM mechanics you have to manage the map, points, and other objectives.

In BoK and thus why many teams have issues with mastering that map there is as many as 5 objectives that need to be managed in a single match along with your basic DM/Team fights.

If anything the issue with CP play is bunker comps or heavy bunker meta that makes the gameplay very anti-climatic

Edited by Aodan, 11 November 2012 - 09:53 AM.


#48 Breakin

Breakin

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 163 posts

Posted 11 November 2012 - 11:42 AM

View PostGammaWolf, on 11 November 2012 - 07:46 AM, said:



If you honestly believe it makes sense that people should have to farm or pay money for tickets just to get stomped by a team with way more experience over and over until they get better instead of playing against similarly skilled competition and moving up a ladder as they improve, all I can say is have fun in the near empty and shrinking sPvP you currently have.


it's exactly the opposite imo. getting stomped HARD is what makes bad players better. then again, that would depend on the player.

#49 Miku Flarestorm

Miku Flarestorm

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 179 posts

Posted 11 November 2012 - 12:35 PM

View PostBreakin, on 11 November 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

it's exactly the opposite imo. getting stomped HARD is what makes bad players better. then again, that would depend on the player.

It's like saying the higher you fall from, the smarter you'll be after your head touches the floor.

#50 RabidusIncendia

RabidusIncendia

    Seraph Guardian

  • Curse Premium
  • Curse Premium
  • 1953 posts
  • Location:Lala land
  • Server:Sorrow’s Furnace

Posted 11 November 2012 - 07:58 PM

View PostBreakin, on 11 November 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

it's exactly the opposite imo. getting stomped HARD is what makes bad players better. then again, that would depend on the player.

There's some serious doublethink going on here, because the same people who are saying this are also saying how bad paid tournaments are because the queues are so long, and the people who want this competition are finding themselves unable to do it often.  Let's stop being internet tough guys, stop the generic comparison, and put it into real terms of what's going on.

Even by this logic, paid vs free tournaments kinda sucks.  If learning is getting stomped by far superior opponents (I disagree, I think there is a limit to how better you opponents are before you learn anything from them), then paid tournaments fails in this regard, hard.  You are forced to play LESS experienced players, over and over, for this one chance at getting your ass kicked every now and then.

And it's not an easy fix either.  If they up the tournament tickets, it will just water down paid tournament skill level.  Really they should've just done it traditionally, make guilds, give those guilds elo, and just friggin work it from there.  But I guess they got greedy and wanted people to pay for a working matching system.  Which would be all fine and dandy, except people aren't paying because that would be stupid.

I suppose they could also just add tiers to the paid tournaments later on.  Like increase the tournament ticket rewards in free tournaments, and have 2 tiers of paid tournaments, one which costs more tickets to enter.  But they're kinda working with a dead system from what I hear with paid tournaments taking forever to queue, so that might just cause the very top to be further dead.  So maybe they could limit the top tier to certain times of the week to consolidate it.  Sorta like how they used zaishen rewards when GW1 was dying.

Edited by RabidusIncendia, 11 November 2012 - 08:44 PM.

Fun while it lasted.  I guess.

#51 nurt

nurt

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2386 posts
  • Guild Tag:[WIN]

Posted 11 November 2012 - 09:28 PM

View PostBreakin, on 11 November 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

it's exactly the opposite imo. getting stomped HARD is what makes bad players better. then again, that would depend on the player.

It's a learning experience, sure, but it's hard to argue that games aren't generally more fun when you're playing against someone of relatively equal skill.  In small doses getting stomped might help you improve without making the game less enjoyable, but close matches are a lot more fun.

#52 GammaWolf

GammaWolf

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 136 posts

Posted 11 November 2012 - 09:40 PM

View PostAodan, on 11 November 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

Did GW1 get that many in the first few months of release.

No, so please learn a thing or two about "perspective"

Then please do point me to some evidence that GW2 spvp is doing well. By every measurement spvp is doing poorly, even Anets own numbers.

