66 replies to this topic

[The Trouble With Me]

dawdler, on 11 November 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

If the shitty Engineer mortar is revamped to work like every other damn mortar and siege equipment in the game, I'll dust off my Engineer and start playing it in WvW again. Then the Engineer would have a niche in WvW - artillery support and pounding keep walls. It would step up the pace of keep attacks and introduce a method of always having siege equipment available on a cooldown, rather than blueprint.

That would be way ovp. Merely increasing the range to over 1200, which is the traited range of grenades, would make it reasonable.

[SlappedYak]

Sicsoo, on 12 November 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

on the official site there is this pic now, with 2 engineers using both the elixir guns. who knows if it is just a coincidence or a real input for an "upgraded" elixir gun (only a healing support kit at the moment for me).

Elixer guns ftw I'd love them to buff up the kits - i play elixer gun for the support skills, but if they upped the range and dmg of the poison and condition skills that would be great. Re the nade nerf - I think the thing they should try and change is having "one kit to rule them all" = Kit swapping builds are the most fun imho, I want a engineer that is flexible (like that is how I imagined the class) which is not what I see as it's pretty much grenades or nothing for most engis atm

[Arxae]

matsif, on 12 November 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

by portable, I would think that it means that I could go pick up my turrets with use key and be able to replace them after no/shortened cooldown instead of having to waste them by destroying them whenever I have to move to a new location.  really the only thing that's keeping me off of turrets right now.

Aah, like that. I would approve, i wouldn't mind that at all. It would be fitting and doesn't make turrets look like mechanical necro minions. Some people said they want turrets on wheels.

You get to do something like that in the ash legion storyline of the charr.

But i'm wondering, how? What button. Should pickup (shorter cd) be a different button? Should engineers get a unique button to bind for that? One of the F keys? (close enough -> pickup, else explode). A ui element?

[ArtimiseFlare]

justOneWord, on 12 November 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

I'm sure a lot of people would trade their CC for more damage. It's just not that useful in dungeons.

Erm..what?

CC is extremely useful from the dungeons I've been in, especially when a melee mob can pound you into the dirt with just about one hit.

Honestly I value CC a lot, it gives the harder hitting casters and such more breathing room so that the melee, if applicable, can do their jobs.

Not exactly what game you're playing, but I most certainly wouldn't trade my ability to help keep my group alive to boost my own DPS, that's just plain selfish IMO.

[Heart Collector]

I just want them to fix my flamethrowers targeting

[justOneWord]

Yes, guess we aren't playing the same game. Bosses are unaffected by certain CC, only slightly affected by others (blind) and only hit by every fifth other CC. There are certain trashmobs that pose a treat and could use some CC (Arah), but they are easier to bring down if you just reflect their projectiles (which I wouldn't call CC).

And there are enough bosses and champions, even some silver mobs, that are completely immune to any CC whatsoever, or still do full damage even if they are knocked down.

I have never seen a boss that made me think "Man I wish we only did a third of the damage so we can knock that boss down twice a minute". Not that interrupting an ability at the right moment would get you any benefit over a plain dodge anyway and most of the time it's actually harder to do.

If you go against the harder bosses in the game like Lupicus, chances are you will have a much better chance of survival if you equip something that will help you avoid attacks, apply boons or revive allies. No way you're going to equip a CC.

Edited by justOneWord, 13 November 2012 - 12:51 PM.

[CepaCepa]

Runkleford, on 12 November 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

The problem is that a lot of you are so focused on damage that you're ignoring the amount of CC that the profession can do. I don't think the profession should ever do as much damage as other professions and still retain the amount of CC that it has. The kits really don't need more damage they have plenty of utility to hinder enemies for you to do the damage.

But I'd rather not go into this further because I've had this discussion a million times.

What CC does a grenadier engineer have? A blind? As a damage specced engineer you lose out on CC, but so do every other profession when they go full damage. If you CHOOSE to lose out on something, you should get compensated in other ways, that's the essence of "decision". You simply cannot argue for CC being "complement" of damage --- CC is needed when it's needed. It's a TOTAL WASTE of potential damage if your group does not need it for that dungeon or for that fight. Damage is a very essential component of a group setup, high damage means you can burst down that ranged mob within projectile reflect duration, high damage also means you clear a run twice as fast.

