120 replies to this topic

[Setima]

Sigh, okay, I want to predict some stuffs! Lets start with weapons! This might get long too.
Dagger/Dagger:
~Auto attack is faster and the poison lasts longer
~Heartseeker's maximum damage range only kicks in between 0~10%
~Leaping Death Blossom activates faster and the bleeds do more damage
~Dancing Dagger's damage goes up 5% and the cripple lasts 1 second longer
~CnD becomes instant cast, costs 8 initiative does 5% more damage and gives 1 second more stealth (4 seconds instead of 3 base)

Pistol/Pistol
~Auto Attack shoots faster and the base time of the bleed goes up 1 second (from 4 to 5)
~Body Shot's damage goes up 5%, lasts 10 seconds and applies 10 stacks of vulnerability
~Unload channels faster and applies 1 bleed per shot that is landed
~Head Shot's daze lasts for 1/2 second and does 5% more damage
~Black Powder's cloud lasts 1 second longer, does 5% more damage and has a slightly larger radius of effect

Dagger/Pistol
~Shadow Shot does 5% more damage, the shot blinds, the dagger attack afterward poisons.

Sword/Pistol
~Infiltrator's Strike does 5% more damage and the immobilize lasts 1 second longer
~Pistol Whip returns to it's original damage and the stun lasts 1 second due to changes to Haste (see below)

Sword/Dagger
~Flanking Strike activates faster, teleports you to the target's back, does 5% more damage, removes 1 boon per strike granting them to you

Shortbow
~Trick Shot does slightly more damage and travels faster
~Cluster Bomb travels faster, does 5% more damage and applies 5 stacks of bleeds to anyone standing in the area of effect when it lands. Detonating the bomb before it hits the ground applies 1 stack of bleeding and 1 stack of crippling for 5 seconds per detonation
~Disabling Shot cripples for 3 seconds and the jump backwards is based on your target's proximity to you when you use the skill. At point blank range, you'll evade backwards twice as far as you do now, from max range you'll evade half as far as you do now.
~Choking Gas lasts 5 seconds and does 5% more damage to people in the area of effect
~Infiltrator's Arrow fires faster, the blast radius is larger on impact and it cripples for 1 second in addition to blinding within the radius

Healing Skills
~Hide in the Shadows grants 1/2 second longer stealth for each condition it removes when used
~Signet of Malice heals more the lower the Thief's health gets
~Withdraw leaves a trail of vapor that grants 5 seconds of Regeneration to any allies that walk through it for 5 seconds

Utility Skills
~Haste cooldown is now 30 seconds and only stops endurance regeneration (doesn't remove it all from you) but only doubles the attack speed of your next skill used within 4 seconds instead of all skills for 4 seconds.
~Spider Venom lasts 30 seconds and can be used for as many attacks as you want
~Skale Venom's Vulnerability and Weakness last 10 seconds, Vulnerablity increases damage by 2% and lasts for the next 5 attacks
~Ice Drake Venom poisons foes in addtion to chilling them and lasts for 5 attacks
~Devourer Venom lasts 30 seconds and can immobilize only every 5 seconds but has no attack limit
~Tripwire causes an explosion in a small radius 3 seconds after it is triggered that causes 5 stacks of bleeding and burning for 5 seconds to enemies within the radius
~Scorpion Wire bleeds foes when it hits, and causes a knockdown for 1 second once they're pulled to you. If they cannot be pulled to you, you apply 10 stacks of bleeding for 5 seconds and the recharge on scorpion wire is reduced by half.
~Needle Trap's area of effect is larger, poisons for 10 seconds, immobilizes for 4 seconds and prevents any skills from being used for 2 seconds. If the trap is triggered but fails to snare anybody, it explodes and leaves behind a poisonous area of effect that poisons anybody walking through it for 10 seconds


Sorry for the length, I know it's probably a wall of text, but this is what I think will happen if Anet is serious about "compensating" the Thief on lowering the spike damage. I guess we'll find out in a few days!

