22 replies to this topic

[Nimajk]

What if we had a sniper kit that focused on long ranged spike damage, with long cool downs for balance.

There could be different types of bullets that do different things like poison, chill, confuse/stun, maybe a shot with 100% critical chance (longest cool down #5 skill?), etc.

The skills could be channeled over a period of time to help balance out its really high damage. The longer its channeled the more likely it is to hit (and critical); something someone in PvP could see coming (if they were observent enough) and dodge, but leave them in pretty bad shape if not avoided. When being channeled you'd be rooted in one spot too; this would encourage hiding and planning, while also making it easy to spot someone charging up a shot.

The range could be something around 1500 (too long?), it has to feel like a sniper, without being ridiculously long ranged.

If it were too powerful, what about the idea of it being an elite skill purchased for 30 points, but still being used as a normal kit, having around minute long cool downs?

Just my ideas. I want to hear what you all think.

Should something like this be added? Would it be too over-powered? Any skill ideas?

I was thinking something like this would be more suited for thief, but it would be way to powerful in the hands of their initiative mechanic.

Looks like I posted this in the wrong section of the forum, thanks to whoever moved it to its proper place.

My suggested list of skills can now be seen in a post down below.

Edited by Nimajk, 11 November 2012 - 11:14 PM.

[SpelignErrir]

I don't know, but it sounds fun.

100% crit chance skill is kind of lame though. Most people can get around 60% crit chance easy. An extra 40% chance to crit on a super long cooldown...is meh.

[Maxtofunator]

If we got a sniper kit, it would need a range longer than 1600, as that is the max range for ranger longbow as it stands.

[Nimajk]

SpelignErrir, on 09 November 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

100% crit chance skill is kind of lame though. Most people can get around 60% crit chance easy. An extra 40% chance to crit on a super long cooldown...is meh.

I was just suggesting the crit skill. I've never built my engineer for crit (I'm usually support), so I don't know how much crit we can have.

As far as the long cool downs go, I was thinking it'd bee cooler to see some huge numbers less frequently (something to make it feel powerful), as supposed to slightly higher numbers more frequently.

This could be used as something to really change up the way engineers work. I don't think we have that many spike damage builds, aside from some things I've seen with grenades. But then again, I don't know much about the variety of builds engineers can have.

I agree with the range comment. Maybe because its an elite skill it could have something like 2000 range...that would surely feel like a sniper.

How do you think something like this would balance compared to other classes? Would it be too powerful in WvW? Being able to pick off people in zergs from far away sound awesome, but maybe too awesome?

Edited by Nimajk, 10 November 2012 - 04:36 AM.

[Maxtofunator]

Well, a glass cannon warrior can use kill shot and kill somebody without trying if they are glass cannon as well, so for this to be an elite with that skill sounds fine to me, and there is also a rifle build, its mostly a sPvP build though, where you use the rifle and have big ol' bomb, the wrench throw, rocket jump, blunderbuss, and then the trait for the lightning strike on toolbelt skill all at once and you can pretty much kill them

[ArtimiseFlare]

Interesting, this could work, maybe. I'd say make it a kit, where the only way you can obtain the stupidly long range shots is with a "bipod" kind of like the ones you can operate like stationary turrets. have a setup and tear down time?

I'm not sure how you would balance something like this really. Would be kind of neat if it was a kit that augmented our main weapon perhaps.

[Nimajk]

ArtimiseFlare, on 10 November 2012 - 03:07 AM, said:

Interesting, this could work, maybe. I'd say make it a kit, where the only way you can obtain the stupidly long range shots is with a "bipod" kind of like the ones you can operate like stationary turrets. have a setup and tear down time?

This is along the lines of what I meant by "stationary while aiming". It would make it kind of like how the mortar is, but you'd only be stuck in one spot while using the weapon, you could still move with it equipped.

I like the setup/take down time idea. It'd be pretty realistic, I mean shouldn't it take time to properly aim and prepare a long-ranged, high-powered sniper anyways?

I really think this should be a kit though. I know some people don't like them, but I think its a shame that one of the engineer's main sources of damage (kits) doesn't have some sort of elite equivalent. The sniper could be just that.

