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[Build] Sonic Boon - Shout Greatsword

build greatsword shout might fury boon signet of rage survivability heal adrenaline

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#211 Nonlinear

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 07:32 PM

This looks like a fun build but personally I'd probably ditch the knight and cleric accessories and maybe weapon and replace them all with berserkers to get crit damage past 50% and get some more power due to all the good crit from knight's armor.  Probably shuffle a few trait points around too.  Less than 1,800 power is a tad on the low side for all the crit, even after 25 might stacks there is still a trade off between damage (i.e. kill time) and 1.4k shout heals.  It’s a classic synergy:  crit damage modifies crit (which is further modified by fury) which modifies power (which is modified by might stacks), which determines how much damage you do in the long run:

Long Run Direct Damage = P * (1 + C * (0.5 + D))

Where P = power, C = crit % and D = crit damage (as %).  

If D < 50% (i.e. crits do less than 200% damage) the modifier on C (your precision/crit) is less than 1.0 (i.e. less than 100%) so your precision/fury contribution to your long run damage gets scaled down.  It's a threshold/principle that is the same across the board for all games that use a similar system for modifying damage with crits.  Anyone who has played a DPS caster in wow should be familiar with the old talents that gave 50% crit damage to get magic crits to 200% damage and were basically mandatory for DPS builds (e.g. Spell Power in Arcane, hence one of the many reasons for their entire revamping of the talent system).  
  • If D = 50% (i.e. 200% damage crits) then long run direct damage is increased by critical strike % (1:1)
  • If D > 50%, each % of crit adds a little more than 1% damage (e.g. 1.0:1.1)
  • Finally, if D < 50% (i.e. less than 200% crits) then crit rate will add less than 1:1 to long run damage (e.g. 1.0:0.68, which is what you are currently at with 18% crit damage).
With your current numbers your long run damage is ~2,316, just bumping the crit damage from 18% to 50% and leaving everything the same bumps you to 2,567, about a 10.8% increase.  This doesn’t include 20% crit from “perpetual fury” or 875 from 25 might stacks*.

Swapping the accessories for berserkers would decrease toughness and healing but increase crit damage by 17%, power by 96 and crit by 96 (~4.3%) which will increase long run damage by ~14.6%.  Adding the 20% crit from Fury into both numbers increases the gap to ~16.5%.  Adding in the might decreases the gap slightly due to the way might benefits lower power more (see *), down to ~13%.

You can go the mists, plug the numbers into the formula, change something up in the equation, (power, crit or crit damage) get the % difference between the two and you’ll see it translates to how long it takes to kill a golem (using direct damage), e.g. a 20% difference in relative power leads to the less powerful build taking 20% longer to kill the golem.  The tradeoff is whether or not those extra seconds are worth 1.4k heals and the toughness.  If a 3 minute fight lasts 15% longer that’s 27 extra seconds of a boss attacking the party, it’s up to the player to decide whether or not all the heals are worth the extra damage the boss can potentially dish out in that 27 seconds.  The difference can mean popping your elite skill once, twice or even three times, repeating DPS race gimmicks, etc.  

*Might actually gives more relative benefit the less power you have, e.g. 875 power to someone with 1800 power is a lot more beneficial than it is to someone with 2200 power, as the former gets ~49% relative increase in power while the latter only gets ~40% relative power increase.  However, the latter number is still bigger overall 3,075 vs. 2,675).

Edited by Nonlinear, 29 November 2012 - 07:50 PM.


#212 Ark211049

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 09:48 PM

whoops double post

Edited by Ark211049, 30 November 2012 - 11:24 AM.


#213 sivartnameloc

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:09 PM

I plan on trying this out for my New warr. I dont think i read anything about food, but I assume you want Omnomnom Berry Pie along with Master Tuning Crystals? Pie for Prec and Health Regen, and Tuning crystals to utilize the Toughness you have to make your bleeds do more dmg?

#214 Ark211049

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 01:16 AM

View PostNonlinear, on 29 November 2012 - 07:32 PM, said:

cut

very informative post nonlinear, my thanks, another user over in the guardian section made the claim that minor in power & precision is higher dps than major in just power, this was about having soldier gear over knights for more berserker trinkets, ofc this was concerning guardian usage but im wondering how it can be applied here to a warr and this build/concept, would it give higher dps? higher survivibility? does your stats of double minor vs single major match his? im wondering if maybe it achieves a sort of balance, having strength runed soldier armor & berserker trinkets/GS.