First of all, engineers do not "excel in CC" like you've being trying to argue when compared to other professions. We CAN do support, and arguably do it slightly better than say, a support thief. But I don't know where the "we are the ultimate support profession" idea comes from, if you HAVE to name the king of support, it goes either to Elementalist or Guardian anyways. You mentioned particularly Crowd Control, so here it is: Projectile reflect? That's mesmer and guardian no matter how you look at it. Blind? That's guardian and thief. Knock down/Knock back? That's either guardian or warrior, and even an elementalist can do an excellent job. Yeah, you CAN reflect projectile, you CAN do knock down/knock back, but so can every other profession, some of them worse than you, some of them better. But ALL can, especially if they trait for it.

Second, a major point in GW2 is that they don't want each profession pigeon holed into a single role. They want everyone to be on par with each other within acceptable error, at EVERYTHING, as long as you've traited and geared for that purpose. They want a thief to be able to support if he wants to, and indeed a thief can. They want everyone to be doing good enough damage if they go full berserker and choose the melee weapon, and indeed they can. That is, unless grenade is nerfed to the point of our other kits, then the engineer would not be able to keep up. Therefore you can't just say "play another profession" when our damage is low --- If my group needs a damage dealer at that moment, they're not going to care that "you're an engineer and you bring this and that". They don't need "this and that", they need damage at that moment.

Edited by CepaCepa, 13 November 2012 - 06:59 PM.

[Runkleford]

CepaCepa, on 13 November 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

What CC does a grenadier engineer have? A blind? As a damage specced engineer you lose out on CC, but so do every other profession when they go full damage. If you CHOOSE to lose out on something, you should get compensated in other ways, that's the essence of "decision". You simply cannot argue for CC being "complement" of damage --- CC is needed when it's needed. It's not needed and in fact a TOTAL WASTE of potential damage if your group does not need it for that dungeon or for that fight.

First of all, engineers do not "excel in CC" like you've being trying to argue when compared to other professions. We CAN do support, and arguably do it slightly better than say, a support thief. But I don't know where the "we are the ultimate support profession" idea comes from, if you HAVE to name the king of support, it goes either to Elementalist or Guardian anyways. You mentioned particularly Crowd Control, so here it is: Projectile reflect? That's mesmer and guardian no matter how you look at it. Blind? That's guardian and thief. Knock down/Knock back? That's either guardian or warrior, and even an elementalist can do an excellent job. Yeah, you CAN reflect projectile, you CAN do knock down/knock back, but so can every other profession, some of them worse than you, some of them better. But ALL can, especially if they trait for it.

Second, a major point in GW2 is that they don't want each profession pigeon holed into a single role. They want everyone to be on par with each other within acceptable error, at EVERYTHING, as long as you've traited and geared for that purpose. They want a thief to be able to support if he wants to, and indeed a thief can. They want everyone to be doing good enough damage if they go full berserker and choose the melee weapon, and indeed they can. That is, unless grenade is nerfed to the point of our other kits, then the engineer would not be able to keep up. Therefore you can't just say "play another profession" when our damage is low --- If my group needs a damage dealer at that moment, they're not going to care that "you're an engineer and you bring this and that". They don't need "this and that", they need damage at that moment.

Who says I'm ONLY talking about grenades? Also, blind is not the only CC on the grenade kit. There's chilling too. Also compared to other profession the Engineer CC have faster cooldown rates, so that's why it can churn out more CC. And even more so if you build a heavy kit spec. You can compare this yourself and do the math.

And in dungeons, bosses aren't the only enemy, there are adds and trash mobs. So just because most CC doesn't work on bosses doesn't mean CC is "wasted" as you've claimed. But feel free to continue the "Rarrw need more damage!" mentality.

[CepaCepa]

Runkleford, on 13 November 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

Who says I'm ONLY talking about grenades? Also, blind is not the only CC on the grenade kit. There's chilling too. Also compared to other profession the Engineer CC have faster cooldown rates, so that's why it can churn out more CC. And even more so if you build a heavy kit spec. You can compare this yourself and do the math.

And in dungeons, bosses aren't the only enemy, there are adds and trash mobs. So just because most CC doesn't work on bosses doesn't mean CC is "wasted" as you've claimed. But feel free to continue the "Rarrw need more damage!" mentality.

