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[Build] Sonic Boon - Shout Greatsword

build greatsword shout might fury boon signet of rage survivability heal adrenaline

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#31 Evans

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 10:14 AM

View PostBrand, on 12 November 2012 - 02:07 AM, said:

Dirk has it pretty spot on, but for clarification I'd like to say something.
Half of this build and the reason it is so great is due to the fact that you are stacking tons of Might to supplement your own damage. When you throw in Runes of the Soldier (Lowering your might stacking potential greatly) it becomes a better idea to run a full Cleric's set (Which you can find in Sithicus' thread Here). Reason being that the nature of Soldier's runes is to be more tanky, and be much more supportive of the team via condition removal.

Basically, if you were to put Soldier's runes on this build, alls you would get is a watered down full Cleric support build. However it is very viable to run a build with soldier's runes and Vigorous shouts, just not really this specific one.

Is that so? I'm looking for a good build for my warrior when she hits lv80 and I've been reading to both this one and the cleric support one, and I must say I'm far more inclined to use this build. However I consider the soldier runes a must since I'm going to use shouts.

Wouldn't you consider this a fair middle ground? I don't want to drop too much DPS, but still provide enough support.

#32 Brand

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 12:44 PM

View PostEvans, on 12 November 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

Is that so? I'm looking for a good build for my warrior when she hits lv80 and I've been reading to both this one and the cleric support one, and I must say I'm far more inclined to use this build. However I consider the soldier runes a must since I'm going to use shouts.

Wouldn't you consider this a fair middle ground? I don't want to drop too much DPS, but still provide enough support.

It's just a really bad idea to go for a "Middle ground" type of build ever. I relate to you because I felt very much the same when I started posting here. Fact of the matter is, if you're running a dps/support build (Such as this one) and give yourself runes for survivability (Such as soldier's) you're only going to end up watering down your build. Also let me make it clear that with this build you are providing enough support, infact you're providing a lot more support than a 5 signet build, while still retaining quite a bit of the damage. Not to mention the fact that if you aren't the designated "supporter" (Which you would only be if you ran full cleric's) then you could actually be hurting your teams overall support, even if your aim is to be more supporty. I'll go into detail on this in a moment.

If you change the runes your damage will drop significantly. The Might/Boon Duration runes in this build are a core facet of it's damage output. Soldier's runes are indeed very nice for a shout build, but they are not necessary. You have "Shake It Off!" which is already providing a group condition removal every 20 seconds which is pretty good. With this build, however, you are not focusing on condition removal, and that job should be left to a Mesmer or Guardian in your dungeon group.

Condition removal via shouts is a pretty big deal, but so is 25 stacks of Might, and 60% Boon duration on the buffs you give the party. So you basically have three real options here:
1) Cleric's Shout build with Soldiers
2) An IBS banner regen build, with SIO+FGJ and Soldier's runes.
3) Sonic Boon

For option #1 a Greatsword is a bad idea, so if you want to use a GS and do good damage, options #2 and #3 are your only choices. Option #2 seems nice, but in truth, you get the clunky immobile banner, you heal for 46% less than Sonic Boon, your shouts don't heal and you do way less damage (Though not as bad as Cleric's). All of that just so you can remove 3 conditions every 20 seconds instead of 1. Keep in mind if you are paired with a Guardian or Mesmer, not only does some of yours/their condition removal get wasted (Whoever clicks faster) but you could actually be hurting their build, as some cure conditions by converting them into boons. Less conditions = less boons = less support.

My two copper: Leave the condition removal to the Guardians or Mesmers unless you are going to go all the way with it. Sonic Boon seems like the build for you.

Edited by Brand, 12 November 2012 - 12:55 PM.


#33 Evans

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 12:55 PM

Bleh ¬¬
Curse you and your convincing, italic/coloured arguements!


:D

Edited by Evans, 12 November 2012 - 12:55 PM.


#34 Brand

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 01:00 PM

Haha, well I'm glad you're convinced, always good to see another person going for this build :P and I do enjoy converting people!

Also Evans... Did you play World of Warcraft with that same name?

Edited by Brand, 17 November 2012 - 12:40 PM.