#215 Brand

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 02:19 AM

View PostNonlinear, on 29 November 2012 - 07:32 PM, said:

This looks like a fun build but personally I'd probably ditch the knight and cleric accessories and maybe weapon and replace them all with berserkers to get crit damage past 50% and get some more power due to all the good crit from knight's armor.  Probably shuffle a few trait points around too.  Less than 1,800 power is a tad on the low side for all the crit, even after 25 might stacks there is still a trade off between damage (i.e. kill time) and 1.4k shout heals.  It’s a classic synergy:  crit damage modifies crit (which is further modified by fury) which modifies power (which is modified by might stacks), which determines how much damage you do in the long run:

Long Run Direct Damage = P * (1 + C * (0.5 + D))

Where P = power, C = crit % and D = crit damage (as %).  

If D < 50% (i.e. crits do less than 200% damage) the modifier on C (your precision/crit) is less than 1.0 (i.e. less than 100%) so your precision/fury contribution to your long run damage gets scaled down.  It's a threshold/principle that is the same across the board for all games that use a similar system for modifying damage with crits.  Anyone who has played a DPS caster in wow should be familiar with the old talents that gave 50% crit damage to get magic crits to 200% damage and were basically mandatory for DPS builds (e.g. Spell Power in Arcane, hence one of the many reasons for their entire revamping of the talent system).  
  • If D = 50% (i.e. 200% damage crits) then long run direct damage is increased by critical strike % (1:1)
  • If D > 50%, each % of crit adds a little more than 1% damage (e.g. 1.0:1.1)
  • Finally, if D < 50% (i.e. less than 200% crits) then crit rate will add less than 1:1 to long run damage (e.g. 1.0:0.68, which is what you are currently at with 18% crit damage).
With your current numbers your long run damage is ~2,316, just bumping the crit damage from 18% to 50% and leaving everything the same bumps you to 2,567, about a 10.8% increase.  This doesn’t include 20% crit from “perpetual fury” or 875 from 25 might stacks*.

Swapping the accessories for berserkers would decrease toughness and healing but increase crit damage by 17%, power by 96 and crit by 96 (~4.3%) which will increase long run damage by ~14.6%.  Adding the 20% crit from Fury into both numbers increases the gap to ~16.5%.  Adding in the might decreases the gap slightly due to the way might benefits lower power more (see *), down to ~13%.

You can go the mists, plug the numbers into the formula, change something up in the equation, (power, crit or crit damage) get the % difference between the two and you’ll see it translates to how long it takes to kill a golem (using direct damage), e.g. a 20% difference in relative power leads to the less powerful build taking 20% longer to kill the golem.  The tradeoff is whether or not those extra seconds are worth 1.4k heals and the toughness.  If a 3 minute fight lasts 15% longer that’s 27 extra seconds of a boss attacking the party, it’s up to the player to decide whether or not all the heals are worth the extra damage the boss can potentially dish out in that 27 seconds.  The difference can mean popping your elite skill once, twice or even three times, repeating DPS race gimmicks, etc.  

*Might actually gives more relative benefit the less power you have, e.g. 875 power to someone with 1800 power is a lot more beneficial than it is to someone with 2200 power, as the former gets ~49% relative increase in power while the latter only gets ~40% relative power increase.  However, the latter number is still bigger overall 3,075 vs. 2,675).
This is all very true, and thank you for taking the time to write it all up as I'm sure it will be very informative to anyone who actually reads the comments ^^

However, I do have an issue with Berserker's Rings/Amulet/etc that I've had from the very beginning and have explained multiple times. The fact of the matter is that we have enough crit to maintain those 25 stacks of might. Sure, crits still add damage, but the major reason we have crits in the build is wasted at that point. I shall test it again, but last I tried, switching to full berserker's didn't offer any increase in average might stacks.

Ergo, putting in healing and survivability becomes much more viable. You can think of the 25 stack might cap as almost Diminishing returns on crit with this build. Anything after that simply isn't helping us out that much. An extra 600 heals every ~22 seconds and a bit of toughness are still helping (A good deal, might I add).

Another thing to consider is that we aren't losing power completely, as it is a minor stat. So you can then really see the crit damage on Berserker's being the only thing that is really helping us. Personally, I'd rather support my team a little more. Something you can't quantify in your 3 minute example is, "How many people, including me, might have gone down due to that lack of toughness/Healing, or even had to back out of the fight for a few seconds?" When you take something like that into account, the negative effects of going full Berserker's are even higher (And as I already stated, while crit and crit damage scale wonderfully with this build, the bonuses of going full berserker's aren't that great).