Edited by Setima, 13 November 2012 - 07:15 PM.

[MazingerZ]

What is Steal "aftercast?"

Trying to follow thread, not getting some terms.

[Drtrider]

stefanplc, on 10 November 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

I hope they do something about the pistol/dagger combo where you can just cloak and dagger and then use the #1 skill over and over again (the bleeds build)

A change here could probably fix some of the backstab burst combos too.

I'm running a full condition/venom build which I worked hard to get the armor for. If they nerf this condition build, my only option is D/D which is just stupid. Lets hope ANet doesn't f* it up.

[stefanplc]

Drtrider, on 13 November 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

I'm running a full condition/venom build which I worked hard to get the armor for. If they nerf this condition build, my only option is D/D which is just stupid. Lets hope ANet doesn't f* it up.

The build will still be viable if they increase the CD on being able to go back to stealth to like 5-6 seconds so people actually have a chance to attack you. The way we can currently spam it isn't fair.

[Drtrider]

stefanplc, on 13 November 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

The build will still be viable if they increase the CD on being able to go back to stealth to like 5-6 seconds so people actually have a chance to attack you. The way we can currently spam it isn't fair.

If they fix stealth, I would have no issue with this. All channeled abilities still hit cloaked targets. Which means a rangers rapid fire, or necro's health siphon, still hits for the full duration. Fix that, and I would be okay with the change to CnD.
Keep in mind, to keep this build viable the auto attack is going to need to hit harder or something or else the build is pointless.

However, I would like to see something else cause bleeds or conditions so I would have more then 2 options. However, if they fix the rendering thing (which does need to be fixed) then they need to fix the other side of stealth as well. (the channeled range abilities)

[Alzun]

Shatteredz, on 12 November 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

Actually downed stated is being complained about by other people, and I(and others) dont think it is fun being downed/killing downed people at all.

Also, ele bunker builds are concidered one of the strongest bunkers, and the current meta is about them. You could say that a ele bunker is OP, yeah.

I don't like the downed state either.  It makes pulling off 1v2s against competent players impossible.  I just thought it was funny that he was complaining that his OP spec didn't work because of the downed state.
Ele bunkers are strong, but he was talking about glass cannon ele's.  He was literally rank 5.  I doubt he knew what a bunker was if it sat on him.

[stefanplc]

Drtrider, on 13 November 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

If they fix stealth, I would have no issue with this. All channeled abilities still hit cloaked targets. Which means a rangers rapid fire, or necro's health siphon, still hits for the full duration. Fix that, and I would be okay with the change to CnD.
Keep in mind, to keep this build viable the auto attack is going to need to hit harder or something or else the build is pointless.

However, I would like to see something else cause bleeds or conditions so I would have more then 2 options. However, if they fix the rendering thing (which does need to be fixed) then they need to fix the other side of stealth as well. (the channeled range abilities)

Well you're also supposed to swap weapons. Most thieves that play this build only play their pistol/dagger and maybe shortbow for when they're traveling. Dagger/dagger with pistol/dagger works really really well, it's just not super easy to play, you need to think a little bit when playing it.

I would also like to see the channeled abilities and stealth fixes but I don't think a nerf to CnD/Sneak Attack combo requires any buffs. Right now it's just not fair. We're out of stealth for 3 seconds which is just enough time for a dodge and to shoot our #1 skill and then back in stealth it is. People need to have a chance to react to this build.

[Setima]

They have a chance to react to the build the same as any Thief. I have to go into melee range and hit you with CnD to go into stealth or blow at least a 30 second cooldown to do it at range. If I'm running up to your face, then dodge the hell away so my CnD misses and I waste half my initiative bar. The entire point of the Thief is to bob and weave in and out of stealth, and we have almost an entire tree line of traits dedicated to making us not die as long as we're in stealth (condition removal, faster initiative regeneration, health regeneration, etc).