Maxtofunator, on 10 November 2012 - 02:52 AM, said:

Well, a glass cannon warrior can use kill shot and kill somebody without trying if they are glass cannon as well, so for this to be an elite with that skill sounds fine to me

This makes perfect sense. If warriors,  which in my mind aren't even specialized in ranged weapons, can do this, then a practically all ranged profession (engineer) should totally have the option to as well. But, of course, be able to do it much better, and more efficiently. It could be perfected with traits in the firearms line too.

I love that the more and more we think about this, the more balanced it gets. Someone from Arena Net should definitely be hearing fan suggestions. Or do they already do that?

Edited by Nimajk, 10 November 2012 - 04:34 AM.

[ArtimiseFlare]

This is what I imagine could be effective.

With the kit equipped, you are not nearly as damaging as you are stationary you have mobility.

"Bipod" not deployed This is utilized at medium to semi short range engagements.

Skill 1) Pop shot (auto attack): You fire off a quick shot that damages the enemy, applying a bleed (Similar to our hip fire but with a little greater range, starts off with at 1200 and a little longer cast time of 1 second between each shot)

Skill 2) Steady aim: you are slowed to a walking pace while you "charge" this shot, the longer the shot is held the more damage you do (10-15 second cool down?)

Skill 3) Shot on the run: Fire a single shot at the target then rolling to the side (or you gain swiftness for x amount of time)

Skill 4) Target vitals: applies several stacks of bleed, while also causing weakness the target momentarily, you must remain stationary

Skill 5) Suppressive fire: You fire off several volleys in quick succession causing cripple effects for 3 seconds (?) (15-20 second cool down)

"Bipod" deployed

Skill 1) Aimed shot: 3 second cast, fire a single shot that pierces the target and causes bleeding

Skill 2) Explosive rounds: Load specialty rounds that explode and causes a burn effect within a 100 meter radius as well as bleeding on the target

Skill 3) Elixer rounds: Fire a round at a give location that will explode and grant several boons (20 second cool down)

Skill 4) Sunder rounds: Load specialty rounds that pierce the target and inflicts several stacks of vulnerability, and weakness on the target for 15 seconds (3-5 second cast, 20 second cool down)

Skill 5) Crack shot: Utilizing your marksmenship skills you fire a singly shot that dazes, cripples and causes four stacks of bleeding. Critical doubles the bleed stack, causes knockdown and cripples for ten seconds*  (5 second cast, 30-60 second cool down)


Cool down times and such could vary depending on balancing factors and so on.

Edited by ArtimiseFlare, 10 November 2012 - 05:40 AM.

[Nimajk]

ArtimiseFlare, on 10 November 2012 - 05:38 AM, said:

This is what I imagine could be effective.

With the kit equipped, you are not nearly as damaging as you are stationary you have mobility.

"Bipod" not deployed This is utilized at medium to semi short range engagements.

Skill 5) Suppressive fire: You fire off several volleys in quick succession causing cripple effects for 3 seconds (?) (15-20 second cool down)

"Bipod" deployed

Skill 3) Elixer rounds: Fire a round at a give location that will explode and grant several boons (20 second cool down)

I like what you're suggesting here, but what skill would the bipod deploy be? If 1-5 are all different shots which one will deploy/take down be? Adding a 5th tool belt skill would be verging on making engineers too good to be true.

I think some of the skills you suggested stray from the sniper theme of the weapon. The suppressive fire skill you mention sounds cool, but it just doesn't make sense for a sniper to me.  I like the idea of a shot that can pierce multiple enemies, or maybe bounce around them for AoE (like trick shot on thief short bow), but a volley just doesn't fit the kit very well.

What about some kind of over-heated shot that causes burn and cripple? Or even a concussive shot that dazes and then leaves them confused and crippled?

The sniper with bipod activated should have access to plenty of coated bullets with different effects, while not being reliant on condition damage. And sniper without bipod should have lots of quick attacks like you mentioned, but have more direct, blunt damage, executed with less finesse compared to a fully operational sniper with bipod.

Edited by Nimajk, 10 November 2012 - 06:40 PM.