I get you live in your own little bubble where everything you do is the best and because you beat a random dev  team one time that probably doesn't even play spvp 5 months ago your opinion is somehow valid despite a total lack of any evidence.

Even if all 5 PZ members came in here and claimed the system was totally fine, anyone capable of rational thought would call BS. But keep banging your chest about your 'pro' mindset as you get farmed in paids all day and wonder why nobody plays this game.

Edited by GammaWolf, 11 November 2012 - 09:48 PM.


#53 The Primo

The Primo

    Fahrar Cub

  • New Members
  • 13 posts

Posted 11 November 2012 - 09:47 PM

Haha dude there's like 20 people idling in the irc channel, myself included.  The only reason people go to the mists on most servers is to get their alts to lions arch.

s/tpvp needs some serious attention.

I like how you're blaming the players for the state of s/tpvp.  Hilarious.  It's our fault that the game shipped without all the things required to foster a healthy and competitive esport community.  

The game doesn't even have rankings.  I literally get matched up against people who are playing this game for the first time ever.  What a joke.

#54 GammaWolf

GammaWolf

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 136 posts

Posted 11 November 2012 - 09:53 PM

View PostThe Primo, on 11 November 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

Haha dude there's like 20 people idling in the irc channel, myself included.  The only reason people go to the mists on most servers is to get their alts to lions arch.

s/tpvp needs some serious attention.

I like how you're blaming the players for the state of s/tpvp.  Hilarious.  It's our fault that the game shipped without all the things required to foster a healthy and competitive esport community.  

The game doesn't even have rankings.  I literally get matched up against people who are playing this game for the first time ever.  What a joke.

Yes exactly. Aodan and others like him seem to think they are heroes for playing a poorly designed game when people who actually have intelligence understand that game has critical development flaws and see no purpose in banging their heads against a wall when there are plenty of other games to play these days.

#55 The Primo

The Primo

    Fahrar Cub

  • New Members
  • 13 posts

Posted 11 November 2012 - 10:01 PM

The worst thing about the whole situation is hot join could be a billion times better if they just switched it to 5v5 instead of 8v8.  That change alone would make me log in right now and do a little hot join before I go off and eat lunch, but instead I just think about getting smacked by a zerg running around and welp no thanks.

Or I guess I could go solo que a free tourney oh wait I'll just get blown up by a premade no thanks.

Damn Anet just slap a (insert esport here) style ranking system on hot join and make it 5v5 maybe I'll actually play your game.

#56 Odinson

Odinson

    Pale Tree Seedling

  • New Members
  • 4 posts

Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:53 PM

View PostAodan, on 10 November 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

Many MOBA's and FPS have shown that 5v5 is the best number for competitive play.

Hot join pvp is not an accurate of portraying this game nor is lumping 8v8 and free tournament when talking about Paid or later forms of competitive play.



There already is a huge community for competitive sPvP.

If you simply go on #GW2Ringer which is a pinned thread you will see tons of teams/members hanging around talking or trying to sync ques.

Many who complain that there is no "Community" or that the competitive side of this game is "Dead" I don't see playing against good teams or making decent threads.

There are problems with both Hot Join and Competitive play in this game but not enough to warrant a crap thread such as this.

@OP and others; you should be giving real suggestions on how to improve/help the current state not just bash it and act like it's about to die.

I think many of you will be in shock when you see what happens for custom arena's.

But my 2cents is that many a horrible players rather bash the game then get good at it. Just because you "rocked" in a previous mmo's pvp doesn't mean your half decent in GW2.

Many teams simply look to "game history" as a way to establish that you may have the communication and basic ground work to compete.

Suggestions have been offered but apparently you failed to read the thread.

From your hardcore point of view, the world is fine, but you are in fact at the top.  Congrats to you, but you misunderstand what it is like to just start playing this game.  I have several hardcore FPS/MMO/Online Action gaming friends who are not playing GW2 for the reason that it is very difficult to jump in a game without getting their butts kicked.  While sometimes it will drive some people, such as myself, to get better.  Other times, people will deicde that it is in no way a good time to get curb stomped by the elite players who have been playing since beta.  This does not make for a good gaming environment.

