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[Build] Sonic Boon - Shout Greatsword

build greatsword shout might fury boon signet of rage survivability heal adrenaline

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#121 Brand

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:48 AM

View PostBarden, on 20 November 2012 - 11:29 PM, said:

I would like to add my thanks to the OP. While I don't use your exact build, it is inspired by it. I want a bit more survivability for both PvE and WvW and have traded some damage for that:

http://www.guildhead...Mz9qGGx0VacRoRb

I run 0/20/20/30/0 with Sure-Footed and Last Stand from Defense. It really is quite handy and with me playing with at the most 2 guildies, the extra up-time outweighs the lower dps when on target.

I also run Soldier armor and weapon and then Knight jewelry with Berserker jewels. I'm at about 55% crit with Fury and that seems ok. Runes and Sigil are the same as yours.
At the point you've brought it you are losing a ton of dps, and it's not going to be the same. I've outlined it numerous times, if you want to be more tanky than this build, you need to go full support. Just because you aren't hurting your team (AKA soldier's runes in a non-support build) doesn't mean you're doing them any favors. You can be up a tad more, and your dps will plummet, thereby hurting your overall quality. If it's dps your groups usually lack, go with Sonic Boon, if it's tanky/support people you need, go with a full Cleric's+Soldier's build.

With your build as is, GS isn't at it's max potential, so you would use a different weapon, like Mace/shield. THen the points in arms are better suited in Defense and etc. The point of this build is the balance you get, when you start taking things out of the balance, it leans one way or the other. Take out tactics and you're better off going full 100% crit build for damage, take out Strength or Arms and you're better off going with a full tank build.

While your build may work, I can assure you it is not at max potential. If you had a choice between:
A solid healing supporter, a solid controller, a solid boon supporter, and two solid DPS
or
5 people who all do a little bit of everything

Which would you choose? Which do you think is most effective? You can say that tanks and healers don't exist in this game, but they do to some degree, and your group needs to impart individual strengths to make up a good composition and benefit the overall team. When you have 5 people who can all do a little of something it becomes much more individually focused. A team should be a specified group of people, and I could get into a whole lot of reasons for that fact but I'm sort of tired. If you want to reply with an argument or asking about the reasons go right ahead and I will answer you.

Just to clarify, I don't think your build is a failure or that it won't work. I'm just saying it doesn't make sense in a team environment to try and be a tank and a dps. Let someone else be the full tank, and you be the full dps, or vice versa.

My two copper: Do what you like, and put max efficiency into it. Don't run a "middle" build or a half-and-half set. Go all damage with Sonic Boon, or refer to Sithicus Dias' [Think Tank] thread for a full support build that will make you a lot sturdier.

View PostFinal Mist, on 21 November 2012 - 03:00 AM, said:

Great write up and build! What kind of DPS can I expect with a 25 stacked 100B?
Lots xD As people have said it's similar to a full out dps build, I'd post a screenshot but I don't have any currently :(

Edited by Brand, 21 November 2012 - 04:51 AM.


#122 Barden

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 02:57 PM

View PostBrand, on 21 November 2012 - 04:48 AM, said:

At the point you've brought it you are losing a ton of dps, and it's not going to be the same. I've outlined it numerous times, if you want to be more tanky than this build, you need to go full support. Just because you aren't hurting your team (AKA soldier's runes in a non-support build) doesn't mean you're doing them any favors. You can be up a tad more, and your dps will plummet, thereby hurting your overall quality. If it's dps your groups usually lack, go with Sonic Boon, if it's tanky/support people you need, go with a full Cleric's+Soldier's build.

With your build as is, GS isn't at it's max potential, so you would use a different weapon, like Mace/shield. THen the points in arms are better suited in Defense and etc. The point of this build is the balance you get, when you start taking things out of the balance, it leans one way or the other. Take out tactics and you're better off going full 100% crit build for damage, take out Strength or Arms and you're better off going with a full tank build.

While your build may work, I can assure you it is not at max potential. If you had a choice between:
A solid healing supporter, a solid controller, a solid boon supporter, and two solid DPS
or
5 people who all do a little bit of everything

Which would you choose? Which do you think is most effective? You can say that tanks and healers don't exist in this game, but they do to some degree, and your group needs to impart individual strengths to make up a good composition and benefit the overall team. When you have 5 people who can all do a little of something it becomes much more individually focused. A team should be a specified group of people, and I could get into a whole lot of reasons for that fact but I'm sort of tired. If you want to reply with an argument or asking about the reasons go right ahead and I will answer you.

