657 replies to this topic

[Thorfinnr]

Sithicus Dias, on 14 December 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

Taking Soldier Runes puts you down a more supportive path than Sonic Boon, and if that is a way you think you might enjoy playing more, have a read of my thread, which details very defensive methods of support: http://www.guildwars...lds-think-tank/

Right...kind of an evolution...same basic stuff...but with a different flavor...

I like your thread...I check it for updates as well...its one of the things that got me thinking about maybe a kind of hybrid...

Thanks for all the input man.

[Brand]

What Sithicus said, really. (Also, I wasn't going to do 10,000 words because I know Thorfinnr and I don't think I would have to explain it so thoroughly for him :x)
If you read through a few pages of the first comments here, you will see my explanations for why Soldier's Runes are a bad idea for this build. They work fine, but the build is meant to do damage, which Soldier's runes aren't doing. They also work like dominoes and lead you back to Sithicus' original VS build.

Thorfinnr, on 14 December 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

its one of the things that got me thinking about maybe a kind of hybrid...

You might not be noticing it, but Sonic Boon IS the hybrid. The very idea was spawned by discussions in his thread (Read through the whole thing, you'll see). Basically, I wanted the healing that shouts provided, and the mobility/utility. Banners just wouldn't cut it for me (Less healing, less mobility, less utility) and I wanted to use GS. Sithicus brought up the idea of a GS build stacking Might duration and I ran with it

As for your suggestion on traits Thorfinnr, I don't actually know. I never even considered running Healsig or using the Signet Mastery... It would up our crit damage, lower our crit rate... We would lose 150 toughness and 50 compassion... And we would be able to take the might duration runes out of our armor.... Lose 10% damage flat... Boons from SoR would be constant

Hmmm... The loss in toughness/healing would be supplemented by the constant regen... The 10% damage and loss of crit should be mitigated by the 2 free rune slots and 10% crit damage, not to mention constant SoR (It was merely near constant before, this also means we get perma Swiftness)

I guess it depends on two things:
1) Will Might stacking still be able to get to 25 with the 20% loss of duration?
2) What runes/gems do we put into the 2 free slots?

[Thorfinnr]

Brand, on 14 December 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

What Sithicus said, really. (Also, I wasn't going to do 10,000 words because I know Thorfinnr and I don't think I would have to explain it so thoroughly for him :x)

Thanks

Brand, on 14 December 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

I guess it depends on two things:
1) Will Might stacking still be able to get to 25 with the 20% loss of duration?
2) What runes/gems do we put into the 2 free slots?

Something to think on...I haven't tweaked out my lvl 80 set yet, still working on getting mats and the skins I want...so I may take the opportunity to try a couple of things...I'll definately let you know how it works...and I'll be keeping an eye out here.

[Brand]

I was wrong first of all, SoR is still a little from constant... For some reason I was thinking that fury/swiftness from SoR were 48 seconds, they are 45. Wrong again haha, forgot about the 5% nerf to PvP runes of the monk and water. Since I was just doing little test stuff in the mists, the values were off.

Right now the 20% drop in might duration appears to hurt stacking significantly (Perhaps paired with the 50 lost precision). The survivability, however, is better (No food buff).

So... Perhaps removing the runes of Water (Or monk) and then getting the Chocomnomberry buff.. Would give us 5% more boon duration than normal... Healing signet would make up for the loss of Omnomberry pie...

THen all that is left is what to put in the 2 rune slots to make up for damage/crit. Ruby Orbs seem to make the most sense...

It seems we would end up with a basic copy of the first build, except with15-20 more seconds on SoR, +40% MF, a little bit of extra FGJ time, and we also get some extra Crit Dmg (Like 16%)

I don't have time to test it right now though x.x

Edited by Brand, 14 December 2012 - 11:09 PM.

[Sithicus Dias]

Brand, on 14 December 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

Basically, I wanted the healing that shouts provided, and the mobility/utility. Banners just wouldn't cut it for me (Less healing, less mobility, less utility) and I wanted to use GS.

Careful there, claiming less utility is dangerous, since the buffs from banners are irreplaceable. Considering how the buffs don't count as Might, they're free on top for Strength. As for Tactics, that's a free 10% boon duration there. Banners have MORE utility, they give your team unmatched buffs.