The thing is, you do love this game, and when people come here to voice their concerns and you voice back that they are bad or immature also creates a poor atmosphere which will ruin the game you love.

The community you so speak of is not in game.  This is a poor design when the best teams have to go outside of a game in order to find each other.  We have mentioned that in the thread already.

What is also poor is to place the very best teams on voice chat against a bunch of random players trying their class for the first time.  The fact that you are "good" at this game doesn't mean anything.  You can call people wrong all day long, accuse them of being bad and not learning how to play the game.  What a poor stance that is.  This is a GAME.  This is meant to be enjoyed by all who play.  So putting those who have the free time to play this game and play it with other people regularly should not be put in with people who have a 1/2 hour to an hour a night to log on.  And guess what, the latter will most likely always lose no matter how organize they get.  It's a matter of time = skill.  Talent will come into play but in the end, time and experience trumps even the best of talent.

So yes, this is important to post this concern.

#57 Aodan

Aodan

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • Curse Premium
  • 1616 posts
  • Location:California

Posted 14 November 2012 - 02:50 AM

View PostGammaWolf, on 11 November 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:

Yes exactly. Aodan and others like him seem to think they are heroes for playing a poorly designed game when people who actually have intelligence understand that game has critical development flaws and see no purpose in banging their heads against a wall when there are plenty of other games to play these days.

Then play those games and don't come raging on forums.

The reason why Paid has so little teams competing is because many lesser skilled/organized teams don't wish to lose on the first map and lose their tickets every time they que. Thus with Paid you have a much higher level of players and even pugs playing it than in Free.

This means that only a small % of the tottal pop is playing paid, not because the game is poorly designed or bad.

It's mostly the issue with majority of the population not being able/willing to learn/play at the level that dominates paid, thus they decide to not even que.

View PostThe Primo, on 11 November 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

The worst thing about the whole situation is hot join could be a billion times better if they just switched it to 5v5 instead of 8v8.  That change alone would make me log in right now and do a little hot join before I go off and eat lunch, but instead I just think about getting smacked by a zerg running around and welp no thanks.

Or I guess I could go solo que a free tourney oh wait I'll just get blown up by a premade no thanks.

Damn Anet just slap a (insert esport here) style ranking system on hot join and make it 5v5 maybe I'll actually play your game.

Many in BWE were saying that they needed to turn Hot Join into 5v5 and Me as well saying that this would foster people to make a better transition into Free/Paid.

That one I've always agreed with from when I started playing.

My thoughts is that Anet wants Custom Arena's to solve that issue and to drive revenue from renting servers if you want pre tournament 5v5.
Also when they eventually do GvG that will probably be the majority of "hot join" play.

View PostOdinson, on 13 November 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

Suggestions have been offered but apparently you failed to read the thread.

From your hardcore point of view, the world is fine, but you are in fact at the top.  Congrats to you, but you misunderstand what it is like to just start playing this game.  I have several hardcore FPS/MMO/Online Action gaming friends who are not playing GW2 for the reason that it is very difficult to jump in a game without getting their butts kicked.  While sometimes it will drive some people, such as myself, to get better.  Other times, people will deicde that it is in no way a good time to get curb stomped by the elite players who have been playing since beta.  This does not make for a good gaming environment.

The thing is, you do love this game, and when people come here to voice their concerns and you voice back that they are bad or immature also creates a poor atmosphere which will ruin the game you love.

The community you so speak of is not in game.  This is a poor design when the best teams have to go outside of a game in order to find each other.  We have mentioned that in the thread already.

What is also poor is to place the very best teams on voice chat against a bunch of random players trying their class for the first time.  The fact that you are "good" at this game doesn't mean anything.  You can call people wrong all day long, accuse them of being bad and not learning how to play the game.  What a poor stance that is.  This is a GAME.  This is meant to be enjoyed by all who play.  So putting those who have the free time to play this game and play it with other people regularly should not be put in with people who have a 1/2 hour to an hour a night to log on.  And guess what, the latter will most likely always lose no matter how organize they get.  It's a matter of time = skill.  Talent will come into play but in the end, time and experience trumps even the best of talent.