If you made it take longer to go into stealth, we're dead. In less than 3 seconds I can be stunned, blinded, immobilized and blown the * up by people with half a brain. They've already got a bug with Pistols that makes Sneak Attack reset the duration of the Revealed Debuff which means Pistol Thieves already have to wait longer to get back into stealth. If you make it something stupid like a 6 second wait, you may as well just take the *ing stealth out, double my damage and just let me kill you straight up without it like a Warrior without the armor or 100b bullshit. Stop whining about easy to counter tactics and wait and see if Anet *s the Thief over some more in 3 days.

[General Typhus]

Korra, on 10 November 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

ITT: Predict what nerfs thief will get on 15th.

ITT we predict Korra's next whine post:

"Thief is so underpowered and the victim of horrible neglect at Anet's hands"

[Cr0w]

Pistol whip will be renamed to Pistol Tickle. It will do zero damage but the enemy will instagib due to LoLs with a 1 hour cool down.

[Korra]

General Typhus, on 13 November 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

ITT we predict Korra's next whine post:

"Thief is so underpowered and the victim of horrible neglect at Anet's hands"

Would you mind explaining? Did i ever whined how unfair was the thief nerf? i even made a post myself asking for a nerf because d/d seemed just a freaking mindless keyroll or even worse i could just AA someone to death in seconds. It's true in some occasions i defended my class against unneeded nerf but always with an objective poin of view.

But now again, mind explaining yourself? Because to me you just look like a fool looking for a pointless internet argument.

[rza]

I couldn't agree with you more on this.  There's already a stealth debuff if I choose to hit my opponent during stealth.  Some douche Guardian I faced today was so mad that I keep C&D to stay stealth granted I'm doing sh*t damage to him as a conditioned thief.  Yet he accused me of exploiting stealth bug which I wasn't aware of about the 2 seconds rendering issue but at the same time I couldn't even kill him.  I had to go in constant stealth to avoid death and relied on caltrops.    

Prediction on nerf:

BS damage reduction
Mug damage reduction perhaps with animated cast time
HS cast time

Buffs:

Faster #1 for guns
Venoms can't be remove (really Spider venom doesn't sh*t damage)

Setima, on 13 November 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

They have a chance to react to the build the same as any Thief. I have to go into melee range and hit you with CnD to go into stealth or blow at least a 30 second cooldown to do it at range. If I'm running up to your face, then dodge the hell away so my CnD misses and I waste half my initiative bar. The entire point of the Thief is to bob and weave in and out of stealth, and we have almost an entire tree line of traits dedicated to making us not die as long as we're in stealth (condition removal, faster initiative regeneration, health regeneration, etc).

If you made it take longer to go into stealth, we're dead. In less than 3 seconds I can be stunned, blinded, immobilized and blown the * up by people with half a brain. They've already got a bug with Pistols that makes Sneak Attack reset the duration of the Revealed Debuff which means Pistol Thieves already have to wait longer to get back into stealth. If you make it something stupid like a 6 second wait, you may as well just take the *ing stealth out, double my damage and just let me kill you straight up without it like a Warrior without the armor or 100b bullshit. Stop whining about easy to counter tactics and wait and see if Anet *s the Thief over some more in 3 days.

[NuclearDonut]

Cr0w, on 13 November 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

Pistol whip will be renamed to Pistol Tickle. It will do zero damage but the enemy will instagib due to LoLs with a 1 hour cool down.

If this was added to the game I would only play my Thief. Honestly I would love for some kind of April Fool's event with this skill added.

[Drtrider]

stefanplc, on 13 November 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

Well you're also supposed to swap weapons.

And I do. I normally open with shortbow a bit, and then swap when I see fit. I understand D/D with P/D can be a viable build. However I personally refuse to limit myself when dealing with those on a wall, or losing my Shadow Shot. Also keep in mind, yes swapping is a good thing. But saying you're "supposed to swap" I think is a little absurd. Just because its there does not mean I have to swap. Granted those builds that dont are greatly gimping themselves. It all depends on what you do, what you bring to the table, and what your opponent brings to the table.

