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#1 Kazuhiko_Nagano

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 01:38 AM

Okay the Title might be confusing but here's what i mean.(In the following "weapon kit" stands for device kits aswell.)
Let the engineer have the option to swap weaponsets while he has no weapon kit in his utility slots. When there is a weapon kit equipped just lock the weaponswap option.

I don't have any reasons besides the normally stated ones for every suggestion:
It would be more fun.
It would feel better.
It would not be unbalanced in any way, it would be even more balance than right now.

How i get to the idea, i haven't played Engineer yet so i asked friends what weaponset is best on Engi, i got several different answers and it happened often that they complained about not having the ability to swap sets which led me to say "you got your kits mate, just use them", the most common answer to that was "but i mostly dont have kit equipped" or "yeh but i don't want to be forced to use a kit to be effective.". So i asked them to ask around other engineers they know if they feel similar and i came up with this idea. All of them agreed with me that it would make sense to have an "autolock" for weaponswap when a weapon kit is in the bar and be free to swap while there is none.

I think (don't know) it should be pretty easy to program and implement it to the game.

I'd really like to hear your suggestions or thoughts to this.

Thanks for reading.

#2 VanderBeltLegacy

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 02:16 PM

as some1 who play's engineer, have to say Engineer is OP enough, take turrets for example, i dont always deploy them(unless its a worthy fight), but the F1-F4 skills are great,[snare/damage/heal] and healing turret is awesome party support,, i always switch up my utility skills, and never once have found a need to weapon swap, take the pistol for example, it has decent DPS+conditions+confusion(spread), rifle=good DPS, has snare+push back, shield=push back+interupt, if able to weapon swap and mix it upm people in WvW+PvP would complain endlessly how OP we'd be. and alot of the time i dont run kits either, elixirs are great in there own right..

#3 Kazuhiko_Nagano

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 02:40 PM

Afaik even Anet stated that they cannot swap weapons because they have the kits. (Haven't found it tbh but i am pretty sure it was stated somewhere). The F1-4 are nothing more than other professions F-skills.

Have you played guardian? When u equip GS and Scepter/Focus for example:
GS=gapcloser+blind, a pull + interrupt, high DPS
Scepter = immobilization, relatively high DPS -> Focus = 3 hits of the enemy going nowhere.
To that you are normaly much tankier and every 40/30 seconds Aegis or once whenever you need it for a whole grp if balled up enough.

You can take every class and put them in a light which seems OP but i am pretty sure Engineers wouldn't be over the top with a weaponswap option.

Thanks for your answer anyhow.

#4 VanderBeltLegacy

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 03:36 PM

View PostKazuhiko_Nagano, on 11 November 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

Afaik even Anet stated that they cannot swap weapons because they have the kits.
did i say otherwise?, NO...Afaik, Ele cant weapon swap cus it has attunements.(see i can do it to)

also a FULLY/Properly traited engineer is the 3rd highest DPS class in the game behind the ele and war, and guardians F1-F4 skills are not that great in DPS if compared to an engineer, not to mention the engineers  F1-F4 skills are the most changable, depending on your utilitys, you have 3 healing F1 to choose from, 18 utiliy F2-F4 skills to choose from, not to mention Racial skills aswell and on top of that once a turret is deployed it can be exploded, using the  F1-F4 skills(so thats more to the count),, where as every other class is pre-set to weapons.

#5 Kazuhiko_Nagano

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 04:17 PM

Okay you want it this way...

View PostVanderBeltLegacy, on 11 November 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

Afaik, Ele cant weapon swap cus it has attunements.(see i can do it to)

Thats the points its the Eles F1-4  and are not interchangable like utility kits. But if you want it "even" you could decide to lock 2 attunemnts or whatever, little option like stowing your pet... but as Ele i never felt like on Engi having "less" skills when not having kits equipped.

Quote

...also a FULLY/Properly traited engineer is the 3rd highest DPS class in the game behind the ele and war ...