[Nimajk]

My Skill Ideas:

Without Bipod Up:

Skill 1) Vital Shot - Fire a quick shot to the targets vitals, causing bleeding and cripple.
1 second cool down

Skill 2) Aimed Shot - Move slowly (50% movement speed reduction) as you take aim at your target. Channeled, the longer the skill is held down over 5 seconds of aim time, the more damage done.
10 second cool down

Skill 3) Head Shot - Kneel down in place for 1 second as you aim for your targets head. Causes daze and 4 stacks of confusion.
10 second cool down

Skill 4) Over Heat - Over heat your weapon's barrel, next shot causes burn, or cause burn the area around you when hit in combat.
15 second cool down

Skill 5) Explosive Round - Fire a timed explosive round into your target, goes off after 4 seconds. When it explodes it knocks them back and causes vulnerability.
20 second cool down

Bipod Deployed (With Bipod deployed you are stationary until it is taken down or destroyed, the bipod can be destroyed with AoE attacks, but not directly targeted.):

Skill 1) Sniper's Shot - You basic aimed shot. Same charging mechanic as Aimed Shot, but charged for up to 10 seconds. The longest ranged shot the sniper has, 1800 (2000 maybe?) range.
1 second cool down

Skill 2) Four For One- Take shot that cannot be blocked (aegis) by your target, it pierces in a strait line through target, causing cripple. Same charging mechanic as Aimed Shot, but can be aimed for up to 10 seconds.
5 second cool down

Skill 3) Deadly Bullets - Fire three quick shots at your target. The first one causes poison, the second one causes bleed, and the third one causes 5 stacks of vulnerability.
15 second cool down

Skill 4) Cool Down - Similar to Over Heat. Take a shot that chills your target, and anyone around it in a 10 meter radius (Sorry, don't know how AoE sizes are measured). Your sniper also cools down, releasing a healing area around it. Heal pulses like the elixir gun 5 skills. Light combo field, healing area lasts for 10 seconds.
25 second cool down

Skill 5) Note: I'm still not 100% positive about what this skill should be, this is just a suggestion or place filler until I (or someone else) thinks of something better. Sniper's Den - Set up base. Place an elixir mine field around you in a 20 meter radius (how ever big the chilling grenade skill is). Anyone that steps on a mine is knocked back, crippled, and receives a third random condition. Along with mines you are ready for anything. When you are attacked while the Den is activated you drink an Elixir S and become invisible for 3 seconds to escape, you also gain 5 seconds of protection. The Sniper's Den remains active only while the bipod is deployed, and lasts for up to 60 seconds before needing to be set up again.
10 second setup time (so it isn't used right as someone attacks you.)
2 minute cool down


Because this Elite Sniper Kit would be so powerful, the #6 Healing Skill would be turned into the Bipod Setup/Take Down skill, as long as the Sniper Kit is equipped. The Bipod Setup/Take Down skill would have a 10 second setup/take down time, and have a 15 second cool down.

I'm not sure what damage range each skill should have, as most of them are charged up over time. The numbers have to feel powerful, but still can't be as ridiculous as a back stab thief. Something around the warriors rifle adrenaline skill when fully charged.

I hope this still sounds balanced...

Edited by Nimajk, 10 November 2012 - 07:52 PM.

[Warmaster Bacon]

I had a similar idea, but as an elite with 15 shots,

[ArtimiseFlare]

I think what i was looking for was when you're "on the move" you're in the role of a Designated marksmen, you won't be as accurate you're trying to harass your target more

when you're locked down, you play the role of doing damage more.

I like your ideas too, I was just writing these on the fly really.

[dawdler]

Why should an Engineer get a sniper rifle kit?

Anet has quite clearly defined the Engineer and Warrior (ie the two rifle classes) - The Warrior is the "professional" that aims his rifle and use it with more military precision, while the Engineer use it ghetto shotgun style not caring to aim.

Giving the Engineer a sniper rifle kit would go completely against the principles of the Engineer gameplay. The sniper rifle is the weapon of a professional warrior... IE the Warrior. There are far more fun ways to go if one want a new kit for the Engineer. Such as... The Golem Gun. Shoot at the ground and it will summon various golems, offensive, defensive, supportive. And an elite skill that call in a dozen of them from drop-pods, Space Marine style.

