657 replies to this topic

[Brand]

Zahrim, on 17 February 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

Brand, I've skimmed over this entire thread while my dog is chewing on my leg, my 3yo son is hitting me with Power Ranger moves and my wife is telling me about her latest funny family Facebook posts...so I may have missed this:

What Ascended accessory am I spending my 30 Laurels on using your build?

Thanks in advance, and thank you for this build, it made me pick up GW2 after a long hiatus and dust off my warrior.

No problem haha, it has been addressed  but it would seem you have your reasons to miss it The Neck you should get should either have Berserker or Cavalier stats. I recommend Cavalier. I also recommend that you get a Utility infusion (15% Karma is a great boost) and so that leaves you with the options of Distinguished Circle of Logic (Berserker) or Jalis Ironhammer's Crest (Cavalier; Recommended)

You're welcome haha, glad you like the build. I would urge you to give it the complete read and perhaps even read the comments though, if you have time.

[Zahrim]

Much appreciated, thanks for helping to make this community great.

[Raemyi]

I've really been trying to wrap my head around the theory behind this build lately, so I've taken to testing it out firsthand in the Mists (since I lack the resources to actually go out and buy the right gear, in PvE).  As a close approximation, I'm using Berserker gear (the catch-all PvP amulet version) with 2 water, 2 monk, and 2 fire runes, along with a greatsword of Strength for the extra might proc.  I'm left with a tiny bit more power/precision than the spreadsheet, around 50% crit rate, 10% less boon duration than a proper Sonic Boon, and a bit less survivability.  I can't quite seem to maintain the build's advertised 25 stacks of might on the target golems, though.

I can occasionally hit that number, but only very briefly.  For Great Justice, extended by boon duration, offers an effective 6 permanent stacks of might.  Signet of Rage gives 3, but only about 75% of the time.  A typical Hundred Blades will give me 6 stacks, which will last until Hundred Blades recharges.  That gives me a fairly consistent 15 stacks, which begin to fade away in about 6 seconds.  Grabbing another 10 stacks of might while Hundred Blades is cooling down is quite difficult, not to mention doing so consistently throughout a battle.  Wading into a big group of a dozen foes makes things significantly easier, but even *then* I often see the stack count dropping below 20.

So, am I just doing it wrong?  Is this build just flat-out not meant to be used against single, lone opponents?  Am I taking phrases like "constant 25 stacks of might" a bit too literally?  Or - and this is what worries me - is stacking might just a fundamental warrior skill that I lack, making this build one that I could never use to its fullest potential?

[Brand]

Raemyi, on 17 February 2013 - 11:41 PM, said:

I've really been trying to wrap my head around the theory behind this build lately, so I've taken to testing it out firsthand in the Mists (since I lack the resources to actually go out and buy the right gear, in PvE).  As a close approximation, I'm using Berserker gear (the catch-all PvP amulet version) with 2 water, 2 monk, and 2 fire runes, along with a greatsword of Strength for the extra might proc.  I'm left with a tiny bit more power/precision than the spreadsheet, around 50% crit rate, 10% less boon duration than a proper Sonic Boon, and a bit less survivability.  I can't quite seem to maintain the build's advertised 25 stacks of might on the target golems, though.

I can occasionally hit that number, but only very briefly.  For Great Justice, extended by boon duration, offers an effective 6 permanent stacks of might.  Signet of Rage gives 3, but only about 75% of the time.  A typical Hundred Blades will give me 6 stacks, which will last until Hundred Blades recharges.  That gives me a fairly consistent 15 stacks, which begin to fade away in about 6 seconds.  Grabbing another 10 stacks of might while Hundred Blades is cooling down is quite difficult, not to mention doing so consistently throughout a battle.  Wading into a big group of a dozen foes makes things significantly easier, but even *then* I often see the stack count dropping below 20.

So, am I just doing it wrong?  Is this build just flat-out not meant to be used against single, lone opponents?  Am I taking phrases like "constant 25 stacks of might" a bit too literally?  Or - and this is what worries me - is stacking might just a fundamental warrior skill that I lack, making this build one that I could never use to its fullest potential?

Well first, a couple of things:
10% Boon duration is almost 2 runes worth, it can't be so easily forgotten.
SoR gives 5 stacks of might, not 3, and they should last well over 75%. THe full build allows those to last 54 seconds, which is 90%, with -10% boon duration, you sit at 51 seconds which is 85%.