I have a full support elementalist and a "tank" precision guardian, I KNOW that support can be a big difference... And because of that, I can compare the support "potential" across professions, and engineer is not the best on there. I use grenade #3 and pistol #3 to chain blind an enemy, I use grenade #4 and pistol #5 to aoe kite enemy, I use grenade #5 and pistol #2 to keep an enemy poisoned. But after all, almost any profession has these things built in, an elementalist can aoe kite just as well if not better, and many of the professions can't even avoid putting on weakness/vulnerability/blind even if they try. You simply cannot argue that the engineer is "superior" to those other professions in putting out these conditions. It's simply not something to boast about, not saying they're not useful, but they're NOT engineer specialty.

And, I'd count blind and chill as conditions, not CC. CC would be those situations listed on "stability"'s tooltip: knock down, knock back, stun, things like that. If you want to compare the number of conditions that you can apply to an enemy, and how useful those conditions are, that's another topic in itself and necro players may want a word with you.

And I did the math, the problem is: blind is not something that you just throw out on CD. It's best used when you're watching enemy animation and cast it right before he does an attack. It gets used up by 1 attack, so unless you have a constant blind field, it's better utilized by a profession such as guardian, who emphasizes on controlling a fight with micro-management. The math doesn't help here. What the math does help is for example, poison field of the grenade --- It's good, one of the best if you need that 50% less healing for some fights, especially if you couple it with pistols. But it's in no way an engineer specialty, rangers with a spider can keep 100% poison up time with ease, necro can do that with auto attack, and even thieves can have a good poison uptime. For chill, again, many professions have similar effect on similar CD, such as staff elementalist and axe ranger. Why is grenade engineer the best here?

Don't get me wrong, so many conditions with grenade is a good thing, but without enough damage, you won't be able to pull the weight in a group where EVERYONE is bringing multiple conditions/CC, and those other people can at the same time out damage you.

When I say CC is "wasted", it's the same as "extra health is wasted if you don't get hit once". Imagine if you put 20 trait points to get that one extra stun every 20 second, now that's perhaps 200 power/precision that you're missing, along with some very good damage traits. In a fight where you can stun an enemy and stunning an enemy has huge rewards, it's worth it. In a fight if your guardian is controlling the mob and constantly above 90% health anyways and everyone is just free-nuking, it's 20 points wasted and hence, lots of damage lost. What does that mean? It means it takes 10 seconds extra for your group to down that trash pack, and over the whole dungeon it could be 3-5 min longer to run. Taking the longer and safer approach definitely helps in dungeons such as Arah, but for things like AC and HotW where no one ever dies anyways, it's just wasted points.

[Calebrus]

CepaCepa, on 13 November 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

over the whole dungeon it could be 3-5 min longer to run.

OH MY GODS!!!111!!!!!!111111111eleventy!!!!!!!!!!!
Three to five extra minutes?  Of game time? Of playing a game that you supposedly enjoy?
How would I find the strength and courage to carry on living?

[IDarko]

Nice suggestions guys! Imagine the fun in Dungeons.. Oh wait, what about PvP?

Even in a PvE forum, one could think about the implications.

Edited by IDarko, 14 November 2012 - 04:20 AM.

[Trei]

I'll laugh if it turns out half the bullet points are about the same things...
- autoattack default on kit A
- autoattack default on kit B
- autoattack default on kit C
- autoattack default on kit D
- autoattack default on kit E
- aut.....

[Arxae]

Trei, on 14 November 2012 - 04:27 AM, said:

I'll laugh if it turns out half the bullet points are about the same things...
- autoattack default on kit A
- autoattack default on kit B
- autoattack default on kit C
- autoattack default on kit D
- autoattack default on kit E
- aut.....

I have autoattack on all my kits. I had to manually turn it on for my flamethrower once though. After that it had autoattack by default

[Arxae]

FoxBat, on 12 November 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

You can pick up turrets now with a 25% reduction in cooldown. Granted that often doesn't feel like much. Think it used to be 50% in one of the early BWEs, so Anet has played with more dramatic values before.

He (and me too) ment that you could literally pick them up, carry them somewhere else and put them back down. Like the anti-ghost turret in the personal story if you played that route.

EDIT: double post :f my bad, mislooked at page number

Edited by Arxae, 14 November 2012 - 01:59 PM.