#35 Evans

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 02:03 PM

No, that can't have been me. Haven't played WoW at all actually.

And to be honest, I was attracted to the title because in my head it was already going:

If you're strong, you can fly,
you can reach the other side of the rainbow.
It's alright, take a chance,
'cause there is no circumstance
that you can't handle (when you use your mind)

Sonic Boomn, Sonic
Boomn, Sonic Boomn (trouble
keeps you runnin' faster)
Sonic
Boomn, Sonic Boomn, Somic Boomn (save the
planet from disaster)


Through the dark, to the light
It's a super sonic fight
gotta keep it goin'


Sonic Boomn, Sonic Boomn, Sonic Boomn
(
trouble keeps you runnin' faster)
Sonic
Boomn, Sonic Boomn, Somic Boomn
(save the planet from disaster)
Sonic Boomn, Sonic Boomn, Sonic Boomn
(spinnin' though the world in motion)

#obscuresonic-cdreference

...yea ^_^
Could totally be my theme song now!

#36 ramwee

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 04:02 PM

Btw, I wanna ask how do you counter things like knock down and etc
In terms of PVE and WvW..
I haven't try this out in WvW yet, but PvE it's good.

#37 Oinkeye

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 04:36 PM

View PostBrand, on 10 November 2012 - 01:04 AM, said:

How close exactly? I haven't seen any builds the same as this one, and you basically need everything in here to stay the same or it won't work, or at least not as good :x Everything is just very crucial to this build, the traits, the weapon, the runes, the armor/accessories, the skills, it all needs to stay fairly constant. So I'm just curious about your build, how it works, and maybe even if there is any room for it to improve (No offense meant by this, I am genuinely curious).

Also this build is for PvE/Dungeons though I suppose you could use it in PvP (I haven't tested it in PvP, really.)

Glad you liked the build :D

Here is what I use in wvwvw -

http://www.guildhead...NamaG0xaVcaoRbV

I add Omnomberry Pie for increased regen, and run full berserker armor for a better proc chance.  With the pies, in wvwvw, berserkers actually provides me with better heals via crit proc regen, while pumping out insance burst.  Combined with the shouts, I have more than enough survivability to win 3 v1s regularly.

I run Sigil of Bloodlust on my rifle, since you can switch back to your greatsword and have might stacks AND the bloodlust stacks.  Because of the high crit rate provided by full berserker, I have absolutely no trouble keeping might stacks up in a melee (IN tPVP).  As a result, I have had success running 4 Rune of the Fighter for added power and toughness.  The 20% provided by the 2 set bonus of Runes of Hoelbrak has been enough in the zergy world of wvwvw.

#38 Brand

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 08:46 PM

View PostEvans, on 12 November 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

Could totally be my theme song now!
I could kiss you right now, and I mean that in the most homosexual of ways.
I often find myself humming it.

View Postramwee, on 12 November 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

Btw, I wanna ask how do you counter things like knock down and etc
In terms of PVE and WvW..
I haven't try this out in WvW yet, but PvE it's good.
Well it the build isn't really for WvW, but SIO would surely help you to get back on your feet.

Edited by Brand, 17 November 2012 - 12:42 PM.


#39 Brand

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:04 PM

View PostOinkeye, on 12 November 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

Here is what I use in wvwvw -

http://www.guildhead...NamaG0xaVcaoRbV
I'm not exactly sure how many enemies you are hitting at once or anything in WvW, but I know for a fact that even if you have max crit, your stacks will fall off in 100B downtime. Meaning you 100B, get 25 stacks, and then you have 11-15 by the time you 100B again. So I'm not sure.

Your build does look pretty similar though, but a lot of what defines this build is the rune choice. Without those runes you simply aren't stacking enough might, aren't aiding your allies as much, aren't healing as much (In terms of all allies + you), and most importantly you are probably "wasting" a good deal of precision that you could be converting into power/prowess.

At least that's what I know anyway. Regardless, I hope you enjoyed the build ^^

Edited by Brand, 17 November 2012 - 12:44 PM.


#40 Avorniel

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 07:38 PM

Hi
I will be honest and say I have not been a great GS fan and after reading your replies and well put arguments about GS builds in another thread and how your build helps others I have come to have a look.

