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Dagger/Dagger - In Groups and Later On: Does it Get Less Squishy?


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#1 Graham_Specter

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 06:48 PM

Hey guys,

So, I've been playing a - lot - of Dagger/Dagger Ele, in groups and solo, and I'm enjoying it quite a bit. It just feels so much more... alive than the Staff. I've got an endgame build planned out, with a lot of help from people on here, that focuses on huge quantities of Fury, Swiftness and Protection Auras. 20 Fire, 10 Air, 30 Earth and 10 Arcane, with a full signet lineup in utilities.

However, I had a few questions - Admittedly I'm still in fairly crappy armor, and I'm shooting for Soldier trousers and chest by the end, but I still seem to take hits like a chump, even in my race's starting area (Hyenas in Ashford hit like trucks if I'm not careful).

I just wanted to know if this was really only because of my crappy armor - or if we're always behind the curve a bit when it comes to defensive stats. That'll be crucial in determing whether or not D/D is something I want to take into endgame - right now I do, but not if the rest of the game is going to progress with me as a glass cannon no matter what I do.

#2 Aetou

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 12:54 PM

D/D is a lot of fun but yes, as you're finding, it can be pretty brutal early on.  In fact, I'd be inclined to say that the build only really becomes strong at 60+ because for it to work you need both Written in Stone and Fire's Embrace (so you get the great healing and protection - at 50 you'll notice an improvement from at least getting protection a lot, but the next WiS is the cornerstone of the build.)  At 80, once you start stacking Boon Duration too, you'll really start to feel less squishy but prior to that... yeah.  I ran S/D for most of the early levels, the blinds you get there plus the ability to kite will make a real difference in the short term

#3 Graham_Specter

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 01:37 PM

View PostAetou, on 12 November 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

D/D is a lot of fun but yes, as you're finding, it can be pretty brutal early on.  In fact, I'd be inclined to say that the build only really becomes strong at 60+ because for it to work you need both Written in Stone and Fire's Embrace (so you get the great healing and protection - at 50 you'll notice an improvement from at least getting protection a lot, but the next WiS is the cornerstone of the build.)  At 80, once you start stacking Boon Duration too, you'll really start to feel less squishy but prior to that... yeah.  I ran S/D for most of the early levels, the blinds you get there plus the ability to kite will make a real difference in the short term

Alright, thanks for the input! It's a bit sad, because I do love the set - but I'll put my love aside to focus on expediency for now. Just let it be known that my first two investments after I get that second trait book will be 30 Earth and 20 Fire. Then, of course, AC armor at 80 (With CoF armor in other slots.

Thanks again - you've given me the encouragement to not give up with this build. Which is good, because I've found it to be a ton of fun - much moreso than running around with a Staff.

#4 The Great Al

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 03:08 PM

I don't like using D/D in big groups, especially when there is a boss around. It's much easier to use a ranged weapon, preferably the staff.

#5 Raif89

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 03:30 PM

im also a D/D user but i run 20 air/20 water/30 arcana and yea i couldnt use D/D until around level 65ish as i was just way to squishy, I had to use S/D till then. Once i hit 65ish and had the heals and better gear with more stats (3 stat gear) it was much better, but it still is a bit wonky till you get to 80 and start getting the rares/exotics. even then, your still "squishy" but your heals/utilities will more than make up for it. but remember, even at 80, you still must have epic kiting skills. for D/D.

#6 Graham_Specter

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 05:43 PM

View PostThe Great Al, on 12 November 2012 - 03:08 PM, said:

I don't like using D/D in big groups, especially when there is a boss around. It's much easier to use a ranged weapon, preferably the staff.

Right - that does present a problem. I've been kicking around a Glyph focused Staff idea as well - for something a tad more supportive.

#7 Hyper Hypno Hustler

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 07:04 PM

Eles are behind in defensive stats, but that's why they have some of the best defensive skills and traits in the game. I feel like armor is just worth more than health in most situations, so you might want to focus on that.  Since you'll have 30 points in earth and have lots of protection you can get away with less armor increasing gear though.  Aetou makes a good point about boon duration.  In fact, you might want to have two superior runes of water and monk to get +30% on all boons.  Then you could get +20 on a specific one.