[CepaCepa]

Calebrus, on 14 November 2012 - 04:13 AM, said:

OH MY GODS!!!111!!!!!!111111111eleventy!!!!!!!!!!!
Three to five extra minutes?  Of game time? Of playing a game that you supposedly enjoy?
How would I find the strength and courage to carry on living?

I would agree with you full heartedly and I'm typically the one in pugs trying to persuade people to not exploit and do a dungeon the "proper way" but... If you've got a specific token item in mind and you desperately want to get it ASAP, you'd know how precious those 5-10 minutes are. If you have guildies to help (that they want to level up in dungeons) you'd also notice how precious those 5-10 minutes are. If you've ran every path of every dungoen 20+ times already, you start wanting to maximize it. Because maximizing efficiency and breezing through a dungeon feels good in and of itself. It's not a game changing deal, but it's noticeable enough. Such that it's worth a discussion.

You keep going back to the movie theatre, because at least SOME aspects of it has been wonderful and you've enjoyed it, it doesn't mean that you loved every single second of every single movie and every single piece of popcorn that you've ever seen/eaten there. And yes, sometimes you talk about how awful a movie is with other movie goers. Other times you may complain to the cashier that the popcorn is burnt and hope that they'd fix this. All of these would be intended to make your theatre-going experience more enjoyable in the future.

Edited by CepaCepa, 14 November 2012 - 05:32 PM.

[Runkleford]

CepaCepa, on 13 November 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

And, I'd count blind and chill as conditions, not CC.

CC is not limited to controlling movement of enemies, it's restricting the ability of the enemy to effectively attack so blind definitely falls under that category.

Quote

Crowd control (also called CC) is a term used in massive multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPG)s and MOBA (Multiplayer Online Battle Arena) games to refer to the ability to limit the number of mobs actively fighting during an encounter.^[1] It can also refer to abilities that influence or prevent the abilities or actions of other character(s). Crowd control can be extremely powerful, controlling the possible outcomes of an encounter, as it forces opponents to use a smaller set of abilities/actions. Players use crowd control to create offense/defense ratio imbalances between themselves and their opponent(s); used properly, CC often renders an opponent nearly useless, allowing the CCer to use abilities/actions against an opponent without fear of retaliation or response. In a group setting, crowd control often makes combat safer, easier, or viable.

But hey if you want to change the definition of terms to win arguments then fine. The point is that the Engineer has a lot of utility to hinder enemies without needed extra damage no matter how you want to define video game terms.

Sorry but you're not going to convince me that those "extra" 5 minutes longer in the dungeons is cause enough to change the engineer into a damage dealer rather than a CC oriented profession. If 5 minutes really is such a hindrance for you, why not use the different profession?

[Achromatis]

Looks kinda like a haox if you ask me, I wouldnt put any stock into it unless there was some kind of developer tag in the guys name.

[CepaCepa]

Runkleford, on 14 November 2012 - 05:52 PM, said:

CC is not limited to controlling movement of enemies, it's restricting the ability of the enemy to effectively attack so blind definitely falls under that category.



But hey if you want to change the definition of terms to win arguments then fine. The point is that the Engineer has a lot of utility to hinder enemies without needed extra damage no matter how you want to define video game terms.

Sorry but you're not going to convince me that those "extra" 5 minutes longer in the dungeons is cause enough to change the engineer into a damage dealer rather than a CC oriented profession. If 5 minutes really is such a hindrance for you, why not use the different profession?

If you have a point, state your point, and I'll tackle that point. If you don't, making cynical remarks is just cowardice. How do you suppose I can respond to "if you want to change the definition of terms to win arguments then fine"? That's labelling someone's remark without any kind of confirmation and support, you're trying to make me do a LOT of explanation with a unjustified remark, when you know full well that it's not what I meant. That's cowardice. Nevertheless, I shall answer you.

1. Definition for things like these, like any other definitions, suffers from changes of situations and scenarios, and often require further definitions. The point of having "definition" is to communicate. Therefore having definition obstruct meaningful conversation is bad logic. For example, is killing that mob not "limiting the target's actions and its potential danger"? So is damage CC too then? And if you go word by word you CAN argue that way, but what use is it in our communication then? That word "CC" would be meaningless, since it can no longer differentiate between one set of skills from another set of skills. From another angle, I can argue that "limiting the target's action" necessarily means that the target CANNOT ACT. Even if someone is blinded, he can still do whatever he does, and that's acting. Knock down however, prevents you from doing anything, not even movement.