Just to clarify, I don't think your build is a failure or that it won't work. I'm just saying it doesn't make sense in a team environment to try and be a tank and a dps. Let someone else be the full tank, and you be the full dps, or vice versa.

My two copper: Do what you like, and put max efficiency into it. Don't run a "middle" build or a half-and-half set. Go all damage with Sonic Boon, or refer to Sithicus Dias' [Think Tank] thread for a full support build that will make you a lot sturdier.

Lots xD As people have said it's similar to a full out dps build, I'd post a screenshot but I don't have any currently :(

I appreciate your comment but I whole-heartedly disagree with your opinion regarding speccing 100% for your role, when never playing with a set group of reliable people. I have read your opnion earlier and will not go into details as your opinion seems set in stone, not up for debate.

The damage difference is not as large as you seem to believe btw. Try it out in the mists. While you cannot get the exact stat setup, it does give a fair inclination.

Regardless: I mainly posted my build for those asking for WvW advise, as the build is tweaked as an all-round build.

edit:spelling

Edited by Barden, 21 November 2012 - 02:57 PM.


#123 miruski

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:06 PM

i got a question about the secondary weapon, so far i'm loving this build but i wonder if its possible to change to use an off hand warhorn with whatever main hand as the secondary set and change the master trait in the tactics line to the warhorn trait while keeping just about everything the same. This would give me the option to jump back during a particularly bad condition hit and use the warhorn to clear those conditions, hang back for a while to recover then swap back to GS to jump back into the fight, does this loss of 20% shout cd cause too much loss in efficiency of this build to make it not worth doing this for additional condition removal?

#124 Brand

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:14 PM

View PostBarden, on 21 November 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

I appreciate your comment but I whole-heartedly disagree with your opinion regarding speccing 100% for your role, when never playing with a set group of reliable people. I have read your opnion earlier and will not go into details as your opinion seems set in stone, not up for debate.

The damage difference is not as large as you seem to believe btw. Try it out in the mists. While you cannot get the exact stat setup, it does give a fair inclination.

Regardless: I mainly posted my build for those asking for WvW advise, as the build is tweaked as an all-round build.

edit:spelling
I would like to note that the way I work is with intellect, I rarely hold grudges or anything like that, especially in a discussion forum. If I have an opinion I will defend it strongly, but that does not mean it is set in stone. I can accept my opinion as wrong if you prove that your is right, and I shall then adopt your opinion.

Regardless, I actually tried that exact trait setup (And many others) when I was testing Sonic Boon at the beginning. I am unsure how WvW works as I never play it, and your build may be very viable there. You also remarked on your build's effectiveness in PvE, however, and I simply have to disagree with that (Well, it might be effective, but not optimal).

You said you normally run with two guildies, as long as one of them (Or you) goes full tank, the rest of the group just has to be dps (Maybe one other control/boon supporter) and then you have a good team composition.
There are two reasons that I can think of at this second as to why team composition is important:

1) Even when combined, a group of 5 "Half-and-half" builds wouldn't even come close to the effectiveness of 5 different full builds. This is because you lose out on important traits and armor decisions that will exponentially increase the effectiveness of the role.

2) Social issues. Yes, I did just say social issues. When the group has 5 people who all have similar "half-and-half" builds, the focus becomes the individual. When no one else is more important than you, why would you ever stop to help your team? When a tank is downed and you need support badly, you go rez that tank no matter what. When a dps is down, and you need the push, you get that dps up. You don't have these sorts of decisions with a team of people using builds like yours, simply because no one is more effective at any given role than any given individual. I will give the example of Vengeance, the Warrior downed skill. When I get downed, and I see other group mates down, I will Vengeance to rez them or drop the BS for a group rez. You don't have that sort of "Who do I need to get up because he's more important than I am right now."

Overall, having a team like that, or even one person like that is not going to be optimal, and it's going to bring down effectiveness in a PvE/Dungeon scenario. This is again not saying that it won't work, it just won't be the best choice you can make.