So yes, this is important to post this concern.

*popcorn*

I'm sorry I was there at some point too and I still get curbed by top 5 teams. If your friends aren't playing simply because they can't take losing that's not indicative of GW2 being bad or poorly designed, that happens in any and all games.

The game can be enjoyed but you are trying to play the "competitive" format of it. If you can't "hang" then play PvE or WvW.

My current team [BAMF] has been together for a tottal of one week. We beat almost all teams/players in Free, we beat most pugs in Paid, but when we come up against PZ, PTC, or a really good group of any players known or not known and we lose. We evaluate what we did wrong and what we can do to be better. We find out if those players stream, we friend them and talk to them, or we try to recap to the best of our abilities.

Not sit there and complain about how imbalanced the game is or how crappy it's designed.
(Mind you our comp is not abusing bunker meta or dbl grd)

You don't see that happening in most other competitive games for example Starcraft II has seen many days where certain combinations and plays were extremely strong, but you don't see the top players just dropping the game because of it.

DOTA2 is still in beta, and has many imbalances but there are major teams like EG picking it up.

The point is that if you lose or can't take losing constructively than don't blame the game or try to play in a competitive environment if your not willing to do the work to compete.

Also if you think it's ok, in this day in age of online gaming to play a game at any level of competitiveness without a VOIP on PC, than your better off playing on consoles.

10$ Head set = Your good to go.

Edited by Aodan, 14 November 2012 - 02:57 AM.


#58 Jackiepro

Jackiepro

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 260 posts
  • Location:Canada
  • Guild Tag:[VoTF]

Posted 14 November 2012 - 05:38 AM

View PostAodan, on 14 November 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

The point is that if you lose or can't take losing constructively than don't blame the game or try to play in a competitive environment if your not willing to do the work to compete.

Before I start this post, I love the game as much as you do, I play spvp daily for the 5-6 hours im online, and I have no trouble with anything regarding spvp. I can personally enjoy both the solo que and taking my premade into free tournaments.

But I am also capable of understanding, that not every person is like me. The part where your understanding falls short, is that you dont realize that for players like me and you, to have a competitive game, that has funded tournaments, and a large stream following, we need the players who you keep pointing fingers at.

LoL is a perfect example, people open the game, and they play. There are 34 million registered accounts and yet im fairly certain 20 million of those accounts dont have the first clue about game micro and team work. But they still all log on and play it regularly. Do you know why? Cause the game lets them do so. They can get matched with other low talent players who they have an equal shot of beating as they do loosing. And then when they tire of it they log off.

A majority of those very bad players then traverse into the "curious but bad" field. This is the important part, because these bad players start to show interest in the good players. See here is the reality. A top streamer like say saintvicious, will have 8k viewers, but these 8k viewers arent actually watching saintvicious because it is incredibly entertaining, they watch him because they feel like there may be something they can learn. That desire to learn what it is that makes top players tick, can only ever develop if these bad players have something to aim for. About 7500 of the 8000 viewers dont even have the potential to break into say 1200 elo, but they will still watch streams of 2.2k elo play just because they can relate.

In the end, you actually need the bads so that the good players are relevant to something. You need the the masses to have something to strive for, and free tournaments and hot join simply dont cut it, so they hinder the games development into an e-sport.

I know someone is going to complain about me using the term "bads" but reality is what it is, even if some choose to believe that everybody has the capacity to be awesome, they dont.

#59 Aodan

Aodan

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • Curse Premium
  • 1616 posts
  • Location:California

Posted 14 November 2012 - 05:48 AM

View PostJackiepro, on 14 November 2012 - 05:38 AM, said:

Before I start this post, I love the game as much as you do, I play spvp daily for the 5-6 hours im online, and I have no trouble with anything regarding spvp. I can personally enjoy both the solo que and taking my premade into free tournaments.