Ever played properly and fully traited/equipped thieves? They even shred guardians in seconds if they dont go full tank, and full tanks just take longer and still die.

Quote

... guardians F1-F4 skills are not that great in DPS if compared to an engineer...

Tell me why the * is DPS your only argument? You can block and counterheal DPS with guardian traits and put your enemies on fire so comparing DPS-F1-4 to Sustain-F1-4 is stupid...


Quote

...not to mention the engineers  F1-F4 skills are the most changable, depending on your utilitys, you have 3 healing F1 to choose from, 18 utiliy F2-F4 skills to choose from, not to mention Racial skills aswell and on top of that once a turret is deployed it can be exploded, using the  F1-F4 skills(so thats more to the count),, where as every other class is pre-set to weapons.

You still just have F1-4 in battle they are not changeable in combat, so all your fancy numbers are just hot air... you cannot decide which F1-4 you want to use without equipping the fitting utility even if you dont want them, if you could choose freely as "extra utilities" okay, but not like this.




Anyone else got something to say? :)

#6 VanderBeltLegacy

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 04:56 PM

View PostKazuhiko_Nagano, on 11 November 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

Okay you want it this way...



Thats the points its the Eles F1-4  and are not interchangable like utility kits. But if you want it "even" you could decide to lock 2 attunemnts or whatever, little option like stowing your pet... but as Ele i never felt like on Engi having "less" skills when not having kits equipped.



Ever played properly and fully traited/equipped thieves? They even shred guardians in seconds if they dont go full tank, and full tanks just take longer and still die.



Tell me why the * is DPS your only argument? You can block and counterheal DPS with guardian traits and put your enemies on fire so comparing DPS-F1-4 to Sustain-F1-4 is stupid...




You still just have F1-4 in battle they are not changeable in combat, so all your fancy numbers are just hot air... you cannot decide which F1-4 you want to use without equipping the fitting utility even if you dont want them, if you could choose freely as "extra utilities" okay, but not like this.




Anyone else got something to say? :)
before i counter respond, i have every proffession in the game, you dont even have an engineer yet.(said in your 1st post)

Thats the points its the Eles F1-4  and are not interchangable like utility kits. But if you want it "even" you could decide to lock 2 attunemnts or whatever, little option like stowing your pet... but as Ele i never felt like on Engi having "less" skills when not having kits equipped.
some1 missed sarcasm, also we have 4 attunements on ele, thats 20 skills from the wielded weapon alone+utility's, no arguments about ranger.

Tell me why the * is DPS your only argument? You can block and counterheal DPS with guardian traits and put your enemies on fire so comparing DPS-F1-4 to Sustain-F1-4 is stupid.
my other POST YOU quoted already explained the Snares, self+party wide rejuvenation/heals/boons, your counter argument to that mainly targeted DPS(and since i mentioned the above snares etc already, it was pointless to re-state the same thing.

You still just have F1-4 in battle they are not changeable in combat, so all your fancy numbers are just hot air... you cannot decide which F1-4 you want to use without equipping the fitting utility even if you dont want them, if you could choose freely as "extra utilities" okay, but not like this
so what if there not changable in combat?,there is still THAT MANY to choose from to suit your play style, while other classes are set in cement, SMH if your not understanding this, +2 secs out of combat to change a utility, so no biggie at all.

Ever played properly and fully traited/equipped thieves? They even shred guardians in seconds if they dont go full tank, and full tanks just take longer and still die.
in WvW many times, and in a 1v1 situation=player skill has everything to do with it, cus, i also have seen them thiefs, be shredded in return by a guardian who was more experienced and had a glass cannon trait set up.(my friend was the guardian).

now stop sounding like the "i want, gimme NOW" crowed. you asked peoples opinions, you didnt ask to debate.

Edited by VanderBeltLegacy, 11 November 2012 - 04:59 PM.