Another thing is that your 3 minute example is a little flawed, I think? Just because it takes me 15-20% longer to kill a golem/boss, doesn't mean it takes my group 15-20% longer. It would be more like 3-7% as I am one member of a 5 man group (Numbers divided by 5). So even at 7% that would be a ~13 second increase in length, if I am not mistaken. Furthermore, it is now even more plausible that the extra survivability and 600 heals every ~22 seconds would benefit the fight more, as without them the fight may last 20 seconds, or 25 seconds longer (Depending on if people go down, how many do, how much time is spent skirting around a boss at low health, etc).

Again, all of that is not very easily quantifiable, as I have stated in posts past, but it becomes more more of a plausible situation. As I stated, I'd prefer to play it safe rather than take a chance every fight :)

All in all, we have enough crit, we aren't losing too much power, and I feel the heals and survivability out match any extra damage.
Again, thank you for the detailed reply, and I hope to hear from you again (Though maybe not about this issue ;)  )

#216 Brand

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 02:26 AM

View PostSilvard, on 29 November 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

I've been further planning for this build in high level fractals, but I've been looking over the recommended gear and I have to ask: how much of this build's effectiveness hinges upon that exact combination?

The reason is that as you know progressing further up in difficulty in fractals, which is what could be argued is the prime and most demanding PvE/dungeon content ( which happens to be the scope of this build), requires using ascended gear. That gear does not exist with the combinations that the spreadsheet have. For instance, there are no healing backpieces, and the only ascended rings with healing (very minor, at that) have other undesired stats (condition damage). I can see no way to preserve the suggest stat make up with the current ascended backpieces, and high level fractal players have no choice but to use them anyway.

What do you think? How viable does this build remain in that case and what changes to suggested gear should be made in light of the ascended pieces' stat distribution?
Effectiveness is pretty solely based on the Knight's Armor and the a bit of the Berserker's jewels. Switching out things in the Accessories is certainly going to affect the build in probably a negative manner, but it shouldn't harm overall preformance too much.

Many people (Including myself) use the Ancient Karka Shells as they are greatly beneficial to the build, but I have not put them in the spreadsheet just because not everyone has them (Especially low level folks looking for a good build :D)

So that should be proof enough that gear changes to the accessories can be made. As for which are best, again I have not been in fractals yet due to some irl stuff (School, family, etc) and any time spent on the game is mostly just talking to people if I get the chance.

I'll look up all of the stat changes in a bit, but I know that of the backs, the power/toughness/crit damage one is your best bet.

#217 Silvard

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 02:34 AM

I see, that makes sense. I guess there's really no choice but to lose a bunch of healing power and/or precision and/or toughness, since Ascended items don't have Cleric's or Knight's equivalent, only some combinations that don't really help the build and Berserker's.

#218 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:11 AM

Tome of the Rubicon is Precision, Toughness and Condition damage, which could be argued as the closest representation of useful stats for a backpiece.

#219 Nonlinear

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 04:32 PM

Like I said it is personal choice whether 1.4k heals (600-900 range) are worth locking up all your skill slots with shouts and losing 15% of your PERSONAL long run damage.  I personally don't think it is but everyone is different, I am merely going to replace the healing aspect with more damage and shuffle my traits accordingly.  Every second counts when you are kiling turrets in SE path 1.

Edited by Nonlinear, 30 November 2012 - 04:32 PM.


#220 Nonlinear

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 07:03 PM

View PostArk211049, on 30 November 2012 - 01:16 AM, said:

very informative post nonlinear, my thanks, another user over in the guardian section made the claim that minor in power & precision is higher dps than major in just power, this was about having soldier gear over knights for more berserker trinkets, ofc this was concerning guardian usage but im wondering how it can be applied here to a warr and this build/concept, would it give higher dps? higher survivibility? does your stats of double minor vs single major match his? im wondering if maybe it achieves a sort of balance, having strength runed soldier armor & berserker trinkets/GS.

YW!  The direct damage equation works the same way across the board for all games that handle crit this way (i.e. modifies damage by x%).  It's the EXACT same thing in WoW except Mists literally holds your hand and just GIVES you a 100% crit modifier (i.e. 200% damage crits).  No trading strength/agility/crit for it, you just have it.  

And before that (when I played) you either had it (physical) or you had a MANDATORY DPS talent to get it (magic).  That was one of the main reasons they redid the talent system: mandatory talents that outclass the rest lead to forced choices that only look like choices but really aren't.  You NEEDED it.  It was NOT optional.  So they decided just give it to you as you leveled up.  That's how important the crit modifier is to a DPS build of any kind.  Don't even bother thinking about it if you play wow, you just HAVE it.  Blizzard doesn't want anyone to do less than optimal damage because of poor choices (silly things like ignoring crit modifiers) so they hand you everything you need to do and let you choose between skill gimmicks now.