2. I was just pointing out, that I prefer to use the term CC for things like knock down and all. I prefer to call the other things "conditions". I also recognized that you'd prefer to call everything "CC", which is fine, because like I've stated definition is useless without a common ground and I can adapt to yours. HOWEVER, I've pointed out that even for things like blind, daze, chill, cripple and weakness, some specs of other professions can also apply it just as well if not better. For example, necro.

Of course there's no convincing you, you're dead-set on the idea that engineer is a "CC oriented profession", despite there are elementalists, guardians, necromancers, and all the other professions. I've got 5 professions to level 80 and full exotic, each having 2-3 exotic sets for different builds, yes I can use a different profession, I use different professions to run different dungeons all the time. And that 5 minutes indeed makes a difference if I'm to run a 3 path dungeon every day. But you know what? Since you're making acerbic comments such as "play something else" already, here's my reply: no, I believe an engineer should be able to do mad dps, and I believe so because that's what ANet said.

[Princess Fatora]

Quote

It's just not that useful in dungeons.

lol

Quote

3-5 minutes longer

lol

I mean, it stands for itself. With a community like this, it's no wonder they are considering to dumb the game down


And to engage you directly: Engineer damage is objectively fine. Or was, before whatever sillyness the patch brings, anyway.  It's just generally better if you have more CC. Or grenades for the easy dungeons, since AOE is king for those, and Engineers have some of the best AOE in the game.

[Isti]

Cepa, I think the upshot of all your posts in this threat is that you just do not like playing an Engineer.  And that's okay!  If you enjoy your guardian or your elementalist more, that's great.  You should play them instead.  However, coming to the Engineer forum to convince everybody here that their engineers are totally useless is not likely to be a successful venture.  If you don't enjoy the way the Engineer class handles CC, that's fine.  Some of us DO actually enjoy playing a Control Engineer of some sort or other, and it is unlikely that you will be able to convince us to delete our characters and roll something else.

I enjoy playing Grenadier (AoE damage and limited AoE control), and I also enjoy playing single-target damage and control with a rifle.  There are unquestionably professions that do AoE control better than a SD-specced Engineer and professions that do single-target damage better than an SD-specced Engineer, and so on, but I invite you to find me a single class that can do ALL of that better than an Engineer without having to change specs.  I reckon one of the reasons most of us like the Engineer is its versatility, and I've been hard pressed to find a more versatile class than this one.

Edited by Isti, 14 November 2012 - 11:51 PM.

[CepaCepa]

Isti, on 14 November 2012 - 11:51 PM, said:

Cepa, I think the upshot of all your posts in this threat is that you just do not like playing an Engineer.  And that's okay!  If you enjoy your guardian or your elementalist more, that's great.  You should play them instead.  However, coming to the Engineer forum to convince everybody here that their engineers are totally useless is not likely to be a successful venture.  If you don't enjoy the way the Engineer class handles CC, that's fine.  Some of us DO actually enjoy playing a Control Engineer of some sort or other, and it is unlikely that you will be able to convince us to delete our characters and roll something else.

I enjoy playing Grenadier (AoE damage and limited AoE control), and I also enjoy playing single-target damage and control with a rifle.  There are unquestionably professions that do AoE control better than a SD-specced Engineer and professions that do single-target damage better than an SD-specced Engineer, and so on, but I invite you to find me a single class that can do ALL of that better than an Engineer without having to change specs.  I reckon one of the reasons most of us like the Engineer is its versatility, and I've been hard pressed to find a more versatile class than this one.

You get the picture wrong, which is probably because you read the posts from midway when I've already gotten into some arguments, and as a general rule of thumb in forums ANY argument that happen, will happen so in a manner that derails from the original topic...

This is my original argument: If they nerf Grenade, they should find some way to buff the damage of the other kits such that an engineer can do compatible damage with some of the other professions. I'd argue this not only for engineers, but for all professions. ANet have stated again and again and again that every profession should be able to perform every role, I'd like to see them working toward that promise, and balancing engineer is just one of the steps.