Quote

People need to have a chance to react to this build.

This build has zero, let me repeat, ZERO spike damage. If you're going for a spike build then you have no business using P/D. It's about consistent damage and conditions. Not even that many conditions to be honest. (When compared to an easy 25 stacks of bleed from a D/D thief) With that said, people have plenty of time to react. Condition removal? Stun? Swap to range? Cripple? There is so much people can do to help counter such a build. If the thief cant get close, they cant stealth, if they cant stealth 1. They're as good as dead. 2. They're not outputting much damage. But none the less, stealth needs to fine tuning/fixing.

[stefanplc]

Drtrider, on 13 November 2012 - 10:44 PM, said:

And I do. I normally open with shortbow a bit, and then swap when I see fit. I understand D/D with P/D can be a viable build. However I personally refuse to limit myself when dealing with those on a wall, or losing my Shadow Shot. Also keep in mind, yes swapping is a good thing. But saying you're "supposed to swap" I think is a little absurd. Just because its there does not mean I have to swap. Granted those builds that dont are greatly gimping themselves. It all depends on what you do, what you bring to the table, and what your opponent brings to the table.


This build has zero, let me repeat, ZERO spike damage. If you're going for a spike build then you have no business using P/D. It's about consistent damage and conditions. Not even that many conditions to be honest. (When compared to an easy 25 stacks of bleed from a D/D thief) With that said, people have plenty of time to react. Condition removal? Stun? Swap to range? Cripple? There is so much people can do to help counter such a build. If the thief cant get close, they cant stealth, if they cant stealth 1. They're as good as dead. 2. They're not outputting much damage. But none the less, stealth needs to fine tuning/fixing.

Someone who is able to use a second weapon set constantly will always do better than someone who's only using one weapon set most of the time assuming he has a proper build.

It's not about spike damage, it's about the fact that you're not out of stealth long enough for your opponents to do something about it. The amount of bleed stacks you can keep up with P/D is very close to the one from D/D so they're very close in single target DPS. P/D can keep up around 10-12 stacks where D/D can go up to 15. Together however, after applying your D/D bleeds because they last longer if you switch to P/D you can get up to 25 stacks which is why it's so strong. 20-25 stacks of bleeds is pretty much spike damage.

I really enjoy playing it as is and I don't really want them to change it too much, however I often feel like it's borderline OP. Fixing the stealth render might be all that's needed but as it is, it doesn't give your opponent much of a chance to do anything to you so it's not really fair.

[Drtrider]

stefanplc, on 14 November 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

Someone who is able to use a second weapon set constantly will always do better than someone who's only using one weapon set most of the time assuming he has a proper build.

It's not about spike damage, it's about the fact that you're not out of stealth long enough for your opponents to do something about it. The amount of bleed stacks you can keep up with P/D is very close to the one from D/D so they're very close in single target DPS. P/D can keep up around 10-12 stacks where D/D can go up to 15. Together however, after applying your D/D bleeds because they last longer if you switch to P/D you can get up to 25 stacks which is why it's so strong. 20-25 stacks of bleeds is pretty much spike damage.

I really enjoy playing it as is and I don't really want them to change it too much, however I often feel like it's borderline OP. Fixing the stealth render might be all that's needed but as it is, it doesn't give your opponent much of a chance to do anything to you so it's not really fair.

Good points here and I agree. However a well timed stun/knockdown can normally counter a thief running such a build (I've learned to counter such stuns because of this)

And granted their time to react is limited and I agree that the render issue does need to be addressed. However, slap down some AOE's or well placed cripples, and you're going to send the thief running for the hills.