It probably is just your gear being crappy.  I was leveling up jeweler and tailor with my ele.  I was replacing my gear every five levels, and I don't recall having any major or frequent issues using dual daggers for pretty much everything.  I was crafting rare armor at later levels as well, so that helped a lot.  At level 80, you'll likely live longer than most guardians and warriors.

#8 Graham_Specter

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 10:28 PM

View PostHyper Hypno Hustler, on 12 November 2012 - 07:04 PM, said:

Eles are behind in defensive stats, but that's why they have some of the best defensive skills and traits in the game. I feel like armor is just worth more than health in most situations, so you might want to focus on that.  Since you'll have 30 points in earth and have lots of protection you can get away with less armor increasing gear though.  Aetou makes a good point about boon duration.  In fact, you might want to have two superior runes of water and monk to get +30% on all boons.  Then you could get +20 on a specific one.

It probably is just your gear being crappy.  I was leveling up jeweler and tailor with my ele.  I was replacing my gear every five levels, and I don't recall having any major or frequent issues using dual daggers for pretty much everything.  I was crafting rare armor at later levels as well, so that helped a lot.  At level 80, you'll likely live longer than most guardians and warriors.

Right - My Helm, Chest, Trousers and Earrings are all going to have a little toughness on them - the rest will be a mix of power, vit and crit damage.

Honestly - once I get out of this particular slump I'm in (I'm in the teens right now, so no masterworks for me) I think things will improve. I can start to map out my finalized build with single and double stat items and work on it from there.

While it lacks a lot of Staff's AoE (Targeted at least) I do love the reactive playstyle of this weapon set. And I hope, with the right combination of "Oh pants" buttons, that I can make it something I'm proud of.

#9 infisio

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 01:46 PM

View PostGraham_Specter, on 11 November 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

Hey guys,

So, I've been playing a - lot - of Dagger/Dagger Ele, in groups and solo, and I'm enjoying it quite a bit. It just feels so much more... alive than the Staff. I've got an endgame build planned out, with a lot of help from people on here, that focuses on huge quantities of Fury, Swiftness and Protection Auras. 20 Fire, 10 Air, 30 Earth and 10 Arcane, with a full signet lineup in utilities.

Would you link to some of your favorite build threads?  I'm leveling a D/D.  I have one build I've been using as a guide, but I'd like to see others that people like.

#10 Rocky Balmoa

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 02:06 PM

View Postinfisio, on 06 March 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

Would you link to some of your favorite build threads?  I'm leveling a D/D.  I have one build I've been using as a guide, but I'd like to see others that people like.
https://forum-en.gui.../10#post1518193

#11 ArtimiseFlare

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 02:36 PM

Okay this is some input from someone who's been rolling D/D from 20 onward, but don't take my word as the gospel.

As you have experienced dagger x2 is a very "active" style of game play and typically requires a bit more finesse to play, unlike other classes the Dagger x2 builds do not really get into their element until you are around level 60+ at that point they really begin to shine. End game is when things really fall together, early game can be a little tough, to need to make up for the lack of boon duration and gear by being very conscious of your surroundings.

For me, I went for a support boon duration and debuff removal build as well as auramancing, my trait spread being 0/10/0/30/30

Fire: 0
Air: 10 (Zephyr trait)
Earth: 0
Water: 30 (Clensing water, Soothing disruption and Clensing wave)
Arcana: 30 (Elemental attunement, Evasive arcana and renewing stamina)

As for gear I wear full Knights armor focusing on Precision power and toughness same with my daggers utilizing Knight stats. Runes for my armor are as follows

Major Rune of Water x2
Superior Rune of Water x2
Superior Rune of the Monk x2

Superior Sigil of Battle and Bloodlust further assist in boosting my damage output. End game armor combine with ample amounts of evasive maneuvers as well as all the toughness makes you extremely durable, not as durable as say a warrior, but you can survive most hits that would down any other elementalist.