#7 Valkaire

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 05:52 PM

The thing that makes engineers special are their weapon kits. That's a big part of what they are and their style of play. If people don't like it I'd have to say engineer really isn't for them. I run dungeons with some engineers from my guild, way better than other engineers I've run with and they fully utilize their weapon kits so I'm unsure why people don't like them.

#8 Kazuhiko_Nagano

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 06:37 PM

@VanderBeltLegacy

Let's agree to disagree, you say wepswap would be OP while i completely don't think so.
And yeh i didnt ask to debate but i thought i would share my thoughts about your posts aswell...


Quote

...I'm unsure why people don't like them.

Point is, people don't like to be "forced" to play the kits to have the "same amount" of skills than other professions. The variety in F1-4 Skills is irrelevant.

I just say it wouldn't hurt anyone or anything ingame to have the wepswap option but it would make many people happier.

#9 Valkaire

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 07:28 PM

View PostKazuhiko_Nagano, on 11 November 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

@VanderBeltLegacy

Let's agree to disagree, you say wepswap would be OP while i completely don't think so.
And yeh i didnt ask to debate but i thought i would share my thoughts about your posts aswell...




Point is, people don't like to be "forced" to play the kits to have the "same amount" of skills than other professions. The variety in F1-4 Skills is irrelevant.

I just say it wouldn't hurt anyone or anything ingame to have the wepswap option but it would make many people happier.

And elementalists don't have that? No one in this game is forced to do anything. Elementalists and engineers don't have to use their attunements or kits but the option is there, which is why there isn't weapon swapping. The attraction of engineers to people (every engineer in my guild and friends) is the uniqueness of the weapon kits. They always use at least one and love the diversity it gives for different areas of dungeons or playing. An elementalist can stay in one attunement forever and swap between their weapons, so can an engineer but it does not fully utilize everything they have. A good engineer and elementalist know how to fully utilize their unique attunement/kit system to bring out maximum benefit. You can manage without using them, or only using one but that's always going to be sub-par compared to using all that they're given. That's how it works, and if they try to balance around people not using those options then you get a plain mess to balance that would be more worth taking out those options, turning them into something they were never designed to be like.

#10 Midnight_Tea

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 07:37 PM

Every profession has a certain mindset behind it. The engineer's mindset isn't that of a frontline fighter. Oh sure, they fight alright, but they're geniuses and gadgeteers before they're fighters. Their abilities and limitations match that. An engineer that isn't constantly swapping kits and utilities to optimal and ingenious effect isn't in the right mindset.

If you're playing the profession because you want to be an awesome gun fighter you're just as well off rolling a rifle warrior or pistol thief.

Edited by Midnight_Tea, 11 November 2012 - 07:39 PM.


#11 Kazuhiko_Nagano

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 07:37 PM

Quote

That's how it works, and if they try to balance around people not using those options then you get a plain mess to balance that would be more worth taking out those options, turning them into something they were never designed to be like.

It wouldn't disturb the balance, it would just be a profit for players not using kits.Thats why i suggest a "either or" option. Either you use kits and play as people are "supposed to" or you just have your 2 wepsets which are just the same as using a kit -> you get your skills 1-5 replaced.

#12 Arfuriz

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 08:02 PM

I know your intentions are good but I think that your idea is just complicating what for most people is already a good and balanced system. And for what? For the sake of more customisation and a broader choice of playstyles? Which is good don't get me wrong but there's got to be a limit somewhere or the classes just end up feeling the same.

Edit: Just to clarify on that last sentence that I think it would take the uniqueness and importance of choosing a class.

Edited by Arfuriz, 11 November 2012 - 08:04 PM.