[ensoriki]

Infiltrator's arrow changed to 200 range... Doesn't apply blindness anymore.
Distracting shot changed from applying cripple to blindness...
CnD damage nerf.
Backstab damage nerf.
Mug - Applies bleeding instead of direct damage.
Flanking strike - Still unreliable, but now gives you swiftness because slapping more things on will eventually make it work.
Heartseeker - No longer a Leap finisher
Body Shot - Now functions the same as alt+f4.
Pistol Whip - Stun removed, now immobilizes, damage nerfed further.
Assassin's Signet - Only affects next 2 attacks.
Signet of Shadows - movement bonus changed to 10%
Head shot - alt+f4's if you don't interrupt.
Tripwire - Cripples instead of knockdown.
Scorpion Wire - Knocks you down as well.
Initiative - Recharge changed to 1 initiative ever 5 seconds.

...

Edited by ensoriki, 14 November 2012 - 12:25 AM.

[Red_Falcon]

Thieves nerfs will just be like the new treadmill, unneeded stuff added to make people stop crying.
If we can't kill in 3 seconds then we shouldn't die in 3 seconds either.
We already seen what happens when you give Thief no damage and no survivability, during BWEs.

Edited by Red_Falcon, 14 November 2012 - 12:21 AM.

[ensoriki]

Oh my Assassin I remember how they nerfed you, hated you...spat in your face....your son will suffer the same fate...till the end of time.

Edited by ensoriki, 14 November 2012 - 12:26 AM.

[BandwagonX9000]

lmaonade, on 11 November 2012 - 12:11 AM, said:

I think Anet went a bit overboard with it, the aftercast on steal is fine, a nerf to CnD is fine, but everything at once just kills it

It is not fine. Aftercast on steal or nerf on cnd affects other people other than the "problematic" glass burst bs builds. Same as cluster bomb.

Featherman, on 11 November 2012 - 03:51 AM, said:

Nerfs aren't solely about bringing down pretty numbers. Let's not forget that thieves can shadowstep away from any engagement using Infiltrator's Arrow and also travel super fast with it. That's definitely getting some kind of a nerf.

How much swiftness did that signet of rage of yours give you again?

[Setima]

There's no way to hell you're getting 25 stacks of bleeds on anybody using P/D. I'm full 100% duration on my bleeds and the highest I can stack with auto attack is about 12 with a spike if I stealth as soon as it hits 12 and Sneak Attack for up to 15 or so. They fall of very quickly the higher they get stacked. They could possible use Caltrops to stack several bleeds on your very fast and you're very stupid to stand in them, but even in PvE where the mobs do stand in them, unless I Cluster Bomb spam, I don't get near 25 stacks at all. And even with 25 stacks, that's still not spike damage. Spike damage is half to three quarters of your health gone in seconds. P/D Thieves need ramp up time, the same way Combat Rogues need it in WoW. Their DPS slowly goes up over time then sits there as long as you do nothing about it.

And about weapon swapping that nobody seems to mention. There's very little reason to weapon swap, especially in PvP unless you're trying to run away with the Shortbow. Unlike another class who can weapon swap and have 5 cooldowns to blow, if I'm low on initiative when I swap, I'm still low on initiative. That's why playing P/D you have to think a bit ahead and conserve your initiative for emergency get aways. Sure perhaps you could stack bleeds a bit faster with D/D swap and LDB, but after two, you're out of initiative because most P/D condition types don't have points put into Trickery for the extra initiative and initiative regeneration from stealing. Go make a Thief, go to the mists, go to WvW with the Wild Bill spec, hell just go watch his videos. Try it out and see it's not as easy as you think to stay alive even with a tanky build. Either way I'm still going to wait until the official nerfs and see who whines once all the Thieves have to go condtion based just to do anything anymore.

[stefanplc]

Drtrider, on 14 November 2012 - 12:12 AM, said:

Good points here and I agree. However a well timed stun/knockdown can normally counter a thief running such a build (I've learned to counter such stuns because of this)

And granted their time to react is limited and I agree that the render issue does need to be addressed. However, slap down some AOE's or well placed cripples, and you're going to send the thief running for the hills.