Thank you, however, for posting your build and ideas. I'm sure it works wonderfully in WvW. Look forward to your reply ^^

#125 Brand

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:20 PM

View Postmiruski, on 21 November 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

i got a question about the secondary weapon, so far i'm loving this build but i wonder if its possible to change to use an off hand warhorn with whatever main hand as the secondary set and change the master trait in the tactics line to the warhorn trait while keeping just about everything the same. This would give me the option to jump back during a particularly bad condition hit and use the warhorn to clear those conditions, hang back for a while to recover then swap back to GS to jump back into the fight, does this loss of 20% shout cd cause too much loss in efficiency of this build to make it not worth doing this for additional condition removal?
The shout CDs are very important, but the main reason this isn't recommended is because you aren't a support. The rifle synergizes perfectly with the GS for a few reasons that Dirk pointed out wonderfully in his post:

View PostDirk Hardpeck, on 13 November 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:

For your first major trait in tactics, you can take Stronger Bowstrings (a must IMO for bow) and run a bow instead of a rifle. You can then self-combo with the greatsword as well as apply group might, which is pretty nice....and is what I used to run....however, the rifle makes more sense, as the OP has pointed out, because the longbow depends on using Burst whereas this build's damage output is dependant on not using Burst. You get additional synergy from applying Vulnerability as well. Axe/Shield/Warhorn would be a fine option as well, but again...there's a strong temptation to Eviscerate.

I have to agree that the rifle is the most natural fit here, but there's a little wiggle room for sure.
The only thing he left out is that when you do something like Axe/Warhorn you are then putting way more stock into support rather than putting it into dps. The support that comes with this build is a side effect of the dps, it's not something we are trying it achieve/maintain.

Hope this answered your question ^^ Feel free to reply or rate the thread!

#126 Incitehavoc

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:31 PM

Hey guys I'm new to Guru and this is my first post.

My experience with the warrior is playing some 400+ hours and testing various builds throughout this time.

Though I am very interested in trying this build I will not be able to due to the upcoming holidays but I would like to ask a question about it.

Since the spec and armor runes give an epic amount of  might up-time and stacks, would it be beneficial to change the sigil on your weapon to the Superior Sigil of Frailty (30% Chance on Critical: Inflict Vulnerability (10 seconds))?

Also since you will have close to 20-25 stacks of might for a whole wouldn't the longbow do more dmg than rifle? As things stand Burning dmg is the king of conditions and unless u get up to around 10-15 stacks of bleeds at one time I don't see it catching up to the burning dmg caused by longbow. I might be wrong though, from what i read in the past pages we can switch rifle and longbow as personal preference/playstyle.

Edited by Incitehavoc, 21 November 2012 - 04:47 PM.


#127 miruski

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:34 PM

yeah.... i understand the fact that this is a dps build with support happening to be there, the main reason i asked was cause during my playing i found myself rarely pulling out the rifle which got me thinking about what to put in there and the answer of more support somehow came up :P

thanks for the quick reply :D

#128 Brand

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:42 PM

View Postmiruski, on 21 November 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

yeah.... i understand the fact that this is a dps build with support happening to be there, the main reason i asked was cause during my playing i found myself rarely pulling out the rifle which got me thinking about what to put in there and the answer of more support somehow came up :P

thanks for the quick reply :D
Another reason we use the rifle is due to the range, and it's almost always a good choice to have ranged handy (Not to mention we can simply switch the GS trait in arms for the Rifle trait when going into a ranged fight). The not using the rifle thing is mostly on you though :P I use it all the time, especially to net kills due to Sigil of Bloodlust.

No problem lol, good luck ^^

View PostIncitehavoc, on 21 November 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

Hey guys I'm new to Guru and this is my first post.

My experience with the warrior is playing some 400+ hours and testing various builds throughout this time.

Though I am very interested in trying this build I will not be able to due to the upcoming holidays but I would like to ask a question about it.

Since the spec and armor runes give an epic amount of  might up-time and stacks, would it be beneficial to change the sigil on your weapon to the Superior Sigil of Frailty (30% Chance on Critical: Inflict Vulnerability (10 seconds))?
Getting Might on critical hits is a huge facet of the build, and without the sigil you simply don't get all 25 stacks. You could swap it out, but it simply won't be as effective.

Hope you do end up trying/using it ^^ Thanks for posting!

#129 Incitehavoc

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:57 PM

Also since you will have close to 20-25 stacks of might for a while wouldn't the longbow do more dmg than rifle? As things stand Burning dmg is the king of conditions and unless u get up to around 10-15 stacks of bleeds at one time I don't see it catching up to the burning dmg caused by longbow. I might be wrong though, from what I read in the past pages we can switch rifle and longbow as personal preference/playstyle.