I have to say the  build looks really good and I would like to try it out on my Warrior from scratch,I Solo a lot and do mainly events,the build seems able to do that (I may even do a bit of grouping on the side) for me on all accounts and I only PvE.

I have a couple of questions if I may :-

1. Would you be able to sling up a levelling build for the trait location if possible,am still new to this :unsure:

2. For gear during my levelling should I try and follow your Google docs chart and apply it to lower level gear or choose different stats ?

3. Instead of a rifle could I use a bow without changing anything you have in the build description ? (doesn't matter If I can't just like bows better than rifles and they look better with various skins lol )

Thanks in advance

:)

Edited by Avorniel, 13 November 2012 - 08:13 PM.


#41 KrayZ33

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 07:56 PM

View PostBrand, on 12 November 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

I'm not exactly sure how many enemies you are hitting at once or anything in WvW, but I know for a fact that even if you have max crit, your stacks will fall off in 100B downtime. Meaning you 100B, get 25 stacks, and then you have 11-15 by the time you 100B again. So I'm not sure.


I think playing WvWvW will result in enough might stacks by default, given how big the groups can get and all
I wouldn't even trait might on crit in WvWvW to be honest.

Edited by KrayZ33, 13 November 2012 - 07:58 PM.


#42 Dirk Hardpeck

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:38 PM

View PostAvorniel, on 13 November 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:


3. Instead of a rifle could I use a bow without changing anything you have in the build description ? (doesn't matter If I can't just like bows better than rifles and they look better with various skins lol )


For your first major trait in tactics, you can take Stronger Bowstrings (a must IMO for bow) and run a bow instead of a rifle. You can then self-combo with the greatsword as well as apply group might, which is pretty nice....and is what I used to run....however, the rifle makes more sense, as the OP has pointed out, because the longbow depends on using Burst whereas this build's damage output is dependant on not using Burst. You get additional synergy from applying Vulnerability as well. Axe/Shield/Warhorn would be a fine option as well, but again...there's a strong temptation to Eviscerate.

I have to agree that the rifle is the most natural fit here, but there's a little wiggle room for sure.

#43 ohs

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:19 AM

Trying to decide what rifle I want to use with this build, I'm leaning toward a power/prec/cond rifle.

#44 Brand

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:25 AM

So Avorniel wanted to know a good leveling path for traits and gear, and I'm going to give that to her/him. Basically this build is very situated for max level, and until you get there, nothing is going to be the same.

At level 11 up to 40 (First trait point-Next trait book) I would urge you to use a 5 signet build, with Healing Signet, Signet of Stamina, Signet of Might, Signet of Precision, and Signet of Rage. This type of build is sort of boring, but will be very effective for those levels. Taking traits in Arms, for Deep Strikes, and then in Discipline for Heightened Focus, and lastly in Strength for Berserker's Power. Your gear in these levels will not matter at all, just make sure you are building Power/Precision.

From 40 to 60 you should keep building with Signets, grabbing all the traits from before, and also Forceful Greatsword (Arms) and Slashing Power (Strength). Your gear will remain Power/Precision and wont really matter.

At level 60, the game changes. Buy your next trait book, use it, and put your points in the Tactics line, starting with Empowered, then Lung Capacity, and then Vigorous Shouts. Your last 20 will go into Rending Strikes (Arms) and Heightened Focus (Discipline). Your skills at this point should be the same as Sonic Boon ("For Great Justice!", "On My Mark!", "Shake It Off!", and Signet of Rage). You should grab some level 55 Knight's armor from the Trading Post, and upgrade said armor with 2 Major Runes of Strength, 2 Major/Minor runes of Hoelbrak, and 2 Major/minor Runes of Water. You will use those runes until level 80, by using T-Stones that you get from map completion to transfer them on to any new armor you receive. Once you have that armor, you can go out and frolic, pick up and use any Knight's gear you find (Toughness/Power/Precision) that is better than what you have (Make sure to transmogrify your runes over like I said).

At 60-80 you'll want to put your points into Arms for Forceful Greatsword, and then lastly into Berserker's Power once you reach 80. The gear at 80 is mentioned in the spread sheet.