One thing I want to try and work into my spreadsheet is some kind of error analysis, to calculate the likelihood of allies receiving healing from shouts, and those receiving the regen boon. I think the results could show Banners being more effective at lower healing power, even though the theory would suggest shouts are better. You also have to consider how Shouts aren't necessarily used off cooldown all the time, and the range is harder to place. Banners can be placed near you and the ranged characters for ensuring everybody benefits.

Also, the mobility is only a small consideration, it doesn't really hamper the build.

Brand, on 14 December 2012 - 10:35 PM, said:

Healing signet would make up for the loss of Omnomberry pie...

Not even close.

[Brand]

Yeah I don't know. I actually really like this idea of using Healing Signet and Signet Mastery, but I've no idea how to implement it. I feel like it's a waste to use the Might Duration runes in the original build, since even like 10% boon duration would be superior (In the original build the 20% might was needed for max upkeep on SoR, but not for this one) Right now (With the 10 points in disc), Signet of Rage is above constant, which means that depending on when you use it, you COULD be screwing yourself out of the 5 might it gives you.

[Xyvir]

Evans, on 12 November 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

Is that so? I'm looking for a good build for my warrior when she hits lv80 and I've been reading to both this one and the cleric support one, and I must say I'm far more inclined to use this build. However I consider the soldier runes a must since I'm going to use shouts.

Wouldn't you consider this a fair middle ground? I don't want to drop too much DPS, but still provide enough support.

I've been running this build for a little while now, and I've found that the boon duration from the runes is a must. I originally ran soldiers runes, but found it almost impossible to get even close to 25 stacks of might, which provides the body of your dps.

I was originally concerned about conditions, but with the added boon duration your DPS is so unbelievably high, everything in PVE drops in seconds. Any condition damage is easily mitigated by the healing from the shouts and the heal skill, and if SIO is used for only debilitating conditions such as high bleeds or long duration burning or poison, then you simply don't take enough damage before the mobs die, and if your teammates are adequately spec'd, you'll be providing plenty of support as is.

[jejaj]

For high lvl fractals it would be better to change Berserkers accessory for Knights? I downed a lot on lvl 20+. Maybe u have any suggested solutions with this build on Hight lvl fractals?

[Tyrant Crimson]

How about Givers? They have healing power, boon dur and toughness, but it sacrifices the damage..

[Brand]

Tyrant Crimson, on 15 December 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

How about Givers? They have healing power, boon dur and toughness, but it sacrifices the damage..

For support players such as Sithicus, that armor is awesome. Since we want damage>healing it isn't really for us. It's sad, if it had Precision instead of Compassion, it would definitely be more appealing...

We lose over 10% crit rating and 200 attack for about 200 compassion and 6% boon duration. That doesn't seem worth it.

However, if we just replace the pieces that are worthwhile (Aka no chest, helm, or legs) then we get 5% less crit and 57 less attack for 22 healing and 3% boon duration, which might be worth it.

When we put that combination in with the signet idea from earlier, we get 49 seconds on SoR which is literally just long enough to keep it up permanently. The might from Forceful GS only drops by 1 second, the might from FGJ only drops by 4, and the might from Sigil of strength only drops by 2 seconds. Of course all of these values are relatively the same without the % added boon duration, minus SoR where that extra second is actually very nice.

If we change the runes to Ruby Orbs ( Just the Fire runes) then we get:

-57 Power
-5% Crit Rating
-150 Toughness (When above 90% Health, all other times it's only minus 50 Toughness)
-50 Condition Damage (2 damage on bleed ticks)
+14% Crit Damage
+22 Compassion
+3% Boon Duration

In addition to these raw stat changes, we lose 10% damage.
We also gain the Signet Mastery trait, allowing us to use SoR permanently (Previously 6 seconds off of permanent) and use Healing Signet to greater effectiveness.

Hmmmm so, opinions? (The changes are absolutely not worth it with the original build, the thing that might make these changes worthwhile is the permanent SoR, which the original build doesn't get)

Of course, if we keep the armor as is then we get:
More effective healing signet
-50 compassion
-50 condition duration
-50 toughness
-1% crit rate
-10% damage
+5 seconds on SoR duration
+15 power
+14% crit damage

Or leave the build as is except with healing signet.

Or leave the build as is period.

Edited by Brand, 15 December 2012 - 11:50 PM.

[Slender Man]

-5 to defense. Being above 90% health and calling that a good trait is like saying Scholar runes are the best DPS runes because they give the most damage while your above 90% health.