Here's how it got derailed: I pointed out that without grenade damage, we do not have a "pure dps option", hence it IS of concern of engineers and people SHOULD be talking about it. This is in direct response to "engineer is fine and everyone who doesn't want grenades nerfed is complaining too much". I'm saying, engineer is of course "fine" in many ways, but there's no reason to shut people up if they're concerned about losing the only high damage option to the profession.

And here's where it got into the argument of conditions/crowd control: Some argue that having lots of conditions means we do not need a viable pure damage option at all, which I disagree with. There are sacrifices to be made and definitely not everyone wants to make them, but having an option means that we CAN choose to make that sacrifice IF we wanted to. Further, some have argued that engineer SHOULD be played as a support/crowd control profession, which I further disagree with: Again, this goes against the philosophy of ANet's description that every profession should be able to diversify into all kinds of roles. Besides, I spent several posts trying to point out that there is no evidence pointing to engineer as THE crowd control character --- why do we want to pigeon hole ourselves into a particular role, when others are able to be diverse? Of course you should enjoy playing a condition engineer, but is that ground for bashing your fellow engineers for wanting to do direct damage?

The whole comparison between professions is to bring one point: While engineers CAN excel at certain things, other professions CAN as well. Therefore, the engineers shouldn't be barred from performing certain roles when other professions can (for example, damage), and hence "will I be able to do enough damage after the patch" is a legitimate concern. If others CANNOT do what the engineer does even if they've specced and built fully toward that goal, then something is wrong. Picking a profession does not automatically make us a "unique snowflake", picking our traits/builds on top of our profession will do that. Besides, to say "we are the best at CC and no others come near" when a Guardian has spent 30+ trait points and lots of gears on a CC build, is arrogant. And to deny the damage opportunity to your fellow engineers is similarly very baffling.

I invite you to read through all my posts again, you'd see that in no place have I disregarded condition damage/crowd control. OK I've been a little "harsh" on the engineer compared to other professions, which is really a cynical view of the situation and one that is intended to be a "com back argument". That was in direct reply to comments that suggest "engineer is superior support over other professions", which I find to be arrogant and untrue. Bottom line is: I've invested just as much time and effort into my engineer, I shouldn't tell you how to play your engineer, why should you tell me how to play mine? I'd welcome a buff to engineer's support ability even if I've got 30 30 0 0 10 as my traits, why should you try to silence the concerns over our most potent damage spec? Yes you can be perfectly happy with your engineer, I'm quite happy with mine too, but there is such a thing called "the greater good" which starts with supporting the community's concerns and ends in everybody being happier than even before.

Edited by CepaCepa, 15 November 2012 - 01:35 AM.

[justOneWord]

Princess Fatora, on 14 November 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

I mean, it stands for itself. With a community like this, it's no wonder they are considering to dumb the game down

You have it backwards. Because the game is so easy, and that in a very specific way, there is no need to overcome difficult timing, setting up balanced groups or put focus on healing or CC. People play dumb if that's all they required to do. ArenaNet caters to the crowd, but people only stop playing due to difficulty if there is no way for them to cope. Right now I'd say that 80% of all players have cleared every dungeon path except Arah. I'd like them to make the dungeons harder. But until then there is no need for crazy theory, min-maxing till exhaustion.

Other MMOs might require you to deal a certain amount of damage in a certain amount of time, otherwise the encounter is a defeat. In such a situation you would do as you must and put a focus on dealing damage. No CC might be required, because using CC might reduce your damage output (and it should). Now another encounter might pop up, suddenly requiring you to keep the encounter from using his doomsday-thingie by knocking him on his butt all the time. Now your focus would be different.

Now there are two ways to handle such a fight. Keeping it safe by using as much CC as possible. Or having just enough CC as necessary.

If you put any value on your time you will do the former.

Now take a stern look at GW2. Do we have encounters that require pure damage? Not really (since they patched path 1 CoF there isn't one). Do we have one that requires lots of CC? Not really.

Why would throwing CC out of your window to shorten the fights suddenly be stupid, immature? It's the natural reaction to an easy fight. As soon as harder encounters come up you surely will hear people whining, but there are enough players who will then seek different approaches.

Quote

Engineer damage is objectively fine.