Overall, as you can see, Sonic Boon only starts to work when you hit 60, and then gets fully fledged at 80. Prior to 60 you can really run any build you like, but a 5 signet build will do fine, good damage, and easy to maintain/use.

I hope this answered some questions for you Avorniel, and anyone else who might have also been curious about this. Thanks for reading the thread and encouraging use of the build :D

Edited by Brand, 17 November 2012 - 12:45 PM.


#45 Brand

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:32 AM

View Postohs, on 14 November 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

Trying to decide what rifle I want to use with this build, I'm leaning toward a power/prec/cond rifle.
I recommend Berserker's.

Edited by Brand, 20 December 2012 - 01:57 AM.


#46 Avorniel

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:40 AM

View PostDirk Hardpeck, on 13 November 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:

For your first major trait in tactics, you can take Stronger Bowstrings (a must IMO for bow) and run a bow instead of a rifle. You can then self-combo with the greatsword as well as apply group might, which is pretty nice....and is what I used to run....however, the rifle makes more sense, as the OP has pointed out, because the longbow depends on using Burst whereas this build's damage output is dependant on not using Burst. You get additional synergy from applying Vulnerability as well. Axe/Shield/Warhorn would be a fine option as well, but again...there's a strong temptation to Eviscerate.

I have to agree that the rifle is the most natural fit here, but there's a little wiggle room for sure.

Thanks a Lot for the Reply and detailed answer

:)

View PostBrand, on 14 November 2012 - 06:25 AM, said:

So Avorniel wanted to know a good leveling path for traits and gear, and I'm going to give that to her/him. Basically this build is very situated for max level, and until you get there, nothing is going to be the same.

At level 11 up to 40 (First trait point-Next trait book) I would urge you to use a 5 signet build, with Healing Signet, Signet of Stamina, Signet of Might, Signet of Precision, and Signet of Rage. This type of build is sort of boring, but will be very effective for those levels. Taking traits in Arms, for Deep Strikes, and then in Discipline for Heightened Focus, and lastly in Strength for Berserker's Power. Your gear in these levels will not matter at all, just make sure you are building Power/Precision.

From 40 to 60 you should keep building with Signets, grabbing all the traits from before, and also Forceful Greatsword (Arms) and Slashing Power (Strength). Your gear will remain Power/Precision and wont really matter.

At level 60, the game changes. Buy your next trait book, use it, and put your points in the Tactics line, starting with Empowered, then Lung Capacity, and then Vigorous Shouts. Your last 20 will go into Rending Strikes (Arms) and Heightened Focus (Discipline). Your skills at this point should be the same as Sonic Boon ("For Great Justice!", "On My Mark!", "Shake It Off!", and Signet of Rage). You should grab some level 55 Knight's armor from the Trading Post, and upgrade said armor with 2 Major Runes of Strength, 2 Major/Minor runes of Hoelbrak, and 2 Major/minor Runes of Water. You will use those runes until level 80, by using T-Stones that you get from map completion to transfer them on to any new armor you receive. Once you have that armor, you can go out and frolic, pick up and use any Knight's gear you find (Toughness/Power/Precision) that is better than what you have (Make sure to transmogrify your runes over like I said).

At 60-80 you'll want to put your points into Arms for Forceful Greatsword, and then lastly into Berserker's Power once you reach 80. The gear at 80 is mentioned in the spread sheet.

Overall, as you can see, Sonic Boon only starts to work when you hit 60, and then gets fully fledged at 80. Prior to 60 you can really run any build you like, but a 5 signet build will do fine, good damage, and easy to maintain/use.

I hope this answered some questions for you Avorniel, and anyone else who might have also been curious about this. Thanks for reading the thread and encouraging use of the build :D

Thanks Loads for the detailed levelling build !! you answered everything I needed to know ,so thanks for the time you spent writing it up and again thank you for sharing this build.

:D

#47 radamant

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 01:02 PM

I tend to use similar build, although mine is a bit more geared towards survivability instead of damage. I opted for more toughness instead of increased crit chance. My build skillwise is absolutely the same, traits are a bit different, mine are 20-10-10-30-0. Works very well everywhere.