-5 to arms. You lose 50 prec and 50 cond damage (Which we don't really care about.)

+10 to Discipline. You gain 10% crit damage, and pick up heightened focus for 9% crit rate

Net gain of 7% Crit rate, +10% crit damage.
Loss of 50 toughness (Eh.)
Loss of 50 compassion (Net loss of 120 HP heal for 3 shouts.)

How has this not been brought up (as far as I can see from the OP.)

To further elaborate, I understand you lose 10% damage while opponent is bleeding, but your crit damage modifier is 2.05x with the bonus in discipline, and with that, the 7% additional crit rate should be better then the 10% bleed damage. Unless you are ensuring you have a team member that can constantly apply perma bleed. But then we're getting into team builds which is something different.

Edited by Slender Man, 16 December 2012 - 08:26 AM.

[Lucav]

take a look at post 70

[sivartnameloc]

Hey, I am still using this build for my warrior, and you inspired me to do a build for my Necro and post it up. Wanted to let you know I used the Spread Sheet template you had and tweaked it towards a necro build. I did give credit to you and Laek in the post for the Spread Sheet. Cheers.

[Slender Man]

Lilitu, on 15 November 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

It's always rounded down as far as I know, so you need 50% from the bleed trait and 20% condition duration to cause 3 secs to turn into 5.

I've updated the first paragraph to compare the 10 in disc to moving those 10 to either arms or str.


If at base stats and no traits you do 102 damage (4% crit, 150% crit damage)..  (This means for every 100 power you gain ~11% of your base damage, which I refer to as 100):
With pve knight gear & zerker trinkets (roughly 26% crit +4% base = 30% crit, 50% damage. Call it ~+614 power, or +66% of base. +15% crit damage.  This is from memory so it'll probably be a bit off) and you get ((166*0.3)*1.65))+((166*0.7)*1) = roughly 200.
Add the ~10% crit you're getting from 20 points in arms, the 9% crit from heightened focus, 10% crit damage from disc, 20% crit from fury, 100 power from traits, 12% damage from zerker...
((177*0.69)*1.75))+((177*0.31)*1) = ~270.

Compare to 10 less crit damage and 9% less crit for the 10% dmg greatsword trait as suggested above:
((188*0.6)*1.65))+((188*0.4)*1) = ~261, plus the 10% from the greatsword trait, 287.

Compare to 10 less crit damage and 9% less crit for the 10% on bleed and +~5% crit from arms as suggested above:
((177*0.65)*1.65))+((177*0.35)*1) = ~251, plus the 10% from the bleed trait, 276.

The difference here is pretty close. When you factor in longer bleeds, slightly higher bleed damage and increased might proc chance it's probably in Arms favour, especially since the 10% dmg applies to all weapons and not just greatsword.

Except this fails to take into example where a) The build with higher crit rate will have more might stacks, b)you only gain that increased damage while the opponent is bleeding, in a situation where there are multiple targets or your on your own, there is no way for yourself to 100% ensure the opponent is always bleeding, where as with the 10 disp over the 5 arms 5 def, you always gain that increased damage when you crit, and you have an increased chance of critting.

ALSO. The food you are likely to be using in this build is either going to be

+100 Prec, +10 crit damage
OR
66% chance to steal life on Crit +70 prec.

Either way, crit rate becomes more valuable as a stat in this build because you gain might on crit. The more crit rate you have, the more might stacks you have on average. This even lets you get away with using a Superior Sigil of Air/Blood for MUCH more DPS, since you'll be able to hold the 20~ might stacks without the sigil of strength.

[Brand]

Might stacks are already 25 (The limit) on average. Also, saying that you can't ensure that bleeds will be kept up when you are alone is like saying you can't ensure shouts will do a lot when you're alone. The build is team oriented and best for dungeons (It can be used just fine in random PvE, but surely 100 other things are better no matter what in that situation.) so the bleeds will always be up.

However, that post was regarding the build without berserker's gear, so at this point you MAY get more dps by going Disc.

Removing Sigil of Strength reduces your average might stacks by quite a lot though. Basically because the stacks from it last for 18 seconds (Rather than 9 seconds from Forceful GS)

sivartnameloc, on 16 December 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

Hey, I am still using this build for my warrior, and you inspired me to do a build for my Necro and post it up. Wanted to let you know I used the Spread Sheet template you had and tweaked it towards a necro build. I did give credit to you and Laek in the post for the Spread Sheet. Cheers.