With 200% crit damage (50% extra) the modifier is 1.0, so your long run damage % will be increased by your crit rate.  This means that x% damage increase and x% crit increases produce the same result, so if you have high crit and rely on procs then the crit increase talent over the damage talent is/was a no-brainer.

With 0 extra crit damage (150% crits) your long run damage % will only increase by 50% of your crit rate.  This is a LARGE loss in DPS for whatever it is you may be gaining and in that case the x% damage increases are superior.  As I just posted in similar thread in the elementalist forum:

Quote

I sadface when I see high crit with a crit modifier below 100% (i.e. crits for < 200% damage, i.e. crit damage % from gear/traits < 50%) because in the long term a low crit modifier scales down precision which scales down power which scales down damage

This is a pretty brutal tradeoff that doesn't exist in other MMOs I've played where DPS automatically crit for 200% or there is a talent to get you to the threshold without having to trade stats to get there.  100% crit modifier was either handed to you or a mandatory talent for your spec, in Mists I guess it is just handed to you with the new talent system, you don't even have to think about it. 100% crit modifier, 200% damage crits.  You just have it.

The crit modifier makes the other two stats that use it for damage calculations scale better, 200% damage crits in WoW were mandatory for any DPS build because of this compounded scaling effect.


#221 Nonlinear

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:43 PM

You see, the thing is, long run averages are easily quantifiable and always has been.  I produced the equation for long run damage.  The calculation itself is very simple.  

Long Run Damage = P * (1 + C * (0.5 + D)

Assuming everything else is equal, that is all that is left.  Those three stats are all that are needed to determine the relative increase or decrease in long run DPS.  Like I said, easily quantified and testable on golems.  When it comes to direct damage, the % difference between two results translates directly to the amount of time needed to kill stuff and can be confirmed by running tests on golems in the mists.

High crit with less than 100% crit modifier and you're gimping all the damage scaling that follows.  And what exactly are you providing to the group besides puny 1.4k shout heals and at least 12% less DPS that you wouldn't be providing if you ditched the clerics and knights trinkets for DPS trinkets?

#222 Zerikin Loukbel

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:48 PM

There are several popular guardian builds that use the might on crit trait and have the crit rate to back it up. It gives 3 stacks every time it goes off with a 1s ICD. It should provide an average of 6-9 stacks without any boon duration.

I find it unclear what you mean by DR on healing for shouts. Its always base + .8 * healing so it should just increase linearly, from what I know. Meaning its 952 + 80% * healing counting the 300 healing you get by going 30 tactics.

My main critique of your build is the assumption that there are no other sources of might in the group.

#223 Brand

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:26 PM

View PostZerikin Loukbel, on 30 November 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

There are several popular guardian builds that use the might on crit trait and have the crit rate to back it up. It gives 3 stacks every time it goes off with a 1s ICD. It should provide an average of 6-9 stacks without any boon duration.

I find it unclear what you mean by DR on healing for shouts. Its always base + .8 * healing so it should just increase linearly, from what I know. Meaning its 952 + 80% * healing counting the 300 healing you get by going 30 tactics.

My main critique of your build is the assumption that there are no other sources of might in the group.
First of all, my posts were referring to a straight up supportive guardian, AKA Cleric's gear and what not. None of this precision gear etc.

Secondly, the build does allow for a tiny tiny bit of extra might stacks, after 100B you might fall down to 20-22 on your lonesome.

Third, and quoted from Sithicus; So the healing done from shouts divided by healing power is proportionately higher for lower HP.

View PostNonlinear, on 30 November 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

You see, the thing is, long run averages are easily quantifiable and always has been.  I produced the equation for long run damage.  The calculation itself is very simple.  

Long Run Damage = P * (1 + C * (0.5 + D)

Assuming everything else is equal, that is all that is left.  Those three stats are all that are needed to determine the relative increase or decrease in long run DPS.  Like I said, easily quantified and testable on golems.  When it comes to direct damage, the % difference between two results translates directly to the amount of time needed to kill stuff and can be confirmed by running tests on golems in the mists.

High crit with less than 100% crit modifier and you're gimping all the damage scaling that follows.  And what exactly are you providing to the group besides puny 1.4k shout heals and at least 12% less DPS that you wouldn't be providing if you ditched the clerics and knights trinkets for DPS trinkets?
1.4k shout heals still heal the average group for nearly a third of it's health every 20 seconds, not to mention the boon support and condition removal. We also discovered on page 3 that the amount of might/fury you get from having boon duration runes and etc increased group damage by 15-20%, dwarfing your 12%.