But I am also capable of understanding, that not every person is like me. The part where your understanding falls short, is that you dont realize that for players like me and you, to have a competitive game, that has funded tournaments, and a large stream following, we need the players who you keep pointing fingers at.

LoL is a perfect example, people open the game, and they play. There are 34 million registered accounts and yet im fairly certain 20 million of those accounts dont have the first clue about game micro and team work. But they still all log on and play it regularly. Do you know why? Cause the game lets them do so. They can get matched with other low talent players who they have an equal shot of beating as they do loosing. And then when they tire of it they log off.

A majority of those very bad players then traverse into the "curious but bad" field. This is the important part, because these bad players start to show interest in the good players. See here is the reality. A top streamer like say saintvicious, will have 8k viewers, but these 8k viewers arent actually watching saintvicious because it is incredibly entertaining, they watch him because they feel like there may be something they can learn. That desire to learn what it is that makes top players tick, can only ever develop if these bad players have something to aim for. About 7500 of the 8000 viewers dont even have the potential to break into say 1200 elo, but they will still watch streams of 2.2k elo play just because they can relate.

In the end, you actually need the bads so that the good players are relevant to something. You need the the masses to have something to strive for, and free tournaments and hot join simply dont cut it, so they hinder the games development into an e-sport.

I know someone is going to complain about me using the term "bads" but reality is what it is, even if some choose to believe that everybody has the capacity to be awesome, they dont.

This will be my last post, but you are right. We need the "bads". Even I watch others streams to learn or evaluate my own play.

I'm not saying that they don't have their place, they have every right to complain about how the game could be better for them or improved, but they don't have the right to ruin the community which supports GW2 even if GURU is only a fraction of it.

Many of those who have fought me on how well the competitive side is doing are often players who aren't even close to the top 100 players in the game on these forums.

Most of my frustration and seemingly harsh posts are because I'm fed up trying to change the views of those who simply rather complain then actually analyze and give constructive feedback, thus like this page.

Gamma Wolf I've never herd of in top play or anything. I'm not saying that hot join and other functions of the game shouldn't be improved, aren't stale, or couldn't be better, but I'm saying that there are many who make threads like these and others who have little to no real experience in the competitive scene for GW2 and yet complain and talk about it like it couldn't get better.

The game will get better, it will get to esports with correct implementation of custom arena and obs mode. Conquest is a great platform for competitive play.

(I've made this statement multiple times before and after paid was announced because paid is not indicative of esports, it is simply another form of auto tournaments)

Hot Join 8v8 is a horrible #, but Anet wants Hot Join to be a cluster a bit so that people can hop on and have fun and not worry about the impact their spec/prof may have on the team. When custom comes there will be more open 5v5 servers.

Even with the implementation of the QP ladder, it is a ladder, it is simply a quick measure of current paid quers, which paid is simply very harsh to those who can't perform at a competitive level against future esport teams.

-peace

ps. Jacobin is the only player apart from Jaja I don't like. Jacobin as always been a player who abuses broken stuff as you can see him abusing the current healing meta with Guardian symbols which will hopefully be nerfed soon.

(FYI mace symbol heals in a higher frequency than it should due to applications with Alt healing trait + Block bugging + Retal being imba atm)

Edited by Aodan, 14 November 2012 - 06:00 AM.


#60 nurt

nurt

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2386 posts
  • Guild Tag:[WIN]

Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:04 AM

Starcraft II is a game that was built to be an E-sport.  At release there was a polished observer mode, skill based ladder, replays, custom matches, and the announcement of a Blizzard sponsored tournament.  The bottom line is that Anet made the claim that they were striving to accomplish the same thing and so far they haven't delivered any of the basic features needed to build a thriving E-sport.

It's not too late, they can still add all that stuff, but they've definitely lost their momentum for now.  At 11PM PST tonight there weren't enough teams queuing to pop a single paid tournament.

Edited by nurt, 14 November 2012 - 11:20 AM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users