Thanks, and good luck!

[Corkscrew24]

I have been using this build for some time and I enjoy it very much. However, I will soon be able to get ascended rings to go with this build and I was wondering which stats I should get? Should I go for a beserkers equivalent, or try something like solaria which give more stats overall but less to each individual one? Thanks for the build

[Thorfinnr]

Brand, on 17 December 2012 - 01:45 AM, said:

Might stacks are already 25 (The limit) on average. Also, saying that you can't ensure that bleeds will be kept up when you are alone is like saying you can't ensure shouts will do a lot when you're alone. The build is team oriented and best for dungeons (It can be used just fine in random PvE, but surely 100 other things are better no matter what in that situation.) so the bleeds will always be up.

However, that post was regarding the build without berserker's gear, so at this point you MAY get more dps by going Disc.

Removing Sigil of Strength reduces your average might stacks by quite a lot though. Basically because the stacks from it last for 18 seconds (Rather than 9 seconds from Forceful GS)

I'm liking the idea of Perma-SoR.

just an observation here:

I do NOT have my max set of armor and Runes set up yet...I hover at @15-20 might...granted it fluxuates regularly...but when I have multiple enemies to fight...I stay at 18-20, and I have hit 25 on numerous occasions. I compensate by using, as recommended, Sigil of Bloodlust on my Rifle...and i stack the power bonus to 25. I'm not sure how it affects mathematically, but I still hit pretty darn hard even with the equip/gear I am currently using.

I'm still thinking outloud here...what do you think about Changing Knight's armor for Beserker? Here's my thoughts: IF we go with SIgnet Mastery and go back to a more efficient Healing Signet, would Beserker help boost our damage output back up, increasing the crits and the damage they do(which, and please correct me if I am wrong, wouldn't that help us keep the Might stacks churning?).

Corkscrew24, on 18 December 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

I have been using this build for some time and I enjoy it very much. However, I will soon be able to get ascended rings to go with this build and I was wondering which stats I should get? Should I go for a beserkers equivalent, or try something like solaria which give more stats overall but less to each individual one? Thanks for the build

I'm gonna have to come down on the side of sticking with the Beserker, although that is just gut...Brand or SIthicus may be able to justify a change statistically. But if you are going with the Knight's Armor as recommended, you really do need the Beserker accessories to boost the DPS back into the "D@*&n that hits hard" range.

[Brand]

Berserker's armor would basically kill our Survivability. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that Permanent SoR thing isn't going to happen, we just lose way too much. We already get near permanent Might from it, and permanent Fury, so the only real bonus would be the permanent swiftness. Not really worth it. IF we do put in Healsig, it won't be with the Sig Mastery trait. I'm still deciding if Heal Sig would be better than Surge without (Or even with) the trait.

As for the gear question posted by Corkscrew:

The reason we take Berserker's Gear is for the Crit damage, plain and simple. Since Solaria gives a ton of stats that we can use, and 5% crit damage (only 3% less than a Berserker's stats item), it's best to use it. Similar reasoning was applied to Ancient Karka Shell. However, I wouldn't double up and use Lunaria as well, best option is probably to use one of the two and then a Berserker's equivalent.

Keep in mind, if Crit damage is 14 stat points each % (Average) then Solaria gives 304 stats (Not counting Magic Find), while something like Red ring of Death gives 283.

Edited by Brand, 18 December 2012 - 07:02 PM.

[Thorfinnr]

Brand, on 18 December 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

Berserker's armor would basically kill our Survivability. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that Permanent SoR thing isn't going to happen, we just lose way too much. We already get near permanent Might from it, and permanent Fury, so the only real bonus would be the permanent swiftness. Not really worth it. IF we do put in Healsig, it won't be with the Sig Mastery trait. I'm still deciding if Heal Sig would be better than Surge without (Or even with) the trait.

Gotcha...I'm good wiht the armor...like I said, it was just a thought...now onto the healing...without the trait...may be a bit dicey...Surge has "pulled my fat out of the fryer" on more than one occasion...and even wiht its cooldown...oyu almost can't beat its spike heal...judst my $.02...

Brand, on 18 December 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

The reason we take Berserker's Gear is for the Crit damage, plain and simple. Since Solaria gives a ton of stats that we can use, and 5% crit damage (only 3% less than a Berserker's stats item), it's best to use it. Similar reasoning was applied to Ancient Karka Shell. However, I wouldn't double up and use Lunaria as well, best option is probably to use one of the two and then a Berserker's equivalent.