Edited by Brand, 30 November 2012 - 09:26 PM.


#224 Nonlinear

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:00 AM

yeah, they heal if the group members are:

1) taking damage every 20 seconds (if they didn't already get themselves out of danger and heal themselves with their own heal skill that does like 2x more than all of your shouts combined)  

2) within 600 range, 900 for one.  

Oh, and you just blew your three utilities, hope nothing casts burning in the next 20 seconds, would be much more useful to get rid of that then maybe or maybe not heal one or more people for 1.4k.

Your group damage calculations make similar assumptions it must be nice to always be in the best possible situation to maximize your supposed DPS when trying to argue how superior it is.  

The equation I used is straight from the wiki and calculates your expected damage over the long run no matter what you are doing:

http://wiki.guildwar...ki/Critical_hit

There are no other assumptions involved.  You have a lot of precision, it's like your highest stat, you will have more, so what?  At least you will be getting more than 68% of it applied to your damage in the long run and it won't be getting scaled DOWN.  You ARE trying to do DPS, right?

You do melee dps and over the long run your precision AND fury contributions (that you invested in to keep up 100%) to your own DPS are being scaled DOWN to 68%.  For 3x tiny heals that blow all your utility CDs.  It's a bigger tradeoff than you are making it out to be.  And besides, it's not as if your build isn't flexible, I just plan on replacing the healing and some toughness, making a few tweaks to defense and giving it a whirl.

#225 Nonlinear

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:13 AM

I mean, runes and sigils for might and fury, traits, perpetual power and crit boons, why would anyone who invests this much in damage stats not want to get at least a 1:1 return on all of them?

Edited by Nonlinear, 01 December 2012 - 12:14 AM.


#226 Brand

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:43 AM

View PostNonlinear, on 01 December 2012 - 12:00 AM, said:

yeah, they heal if the group members are:

1) taking damage every 20 seconds (if they didn't already get themselves out of danger and heal themselves with their own heal skill that does like 2x more than all of your shouts combined)  

2) within 600 range, 900 for one.  

Oh, and you just blew your three utilities, hope nothing casts burning in the next 20 seconds, would be much more useful to get rid of that then maybe or maybe not heal one or more people for 1.4k.

Your group damage calculations make similar assumptions it must be nice to always be in the best possible situation to maximize your supposed DPS when trying to argue how superior it is.  

The equation I used is straight from the wiki and calculates your expected damage over the long run no matter what you are doing:

http://wiki.guildwar...ki/Critical_hit

There are no other assumptions involved.  You have a lot of precision, it's like your highest stat, you will have more, so what?  At least you will be getting more than 68% of it applied to your damage in the long run and it won't be getting scaled DOWN.  You ARE trying to do DPS, right?

You do melee dps and over the long run your precision AND fury contributions (that you invested in to keep up 100%) to your own DPS are being scaled DOWN to 68%.  For 3x tiny heals that blow all your utility CDs.  It's a bigger tradeoff than you are making it out to be.  And besides, it's not as if your build isn't flexible, I just plan on replacing the healing and some toughness, making a few tweaks to defense and giving it a whirl.
First off, allies are usually taking a lot of random damage or unavoidable damage in my experience, and FGJ + OMM should basically be blown at once, SIO is more situational yes but you can usually pop it every time it's off CD as removing conditions isn't really a thing we want to do too much anyway (I basically pop it whenever I need a quick heal and FGJ/OMM are on CD, it usually removes at least 1 condition from the group when I do this)

However I do see your point, and it would bring a good amount more damage. But where are you going to supplement for that missing survivability?

Knight's gear is static, dunno if you should mess with the Knight's sword. Accessories can be modified to be all berserker's.
I'm getting 45% crit damage with a Berserker's GS, 36% without.

If 50% is the goal, how do you want to get there? How do we want to supplement for the survivability?
I can't think of a way to get a worthwhile extra 5% crit damage...