Another thing I'd like to ask is since the added healing from shouts is "The support that comes with this build is a side effect of the dps" your words, can we change the accessories/rings/weapons to full berserk's? I understand that we lose alot of toughness and healing power due to this. Also keep in mind that I am only proposing this because I run with a guild group at all times and we have a tanky guardian that spec's for mace heals, which for the most part ensures that I don't die.

Thanks for the quick response to my first question!

Can I somehow watch this post to be made aware when someone post on it?

Edited by Incitehavoc, 21 November 2012 - 04:57 PM.


#130 Brand

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:11 PM

View PostIncitehavoc, on 21 November 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

Also since you will have close to 20-25 stacks of might for a while wouldn't the longbow do more dmg than rifle? As things stand Burning dmg is the king of conditions and unless u get up to around 10-15 stacks of bleeds at one time I don't see it catching up to the burning dmg caused by longbow. I might be wrong though, from what I read in the past pages we can switch rifle and longbow as personal preference/playstyle.

Another thing I'd like to ask is since the added healing from shouts is "The support that comes with this build is a side effect of the dps" your words, can we change the accessories/rings/weapons to full berserk's? I understand that we lose alot of toughness and healing power due to this. Also keep in mind that I am only proposing this because I run with a guild group at all times and we have a tanky guardian that spec's for mace heals, which for the most part ensures that I don't die.

Thanks for the quick response to my first question!

Can I somehow watch this post to be made aware when someone post on it?
I'm going to make this short and sweet, the answers are color coded to the questions:

1) Longbow keeps up constant Burning, with the Rifle you get constant Bleeds. Any damage that Longbow has over the Rifle's Bleeds is negated by two things; You need to use your burst with Longbow (12% damage drop due to traits) and you can't apply Vulnerability (Huge party damage boost). Not even mentioning the crit-tastic "Hundred Bullets" skill. Also the fact that using Longbow means you need to take out a 4.5% or more damage boost from Empowered when you use it (Compared to Forceful Greatsword which does nothing for you at range).

2) With this build as is you have just enough Critical hit rating with the Precision to keep up your Might stacks, any more than that is fairly wasted. So you'd be trading X Crit Dmg + Y Power for X Power + X Toughness + Y Compassion. You don't need the crits any more, and the survivability and heals at this point out weigh any tiny extra damage you would get. You'll notice the only thing geared towards healing are like 4 things, we're only using them because they are better at this point in the build. The stats are better for YOU and your team, so it doesn't really matter what your Guardian does, though it is good that you run with a didcated support Guardian.

Hope that answers those for you ^^

#131 KrayZ33

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:32 PM

LB offers a combo field + area might and more hits (more procs) though
however switching weapons with a GS build is kinda useless imho (unless you open a fight with LB burst + 3 and switch to GS )

and if we compare single target damage, the rifle should do better

on a side not, I don't think you'll get 20-25 stacks of might with a ranged weapon, well maybe with the LB but not with your rifle

Edited by KrayZ33, 21 November 2012 - 08:36 PM.


#132 Brand

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:24 PM

View PostKrayZ33, on 21 November 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

LB offers a combo field + area might and more hits (more procs) though
however switching weapons with a GS build is kinda useless imho (unless you open a fight with LB burst + 3 and switch to GS )

and if we compare single target damage, the rifle should do better

on a side not, I don't think you'll get 20-25 stacks of might with a ranged weapon, well maybe with the LB but not with your rifle
You wont get 25 stacks with either weapon with this build, that's not the point. Also the 3 stacks of might for your group will not make up for 12% lost damage you get from using LB burst. LB excels in one area, AoE, which we already have covered with GS. This is all without mentioning the huge bleeds with Rifle (Which we are traited for), the Vulnerability it gives, the fact that burning (Which we arent traited for) can hurt classes like Ele/guardian (Ranged bleeds don't hurt anyone during a ranged fight, except maybe rangers), and the ease of access we have to the major rifle trait, Crack shot. I'm sure there is even more things, but I can't think of them currently.

If you want to go LB by all means do it, but you're losing out on 19.8% or more damage, 3.3% damage for the rest of the team, and high damage/length Bleeds, just so you can get 3 stacks of Might for whoever happens to be standing in the blast radius (Which is probably only 1 person, perhaps none. Also you don't need this Might, and you'd be at range with a LB anyway), Burning (Which can hurt other teammates). That's all without mentioning the faster proc rate of the Rifle, and the fact that you can easily trait the Rifle without losing ANYTHING (Longbow you lose 4.5% or more damage, which was added into the original percentage numbers at the start of this paragraph).