#48 Evans

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 02:01 PM

View PostBrand, on 12 November 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

I could kiss you right now, and I mean that in the most homosexual of ways.
I often find myself humming it.

I'm flattered but already spoken for :P

#49 Brand

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 02:13 PM

View Postradamant, on 14 November 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

I tend to use similar build, although mine is a bit more geared towards survivability instead of damage. I opted for more toughness instead of increased crit chance. My build skillwise is absolutely the same, traits are a bit different, mine are 20-10-10-30-0. Works very well everywhere.
Care to post your build, using this build calculator? Also please define your gear/runes/sigils. It would seem that you're trying to be an "all around" Warrior, and I can tell you first hand that it's simply not the best you can be. You should really go either damage/support with Sonic Boon, or full support/tank with Cleric's armor and 30 in defense. If you try to go for an in between sort of thing, you're just going to end up watering down one of those builds, not making it stronger.

Edited by Brand, 17 November 2012 - 12:47 PM.


#50 MacG

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:12 PM

I’m sure you all are aware of the ragefest regarding Ascended gear. This post is not intended to bring that tempest to this thread also. However, there is something to be aware of:
  • Ascended gear is the only type that can contain infusions.
  • Infusions mitigate the Agony condition.
  • Agony mitigation will be required for “deep” advancement in the new Fractal dungeon.
  • Ascended gear cannot contain runes.
  • This build (and probably others) are heavily dependent on rune selection.

Therefore, this build, and any others that depend on runes, are not viable for deep advancement in the Fractal dungeon.

I’m sure this is an unintended consequence but the point remains that Ascended gear, as currently described, is not going to be a Good Thing. An easy solution would be to allow Infusions on normal (rune-carrying) gear. Hopefully the developers realize this and there will be a positive result of all this forum angst.

#51 RebelGeek

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:57 PM

Just thought I would chime into the discussion here with my own variation and two cents worth of opinion.

http://www.guildhead...kiH7070M7kNc70V

Above is what I have been running for a while and find it to be very strong in both the damage and support role without giving up too much of either to hit a middle ground. This is surely not intended to be a "better" build, for it does sacrifice might duration which will decrease its potential dps. Given my experiences in game with the build however I do not feel the dps loss is as impactful as the personal survivability loss would be were I to go the other way.

So, an explanation on gear real quick since these skill builders dont reflect PvE stats properly. I run full exotic Knight's Armor, Berserker Trinkets and Berserker weapons. The change from the might duration runes to soldier runes is negated, at least somewhat in my opinion, by the addition of the Bloodlust sigil on the rifle. I don't remember the exact number off the top of my head but I think might is a 33ish(?) increase in power, so a fully stacked sigil is equivalent, power wise, to 7-8 might.

#52 Lilitu

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 04:38 PM

I don't think the 20 points in the shout trait line are worth the 10 percent damage buffs you could be having in both the arms and strength lines, especially since you aren't cleansing .  That's an awful lot of damage you're missing out on.


#53 chuckles79

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 04:46 PM

I've been doing it for a while myself, only I've stacked into Sword/axe rather than GS.  Though I'm thinking maybe I should change my sup sigil (current undead slaying) now that I've finished Orr and will definitely do so when I finish the storyline (I keep putting it off).

The interesting thing, is why not use 6/6 Runes of the warrior, that remove conditions when you shout?  It's not cheap, but the payoff is never worrying about condition damage ever again.

#54 Brand

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 05:53 PM

View PostRebelGeek, on 14 November 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

Just thought I would chime into the discussion here with my own variation and two cents worth of opinion.

http://www.guildhead...kiH7070M7kNc70V

Above is what I have been running for a while and find it to be very strong in both the damage and support role without giving up too much of either to hit a middle ground. This is surely not intended to be a "better" build, for it does sacrifice might duration which will decrease its potential dps. Given my experiences in game with the build however I do not feel the dps loss is as impactful as the personal survivability loss would be were I to go the other way.