But if we take 5 points out of Arms and take away the 50% bleed duration trait (Lets be honest, it's only really helping you in solo, it's only increasing bleed length by 1 second, and this is a team oriented build anyway) we could put those 5 points in defense to net ourselves 50 toughness (effective 150 when above 90% Health due to minor) and 50 healing, which might actually work. By doing this we also lost some precision (And since we gained a whole bunch, that is acceptable)

These new changes would also improve the Ancient Karka Shells imo. (Which has disproportionate Crit damage% like the jewels)

So here are the changes I'm seeing:
+136 Power
+71 Precision (4% Crit Rate)
+27% Crit Dmg (About 378 worth of Stats)
+11 Vitality
+3% Magic Find (This doesn't really matter but though I'd throw it in, won't count this stat in the totals below)
-286 Toughness
-135 Healing (Just under 13k heals)
-25 Condition Damage

Total gain of stats: 596
Total loss of stats: 446

We effectively get 150 more stats. Other than doing a good deal more damage, everything should be the same (Might stacking will be easier, though) except a minor loss in healing, a small loss to defense, 1 second less bleed time (And 1 less bleed damage lol).

You can see it here: https://docs.google....hYOWwyZ0E#gid=2

What do you think of this Nonlinear? Good idea for 5 points in defense? (We could put them in Disc for 5%more crit dmg but the minor is wasted and so is the Brawn) Do you like the Karka Shells? How much damage do you think this will gain? How much survivability do you think this will make us lose?

Look forward to hearing from you.

#227 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 11:23 AM

View PostBrand, on 30 November 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:


Third, and quoted from Sithicus; So the healing done from shouts divided by healing power is proportionately higher for lower HP.

It should be noted from that, the Healing Done/Healing Power is skewed higher because of the base 1192 you get from a Shout anyway. As your healing power rises, the proportion of healing from the base component reduces, thus resulting in an apparent diminishing relationship. The actual additional healing you get (excluding the base) divided by healing power is indeed a Linear trend.


View PostNonlinear, on 01 December 2012 - 12:00 AM, said:

yeah, they heal if the group members are:

1) taking damage every 20 seconds (if they didn't already get themselves out of danger and heal themselves with their own heal skill that does like 2x more than all of your shouts combined)  

2) within 600 range, 900 for one.  

Oh, and you just blew your three utilities, hope nothing casts burning in the next 20 seconds, would be much more useful to get rid of that then maybe or maybe not heal one or more people for 1.4k.

The way Vigorous Shouts should correctly be used is a fine art indeed. The builds I run are very Defensive in nature, this allows you to withstand overwhelming pressure very effectively, thus allowing you to choose when you need to use your shouts to heal allies. Blowing all three should rarely be the case and if you have a Sup Soldier Runes, you can very carefully choose when to remove conditions from allies.


View PostBrand, on 01 December 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

First off, allies are usually taking a lot of random damage or unavoidable damage in my experience, and FGJ + OMM should basically be blown at once, SIO is more situational yes but you can usually pop it every time it's off CD as removing conditions isn't really a thing we want to do too much anyway (I basically pop it whenever I need a quick heal and FGJ/OMM are on CD, it usually removes at least 1 condition from the group when I do this)

However I do see your point, and it would bring a good amount more damage. But where are you going to supplement for that missing survivability?

But if we take 5 points out of Arms and take away the 50% bleed duration trait (Lets be honest, it's only really helping you in solo, it's only increasing bleed length by 1 second, and this is a team oriented build anyway) we could put those 5 points in defense to net ourselves 50 toughness (effective 150 when above 90% Health due to minor) and 50 healing, which might actually work. By doing this we also lost some precision (And since we gained a whole bunch, that is acceptable)


What do you think of this Nonlinear? Good idea for 5 points in defense? (We could put them in Disc for 5%more crit dmg but the minor is wasted and so is the Brawn)

Firstly, about the bleed duration trait, I'm sure I told you it wasn't needed, but that's neither here nor there!

Here's why 5 points in defense is not a bad idea for survivability. Disregarding the stats you get, and instead looking at the minor trait, "Thick Skin", this gives you extra armour above 90% Health, which effectively means the first hit you take in combat will come in at reduced damage. This reduced damage hit effectively allows you to react better to the way the fight is going to go, and chances are you won't get severely caught out.

#228 Brand

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 11:42 AM

View PostSithicus Dias, on 01 December 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

Firstly, about the bleed duration trait, I'm sure I told you it wasn't needed, but that's neither here nor there!

Here's why 5 points in defense is not a bad idea for survivability. Disregarding the stats you get, and instead looking at the minor trait, "Thick Skin", this gives you extra armour above 90% Health, which effectively means the first hit you take in combat will come in at reduced damage. This reduced damage hit effectively allows you to react better to the way the fight is going to go, and chances are you won't get severely caught out.
"You dare to impugn my honor? I shall cut you to ribbons!"
I never debated how useful of a trait it was, I merely said that it was the best option with the current set up (Which it was) so Pbbbbthhhhbbtt

Anyway, yes this is basically what I said, an effective 100Toughness, and since we are healing and should have a supporter, etc falling below 90% for extended periods of time is not something I'd assume would happen a lot. If we have 21,622 Health with this option, that means not taking much more than 2k damage at any given time, which is definitely possible in a trash fight, and should be at least maintained around 50% or more of a boss fight.