Since you're going stealth so often it would be a shame not to get those traits that remove conditions while you're in stealth and the one that heals you while in stealth. Cripples and AoEs really don't do that much because of those 2 traits. It is true however that if you eat a stun into some burst over half of your HP can disappear in just a few seconds, as we're very squishy. Personally however I can't even remember the last time I got caught in one because I've learned when to expect them and to dodge them and even if one hits me I always have shadowstep available to get out. So in other words, it's very difficult for someone to kill us. Even if we do get close to dieing, we can always just get away.

I've made a montage not too long ago playing shortbow dagger/dagger condition damage in WvWvW


Replacing the shortbow with pistol/dagger legit made it twice as good as if it wasn't already great.

Setima, on 14 November 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

There's no way to hell you're getting 25 stacks of bleeds on anybody using P/D.

"after applying your D/D bleeds because they last longer if you switch to P/D you can get up to 25 stacks"

Setima, on 14 November 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

And even with 25 stacks, that's still not spike damage. Spike damage is half to three quarters of your health gone in seconds.

That's roughly 3k+ damage per second meaning in 4 seconds you do over half of someone's HP. That's pretty significant.

Setima, on 14 November 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

And about weapon swapping that nobody seems to mention. There's very little reason to weapon swap, especially in PvP unless you're trying to run away with the Shortbow.

P/D and D/D instead of your shortbow is much stronger. You can blow all of your initiative during D/D and then keep applying pressure with P/D. With sigil of geomancy you also apply 3 more bleeds on weapon swap when you're in melee range and you should always aim to get those.

[Drtrider]

stefanplc, on 14 November 2012 - 01:42 AM, said:

Since you're going stealth so often it would be a shame not to get those traits that remove conditions while you're in stealth and the one that heals you while in stealth. Cripples and AoEs really don't do that much because of those 2 traits. It is true however that if you eat a stun into some burst over half of your HP can disappear in just a few seconds, as we're very squishy. Personally however I can't even remember the last time I got caught in one because I've learned when to expect them and to dodge them and even if one hits me I always have shadowstep available to get out. So in other words, it's very difficult for someone to kill us. Even if we do get close to dieing, we can always just get away.

I've made a montage not too long ago playing shortbow dagger/dagger condition damage in WvWvW

I saw the video actually when you first posted it. Took quite a few notes. However I prefer a leeching venom/power build myself over a high initiative build like you have here.

[stefanplc]

Setima, on 14 November 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

Try it out and see it's not as easy as you think to stay alive even with a tanky build. Either way I'm still going to wait until the official nerfs and see who whines once all the Thieves have to go condtion based just to do anything anymore.

I play a thief, see my montage above. D/D - P/D is absolutely nuts and far better than any shortbow version. Both weapon sets are very very strong and swaping them with an appropriate strategy gives you a huge advantage over sticking to just one.

Drtrider, on 14 November 2012 - 01:45 AM, said:

I saw the video actually when you first posted it. Took quite a few notes. However I prefer a leeching venom/power build myself over a high initiative build like you have here.

I'm waiting for the patch notes this weekend and then I'll start recording again using P/D - D/D. I'm having so much fun with it and it feels so strong against just about anything, it's legit the perfect condition build. I haven't lost a single 1v2 since I switched to it vs geared 80s and duels aren't even a challenge. The only problem with it, which isn't really a problem is that you need to pace yourself and read your opponent so you know how to counter his next move. Once you get the hang of it, it fits like a glove, just starting up is a little more difficult as you'll often waste initiative or weapon swap at the wrong times.

[Setima]

Look, even if you can get 25 stacks of bleeds on somebody, they won't stay at 25 stacks for more than a second before it drops down to 15 and then down to whatever your pistol auto attack can sustain based on your bleed duration increase. And whether or not you want to agree to it, even at 25 stacks, that's still not spike damage as I see it. You'll burn all your initiative to stack the bleeds which is going to take you at least 3 LDB attacks on somebody that is just standing there not rolling or evading the attack at all. Plus it puts you at high risk of just getting blown up since you're not based around 3 shotting people with a Backstab build. I don't want to stick in melee range for longer than I need to CnD and roll out to sneak attack. 12 stacks of bleeding is overkill on anything I've fought outside of bunker Guardians that know what they're doing. WIth how easy it is to remove the conditions, blowing all my initiative to stack it in melee range seems like a waste and too dangerous a tactic. I'm sure people make it work, it's not for me.