You can use Longbow, it's just not as optimal for this build and you'll be losing quite a bit.

#133 Incitehavoc

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:00 PM

View PostBrand, on 21 November 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:


Hope that answers those for you ^^

Yes you did answer all my questions!

The only reason I contemplated using the longbow is because it offers ranged AOE, but I I can also leave that to grp members.
After thinking about your second answer I have come to accept it, the additional heal will be more beneficial for the group overall.

Thanks again mate.

#134 Barden

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:24 PM

View PostBrand, on 21 November 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

I would like to note that the way I work is with intellect, I rarely hold grudges or anything like that, especially in a discussion forum. If I have an opinion I will defend it strongly, but that does not mean it is set in stone. I can accept my opinion as wrong if you prove that your is right, and I shall then adopt your opinion.

Regardless, I actually tried that exact trait setup (And many others) when I was testing Sonic Boon at the beginning. I am unsure how WvW works as I never play it, and your build may be very viable there. You also remarked on your build's effectiveness in PvE, however, and I simply have to disagree with that (Well, it might be effective, but not optimal).

You said you normally run with two guildies, as long as one of them (Or you) goes full tank, the rest of the group just has to be dps (Maybe one other control/boon supporter) and then you have a good team composition.
There are two reasons that I can think of at this second as to why team composition is important:

1) Even when combined, a group of 5 "Half-and-half" builds wouldn't even come close to the effectiveness of 5 different full builds. This is because you lose out on important traits and armor decisions that will exponentially increase the effectiveness of the role.

2) Social issues. Yes, I did just say social issues. When the group has 5 people who all have similar "half-and-half" builds, the focus becomes the individual. When no one else is more important than you, why would you ever stop to help your team? When a tank is downed and you need support badly, you go rez that tank no matter what. When a dps is down, and you need the push, you get that dps up. You don't have these sorts of decisions with a team of people using builds like yours, simply because no one is more effective at any given role than any given individual. I will give the example of Vengeance, the Warrior downed skill. When I get downed, and I see other group mates down, I will Vengeance to rez them or drop the BS for a group rez. You don't have that sort of "Who do I need to get up because he's more important than I am right now."

Overall, having a team like that, or even one person like that is not going to be optimal, and it's going to bring down effectiveness in a PvE/Dungeon scenario. This is again not saying that it won't work, it just won't be the best choice you can make.

Thank you, however, for posting your build and ideas. I'm sure it works wonderfully in WvW. Look forward to your reply ^^

It's use in WvW aside, I both agree with your opinion that it is not optimal i PvE and stand firm that for me it works well.

While you definitely have a point that my trio, which I normally play with, could make up a solid foundation of a group by adding two dps, I find that "randoms" normally cannot be relied upon, so I much prefer the odd 10% dps decrease to cover up the potential slacking from other members. Now this is not optimal, but it is realistic=) If I always played with people I knew "did their job", I would not use my version of the spec in PvE.

I also like your point regarding the "social issues", though I find that I cannot rely upon that in a pug. I prefer it when all five members fit in a way that it does not matter if one dies, rage quit, logs off etc. While this is not an attitude to speccing I would recommend for people who only play with guildies, it works for me when pugging, and especially of course in Guild Wars 2 where, although there are roles in a optimal group, you don't need roles for a group to be functional.

#135 Brand

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:38 PM

View PostBarden, on 21 November 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

It's use in WvW aside, I both agree with your opinion that it is not optimal i PvE and stand firm that for me it works well.

While you definitely have a point that my trio, which I normally play with, could make up a solid foundation of a group by adding two dps, I find that "randoms" normally cannot be relied upon, so I much prefer the odd 10% dps decrease to cover up the potential slacking from other members. Now this is not optimal, but it is realistic=) If I always played with people I knew "did their job", I would not use my version of the spec in PvE.

I also like your point regarding the "social issues", though I find that I cannot rely upon that in a pug. I prefer it when all five members fit in a way that it does not matter if one dies, rage quit, logs off etc. While this is not an attitude to speccing I would recommend for people who only play with guildies, it works for me when pugging, and especially of course in Guild Wars 2 where, although there are roles in a optimal group, you don't need roles for a group to be functional.
Yup, you really should try to find two more ace coolkids for your group though :P Having a stable 5 is awesome for doing... basically anything, anytime you want!

View PostIncitehavoc, on 21 November 2012 - 10:00 PM, said:

Yes you did answer all my questions!