So, an explanation on gear real quick since these skill builders dont reflect PvE stats properly. I run full exotic Knight's Armor, Berserker Trinkets and Berserker weapons. The change from the might duration runes to soldier runes is negated, at least somewhat in my opinion, by the addition of the Bloodlust sigil on the rifle. I don't remember the exact number off the top of my head but I think might is a 33ish(?) increase in power, so a fully stacked sigil is equivalent, power wise, to 7-8 might.
Problem is you need to kill 25 enemies without downing at all in order to attain that 8 stacks of might, whereas in this build you just slash a few times and get that haha. As I've pointed out before, going for "Middle ground" is never a really good idea, you just end up watering down either side of the build. At this point you aren't providing enough dps to make use of the Greatsword and might stacking, and your might stacks that you do get are falling off quickly. If you want more survivability than this build, I urge you to go with a full Cleric's/Soldier's Shout build. Otherwise you just end up making sacrifices, in the end, Sonic Boon will end up having more crit, more crit damage, more healing, and more support than your build. The only thing you are really gaining is a tiny bit of survivability. If you want to put points in defense and be more tanky than this build, please do yourself and team a favor by going full tanky support! (This post is not meant to be offensive in any way, just informative. I am not saying your build does not work, it is just less optimal than your other choices.) ALSO please refer to the last comment/answer in this chain for further reasons why running soldiers runes/ being supporty is a bad idea unless you are going to be the fully fledged "supporter" of your group.

View PostLilitu, on 14 November 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

I don't think the 20 points in the shout trait line are worth the 10 percent damage buffs you could be having in both the arms and strength lines, especially since you aren't cleansing .  That's an awful lot of damage you're missing out on.
First off, this build has no condition duration, so you'd be relying almost entirely on teammates to supply bleeds if you have your Greatsword out. If you have your rifle out, then the 10% damage trait in Strength is wasted. I was wrong, build changed.

Secondly, you need those points in Tactics to maintain the 25 stacks of Might on yourself. 30% boon duration is nothing to sneeze at, not to mention the added survivability of 300 Vitality.

View Postchuckles79, on 14 November 2012 - 04:46 PM, said:

I've been doing it for a while myself, only I've stacked into Sword/axe rather than GS.  Though I'm thinking maybe I should change my sup sigil (current undead slaying) now that I've finished Orr and will definitely do so when I finish the storyline (I keep putting it off).

The interesting thing, is why not use 6/6 Runes of the warrior, that remove conditions when you shout?  It's not cheap, but the payoff is never worrying about condition damage ever again.
You need the extra Boon duration and might duration to keep this build running. Also, having a large amount of condition removal when you aren't the "supporter" in your group can be BAD for a team. This is because Mesmers and Guardians both rely on converting Conditions into boons, ergo cleansing them and granting boons, the boons granted (In the case of Guardian) then provide healing. Less conditions = less boons = less healing = less support. Not to mention that if you and a guardian are both running condition removal, one of you is going to end up wasting it a lot of the time. This builds main focus is NOT support, support is merely a bonus we get for putting those 30 points in Tactics. If you want to run a support oriented build, it is best to run Cleric's gear with Soldier's runes, and be the "Supporter" for your team.

Concepts are thoroughly explained in the comments here, a lot of the ideals behind this build are in the text, and if you did not understand something, please feel free to ask another question.

Edited by Brand, 17 November 2012 - 12:50 PM.


#55 Mr Shrimp

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 05:58 PM

Dang...  I opened this up from the front page thinking it was forge recipe discovery for a sword that yelled 'Sonic Boom!' every time you swung it.

#56 Lilitu

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 07:26 PM

View PostBrand, on 14 November 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

First off, this build has no condition duration, so you'd be relying almost entirely on teammates to supply bleeds if you have your Greatsword out. If you have your rifle out, then the 10% damage trait in Strength is wasted.

Secondly, you need those points in Tactics to maintain the 25 stacks of Might on yourself. 30% boon duration is nothing to sneeze at, not to mention the added survivability of 300 Vitality.

For the amount of damage you are losing, please refer to this post by another user:

As you can see, even all the damage traits added together and 9 stacks of Might only barely surpasses the damage gained from 25 stacks of Might. Since you need that Boon duration from Tactics in order to achieve a constant 25 stacks, the points there are indeed worth it. Not even mentioning that you get shouts that heal, 20% reduced shout CDs and the fact that boon duration applies to boons YOU give to allies as well (Meaning all allies will have 3 or 6 stacks of might constantly, and 50% uptime of fury).