Great...now I gotta find one of those blasted rings...lol

[Stigma]

How efficient is Sonic Boon build for soloing? You can build this great warrior based around shouts, but for a solo player no one hears his shouts.

[Brand]

Works fine for me You still get the self heals, which are a nice buffer in PvE, and since the other aspects of the shouts are more meant for your dps, those can only help. I mean, obviously there are better alternatives if you wanted to solo and nothing else, but Sonic Boon won't break you in that aspect.

[Sithicus Dias]

Stigma, on 19 December 2012 - 06:37 AM, said:

How efficient is Sonic Boon build for soloing? You can build this great warrior based around shouts, but for a solo player no one hears his shouts.

Solo-ing is face roll anyway, you can pretty much run around with even the most crazy traits and still lol your way through everything.

[Stigma]

Sithicus Dias, on 19 December 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

Solo-ing is face roll anyway, you can pretty much run around with even the most crazy traits and still lol your way through everything.

Hmm i'm going to redefine soloing a bit. When I say Solo i meant it in the most traditional RPG-MMO sense where you are soloing Veterans and Champions in this game. I don't mean solo farming maps.

Edited by Stigma, 19 December 2012 - 11:09 AM.

[Sithicus Dias]

Stigma, on 19 December 2012 - 11:09 AM, said:

Hmm i'm going to redefine soloing a bit. When I say Solo i meant it in the most traditional RPG-MMO sense where you are soloing Veterans and Champions in this game. I don't mean solo farming maps.

Ok, apologies for the initial blunt response in that respect. Soloing Veterans is very do-able, you're durable enough to take damage well, as well as top your health up a bit, but it's your high damage output, quickly, that wins those fights.

As for champions, in general they're pretty much not do-able without ranged kiting. Standing toe-to-toe almost always ends in tears. I'm struggling to think of examples where Champions can truly be solo-ed (bar some "pretend" Champions in Fractals).

[Brand]

The starter bosses in level 1 instances are champions that can be solo'ed....
That's about it. Though you CAN solo champions in lower level areas (Below 35, I'd say).
Trying to solo Champions in Orr or other level 80 zones? Forget it. Takes way too much time and kiting (Even if you are using a ranged weapon/class).

Anet did a pretty good job of making champions unsoloable, it's to encourage social encounters and teamwork.

[nokkers3]

Superior sigil of strength is around 7g+ right now.  Any suggestions to what I can do temporarily?

[Stigma]

nokkers3, on 20 December 2012 - 06:18 AM, said:

Superior sigil of strength is around 7g+ right now.  Any suggestions to what I can do temporarily?

It would cost me about 5.1 Gold to craft one if I went for the Onyx core method using skill points.. or it would be  6.14 gold if I just crafted it buying Onyx lodestones straight up.

Edited by Stigma, 20 December 2012 - 10:51 AM.

[Thorfinnr]

nokkers3, on 20 December 2012 - 06:18 AM, said:

Superior sigil of strength is around 7g+ right now.  Any suggestions to what I can do temporarily?

Now it does not max out the bonus...but I use a Major SIgil of Strength for now...the price diff is huge(I think I got mine for around 20-30 silver)...but for now, until I can salvage one off somehting I find...I'm with you in not wanting to pay that much for it.

[Sithicus Dias]

Thorfinnr, on 20 December 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

Now it does not max out the bonus...but I use a Major SIgil of Strength for now...the price diff is huge(I think I got mine for around 20-30 silver)...but for now, until I can salvage one off somehting I find...I'm with you in not wanting to pay that much for it.

if you keenly observe the TP, and are very lucky, you might be able to buy a weapon with Sup Strength on it for less than the sigil cost itself, then use a Black Lion Kit on it, might even get some ecto to boot.

[Thorfinnr]

Sithicus Dias, on 20 December 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

if you keenly observe the TP, and are very lucky, you might be able to buy a weapon with Sup Strength on it for less than the sigil cost itself, then use a Black Lion Kit on it, might even get some ecto to boot.

True...unfortunately the cheapest I have found a weapon with a superior strength, has still been like 5G...and i be just a poor wandering warrior out to do good in the world... and fights some dragonsez...

But I do check, and am hoping to find one on the cheap...and Sith is right...you do have to be dilligent.