1975 replies to this topic

[Hyper Hypno Hustler]

I don't like the idea of ascended items either, but some of you need to stop quoting Anet as your argument.  Anet telling a lie or changing their minds doesn't instantly make the items a bad idea.  The new gear is a bad idea because making a hard dungeon only to give players more powerful gear defeats the purpose.  Increasing monster damage by 300 and giving players armor that decreases damage by 200 is asinine; just increase damage by 100 and be done with it.  Using ascended gear to please people who need more progression is dumb because they'll just get the gear and stop playing again.  They're briefly amusing group A at the expense of annoying or enraging group B.  There is no indication that Anet has a logical reason to think group A vastly outnumbers group B.

This gear is going to eventually affect balance in pve and wvw.  Roughly 3 additional critical damage from each piece of ascended gear is going to be significant.  Some builds already put out some extremely high burst.  I don't think those builds need 25 more critical damage, and I'm not confident in Anet's ability to balance ever increasing stat growth.  Not all stats have been created equal, and it will only get worse and more obvious as better gear gets added.

Lordkrall, on 13 November 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

But is that the ACTUAL stat difference or the gear stat difference?

Didn't people whine about exotics being 13(?) % better than Rare, and yet when all was said and done the actual difference to the character was only 4%

I've lost count of all the times 4% prevented defeat.  200 hp is all my ele needs to last that extra half second to activate water attunement, heal, remove conditions, hit mist form, dodge that last fatal blow, ride the lightning away or whatever.  The same thing applies to ascended gear.

[Kymeric]

Jairyn, on 13 November 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

I don't see this really pleasing anyone and the timbre of conversation both here and on the officially forums suggests most of those players have already left, anyway. Risking the remainder in a mad pitch to win them back seems like a deeply flawed strategy, to me.

Yes.  In the end, trying to keep people playing who play the game like a full time job is a losing proposition.  There's just no way to keep up with that kind of hunger.

Even WoW is slowly shrinking.

[CalmLittleBuddy]

Arngrim Einheri, on 13 November 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

lol no. He would hit you a bit harder, absorb a bit more damage, have a bit more health etc etc ... He would be more powerful than you, with the same skill level and build = better.

No one has 'the same skill level'. One is always better. Same build implies same class. I hardly ever go one on one with the same class. Plus there's environment, tactics, world bonuses, allies, NPC... so much going on that the LEAST factor is a few upticks from a piece of gear.

Again, I drag level 10s into WvW with common grey gear and get more kills than deaths. Do you honestly think it will change that? I win by being clever and good, regardless of gear. If I EVER get beat by gear, that's my own damn fault, not the gear.

I will shred ANY pixel armor, and out juke ANY weapon. Not 100% of the time, but often enough to make anything but the most outrageously imbalanced gear moot. It's just not an issue.

If anything, I like a challenge and welcome players with even better gear. The. Gear. Doesn't. Matter.

I'm aware that in principle this new stuff could be a move towards providing superior advantage via a gear grind. In principle. But the mechanics behind the game and my own game experience has shown that level 10 gear can hang with level 80 exotics when played properly. Tiny uptick doesn't worry me at all.

[Corvindi]

Kymeric, on 13 November 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

Yes.  I work in the arts, and appreciate the business people who keep the thing running so I can go on being creative.  The tension between selling tickets and taking creative risks is difficult in the best of times.

I remember a lot of "NCSoft is just publishing and funding the game, they're giving ANet a lot of leeway to create the game they want" on the forums in the year leading up to launch.  It feels like, indeed, ANet was given a lot of leeway during the development phase, and then someone tightened the leash a little while before launch, so to speak.

Probably a smart move on the part of the business side.  Let the dreamers get everyone stirred up... don't let financial realities muddy the waters until the game is actually out and bringing a return.  Then worry about maximizing the profit.

It will be interesting to see how gamers will react to this tactic when it comes to what we will spend our money on.  I still think that as a group we are savvier than we used to be and also a little burned out on the standard fare.  I'm not sure MMOs are going to be profitable much longer and I really don't think a gear treadmill will increase profits for GW2 longterm, though it might initially.  After all, the profit comes from the cash shop.  If there are ways to buy shortcuts on this treadmill, how many times will players actually do that?