As for running away, it's the same difference between Shortbow or Dagger. Two Heartseekers move you the same distance for the same 6 Initiative that Infiltrator's Arrows does (450x2 or 900x1). Two big differences is that Heartseeker can auto target something behind you and leap you straight back into the zerg whereas Infiltrator's Arrow will always move you where you want to go and even lets you move if you're immoblized or crippled. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

[Featherman]

BandwagonX9000, on 14 November 2012 - 12:33 AM, said:

How much swiftness did that signet of rage of yours give you again?

Wow aren't we touchy. I wouldn't know about the signet as I haven't touched my warrior since september. It's not a big deal either as half the professions can get permanent swiftness with little problem. Very few, however, can blink 1800 away mid-fight and do it again in a few seconds.

Edited by Featherman, 14 November 2012 - 11:34 AM.

[Killyox]

Imo it'll be

Aftercast added to steal so combo is impossible to do.

Cluster Bomb dmg cut in half and dmg on detonate increased.

[glountz]

I'm playing a 2maces/hammer defense warrior and never played a thief in PvP (mine is just a mule), so I'm not very "skilled" in thieves discussions.

I have actually few problems with thief damage at the moment. When I manage to anticipate one, I generally survive. Thing is that you have to mindplay them, locate them through their shadow clouds and manage to understand when you're the target (which is easy if you purposely lure them).

What annoy me me is that when I survived an assault from them, I can't punish them (if they play good).
They are too resilient to punishment with all their stealth and shadowsteps.

That's very irritating, in a warrior's point of view, to have anticipated a thief assault, survived it, but have no way to punish them and stop them from doing it again 30 secs later. I'm not talking about noob thieves here.

So I would raise CDs on their shadowsteps/stealth. So that if they failed killing me, they're dead.

In short, Thieves could stealth to kill, or stealth to defend, but not do both at the same time.

[Setima]

The cooldowns are already too long to use them more than once a fight (Shadowstep is 60 seconds for example).  All you have to do is watch any good fight against a Thief who's not very good and blows his cooldowns at the wrong times. Once house is down and shadowstep is down there's not much left. If they're using Signet of Shadows he's got 1 less utility to stealth with, and any of his elites are on at least 90 second cooldowns. Stealth for this class is the class mechanic the same as Warrior's is Adrenaline, Necros have Death Shroud, etc. It defines them and it protects them. You can't take it away at this point, they tried doing that in Beta, it nuked the class to total shit in one patch. Anet went "ooops!" and undid the change and suddenly they were okay to use again. Hell in one Beta Thief had permanent stealth as long as they hit CnD every 4 seconds whether they hit something or not. I would gladly take that and do half damage just for the scouting ability in World vs World.

The whole point of all of these arguments and opinions simply comes down to this: "I got killed by somebody that's better at his class than I am at mine and now that I'm butt hurt, I want to come cry on a forum to blame the game rather than myself for losing the fight." I'm not going to say that certain things shouldn't be changed or fixed, such as bugged damage or skills that do things they shouldn't do, but almost every post I read about nerf, nerf, nerf still comes down to the fact that somebody lost the fight (and it doesn't just have to be against a Thief, I hear Elementalists are getting the stinky eye now as well), and rather than think about what they could do to improve their playstyle so they win the fight next time, they want the developers to dumb the game down until they can win without the effort. That's how I see things anyway.

[Mursie]

I don't even know why thiefs are allowed to do dmg.  As one earlier poster said, thieves should only be scouters and annoyances that do things like poison food supplies and steal your money.  They shouldn't be able to actually kill anyone.  WTF anet.