I hope this thoroughly defuncts your argument :P

If your crit rate is high enough to give the stacks of might you claim, your crit rate is also high enough to keep bleed on the target. That's not opinion, that's just probability.

Your damage comparison is flawed. You need to start thinking in average might stacks over time rather than an all or nothing approach. If I have 10% boon duration compared to 30% boon duration I do not lose all 25 stacks, I lose 20% of the base 5 sec duration. With the +50% boon duration runes and +30% boon duration traits the greatsword might proc lasts 9 seconds. With the 50% boon duration runes and only 10% boon duration traits it will only last 8 seconds.   That's an 11% decrease in the duration of might stacks. Or an 11% decrease in the time you have the +41.7% damage you say you receive via might (which actually translates closer to an 11% decrease in average stack size).  I would rather do 141.7%+20% damage 89% of the time and 120% damage the other 11% of the time than 141.7% damage 100% of the time, but it won't be as clear cut as this since everything is moving through a temporal dimension.

I could go one further and show you what your average might stack might look like given certain crit chances and attack speeds (hint, default attack with 75% attack speed and might duration at 9 sec compared to 8 sec are within 2 stacks of each other on average) in a nice pretty graph I knocked up in ~10 minutes, but based on your response I'm sure you're about as good as Red Falcon at ignoring data. There is no chance in hell going from 8 secs to 9 secs on the mighty greatsword proc and from 16 secs to 18 secs on the sigil proc increases your average might stack by more than a +20% damage increase. I can absolutely 100% guarantee you will see more damage by taking the 20 points in tactics and putting 10 into strength for +10% damage and at least 5 into arms for +10% damage when bleeding.

Group support and healing are another debate entirely though.

Anyway, I don't like having these sorts of discussions because no matter how many numbers I throw out or graphs and spreadsheets I send via private message - most people reply with something along the lines of "it feels like less damage, you're wrong" and ignore it, so I'll leave this here.


PS - Your use of the word exponentially in the first paragraph is incorrect. I believe the word which best describes the benefit from +power is logarithmic growth.

#57 Siroso

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 08:07 PM

Ignoring all the build discussion, fascinating as it is, I would love to see a video of someone using this build in PvE, WvW or PvP!

#58 MacG

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 08:24 PM

Lilitu knows what he/she is talking about when it comes to numbers, and I believe they are correct in this case also as far as damage optimization. However, that misses the big picture. This isn't just an flat out optimized damage build, this is about optimized damage while providing shout heals, which requires 30 points in tactics. Sure, moving points out of tactics will result in more damage, but that misses the point.

#59 Brand

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 08:53 PM

View PostLilitu, on 14 November 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:

If your crit rate is high enough to give the stacks of might you claim, your crit rate is also high enough to keep bleed on the target. That's not opinion, that's just probability.

Your damage comparison is flawed. You need to start thinking in average might stacks over time rather than an all or nothing approach. If I have 10% boon duration compared to 30% boon duration I do not lose all 25 stacks, I lose 20% of the base 5 sec duration. With the +50% boon duration runes and +30% boon duration traits the greatsword might proc lasts 9 seconds. With the 50% boon duration runes and only 10% boon duration traits it will only last 8 seconds.   That's an 11% decrease in the duration of might stacks. Or an 11% decrease in the time you have the +41.7% damage you say you receive via might (which actually translates closer to an 11% decrease in average stack size).  I would rather do 141.7%+20% damage 89% of the time and 120% damage the other 11% of the time than 141.7% damage 100% of the time, but it won't be as clear cut as this since everything is moving through a temporal dimension.