The only reason I contemplated using the longbow is because it offers ranged AOE, but I I can also leave that to grp members.
After thinking about your second answer I have come to accept it, the additional heal will be more beneficial for the group overall.

Thanks again mate.
It will be more beneficial for you too, not just the group (In regards to the healing). The ranged AoE is nice, but if you think about it GS gives you good AoE, and most of the time you need to be ranged is during single target fights (The Effigies in CoF >.>). The Rifle will end up doing you and your group a much bigger favor. Also for reference, the Longbow burst giving 3 stacks of might to perhaps 2 people in its blast radius only equates to about 3% extra damage (Which means that using JUST the Brutal Shot skill will make up for that).

Glad that's solved for you ^^ If you need to know anything else feel free to gimmie a shout! (Pun intended) :D

Edited by Brand, 21 November 2012 - 10:50 PM.


#136 Dirk Hardpeck

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:47 PM

I have noted that the newer version of the build, moving points into the final tier of Arms, does make a Longbow variant quite viable....and I am seeing that issue resurface now because of that...but it would also depend on playstyle. In a dungeon where you bounce in and out between melee/ranged, you can get those might stacks and drop the burning field, and that's pretty cool. But, this type of constant weapon switching playstyle greatly benefits from points in the Disc tree, certain sigils, and certain Traits, of which we are taking zero. The cooldown for 100b is reduced via Traits, and spamming it is probably more efficient than waiting on full weapon swap cooldown.

So then there is WvW, where this build isn't even completely optimal, but lets say we just want to tweak some things around and throw Longbow on. Our condition damage while on a keep wall is still garbage...you just aren't going to have those Might stacks. You are having to blow your burst skill all the time, although at least there is now only 1 Trait that depends on it being full for maximum dps (as oppose to 2 with prior build version). Also, sometimes it's not even the damage that I find useful, it's dropping AoE's to manipulate groups. They don't tend to stand around and wait to see just how much damage that red circle is going to tick for. Of course, you'll be giving up Empowered or Empower Allies for Stronger Bowstrings. And if you are going to be blowing your burst with a ranged weapon, consider that Rifle actually has a skill to quickly build Adrenaline (Volley), and umm...how about those Kill Shot crits up/off a wall?

All in all, Longbow is still a pretty strong option but I just don't see it being optimal...if I were to go back to using it as my normal secondary weapon, I would not be running this build. It would be one of the "something similar"s that you see here, but it would not waste points on trying to capitalize on Forceful Greatsword when I am clearly so hard for Longbow. Rifle just doesn't need any "wasted" points to make it work....that's why it wins.

Edited by Dirk Hardpeck, 22 November 2012 - 12:48 AM.


#137 luckysho7

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 12:40 AM

would this build work with the same gear you recommended but with full berserker jewels?

#138 Brand

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 01:09 AM

View Postluckysho7, on 22 November 2012 - 12:40 AM, said:

would this build work with the same gear you recommended but with full berserker jewels?
The build does use full berserker's jewels o.o;

#139 Brand

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 01:17 AM

View PostDirk Hardpeck, on 21 November 2012 - 11:47 PM, said:

I have noted that the newer version of the build, moving points into the final tier of Arms, does make a Longbow variant quite viable....and I am seeing that issue resurface now because of that...but it would also depend on playstyle. In a dungeon where you bounce in and out between melee/ranged, you can get those might stacks and drop the burning field, and that's pretty cool.

...

Rifle just doesn't need any "wasted" points to make it work....that's why it wins.
Not sure if I agree here fully. The Burst skill of the Longbow is still taking away your 12% damage from Strength (Even though we aren't losing the 9% crit anymore), not to mention adding to the conditions you are "jipping " your teammates out of. The burning field is cool, but you get 12% less damage during it, and you lose out on the bleeds from your rifle (Which you are traited for). You might say that the blast might makes up for this, but it is very rare that an ally would be on the boss in order to get hit by the blast in a ranged fight. Not to mention the 16.5% damage you are bringing to the party with Brutal shot (3.3% for each person). Oh and also you lose Empowered, as you mentioned.

It wins because of that, and all of that ^^^^^^^

Edited by Brand, 22 November 2012 - 01:39 AM.


#140 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 01:40 PM

I suppose it should be mentioned that ideally no concessions should be made to improve ranged damage, especially since no matter what you do you're severing a lot of your damage. Admittedly some situations really do call for ranged weapons, but you should almost never need them. I got into the habit of using the food buff from "Bowl of Orrian Truffle and Meat Stew" (the name may be slightly off), it gives you 100% to gain a Might Stack on dodge, plus 40% Endurance regeneration. This allows you to dodge a lot more often. In particular this should reduce the frequency you are tempted to switch to a ranged weapon.