#13 VanderBeltLegacy

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 08:09 PM

View PostValkaire, on 11 November 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

And elementalists don't have that? No one in this game is forced to do anything. Elementalists and engineers don't have to use their attunements or kits but the option is there, which is why there isn't weapon swapping. The attraction of engineers to people (every engineer in my guild and friends) is the uniqueness of the weapon kits. They always use at least one and love the diversity it gives for different areas of dungeons or playing. An elementalist can stay in one attunement forever and swap between their weapons, so can an engineer but it does not fully utilize everything they have. A good engineer and elementalist know how to fully utilize their unique attunement/kit system to bring out maximum benefit. You can manage without using them, or only using one but that's always going to be sub-par compared to using all that they're given. That's how it works, and if they try to balance around people not using those options then you get a plain mess to balance that would be more worth taking out those options, turning them into something they were never designed to be like.
yep, just like mesmers who roll Staff+Wand/"insert offhand choice", there not utilising the full power of the mesmer(choice), and are very support type players(wich is acctually a strength to mesmer), appose to the Great Sword+"weapon choice" players who can DPS+Support. it's all personal choice on being Optimal or Sub

#14 TGIFrisbie

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 08:28 PM

Another non-engineer specific "Engineer Issue".  Eles are limited in the same regard, it wasn't an error or a mistake, it was a deisgn decision.  Much like the 'let sigil effects persist when kits are equipped' isn't an Engineer specific issue that many consider it to be.

Both effect multiple professions, both are obvious design decisions.  You need better qualifiers to convince a team that spent about 7 years on the game (from concept to release) than "Better" and "More fun".

#15 Kazuhiko_Nagano

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 08:33 PM

Quote

And for what? For the sake of more customisation and a broader choice of playstyles?

Well you just have just 3 possible wepsets anyway. (Rifle P/P P/S)
That's what i mean with "force ppl to use kits". You just have a weaponskill range of 12 anyway and then they don't let you use em? Someone said Engineers should have ("lore-wise") the ability to use their gadgets n stuff, weapons just gadgets and i think the "genius Engineer" should at least be able to switch between 2 of those 3 possible weaponsets in exchange for the ability to use kits.

Quote

Just to clarify on that last sentence that I think it would take the uniqueness and importance of choosing a class.

This "uniqueness" is just on ele and engineer anyways... I don't think anyone would have bothered if they had weaponswap from the start...

#16 Arfuriz

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 09:05 PM

View PostKazuhiko_Nagano, on 11 November 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

Well you just have just 3 possible wepsets anyway. (Rifle P/P P/S)
That's what i mean with "force ppl to use kits". You just have a weaponskill range of 12 anyway and then they don't let you use em? Someone said Engineers should have ("lore-wise") the ability to use their gadgets n stuff, weapons just gadgets and i think the "genius Engineer" should at least be able to switch between 2 of those 3 possible weaponsets in exchange for the ability to use kits.



This "uniqueness" is just on ele and engineer anyways... I don't think anyone would have bothered if they had weaponswap from the start...

What I meant by being unique is more about the mechanics and aesthetics overall not just not having weapon swap. The engineer is about inventions, kits and potions not about being skilled fighters or marksmen. What you would like to have would be the choice to be that as an engineer right? Well you do there are 7 other classes to choose from.

I hate to be one of those people that are like "if don't like it play something else" but in my opinion the way the engineer was designed is just fine and having weapon swap would take a lot of the enginner's flavour the some way if you gave kits to warriors or stealth to guardians for example.

#17 Kazuhiko_Nagano

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 09:26 PM

Got all 7 classes alrdy. Saved Engi for the finale, i just played few days (2or3) to level ~40 and i just dont like any kit besides grenades for... well... spamming skill 1. Having Rifle and P/P would be so much more fun (imo) because i would have 10 skills i use instead of just 6 (wepset + grenade1).

To say wepswap would be equal to giving someone else kits is just... wrong, like i said i bet not a single soul would have even mentioned that the Engi needs to be "nerfed" to 1 wepset if they started with wepswap option. (even if you could have 2 wepsets + kits)
It would just be Ele-unique to just have 1 wepset.

#18 Arfuriz

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 09:47 PM

I don't know I guess it could work with having a weapon swap but there's got to be a reason why anet didn't make that way.