Fine doesn't really cut it. Even if you don't care about damage, maybe others do. If there ever will be a dungeon that requires some brain you might suddenly see people calling for certain classes again. Why? Because why not, "who needs that flamethrower engineer anyway, invite the warrior or we'll never get past phase 4, does lots more damage and his elite ressurection is golden".

I don't think people think that the grenades don't do enough damage. But other kits definitely don't. The toolkit provides less CC, less utility and still does less damage than the grenades. But only to a single target even! I wouldn't call that fine.

There is not enough diversity. The abilities are just scrambled all over the place. If the gear shield is there you would think the toolkit is used for tanky builds. But that skill is actually worse than the shield ones. Thumper turret? Useless. Thumper turrets toolbelt skill? Worst skill in the game. I don't need to go on, you probably know which skills you used once and then never again.

Edited by justOneWord, 15 November 2012 - 05:23 PM.

[Princess Fatora]

Quote

Fine doesn't really cut it

If you need to be better than other professions as far as damage goes, then sadly, I don't think that you really understand what balance means.

Fine does cut it, because that should be the end goal of balance in a multiplayer game.

[Xunlai Agent]

If they nerf grenadier specs then they need to hugely boost or revamp the other kits in my opinion!

[Killyox]

Got hints from someone that it'smostly bug changes.

Anyways today we will see it for ourselves in ~5-6 hours.

[Smallwalk]

+ sigils to affect kits! new wepons new sigs we dont want to get left behind!

[Killyox]

CepaCepa, on 14 November 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

I would agree with you full heartedly and I'm typically the one in pugs trying to persuade people to not exploit and do a dungeon the "proper way" but... If you've got a specific token item in mind and you desperately want to get it ASAP, you'd know how precious those 5-10 minutes are.

Are you aware of how childish this sounds? For me i am not a kid anymore, not since a long time. And i don't act like one thus no "wat want want asap!!!!" moments. If you can't wait 5 minutes for something this is telling of you.

[Killyox]

The Trouble With Me, on 13 November 2012 - 03:24 AM, said:

That would be way ovp. Merely increasing the range to over 1200, which is the traited range of grenades, would make it reasonable.

Do you play engineer? Doesn't look like it. Traited grenades are 1500. And mortar is already 1400 untraited. Seems like you have no idea what you are talking about.

Tey hit harder, they are faster, they got greater variety, they scale with stats, you can switch to them anytime you want, you dont waste elite slot, you are not forced to stand in single spot, they don't have dead zone, they got longer range.

Mortar is just piss poor. We only got 1 decent elite, supply drop.

Edited by Killyox, 15 November 2012 - 11:49 AM.

[The Trouble With Me]

Killyox, on 15 November 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

Do you play engineer? Doesn't look like it. Traited grenades are 1500. And mortar is already 1400 untraited. Seems like you have no idea what you are talking about.

Tey hit harder, they are faster, they got greater variety, they scale with stats, you can switch to them anytime you want, you dont waste elite slot, you are not forced to stand in single spot, they don't have dead zone, they got longer range.

Mortar is just piss poor. We only got 1 decent elite, supply drop.

Well what ever, my fault for not specifying I suppose. You seem to assume I was suggesting using it as an alternative whereas it's actually useful to give other classes, who don't have aoe range, area denial. The trait to give the mortar further range doesn't work, and because it is stationary range is so paramount. It's pretty gimmicky at the best of times but making it as good as the stuff you spend supply on is just ridiculous considering how important the mechanic of supply is to wvw matches.

edit; we agree then, i'm not paying much attention

although considering how the elites of other classes are temporary and meant to change the tide of battle I don't think a mortar that you could keep up permanently should have a buff to it's aoe. I'd settle for 1800 range too.

Edited by The Trouble With Me, 15 November 2012 - 12:30 PM.

[Killyox]

The Trouble With Me, on 15 November 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

Well what ever, my fault for not specifying I suppose. You seem to assume I was suggesting using it as an alternative whereas it's actually useful to give other classes, who don't have aoe range, area denial. The trait to give the mortar further range doesn't work, and because it is stationary range is so paramount. It's pretty gimmicky at the best of times but making it as good as the stuff you spend supply on is just ridiculous considering how important the mechanic of supply is to wvw matches.

I never said a word about making it like supply stuff. I pointed your errors only. still i think mortar should have at least 2000 range and scale with stats and have a bit bigger aoe due to all its drawbacks.