Utility's skills and elite skill

Lighting flash
Armor of Earth
Mist Form

Glyph of Elements (proper name escapes me, it summons am elemental based on your attunement)

The best part about the above build is that it makes for a very good staff build as well if the fight requires you to switch to range. It allows you to remain supportive with only a few tweaks to your traits and your utility skills.

TL;DR yes it gets much better as you level, end game content is a blast and very rewarding, I love the fact how this build throws the stereotype of a "clothie" class out the window and allows for mobility rivaling a thief yet still having the versatility and utity of a Mage type class.

Welcome to the addiction my friend, GL, I hope this helped :)

#12 merring

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 02:57 PM

I didn't have a problem levelling with D/D early on. You will probably die sometimes but I wouldn't do what others here have suggested and use a different weapon set until you get to level 60. I think you should treat your early levels as something of a tutorial. Play as you mean to go on and you will have a lot less trouble later on. At least, that is how it worked out for me.

As a D/D elementalist you really should be dodging a lot. And switching attunements a lot. It's pretty much critical for survival early on. You get some more margin for error later in game as you get more survivability, but if you master it in the early levels then you will have a much easier time of it in dungeons and so on later in the game.

One thing that really did help me was changing the keybinds for attunement switching. I cannot recommend this enough.I also can't tell you how key it is to do it early on and stick to what you pick. You will have trouble at the start, hitting the wrong keys and so on, but give in three days and you will always hit the right key at the right time. So long as you switch attunements a lot. You will probably find killing trash mobs doesn't require attunement switches in early game, do it anyway. It's good practice.

#13 Fenice_86

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 09:39 AM

View Postmerring, on 06 March 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

- snip -

Which keys did u assigned?

Cause atm i have 1-5 = weapon's skills
Q = Healing
E-R-F = Utilities (sorted by recharge time, E = fastest, F = slowest)
0/Mouse Click = Elite

And i really cant find a nice 4 button's string for the attunements! :(

#14 merring

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 10:48 AM

These are my keybinds:

Attunement switching: I have an extra two buttons on my mouse (call them M4 and M5 for our purposes)
So I have them setup to be:

M4 - Fire Attunement
M5 - Water Attunement
Shift + M4 - Air Attunement
Shift + M5 - Earth Attunement

1-5 weapon skills
q - healing
shift + 1-5 utilities
e - dodge

If you don't have an extra two buttons on your mouse, I have some guild mates who use shift + 1-4 for attunement switching and have different keybinds for utilities than I have instead.

Edited by merring, 11 March 2013 - 10:55 AM.


#15 Geeri

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 11:22 AM

I use something similar:
  • 1 through 5 for normal skills;
  • shift + 1 through 5 for utilities (shift + 1 for healing, shift + 5 for elite, etc.)
  • alt + 1 through 4 for attunement swapping
This works very well for me. The other keybindings are fine from this position (i.e. f for "interact"). I use double tap for dodging as I am too used to it from my UT days.

As for the OP: I have no issues with survivability at all; I might go as far as state that I often sport the best survivability in my group! I am unsure whether that is because of my gear or my dodging, though. I generally run with two defensive utility skills (Lightning Flash and Mistform) to aid with survivability and otherwise use many of the tools we have to dodge and avoid stuff (RTL, Updraft, Fire 3, Earth 3, Earth 4 interrupt).

I also use Ether Renewal and simply take my time to heal when it's needed; it is much more important to take 3 seconds and survive and use some mobility cooldown (RTL, Earth 3, Fire 3) to get back into the fight than it is to get downed and require aid).

My gear is P/V/T with berserker jewellery and weapons. I have maxed out my boon duration using runes (including protection from the T1 earth trait), which also helps.

With all this, survivability becomes a matter of skill in most situations. This makes it interesting (but I can imagine it can be frustrating if you're coming from a Guardian that can basically stand still and take it without breaking a sweat).




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