View PostDirk Hardpeck, on 21 November 2012 - 11:47 PM, said:

But, this type of constant weapon switching playstyle greatly benefits from points in the Disc tree, certain sigils, and certain Traits, of which we are taking zero. The cooldown for 100b is reduced via Traits, and spamming it is probably more efficient than waiting on full weapon swap cooldown.

Completely agree with you. While there are some fairly smart things you could do with a Greatsword in both slots (using smart Sigils), relying heavily on weapon swapping would need to bring more "function" to the table to properly justify it. I've got into the habit lately of using Mace/Shield still as my primary, but a Hammer as my secondary. You can remove a full 5 stack of Defiant immediately with a Weapon Swap for example.

Do point out if i'm jumping in to this thread rather out of context...

#141 luckysho7

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 02:26 PM

View PostBrand, on 22 November 2012 - 01:09 AM, said:

The build does use full berserker's jewels o.o;
sorry I mean berserker amulet, earrings, accessories

another thing is that the runes that you use has being nerf a little to 10% boon still worth to get them?

Edited by luckysho7, 22 November 2012 - 02:29 PM.


#142 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:36 PM

View Postluckysho7, on 22 November 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

sorry I mean berserker amulet, earrings, accessories

The build still "works" by every measure, but Accessories provide a good chunk of stats, so you might want to consider if losing that much Toughness is worth it. The reason for using Berserker Jewels in the first place is because getting 3% crit damage from a single jewel is disproportionately high for what it is (just have a look at the crit damage you get from weapons and armour pieces!). Just remember that with Knights Accessories, the only notable difference is switching out a lot of Toughness for not a great deal of crit damage. You have to question if the exchange is efficient so to speak (i.e. does the damage you gain sufficiently represent the defense you just lost?).

Edited by Sithicus Dias, 22 November 2012 - 03:37 PM.


#143 Brand

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 05:16 PM

View Postluckysho7, on 22 November 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

sorry I mean berserker amulet, earrings, accessories

another thing is that the runes that you use has being nerf a little to 10% boon still worth to get them?
The items you mentioned are the way they are due to efficiency as detailed a few posts up where Incitehavoc asked:
Another thing I'd like to ask is since the added healing from shouts is "The support that comes with this build is a side effect of the dps" your words, can we change the accessories/rings/weapons to full berserk's?
And I answered:
With this build as is you have just enough Critical hit rating with the Precision to keep up your Might stacks, any more than that is fairly wasted. So you'd be trading X Crit Dmg + Y Power for X Power + X Toughness + Y Compassion. You don't need the crits any more, and the survivability and heals at this point out weigh any tiny extra damage you would get. You'll notice the only thing geared towards healing are like 4 things, we're only using them because they are better at this point in the build. The stats are better for YOU and your team, so it doesn't really matter what your Guardian does, though it is good that you run with a dedicated support Guardian.

As for the Runes of the Monk, as far as I can tell they are not being nerfed in PvE, they are adding a new "PvP" Rune of the Monk which has slightly less power, but that hardly affects us as this is primarily a PvE/Dungeon build.

Hope that answeres those for you, thanks for posting and don't forget to rate the thread! ^^

#144 Brand

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 05:24 PM

View PostSithicus Dias, on 22 November 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

I suppose it should be mentioned that ideally no concessions should be made to improve ranged damage, especially since no matter what you do you're severing a lot of your damage. Admittedly some situations really do call for ranged weapons, but you should almost never need them.

...

Do point out if i'm jumping in to this thread rather out of context...
Oh of course, it definitely should be noted that the Rifle in this build should only be used for:
1) Stacking Bloodlust on trash mobs
2) Ranged fights where you have no other choice

The reason to pick Rifle over Longbow is simply because it works better for you in every way using this build, not because you should be constantly swapping it in and out during fights, that would just be inefficient.

Naw Sithicus you're fine haha, I keep telling people to go to your thread if they want something more tanky/with Soldier's runes anyway xD Good to have you back!

Also, happy Thanksgiving everyone! Hope you all have a great holiday planned! :D

#145 Dirk Hardpeck

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 05:41 PM

View Postluckysho7, on 22 November 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

sorry I mean berserker amulet, earrings, accessories

another thing is that the runes that you use has being nerf a little to 10% boon still worth to get them?