I'm using a rifle and switching to flamethrower and bombs and I love it because all I see and hear is gun powder, explosions and fire, it's just chaotic and more fun than being a warrior just swinging your sword/axe/mace or whatever. I still like playing a warrior but it's interesting that I find more fun to play a enginneer or a D/D elementalist because of the chaos I can create and mobility aswell with the ele.

#19 VanderBeltLegacy

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 03:41 AM

View PostKazuhiko_Nagano, on 11 November 2012 - 01:38 AM, said:

How i get to the idea, i haven't played Engineer yet so i asked friends what weaponset is best on Engi,

View PostKazuhiko_Nagano, on 11 November 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

Got all 7 classes alrdy. Saved Engi for the finale, i just played few days (2or3) to level ~40 and i just dont like any kit besides grenades for... well... spamming skill 1.
you posted this yesterday and had NO ENGINEER...now today you have a level 40 that you been playing for "a few days"???????

also if your just spamming skill 1 on grenades....you OBVIOUSLY dont use things to there full potential..Grenade Skill 5=poison spread, and not to mention the snare grenade(skill 4), skill 2 =bleed, skill 3=blind, and it's "F2-F4 counter part(depending on where it sits's on your bar) is MASSIVE damage=great as a "finisher".

and EVEN ANet knew with a weapon swap they'd be to OP. and the "have a weapon swap when theres no weapon kit" while it's a good idea, it would DESTROY the very concept anet intended for this class.

#20 Kazuhiko_Nagano

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:18 AM

View PostVanderBeltLegacy, on 12 November 2012 - 03:41 AM, said:

you posted this yesterday and had NO ENGINEER...now today you have a level 40 that you been playing for "a few days"???????

Haven't played yet -> i just started short before i posted. And yes you get 40 fast with 2 crafting maxouts...

Quote

also if your just spamming skill 1 on grenades....you OBVIOUSLY dont use things to there full potential..Grenade Skill 5=poison spread, and not to mention the snare grenade(skill 4), skill 2 =bleed, skill 3=blind, and it's "F2-F4 counter part(depending on where it sits's on your bar) is MASSIVE damage=great as a "finisher".

Yeh right i use use em on CD aswell... makes me a bad person to just mention the DPS? :<

Quote

and EVEN ANet knew with a weapon swap they'd be to OP. and the "have a weapon swap when theres no weapon kit" while it's a good idea, it would DESTROY the very concept anet intended for this class.


BULLSHIT
Not a single person would have bothered if they just implemented wepswap straight away. And you say it's OP ? Aren't you brabbling around how good the kits are? How can it be bad to "just" have a second weaponsset? Like i said i'd like to see a lock when kits are equipped not that you get kits AND wepswap...

#21 Serris

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:23 AM

if your friends don't want to use weapon kits, they should not have rolled engineers. i don't feel the weaponswap is necessary, and the reasons you summed are mostly subjective.

#22 RAD

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:25 AM

Ive got my eyes on this thread O.o

You've been warned, lets tone it down.
Something on your mind? Question about Moderation or anything else? Talk to Me.

#23 Elr3d

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:31 AM

Problem is, engineer are already the most versatile class in the game, thanks to kits and toolbelt and the vast diversity of uilities. Give us weapon swap while we have only 3 sets available, and it becomes incredibly OP.

#24 VanderBeltLegacy

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 10:33 AM

View PostRAD, on 12 November 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

Ive got my eyes on this thread O.o

You've been warned, lets tone it down.

Honestly mate close it, he's lying more and more to prove his point, and when you catch him on something, he lies about that to.


View PostKazuhiko_Nagano, on 12 November 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

Haven't played yet -> i just started short before i posted. And yes you get 40 fast with 2 crafting maxouts...