Edited by dawdler, 11 November 2012 - 09:34 PM.

[Nimajk]

dawdler, on 11 November 2012 - 09:31 PM, said:

Why should an Engineer get a sniper rifle kit?

Anet has quite clearly defined the Engineer and Warrior (ie the two rifle classes) - The Warrior is the "professional" that aims his rifle and use it with more military precision, while the Engineer use it ghetto shotgun style not caring to aim.

Giving the Engineer a sniper rifle kit would go completely against the principles of the Engineer gameplay. The sniper rifle is the weapon of a professional warrior... IE the Warrior.

I actually got the idea from the look of the Predator Rifle. If only warrior and engineer can use rifle, and the legendary looks like a sniper, both professions should be able to use it like a sniper.

I personally view the warrior as a brute force fighter, not a profession that would be specialized enough to be a sniper. Warriors have rifles and longbows, but their best source of damage (in my experience) is through their close combat weapons. The warrior specializes mostly in swords, hammers, close combat, etc. The engineer is pretty much entirely focused on ranged combat, so, in my opinion, is more of a specialist in that field.

This isn't based off the way that engineers use the rifle, this is an entirely separate kit, that would be an elite (view my previous posts). I just thought that it would be cool to see how this could work the turrets, mines, etc, that engineers have. A sniper fits better with the general theme of the engineer than the warrior. Engineers have the smallest option of weapons in the game, and definitely need another weapon more than the warrior does.

[Icharios]

I'll just leave this here..

http://www.youtube.c...&v=Ru_rXq2LYg0#

Edited by Icharios, 18 November 2012 - 04:18 AM.

[Nimajk]

Icharios, on 18 November 2012 - 04:17 AM, said:

I'll just leave this here..

http://www.youtube.c...&v=Ru_rXq2LYg0#

I just...that's ridiculous. Especially considering its short cool down and aiming time. Engineers need some love too, that's all I have to say.

Either give engineers something similar with the sniper elite kit, or do something to balance the warrior's power out. The way this kit is explained makes it sound more balanced than what the warrior did in that video, just my opinion.

[Icharios]

This warrior has gone beyond glass canon, in return he can do massive damage to unwitting/vulnerable targets. wow!

[SurfMasta]

Icharios, on 18 November 2012 - 04:17 AM, said:

I'll just leave this here..

http://www.youtube.c...&v=Ru_rXq2LYg0#

I have to admit, after seeing that video, I think the Engineers almost HAVE to have a sniper kit.  An Elite Kit sounds sweet, but I was thinking about how you control your rifle like you control a catapult or mortars, by using the left or right controls on 1 and 3 to aim and 2 to fire or something of the sort.

[Nimajk]

SurfMasta, on 19 November 2012 - 06:13 AM, said:

I have to admit, after seeing that video, I think the Engineers almost HAVE to have a sniper kit.  An Elite Kit sounds sweet, but I was thinking about how you control your rifle like you control a catapult or mortars, by using the left or right controls on 1 and 3 to aim and 2 to fire or something of the sort.

My thoughts exactly.

As far as controlling it like the catapults, I say no. It should be simpler to use, as it's a profession-specific ability. Plus, if it were like the catapults some people would avoid the kit like the plague. Personally, I can't stand using the catapult controls - mostly because I am possibly the worst person at aiming ever, but thats another story.

[SurfMasta]

Nimajk, on 20 November 2012 - 02:34 AM, said:

My thoughts exactly.

As far as controlling it like the catapults, I say no. It should be simpler to use, as it's a profession-specific ability. Plus, if it were like the catapults some people would avoid the kit like the plague. Personally, I can't stand using the catapult controls - mostly because I am possibly the worst person at aiming ever, but thats another story.

I was thinking more of if it didn't become an elite skill, then it should at least be a siege weapon in WvW. I admit that I have not fully mastered the ways of the catapult, but I think it would be a fun, challenging addition for the engi.

Edited by SurfMasta, 21 November 2012 - 07:10 AM.