Thanks for your input Sithicus, Do you have any other comments on this, do you think it's a good idea?
Still hoping to hear from Nonlinear but idk when he'll check the thead, he seems pretty consistent so far though.

#229 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:27 PM

View PostBrand, on 01 December 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

Thanks for your input Sithicus, Do you have any other comments on this, do you think it's a good idea?
Still hoping to hear from Nonlinear but idk when he'll check the thead, he seems pretty consistent so far though.

Sounds good to me. One thing I forgot to mention in my last post was that I quoted something and put it in bold, I was going to say you might not necessarily need to supplement a little survivability loss. As such, since we're talking fairly small stat changes, it could be possible to effectively swap in some crit damage. Another thing to consider of course is your choice of Nourishment. I'm going to model the effect of the Omnomberry food (by taking into account Greatsword attack speed, and HB etc). If it proves to not be overly effective, you might consider A Bowl of Orrian Truffle and Meat Stew . The Endurance regeneration is really great, it allows you to be a lot less conservative with your Endurance. Since the choice of Nourishment is defensive in nature anyway, it's worth considering. Also the Might stack is a nice bonus. Further to this, GS mobility means dodging out of combat barely loses you any combat time, since #3 or #5 will fire you straight back into the fray. Just a point worth considering, I'll see if this Omnomberry model bears any fruit (I cannot believe I just made that pun).

I mean in general, we all have those situations where you get caught "Flat Footed" i.e. with not enough Endurance to dodge, and while Omnomberry does allow you to regain a significant bunch of health in the face of several enemies, avoiding the damage entirely (especially Agony in Fractals), the evasion could potentially prove more useful. It's food for thought at least (What's wrong with me?!)

Edited by Sithicus Dias, 01 December 2012 - 12:28 PM.


#230 Brand

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:46 PM

View PostSithicus Dias, on 01 December 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

Sounds good to me. One thing I forgot to mention in my last post was that I quoted something and put it in bold, I was going to say you might not necessarily need to supplement a little survivability loss. As such, since we're talking fairly small stat changes, it could be possible to effectively swap in some crit damage.
Just seems like a waste though, as the only crit damage we can get at this point is the Disc tree, and going in there means a loss of secondary trait line stat, and a loss of minor trait. Surely 5% crit damage cannot compare to 50(150) toughness and 50 healing?

Look forward to seeing the work on the food, but seeing as how good Omnomberry pies are, you might end up eating your own words. (/rimshot)

#231 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 01:56 PM

View PostBrand, on 01 December 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

Just seems like a waste though, as the only crit damage we can get at this point is the Disc tree, and going in there means a loss of secondary trait line stat, and a loss of minor trait. Surely 5% crit damage cannot compare to 50(150) toughness and 50 healing?

Oh I didn't mean that 5 points in Disc are better than 5 in Defense by saying you could swap in Crit Damage. If you've got those 5 points loose definitely put them in Defense. Also, for easy Crit Damage, there is always Banner of Discipline...

#232 Brand

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 02:07 PM

View PostSithicus Dias, on 01 December 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

Oh I didn't mean that 5 points in Disc are better than 5 in Defense by saying you could swap in Crit Damage. If you've got those 5 points loose definitely put them in Defense. Also, for easy Crit Damage, there is always Banner of Discipline...
I don't see it being better than a shout in this build, and also it's an ugly green piece of poo that is immobile and smelly.

#233 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 03:43 PM

View PostBrand, on 01 December 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

I don't see it being better than a shout in this build, and also it's an ugly green piece of poo that is immobile and smelly.

You're taking it out of context, if you have another Warrior in the team running banners, Discipline is the easiest Crit Damage you will ever see.

#234 Brand

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 03:48 PM

I suppose, I shall still never resort to placing a banner myself >.> And my team doesn't run another Warrior so meh. 2 warriors is really best when the VS warrior is full support, I'd think. Since the banner warrior doesn't benefit a whole lot from extra defenses/healing.

Edited by Brand, 01 December 2012 - 03:51 PM.


#235 Ark211049

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 03:57 PM

wow..some detailed information your providing brand, wonder what you think of the scenario i brought up in relation to nonlinear earlier, soldier armor with berserker trinkets should provide roughly equal stats to your suggestion of knight armor and knight/valkyrie, slight shift of healing towards more actual health in exchange for more power, my early testing shows we would still have ~45% crit chance, what do you think?