I could go one further and show you what your average might stack might look like given certain crit chances and attack speeds (hint, default attack with 75% attack speed and might duration at 9 sec compared to 8 sec are within 2 stacks of each other on average) in a nice pretty graph I knocked up in ~10 minutes, but based on your response I'm sure you're about as good as Red Falcon at ignoring data. There is no chance in hell going from 8 secs to 9 secs on the mighty greatsword proc and from 16 secs to 18 secs on the sigil proc increases your average might stack by more than a +20% damage increase. I can absolutely 100% guarantee you will see more damage by taking the 20 points in tactics and putting 10 into strength for +10% damage and at least 5 into arms for +10% damage when bleeding.

Group support and healing are another debate entirely though.

Anyway, I don't like having these sorts of discussions because no matter how many numbers I throw out or graphs and spreadsheets I send via private message - most people reply with something along the lines of "it feels like less damage, you're wrong" and ignore it, so I'll leave this here.


PS - Your use of the word exponentially in the first paragraph is incorrect. I believe the word which best describes the benefit from +power is logarithmic growth.
Disregarding the bleed talk, because you're probably right (Even though bleeds will and do occasionally drop off) and granted for some reason I was thinking you were going to be using different runes (And also the information in that quote isn't mine, I was just referring to it as it seems reliable)

So removing my two blunders, you happen to be right, this will net you quite a bit more damage. However, the build is as it is so that you do not fall beneath 25 stacks very often/at all. Compared to your iteration this would probably be about 3-5 more might stacks on average. Clearly that does not make up for the 20% damage, but when you consider the added boon duration to FGJ you put on allies and the increased uptime of OMM, it just might make up for a majority of that. Not to mention the 200 vitality, 20% shout reduction, and the fact that your shouts heal for 1400 (Used all at once is almost the equal of an extra heal skill for your entire team).

I'm not sure how the extra 3-5 stacks on yourself and the extra stacks/duration on allies come into play, but you're probably right in that you will net more damage. But as MacG states, damage isn't the entire function of this build, and if you take away from the support aspects you start to make having shouts less useful etc etc until you come up with a new build entirely.

It is true what you said about the support aspects being a different debate entirely but I do feel as though the added party damage you gain should be reflected into your calculations for damage (As you wouldn't have as much might or fury up from FGJ, and also not for as long, if you were to take 20 points out of tactics, and also OMM wouldn't be up as often).

Regardless, I concede that your iteration may provide more damage (Would love to know for sure how the group boon duration/shout CD comes into play, could you possibly do some tests/calculations for that?) but it definitely provides less of the other facets of this build, and ultimately would dissolve into another build entirely focused on maximizing damage with no support.

As I've stated many times, the great thing about this build is it's ability to provide support and good damage, while neither of these aspects are wasted in a way that makes you want to lean towards total damage/total support. You can keep both areas without sacrificing so much from one side or the other that you would be inclined to go full damage or full support. When you start to take out traits from tactics and turn them into more damage, your shouts become so much less useful that you don't need them, and whole sections of the build would be better suited in other places to increase your dps.

Personally I dislike Red Falcon, I can see the numbers and understand them. You would end up getting more damage most likely, but at the end of the day this build's niche is not that of maxing self damage, which is as you say "another debate entirely". (Minus the FGJ/OMM duration issue, which may very well increase party damage by enough to make up for your loss)

I hope you do actually read this, and I'm hoping you do test that FGJ/OMM duration thing because I am now curious. Thanks for bringing in more discussion!

P.S. Exponentially there was not meant to be taken entirely literally, it was just a turn of phrase. It was also in reference to the original build Sithicus gave me, which was indeed supposed to "Exponentially" increase damage output (Compared to that of a full support build). However, I live to please. The first paragraph has been edited to properly and literally state the type of growth involved. ;) (This was mostly a joke and with the newest update I have removed the word Logarithmically in favor of just calling it a "damage increase" with no specific type of growth.)

Edited by Brand, 17 November 2012 - 11:41 AM.


#60 Brand

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 09:52 PM

View PostSiroso, on 14 November 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

Ignoring all the build discussion, fascinating as it is, I would love to see a video of someone using this build in PvE, WvW or PvP!
Sadly I don't have the equipment for this, nor the time at the moment.
What do you say my faithful thread dwellers? Any chance one of you can post a video showing off the build? (Please have a silky smooth voice! :D) I will obviously credit you for it and if several of you make videos I will pick the one I think is best, and you will get credit for the video!




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