[draxynnic]

dawdler, on 11 November 2012 - 09:31 PM, said:

Why should an Engineer get a sniper rifle kit?

Anet has quite clearly defined the Engineer and Warrior (ie the two rifle classes) - The Warrior is the "professional" that aims his rifle and use it with more military precision, while the Engineer use it ghetto shotgun style not caring to aim.

Giving the Engineer a sniper rifle kit would go completely against the principles of the Engineer gameplay. The sniper rifle is the weapon of a professional warrior... IE the Warrior. There are far more fun ways to go if one want a new kit for the Engineer. Such as... The Golem Gun. Shoot at the ground and it will summon various golems, offensive, defensive, supportive. And an elite skill that call in a dozen of them from drop-pods, Space Marine style.

That matches my observation as well. It's the warrior and the thief who show marksmanship with firearms, making use of skills that involve precise targeting of specific locations. Engineers, to put it bluntly, don't seem to have the skill - they've spent their 'down time' tinkering with new inventions rather than practicing their marksmanship, and even when using conventional weapons they rely on their custom ammunition and other modifications to make up for their lack of precision. While modern-day sniping is often more about careful calculations than accuracy, Tyrian technology isn't really at that point yet - at the moment, it's based on the potential sniper's skill with their weapon, which the engineer skills we see don't really show.

Personally, if a sniper gameplay does show up, I'd expect it to be done by giving rifles to thieves (and probably still wouldn't have BOOM! Headshot!-style damage potential) - after all, stealth is also important to a good sniper, and engineers as a whole aren't really stealthy. I'd like to see engineers getting a good alternative to grenades for long-range damage too, but I don't think ArenaNet's idea of the engineer is really one that sniping fits well into.

[MrForz]

Sniper rifles to Thieves, not gonna happen. Hand them to Warriors really, just because you're a shadow stealth assassin of doom doesn't mean that they must get the sniper rifle at all costs. Soldier classes can have their share of fun too.

Just because Engineers handle rifles like a shotgun / hunting rifle doesn't mean an eventual access to a Sniper Rifle Kit (placed on Elite slot as example) must be forbidden to them. If you really insist on it, think of that fancy, custom, oversized sniper rifle with an absurd zoom to justify how the weapon rocks but the user doesn't. If one judges weapon access by skill, just strip the Engi to nothing but grenades and bombs and turrets.

[draxynnic]

You'll notice the key phrase was 'sniper gameplay'. We're not going to see some special long-range one-shot kills attack as an item or kit. Not gonna happen (closest is probably the rifle burst skill on the warrior, which really only avoids being the sniper rifle right there because it requires building adrenaline with closer-range skills). However, for real snipers it's not just long-range accuracy that's important but the stealth to get into position and away again afterwards - that's clearly more of a thief thing than warrior or engineer.

You're also strawmanning my comments regarding engineer accuracy. Clearly, they are capable of hitting the broad side of a mob without resorting to accuracy. However, if you look through their skills, none of them rely on hitting the enemy in a specific place - just hitting is enough, and their various engineering tricks have souped-up their weapons so that simply hitting truly is enough to put them on a reasonably level playing field.

Thieves and warriors, however, do have skills that imply aiming for a specific place for a specific effect. Some state outright what that place is (Head Shot for a thief) for others there's simply the implication (Aimed Shot for warriors as the clearest example). The general gist is that warriors and thieves are good with shooting precise locations with ordinary bullets; engineers, on the other hand, use souped-up weapons and ammunition to make up for lacking that kind of precision.

So if there was to be a sniperesque kit, it'd probably have the same theme. Maybe the fancy weapon makes up for the lack of skill of the user, but even then I'd expect it to be more of a long-range tranquiliser gun where the user is simply trying to get a hit (any hit) and the *tail will do its job rather than pulling off impressive head- or heartshots.

Another thing worth noting is that warriors and particularly thieves do have a certain element of engineering in their skills already, so something more advanced like a sniper rifle wouldn't be so farfetched there - but I'd still think it's more likely to see a regular rifle with a set of skills that are suitable for playing like a sniper than a specific sniper rifle.