Now, you say you are using Sigil of Strength, and you only have 70% boon duration. That gives your Forceful Greatsword trait 8.5 seconds of might per crit, you get 17 seconds of might 33% cahnce on crit from the sigil, and you have almost permanent 11 stacks. With your Crit rate of 70% (With Fury) and with GS hitting 6 times every 5 seconds on auto attack, you should be generating about 4 stacks of might per 5 seconds. Since the stacks last for 8.5 seconds that means you should be getting about 6 stacks from that trait from your auto attacks alone. Throw in 100B and that number goes up quite a bit. And in a 33% chance on our 70% chance to crit and you get a 23.1 chance to proc might with the Strength Sigil. At 6 attacks per 5 seconds, this gives a bit over 1 stack of might per 5 seconds. These stacks last for 17 seconds, so thats about 4 might stacks total, again this number goes up if you're using 100B.

So, even on auto attack with the build you were using there, you should have had 6+5+6+4 = 21 might stacks. Add in 100B and you can no doubt hit the Might ceiling.

As for what you're doing wrong, I'm not sure. The build is meant to give you 25 stacks of might on a single target. Phrases like that are menat to be taken with a small grain of salt, since its dependent on the crits, your skill, and your ability to keep hammering consistently on the enemy, but otherwise they are pretty accurate.

You can't "Lack" the ability to stack might. The build does it all for you as long as you hit FGJ and SoR, use 100B everytime it's up, and autoattack. Perhaps you weren't watching well enough or something? I'm unsure what to tell you, but considering you didn't even know SoR gave 5 stacks of might, it's possible that you were missing some other things :x

To make sure my math was right, I went to the mists and tested it myself. With all of the mentioned things, I can get up to 25 stacks of might, hovering at about 22 stacks most often while only using the Autoattack.

I'm sorry Raemyi, but there is no reason it should be difficult for you to get 25 stacks when you are using 100B if I can get to it using only the autoattack :/ This isn't to say you "can't" do it either, it is to say that it is guarenteed that you got 20-25 might stacks during your golem encounter. Unless you stopped attacking, or were moving around/not paying attention, there is no possible way for you to have been stuck at 15 stacks and only getting 25 rarely. You literally could have just sat there and autoattacked it. So you're either lying (I hope not, as that can only mean sad things D:) or perhaps you weren't paying attention well enough, etc?

Edited by Brand, 18 February 2013 - 03:34 AM.

[Experiment Gone Bad]

Sup brand, i don't know if you've read my comment one page earlier, but if you could look into it, that would be much appreciated.

Basically it's:
Why Sonic Boon Warrior? Why just not roll a guardian?
What are the advantages of this build over a similarly specced shout guardian?
Would you still recommend this for organized groups (which is the topic of debate on another thread), who know what they're doing?

[Brand]

Experiment Gone Bad, on 18 February 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

Sup brand, i don't know if you've read my comment one page earlier, but if you could look into it, that would be much appreciated.

Basically it's:
Why Sonic Boon Warrior? Why just not roll a guardian?
What are the advantages of this build over a similarly specced shout guardian?
Would you still recommend this for organized groups (which is the topic of debate on another thread), who know what they're doing?

Ah no, I completely skipped over it by accident D: Sorry about that. If it's not too much trouble, could you please provide an example build for a guardian? I won't pretend that I know all the ins and outs of guardians, it's not my class, and a reference would be a great tool for answering your questions!

Edited by Brand, 18 February 2013 - 08:15 AM.

[Raemyi]

Brand, on 18 February 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

Well first, a couple of things:
10% Boon duration is almost 2 runes worth, it can't be so easily forgotten.
SoR gives 5 stacks of might, not 3, and they should last well over 75%. THe full build allows those to last 54 seconds, which is 90%, with -10% boon duration, you sit at 51 seconds which is 85%.

Now, you say you are using Sigil of Strength, and you only have 70% boon duration. That gives your Forceful Greatsword trait 8.5 seconds of might per crit, you get 17 seconds of might 33% cahnce on crit from the sigil, and you have almost permanent 11 stacks. With your Crit rate of 70% (With Fury) and with GS hitting 6 times every 5 seconds on auto attack, you should be generating about 4 stacks of might per 5 seconds. Since the stacks last for 8.5 seconds that means you should be getting about 6 stacks from that trait from your auto attacks alone. Throw in 100B and that number goes up quite a bit. And in a 33% chance on our 70% chance to crit and you get a 23.1 chance to proc might with the Strength Sigil. At 6 attacks per 5 seconds, this gives a bit over 1 stack of might per 5 seconds. These stacks last for 17 seconds, so thats about 4 might stacks total, again this number goes up if you're using 100B.