Yeh right i use use em on CD aswell... makes me a bad person to just mention the DPS? :<




BULLSHIT
Not a single person would have bothered if they just implemented wepswap straight away. And you say it's OP ? Aren't you brabbling around how good the kits are? How can it be bad to "just" have a second weaponsset? Like i said i'd like to see a lock when kits are equipped not that you get kits AND wepswap...

i'm not gonna bother calling you out on "lying about having an engineer" because you've made that obvious to everyone, that you lie to prove a point, and on another note 2 days+leveling through crafting=you havent even experienced the Engineer enough for yourself

from your post-

Quote

i just dont like any kit besides grenades for... well... spamming skill 1.
so nothing about DPS, just what you like...

and lucky LAST..dont twist my words buddy, having weapon kits+weapons swap, is to OP, 1 weapon+weapon kits=OP enough, you wanted opinions/thought's, then argue with every1 who provides one...not a great way to have a topic.
now calm down, walk away from the keyboard and take 10 deep breath's, then reply with Logic, instead of the "gimme, gimme, gimme, attitude"

#25 Coren

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 12:18 PM

The engineer mechanic is great. Its not an overly powerful profession and weapon/kit swaps are not a problem once you know how to swap them the usual way.

At OP: I find it hilarious that you want to make changes  to a class you know very little about and entirely judge your opinions on others.

It's like if I was saying that thieves need more than their steal mechanic because some thief friends feel it's an incomplete class. Maybe true but at least they can judge on experience and not second hand talk.

#26 Kazuhiko_Nagano

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 02:30 PM

Quote

i don't feel the weaponswap is necessary, and the reasons you summed are mostly subjective.

Like EVERY suggestion ?   Sry :/


Quote

I find it hilarious that you want to make changes  to a class you know very little about and entirely judge your opinions on others.

I find it hilarious how that is an argument.
So if i never r@ped a girl or got r@ped myself i am not able to judge it's bad?

Makes sense ...

pls close this.

Edited by Kazuhiko_Nagano, 12 November 2012 - 02:31 PM.


#27 Coren

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 03:11 PM

Yes please claw this, it's just a way for this guy to facepalm himself even more.

If you cant take feedback then stay away from forums.

#28 VanderBeltLegacy

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 03:14 PM

View PostKazuhiko_Nagano, on 12 November 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

Like EVERY suggestion ?   Sry :/




I find it hilarious how that is an argument.
So if i never r@ped a girl or got r@ped myself i am not able to judge it's bad?

Makes sense ...

pls close this.

every1 should know the effects/damaged of r@p3 by the age of 14, worst metaphor possible to use.

Edited by VanderBeltLegacy, 12 November 2012 - 03:15 PM.


#29 Kazuhiko_Nagano

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 03:23 PM

Quote

every1 should know the effects/damaged of r@p3 by the age of 14, worst metaphor possible to use.

So should everyone know who plays this game (even non engineers) that it wouldn't change ANYTHING to the negative if anet implemented my suggested option.

So the metaphor was ok, because you know r@pe is bad because ... well other people tell you... oh before that other people tell you whats bad and whats not aswell...

Quote

If you cant take feedback then stay away from forums.

If the feedback is serious yes but his post was "bla bla would be OP" which it wouldn't be it would just be another option ...

Edited by Kazuhiko_Nagano, 12 November 2012 - 03:25 PM.


#30 Hep

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 03:25 PM

In a word, no. In a perfect world, all abilities would compete for your ability slots equally. ie, it should be a tough choice whether or not to equip ability A or ability B. While that perfect-world scenario isn't attainable, it should be striven for. This works against that. You're creating an inherent imbalance between kit and non-kit abilities.

For example, let's say Elixir B is balanced with the Flamethrower. I'm not going to go into whether that's true or not, because it doesn't matter. That is the goal, and the possibility of re-balancing the abilities should be up in the air until that's attained. If we allow weaponswap in non-kit abilities, then that would no longer be the goal. Elixir B, if it was balanced with the Flamethrower, would then be potentially more powerful than the Flamethrower. But that would only be if you don't equip any kits. You couldn't re-balance it, since that would mean it would be underpowered if you do equip a kit.

Then there's the whole issue of being able to equip sigils and having stats with the weapon that you cannot receive with a kit. This change would cause balance problems, not lessen them.





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