I used full Berserker's jewlery to try the spec out (I was a little low on funds, so in order to craft the new jewlery and put zerkers jewels in, I would have to salvage my full Berserker set). Like Sithicus said, it will work fine, but in the long run you do want to augment Toughness/Healing power in return for the fairly small crit dmg bumps.

Those runes were nerfed in PvP, they still appear to be 15% in PvE.

EDIT: messed up on calling Boon Duration 25%

View PostBrand, on 22 November 2012 - 01:17 AM, said:

Not sure if I agree here fully.

Heh, just playing Devil's advocate ;) Raw dps numbers won't change everyone's opinion, especially in a game like this where there is a little more freedom of choice. I just wanted to point out that, yes, you can swing a greatsword around then swap, drop a 25 Might stack burning AoE and toss another AoE bomb that even gives group Might, sounds great...and if you are hung up on Longbow, that sounds good enough to make some sacrifices to play the way you want.

Sure. I just want to point out that if you tunnel vision on that ~6 seconds of gameplay, it sounds "pretty cool", even putting aside the loss of Empowered, 12% damage, etc. But, the rest of your combat time is alot less glamorous as you wait on swap cooldowns that you get absolutely nothing in return for.

In short: Longbow does less damage, and it isn't a fun way to play with this build. I know, I tried. Should pretty much be the nail in the coffin for those trying to squeeze the longbow into this build.

Edited by Dirk Hardpeck, 23 November 2012 - 06:18 AM.


#146 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 05:49 PM

View PostBrand, on 22 November 2012 - 05:24 PM, said:

Naw Sithicus you're fine haha, I keep telling people to go to your thread if they want something more tanky/with Soldier's runes anyway xD Good to have you back!


And i'm sending the people who don't want to tank back here ;)

#147 Dirk Hardpeck

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 06:01 PM

View PostBrand, on 20 November 2012 - 03:20 AM, said:

I'm just trying to figure out if there is a way to keep the 1400 heals :( I do so enjoy that nice number

Well, for what it's worth, my heals are at exactly 1400 right now...

with Water runes and 2 sets of +Might runes, alas :(

I have to do a couple of AC runs here soon lol...will throw the nice healing number right out the window ;)

#148 Brand

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 06:19 PM

View PostDirk Hardpeck, on 22 November 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

Those runes were nerfed in PvP, they still appear to be 25% in PvE.

Heh, just playing Devil's advocate ;) Raw dps numbers won't change everyone's opinion, especially in a game like this where there is a little more freedom of choice.

If you are hung up on Longbow, that sounds good enough to make some sacrifices to play the way you want.

In short: Longbow does less damage, and it isn't a fun way to play with this build. I know, I tried. Should pretty much be the nail in the coffin for those trying to squeeze the longbow into this build.
You should edit this for clarity, it's 15% (You got it mixed up with the 25 Healing I think)

Yeah. Like I just posted over in one of Sithicus' threads, you really need to find a weapon and playstyle that you enjoy, and find or make a build designed around those things (It might not be in the Warrior class). No amount of statistics, theory crafting, or number crunching is going to make you enjoy or be useful with a build that requires a playstyle you aren't familiar with. You should make it optimal though, as a build that isn't optimal can hurt your team and definitely hurts you. The goal is an optimal build that fits your playstyle.

Pretty much the truth, if you're so hard set on using the Longbow and being an apostle of Balthazar with your fiery war hounds (I won't lie, it does sound pretty damn cool) then obviously a Greatsword build is not for you. You should find something that does use a Longbow effectively, like the blast combo LB/Hammer build mentioned by Siroso (Hell, if you wanted to, the Hounds might actually be really good here, providing extra burning AND extra allies to put might stacks on).

I'm trying so hard to make a pun here... But I can't think of any :(

I do so enjoy my rainbow posts ^^ And I see that Sithicus :P I made sure to give you an appropriate and totally homosexual <3 in my post in your thread!

Edited by Brand, 22 November 2012 - 06:28 PM.


#149 Kildaros

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 01:20 PM

View PostBrand, on 22 November 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

The goal is an optimal build that fits your playstyle.

Brand, you not want create an optimal build to axe/shield or anything/shield users? :D  You said you really like math :P

#150 Evans

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 01:33 PM

Wait what? I gotta change again as the build changed?
Ah well, the old one also worked fine, but I'll go ahead and change it up.




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