So, even on auto attack with the build you were using there, you should have had 6+5+6+4 = 21 might stacks. Add in 100B and you can no doubt hit the Might ceiling.

As for what you're doing wrong, I'm not sure. The build is meant to give you 25 stacks of might on a single target. Phrases like that are menat to be taken with a small grain of salt, since its dependent on the crits, your skill, and your ability to keep hammering consistently on the enemy, but otherwise they are pretty accurate.

You can't "Lack" the ability to stack might. The build does it all for you as long as you hit FGJ and SoR, use 100B everytime it's up, and autoattack. Perhaps you weren't watching well enough or something? I'm unsure what to tell you, but considering you didn't even know SoR gave 5 stacks of might, it's possible that you were missing some other things :x

To make sure my math was right, I went to the mists and tested it myself. With all of the mentioned things, I can get up to 25 stacks of might, hovering at about 22 stacks most often while only using the Autoattack.

I'm sorry Raemyi, but there is no reason it should be difficult for you to get 25 stacks when you are using 100B if I can get to it using only the autoattack :/ This isn't to say you "can't" do it either, it is to say that it is guarenteed that you got 20-25 might stacks during your golem encounter. Unless you stopped attacking, or were moving around/not paying attention, there is no possible way for you to have been stuck at 15 stacks and only getting 25 rarely. You literally could have just sat there and autoattacked it. So you're either lying (I hope not, as that can only mean sad things D:) or perhaps you weren't paying attention well enough, etc?

Alright, I went over your post and tried a few more times, and I think I've gotten to the bottom of the problem.  Since the build relies on boon duration to get your might stacks to "overlap" a bit, there's a bit of a rev-up time when you first engage an opponent - you won't get your full 25 stacks until a few seconds into the fight.  Problem is, target golems *die* in a few seconds, and then you have to walk over to the next one.  Once I took that into account and made darn sure that I had my targets lined up one after the other, I started to see 25 a lot more often.  So, in summary... whoopsie.

I also made a few silly mistakes, some of which I only caught in the midst of writing this post.  +Might Duration from the fire runes isn't reflected in the tool tip, so that's why I thought I was getting 45 instead of 50+ seconds of might from Signet of Rage.  Also, yes, as you pointed out, I misread the "5" as a "3".  ...Well, you know, the edge of the icon bisects the number, so... they kind of look similar, right?  Ehn, this is why I'm not the one coming up with these builds.  Sorry about that.  Carry on.

[Experiment Gone Bad]

Example AH Guardian Build : armor/traits/trinkets/food
Skill Build : skills/list of boons and their duration


If you'd notice, the armor is completely a copy of Sonic Boon, sans a few trinket differences. It loses 25% boon duration due to the trait tree, but make up for using Omnom Creams (when i was using Sonic Boon i was using Ghosts/Pies/Sharpening Stone, the build doesn't really state your preference).

Edited by Experiment Gone Bad, 18 February 2013 - 08:46 AM.

[Sithicus Dias]

Zahrim, on 17 February 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

What Ascended accessory am I spending my 30 Laurels on using your build?

Don't spend them until the Patch lands, they might add more stuff.

[Brand]

Raemyi, on 18 February 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

Alright, I went over your post and tried a few more times, and I think I've gotten to the bottom of the problem.  Since the build relies on boon duration to get your might stacks to "overlap" a bit, there's a bit of a rev-up time when you first engage an opponent - you won't get your full 25 stacks until a few seconds into the fight.  Problem is, target golems *die* in a few seconds, and then you have to walk over to the next one.  Once I took that into account and made darn sure that I had my targets lined up one after the other, I started to see 25 a lot more often.  So, in summary... whoopsie.

I also made a few silly mistakes, some of which I only caught in the midst of writing this post.  +Might Duration from the fire runes isn't reflected in the tool tip, so that's why I thought I was getting 45 instead of 50+ seconds of might from Signet of Rage.  Also, yes, as you pointed out, I misread the "5" as a "3".  ...Well, you know, the edge of the icon bisects the number, so... they kind of look similar, right?  Ehn, this is why I'm not the one coming up with these builds.  Sorry about that.  Carry on.

You're fine haha, easy mistakes to make. But just for your sake, I'mma ask you to do something. Go to the PvP Weapon vendor in the mists, and  on the THIRD tab there are STEADY weapons. They are purple quality and do awful damage. These are what people use to test so they can kill a Golem slower. Pick on of those up, fit it with the sigil and go try again. I guarantee you'll see improvement ^^

Experiment I will get back to you later if that's alright. I've still yet to sleep haha. Also, the food we use is in the spreadsheet, just not mentioned in the build ^^

Edited by Brand, 18 February 2013 - 10:28 AM.