#236 Brand

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 04:14 PM

Another important thing to note, is that with these proposed changes, and the extra precision from berserker's gear and the Arm's tree, we have fully supplemented for the 9% crit we lost in the Disc tree, and more than made up for the 10% crit damage loss...

View PostArk211049, on 01 December 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

wow..some detailed information your providing brand, wonder what you think of the scenario i brought up in relation to nonlinear earlier, soldier armor with berserker trinkets should provide roughly equal stats to your suggestion of knight armor and knight/valkyrie, slight shift of healing towards more actual health in exchange for more power, my early testing shows we would still have ~45% crit chance, what do you think?
Well I am the thread starter, detailed information is kinda my job here :P It's hard to get at what you're saying here though. Soldier's armor with Berserker's trinkets would not provide enough crit for the build to function well. Also, Vitality is a much worse stat for us than toughness due to Effective healing and since we have some condition removal (And should have teammates with it). Just for clarification this build uses Knight's armor and Knight's/Cleric's accessories, NOT Knight's/Valk.

All in all, Vitality isn't something we want to specifically go out of our way to get in this build. We have a little bit, which is good, too much would take away from other aspects and just isn't as optimal with this build. Also, crit is very important to the build and you need to have high 60s/low 70s for it to function best.

TL;DR: Knight's > Soldier's

Going to take a nap, I'll be back in a bit. Hope to hear from NL, look forward to your food math Sith, if anyone has any questions please ask but keep in mind the thoughts posted in previous comments are speculation, need to be reviewed, and are NOT part of the build yet. Thanks.

Edited by Brand, 01 December 2012 - 04:19 PM.


#237 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 04:41 PM

View PostBrand, on 01 December 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

I suppose, I shall still never resort to placing a banner myself >.> And my team doesn't run another Warrior so meh. 2 warriors is really best when the VS warrior is full support, I'd think. Since the banner warrior doesn't benefit a whole lot from extra defenses/healing.

Realistically, if you ran 2 Banners, and kept FGJ on your bar, and chose Inspiring Banners and Inspiring Battle Standard, you'd lose some Healing sure, but you'd gain a whole bunch of damage from the Banner buffs too (or 90 Toughness and Vit from Defense), so they're not as bad as you seem to think they are. In a way i'm bringing this full circle to my original Banner build i posted in my thread way back, but all of the Might Stacking would still remain, the only thing that changes would be Healing. Considering your disdain for Soldier Runes for an offensive VS build (understandable, they don't fit in), you wouldn't be losing significant condition removal (sure you might not use SIO). Unless i'm missing something vital, switching out to Banners is far from the worst thing in the world for Sonic Boon

Naturally I agree about a fully defensive VS Warrior allied to Sonic Boon ;)

Edited by Sithicus Dias, 01 December 2012 - 04:42 PM.


#238 Brand

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 04:53 PM

View PostSithicus Dias, on 01 December 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

Realistically, if you ran 2 Banners, and kept FGJ on your bar, and chose Inspiring Banners and Inspiring Battle Standard, you'd lose some Healing sure, but you'd gain a whole bunch of damage from the Banner buffs too (or 90 Toughness and Vit from Defense), so they're not as bad as you seem to think they are. In a way i'm bringing this full circle to my original Banner build i posted in my thread way back, but all of the Might Stacking would still remain, the only thing that changes would be Healing. Considering your disdain for Soldier Runes for an offensive VS build (understandable, they don't fit in), you wouldn't be losing significant condition removal (sure you might not use SIO). Unless i'm missing something vital, switching out to Banners is far from the worst thing in the world for Sonic Boon

Naturally I agree about a fully defensive VS Warrior allied to Sonic Boon ;)
It's quite a bit less healing though, and don't forget that OMM is basically a group wide 5% damage buff, and SIO is our only form of condition removal (very useful).

I just dislike them, and tbh they'd make the GS even less mobile which I am not in favor of.

While you're here, back me up on the Soldier's vs Knight's armor queston that Ark asked
In bed now, so yeah, be back later.

Edited by Brand, 01 December 2012 - 04:57 PM.


#239 Brand

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 05:27 AM

Got a mod to change the title for me, adding the [Build] prefix to better show what this thread is about. You might have to update your links if you have them in any thread!

Edit: Just tested, you do not have to update links. They will still send you to this thread even if the links do not include the build portion of the title.

Edited by Brand, 02 December 2012 - 05:30 AM.


#240 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 11:41 AM

That's not a bad idea you know, I might try and get the titles on my threads changed too, to better reflect the content.




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