[vove]

Hi, I have just registered to thank you for the effort and time you put into elaborating it, explaining how it works and preparing in general just to share with the rest of us. This build is simply awesome.

I was looking for a decent build for some time and this one is perfect for me, covers all my needs. I just started collecting gear and I'm still running in rare crafted armor with rare crafted weapons + rare accesories I bought of trading post and this build is amazing (I run in yellows but I have already the runes needed). Only thing that can kill you is your own recklessness. I have 100% fury uptime for myself and during combat I buff my attack from 2789 to ~3600 with no problems and of course the most important: I'm great supporter for my team with heals, buffs and debuffs. I on myself have around 25 stacks during fights, 14 seems to be a minimum you will have at any given moment.

Again thank you very much for sharing this all with us.

[Thorfinnr]

Brand, on 17 February 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

Clip
The Neck you should get should either have Berserker or Cavalier stats. I recommend Cavalier. I also recommend that you get a Utility infusion (15% Karma is a great boost) and so that leaves you with the options of Distinguished Circle of Logic (Berserker) or Jalis Ironhammer's Crest (Cavalier; Recommended)
Clip

OK...I just want to clarify something...since I already have the Original Cavalier Backpiece(Non Ascended) with a Zerker Jewel(Ruby Orb), you would suggest going with the a Zerker Necklace? (And I'll just go for the Cavalier Ascended backpiece when I get to the point of replacing the original.)

Also interested to hear your thoughts about Utility vs. Infusion with +Agony Resist...I get Utility for open world...but better Agony Resist for higher FotM is kinda necessary...

[Raemyi]

Brand, on 18 February 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

You're fine haha, easy mistakes to make. But just for your sake, I'mma ask you to do something. Go to the PvP Weapon vendor in the mists, and  on the THIRD tab there are STEADY weapons. They are purple quality and do awful damage. These are what people use to test so they can kill a Golem slower. Pick on of those up, fit it with the sigil and go try again. I guarantee you'll see improvement ^^

Experiment I will get back to you later if that's alright. I've still yet to sleep haha. Also, the food we use is in the spreadsheet, just not mentioned in the build ^^

Good suggestion, I tried it out.  I ended up hovering around 23 stacks most of the time, and I suppose the extra 10% boon duration would cover the rest.  It still felt difficult - one wrong move, and I would drop back down to <20, but at least it's possible.  I do start to wonder whether this build is really for me, though, since I always find myself falling back on my rifle, and since I tend to be too cheap to buy food.

Silly excuses, I know, but I'm curious just how viable you would count this build as being if it's not played exactly right.  If I can't keep the 25 stacks up all the time, then am I better off with a different build?  Obviously the best thing would just be to get better at my profession, but this is a theoretical question.

Edited by Raemyi, 18 February 2013 - 07:52 PM.

[Brand]

vove, on 18 February 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

I on myself have around 25 stacks during fights, 14 seems to be a minimum you will have at any given moment.

Again thank you very much for sharing this all with us.

High crit is needed for the full 25, but after you have about 60-70% they should come easily. Glad you like the build and I hope to hear from you again once you get all the gear

Thorfinnr, on 18 February 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

OK...I just want to clarify something...since I already have the Original Cavalier Backpiece(Non Ascended) with a Zerker Jewel(Ruby Orb), you would suggest going with the a Zerker Necklace? (And I'll just go for the Cavalier Ascended backpiece when I get to the point of replacing the original.)

Also interested to hear your thoughts about Utility vs. Infusion with +Agony Resist...I get Utility for open world...but better Agony Resist for higher FotM is kinda necessary...

Yes you can do that, I replied to another guy in the same situation a page back Thorfinnr. As for the agony resist, I hadn't noticed that the utility infusions lack it :x I'm not sure in this case. I'm still going to get the Karma though, I don't plan on going super hugely far in fractals, and that karma gain is godly.

Raemyi, on 18 February 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

Good suggestion, I tried it out.  I ended up hovering around 23 stacks most of the time, and I suppose the extra 10% boon duration would cover the rest.  It still felt difficult - one wrong move, and I would drop back down to <20, but at least it's possible.  I do start to wonder whether this build is really for me, though, since I always find myself falling back on my rifle, and since I tend to be too cheap to buy food.

Silly excuses, I know, but I'm curious just how viable you would count this build as being if it's not played exactly right.  If I can't keep the 25 stacks up all the time, then am I better off with a different build?  Obviously the best thing would just be to get better at my profession, but this is a theoretical question.

Keep in mind that you also were only Autoattacking, so you would lose less stacks and gain more if you were using your other skills, namely 100B. The food doesn't make this build, it just helps. Many people use this build and probably don't play it exactly right haha. Also, it's pretty much an immutable fact that when you are attacking, you will have 25 stacks of might. The only time you don't is at the very start of a fight when you are getting your FGJ stacks. AS for your ability to play this build and be successful? That's on you, you should do what you like doing and are comfy with!

[Brand]

Post moved to next page: http://www.guildwars...d/page__st__600

Edited by Brand, 21 February 2013 - 12:49 AM.

[Raemyi]

Brand, on 19 February 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

Keep in mind that you also were only Autoattacking, so you would lose less stacks and gain more if you were using your other skills, namely 100B. The food doesn't make this build, it just helps. Many people use this build and probably don't play it exactly right haha. Also, it's pretty much an immutable fact that when you are attacking, you will have 25 stacks of might. The only time you don't is at the very start of a fight when you are getting your FGJ stacks. AS for your ability to play this build and be successful? That's on you, you should do what you like doing and are comfy with!

Duly noted, though for the record I *was* using 100b.

[Brand]

Raemyi, on 19 February 2013 - 09:27 PM, said:

Duly noted, though for the record I *was* using 100b.

Well thanks for mentioning that then >.> but even so, in normal PvE you get a bit more crit% and boon duration, and also some party members will probably be giving you a few (Like an AH guardian!)

[Loperdos]

Brand, on 19 February 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

Teh Brand maths...

The two builds really do synergize perfectly.

I hope you enjoyed this post and all the work that went into it! It took me a good four hours to write up. I hope it's been informative for  you (I also learned a lot ^^) and that I have thoroughly answered your question to the best of my abilities. If there is any issue with this response or you have a question on something PLEASE do not hesitate to leave another comment! Thanks for the great question!

Also just a note, I say "My build" and "your build" just because it's easier, I don't mean anything by phrasing it like that.

I definitely agree with this, and not just because of the maths, but because I actually ran Sonic Boon + Guardian of Lyssa (AH Guardian build variant) together last night in TA and wow.  Just. wow.  It was an intense run, between the two of us (and my Sonic Boon warr is only lvl 65, with less than optimal equips currently, such that I can only sustain ~10-12 stacks of might on myself, but that's not being in possession of Forceful Greatsword trait as of yet, few more levels ) we had basically no trouble with any part of the dungeon (for the only exception, see the final paragraph).

Also, to check in a bit with the lvl 60 variant Sonic Boon, it does appear to run better with the points in Disc, especially since at that lvl the crit chance based off equips is not nearly as high as it is at lvl 80 with decent equips, so it makes it a lot nicer to help sustain might stacks (running with a major sigil of strength as well to help boost the self Might stacks).

Finally, the final encounter of TA explore mode proved to be...well...interesting for this build, especially the one where it is the turrets and the giant evil possessed tree thing mainly because EVERYTHING we were fighting was considered a "structure" rather than an actual enemy, IE no crits or anything of that sort.  Was a fun learning experience that really demonstrated to me, once again, why a lot of people do not enjoy TA very much at all.

[Brand]

Yeah, it's pretty legit haha, glad you agree. And yes, I just did a TA exp sucks a lot
Thanks for the info about the disc trait ^^
I'm going to bed now though, hope to see some juicy replies tomorrow!

Edited by Brand, 20 February 2013 - 02:16 AM.

[Mel]

Brand, on 14 November 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

I hope you do actually read this, and I'm hoping you do test that FGJ/OMM duration thing because I am now curious. Thanks for bringing in more discussion!

Don't see this in the thread (seeing its 20 pages long, try not to be cross) and thought I would contribute. Guild has posted this on our forums for us to review  Don't consider myself theorycrafter, but I can do a little math:

Stacking 5 per tick, 5+5@25 seconds for a 10 upkeep R 20 seconds.
If you pop your sig at the same time, that's 15 stacks for 2s, then 10 for 24 seconds while the sigil is still active and FGJ is on cycle, then another 15 for about 9 with the last pop of FGJ while sigil winds down.

With Sig Strength, you'll require a minimum of 10 crits every 25 seconds--sorry; 5 if Forceful GS stacks with sigil--for 25 Might to yourself (doable, I won't argue, however it requires a phenomenal amount of things to go right in a dungeon/WvW; blinds off, no shutdown skills kicking you in the teeth, no KDs or knockbacks forcing you back into their face.), but there is no way to improve the might stacks to the team beyond 15 for brief periods.

Edited by Mel, 20 February 2013 - 03:33 AM.

[Experiment Gone Bad]

Thanks for that very elaborate response.

A few followup questions:

What do you consider is "significant"? I see a lot of debates here in these forums that x.x% DPS, EHP, Healing, Crit, Crit Dmg etc etc is significant. Is 25% significant? Is 12.5? Is 6.25?

How do you consider uptime? Uptime becomes more important when the fight lingers on longer, the problem is, most fights don't really last "that" long (sans a few boss fights, fractals)

How did you compute for the healing AH does?

What is your concept of "over-healing"?

What are the disadvantages of Sonic Boon? (since you don't really discuss it)


---------

Quote

Now, the very first difference in the builds I see are that this is a Warrior build and that a Guardian build. The issue that arises here is that Warriors inherently have much more health than Guardians. About 8k more in fact, or 800 vitalitys worth. Considering our vitality isn't different by much, this causes you to be at a serious disadvantage (Especially with the lack of Omnoms).

While they are 2 different builds, for 2 different classes, they do arguably the same job, which deal DPS and support at the same time. While Warriors do have in fact, more health as guardians (base 18k vs base 11k I think), and I think the "disadvantage" is removed with the presence of protection and aegis. The visual builder doesn't consider these 2 in it's equation. Pies on the other hand are a different story all in all, that's why I asked you above on your concept of over-healing, as I found AH on it's own is enough to supplement a guardian's self-healing (every 3rd GS AA gives heals, as well as every proc of Strength sigil and Empowering Might [EM], and all the buffs you supply to yourself and the party).

Quote

You get self regen to match ours (When you add in the extra healing our 6 skill does more than yours)

Actually, Healing Surge heals for just over 300 more than Signet of Resolve (base, around 600 more with your build, which in return i ask again, is this significant?), not to mention that Healing Surge is Adrenaline reliant. We also have the passive in Virtue of Resolve, Regeneration from Hold the Line/Save Yourselves, as well as AH. I don't have math to support this, but I think guardian self healing is better (not by much), even without pies.

On might stacking:

I think that might stacking is fairly trivial on either Sonic Boon, or AH-EM guardians, as the number of enemies directly affect the number of mights you get on yourself. However, Warriors have automatically 8 stacks of might to work with (SoR/FGJ). Though once you're talking about hitting mobs (Whirling Wrath hits more opponents, and for more hits (7x2(?) hits opposed to 8) than 100b, which help empowering might), as the number of opponents go higher, we'd be looking at roughly the same amount of might stacks.

I'd also like to point out that you missed the usage of Staffs. Using Empower grants your party 12 stacks of might for over 17s (in this setup), given that Empower CD is reduced to 16s due to 2-handed mastery. Again it benefits from AH (you can go from 0% to around 100%hp depending on how much allies are hit with empower), and gives your party a base heal of 1200 (increases with healing power), Orb of Light while more of a crutch heal, is a heal on it's own. Symbol of Swiftness also grants your party 100% swiftness. There are other things you've missed as well, such as Virtue of Resolve (both passive and active effects), dodge healing, near permanent self vigor, etc.

Quote

All in all though, the biggest difference between the builds is their direct damage. We have much more than you between 100B, at least 6.5% base, ~15 more stacks of might, ~15 stacks of vulnerability (Buffs party dps too), etc.

Aside from the Vunerability, Whirling Wrath deals at least half the damage of Hundred Blades (the animation is gimped, and doesn't show the real damage most of the time), and as I said above, empower not only gives you, but your whole party automatically 12 stacks of might to work with. Not to mention that this specific build has 20% more critical damage than Sonic Boon.


The thing I like about the guardian is, that it isn't "pigeon holed" into the build. AH guards have a lot of options both in traits and utility, as opposed to warriors. Banners are more or less inferior to shouts, and that's the only build your trait selection can really branch out to. A guardian can easily turn from AH Empowering Might, to AH Hammer Heal (while it does require people to stack, it gives the party near permanent protection and a ton of healing to you and your party mates. You can easily change your utilities/traits to match a certain event (need party condition removal? Get Pure of Voice || Wall of Reflection and Shield of the Avenger are a godsend in fractals and some dungeons).Warriors just don't have that much luxury, and in turn, versatility.


I'm sorry if I got a bit picky with my quotes, the ones I quoted are those I found a bit iffy, the rest I either agree with, or just don't have data on my hands to respond properly with.


My post also seems to be all over the place, just got off from work and fairly tired, so I hope you forgive me if some of it seem incomprehensible at times.

While I have graduated from using your build (gone GC, since I'm usually in organized groups now, I still have my Boon Duration armor though!) I'd still recommend it to the lot who don't have the luxury of re-rolling into a guardian, or don't have consistent organized groups to play with. I learned a lot from using your build, and I hope for others to learn something as well.

[Thorfinnr]

Brand, on 19 February 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

Yes you can do that, I replied to another guy in the same situation a page back Thorfinnr. As for the agony resist, I hadn't noticed that the utility infusions lack it :x I'm not sure in this case. I'm still going to get the Karma though, I don't plan on going super hugely far in fractals, and that karma gain is godly.

Fair enough...it is a fantastic Karma gain...I suppose having one for PvE(Karma) and one for Fractals(with extra Agony Resist.) is not out of the quesiton.

[Brand]

Mel, on 20 February 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

Don't see this in the thread (seeing its 20 pages long, try not to be cross) and thought I would contribute. Guild has posted this on our forums for us to review  Don't consider myself theorycrafter, but I can do a little math:

Stacking 5 per tick, 5+5@25 seconds for a 10 upkeep R 20 seconds.
If you pop your sig at the same time, that's 15 stacks for 2s, then 10 for 24 seconds while the sigil is still active and FGJ is on cycle, then another 15 for about 9 with the last pop of FGJ while sigil winds down.

With Sig Strength, you'll require a minimum of 10 crits every 25 seconds--sorry; 5 if Forceful GS stacks with sigil--for 25 Might to yourself (doable, I won't argue, however it requires a phenomenal amount of things to go right in a dungeon/WvW; blinds off, no shutdown skills kicking you in the teeth, no KDs or knockbacks forcing you back into their face.), but there is no way to improve the might stacks to the team beyond 15 for brief periods.

I'm so confused here man. The post you quoted was asking how much DPS FGJ/OMM gave to the party, and it was later shown by Lilitu a few pages later. What are you saying with this 5 per tick, etc?

Anyway, I think I can answer your second part. First of all, I don't see you taking into account attack speed for these numbers. GS AA (Not even with 100B, which increases AS) strikes 6 times in very close to 5 seconds. That means with AA you are hitting the enemy 30 times in your proposed 25 second window. Our crit chance with Fury with the optimal build (Shown in the "Visual Build" link) has about 80% critical strike rating. With those 30 strikes probability states that 24 of them should be critical strikes, much more than your supposed 10. And yes the sigil and Forceful Greatsword do stack.

Furthermore, the team will only ever see 6 of our might stacks, not 15. The team gets way less than us because we only give it with FGJ. In combat, assuming you are in a group, it is extremely easy to get 25 might stacks even without the Sigil of Strength. Of course if you are being knocked down or permastunned etc you won't get all of those stacks. It says multiple times I believe that you have to be in combat, and it is also assumed that you aren't being smushed into the dirt by everything around you. You can't really expect the high stacks if you can't hit the enemy haha.

Sorry if I missed the point of your math and/or question/observation. I can't really understand the first part, maybe because it's out of context from your guild site? I'm not sure what it's saying entirely

[Loperdos]

Experiment Gone Bad, on 20 February 2013 - 04:08 AM, said:

Teh in-depth quote-y quoteness from EGB...

While they are 2 different builds, for 2 different classes, they do arguably the same job, which deal DPS and support at the same time. While Warriors do have in fact, more health as guardians (base 18k vs base 11k I think), and I think the "disadvantage" is removed with the presence of protection and aegis. The visual builder doesn't consider these 2 in it's equation. Pies on the other hand are a different story all in all, that's why I asked you above on your concept of over-healing, as I found AH on it's own is enough to supplement a guardian's self-healing (every 3rd GS AA gives heals, as well as every proc of Strength sigil and Empowering Might [EM], and all the buffs you supply to yourself and the party).

More quote-y quotes and comparison from EGB...

Nice post and very informative from a comparative stand-point of AH Guardian vs Sonic Boon.  The only thing that I would add is from personal experience, so it may or may not actually apply to all situations, because the build/person who plays their Guardian of Lyssa build (for anyone not familiar with the build variant) with my Sonic Boon warrior (and is thus, my comparison) plays it in a very specific way.

Disclaimer out of the way, from what I've seen, when it comes to support (namely heals) the Sonic Boon works better as a burst emergency heal compared with the Guardian of Lyssa build which seems to be able to sustain heals quite well.  A few times when my group has run content and someone gets hit with a smooshy smoosh attack, it takes the guardian a bit longer to get them back up to an acceptable level of HP as opposed to if I pop myself over to them (sometimes don't even have to do that, with the 600 range on shouts) and drop all three heal shouts on them.  This isn't to say dropping to Staff and popping Empower is a bad heal, but it does drop the guardian's DPS down since he's not actively attacking during the channeled skill.

Just my 2 cents from some game-play experience, and by no means an expert on this build.

[Calixtus]

Very interesting thread.

Just leveled my warrior and last profession to 80 and this build interests me.

First attempt at using it in AC was a bit patchy so will re-read whole thread to see what I was doing wrong as went down far to quick for my liking.  I still need to add one mink rune and full accessories so this might be the issue.

I noticed in the spreadsheet that Gwens Necklace is listed as total toughness of 90 but on wiki it says +94 and +18 which if my math is correct is 112 have I missed something?

keep up the great thread.

[Brand]

Calixtus, on 20 February 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

Very interesting thread.

Just leveled my warrior and last profession to 80 and this build interests me.

First attempt at using it in AC was a bit patchy so will re-read whole thread to see what I was doing wrong as went down far to quick for my liking.  I still need to add one mink rune and full accessories so this might be the issue.

I noticed in the spreadsheet that Gwens Necklace is listed as total toughness of 90 but on wiki it says +94 and +18 which if my math is correct is 112 have I missed something?

keep up the great thread.

If you have the optimal gear and everything then I don't know. It could have been your group? People run with glass cannon builds and this one has a good deal more survivability than those ^^ I've only seen one other poster who had survivability issues when using this build. Perhaps you are simply geared to a more "Tanky" mind, and think you should be taking less damage? Not sure Oh, were you using your Omnomberries?

And yes it was an error on my part, thanks for noticing it. Has been corrected. (Also it's 94 + 32, which is 126)
Glad you like the build though, hope it gets better for you ^^ If you want a more defensive build that is similar to this, try an AH Guardian! (Read above posts #585, #591 and #595)

Edited by Brand, 20 February 2013 - 10:43 PM.

[Calixtus]

Oh yes +126 read the stats wrong.

Group wasn't the best but felt it was more my mishandling of the build.  Monk rune now applied,  Also i think I was misusing Arcing Slice I'll leave it alone and not use from now!

I had Master Maintenance Oil and Curry Buttternut squash Soup on which are extra Prescision.   Haven't got to your cons yet although i think i saw somewhere Ghost Omnoms?.

[Calixtus]

Karka Shell + exquisite ruby and zerks earing aleady on.

Bit the rest are farms from fractals or laurel purchase.

In the meantime before perfecting this build would emerald rings/amulet be the best route to go?

Current backpack is +13 precsion +13 toughness +18 cond dam with embellished coral +21 precision +13 Con Dam  +13 Power.

Guess I'll be hitting Fractals for a bit.

[Brand]

Calixtus, on 20 February 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

Oh yes +126 read the stats wrong.

Group wasn't the best but felt it was more my mishandling of the build.  Monk rune now applied,  Also i think I was misusing Arcing Slice I'll leave it alone and not use from now!

I had Master Maintenance Oil and Curry Buttternut squash Soup on which are extra Prescision.   Haven't got to your cons yet although i think i saw somewhere Ghost Omnoms?.

Yeah, no using of the Burst It is recommended to use Omnomberry pies/ghosts, it's in the spreadsheet.

Calixtus, on 20 February 2013 - 11:45 PM, said:

Karka Shell + exquisite ruby and zerks earing aleady on.

Bit the rest are farms from fractals or laurel purchase.

In the meantime before perfecting this build would emerald rings/amulet be the best route to go?

Current backpack is +13 precsion +13 toughness +18 cond dam with embellished coral +21 precision +13 Con Dam  +13 Power.

Guess I'll be hitting Fractals for a bit.

Berserker rings, emerald amulet.
You need a new backpack haha, try Cavalier's spineguard, on the TP for <5s

[Calixtus]

Brand, on 21 February 2013 - 12:09 AM, said:

Yeah, no using of the Burst It is recommended to use Omnomberry pies/ghosts, it's in the spreadsheet.

Berserker rings, emerald amulet.
You need a new backpack haha, try Cavalier's spineguard, on the TP for <5s

Cav spineguard rare now 13.80s

Must be this thread putting the price up