The only other way I can see them making more money with a treadmill is to have frequent, cheaply made but profitable instance expansions that include new gear that is necessary to compete in WvW and makes PVE faster and easier.  Then the question becomes, how many players will buy those expansions even if they are merely grindy dungeon runs and how many will outright quit in disgust because they can't compete without doing what they don't want to do in the first place?

Edited by Corvindi, 13 November 2012 - 03:22 PM.

[Sieghildr]

Jairyn, on 13 November 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

I don't see this really pleasing anyone and the timbre of conversation both here and on the officially forums suggests most of those players have already left, anyway. Risking the remainder in a mad pitch to win them back seems like a deeply flawed strategy, to me.

One positive outlook is the wording they used. "A tier in between exotics and legendaries." That suggests that, possibly, this tier was meant to bridge the difficulty gap between those two, which would suggest this is the only and last tier to be added. Of course, if Anet came out and stated this it would help, but only insofar as we can trust them to keep their word.

[Asudementio]

Lucas Ashrock, on 13 November 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

Epic , not impossible, looking the jp next to coe dungeon. At least artistically talking. Players interested to farm it? Maybe not so many. So if you see a massleaving, choose if follow the wave, or be one of the last still farming like a stupid fighting with other pandas losers calling you noob kicking you out until you get lucky farming with a pug. If you find one.

The aggression towards WoW players (and frankly those who migrate from other games) in this community is sickening. We should welcome players from all games as well as the positive influences they bring. I believe these changes are an attempt on Anet's part to introduce familiar elements reminiscent of the experiences people have in other games as a means to sure up their playerbase and eventually broaden it.

[Kymeric]

Wordsworth, on 13 November 2012 - 03:18 PM, said:

I was being facetious. We're boned.

Ah, thanks.

Difficult to tell, since there seem to be plenty of people who don't understand.

[Lordkrall]

Sieghildr, on 13 November 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

One positive outlook is the wording they used. "A tier in between exotics and legendaries." That suggests that, possibly, this tier was meant to bridge the difficulty gap between those two, which would suggest this is the only and last tier to be added. Of course, if Anet came out and stated this it would help, but only insofar as we can trust them to keep their word.

Problem is they can never state that. Because if they do and later on see a "need" to add another tier, people will behave just like they do now. Shouting about how ArenaNet sucks and keep lying to the players.

[Corvindi]

Sieghildr, on 13 November 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

Notice how this is worded such that Anet can never be accused of breaking promises. They can simply say that Ascended gear is not mandatory, which would be true but show a sudden willful ignorance of the mindset of "hardcore" gamers, namely that if something is better then it IS mandatory.

The impact of this Ascended tier can be lessened by being able to use your Exotics as a base. It's still against their Manifesto and will lead to a gear treadmill, but at least all the work you've put in so far will still be rewarded.

Reminds me of how they spun gems for gold as not pay to win.  I know they have an economist on staff, I think they might have a lawyer, too.

[Asudementio]

Akula, on 13 November 2012 - 03:18 PM, said:

So, there you have it. Your beloved ArenaNet caved in and listened to all those who wanted a gear treadmill. On top of that you now have a gear gating system too! Soon there will be lots and lots of new content requiring you to have newer and better Ascended gear. This addition clearly shows that ArenaNet doesn't care about their current playerbase (the ones who do not need another carrot on a stick) and which audience they are catering to. Now, enjoy your new gear treadmill MMO with gear gating for all future content!

This is just the beginning. If you think this is bad, you're in for a shock in the next few months. Just wait for the Seraphim gear, Tier 12.

Too bad that I cannot find a way to delete this account. If anyone knows how to, let me know. It's appreciated.

You think they don't care about all of their players? Perhaps they are trying to add diverse objectives at endgame instead of beginning this gear trademill (read slippery slope for all intensive purposes of this discussion) that everyone is claiming.

[chullster]

Sieghildr, on 13 November 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

One positive outlook is the wording they used. "A tier in between exotics and legendaries." That suggests that, possibly, this tier was meant to bridge the difficulty gap between those two, which would suggest this is the only and last tier to be added. Of course, if Anet came out and stated this it would help, but only insofar as we can trust them to keep their word.

What gap? they have (had) the same stats.

[Burch84]

Lady Rhonwyn, on 13 November 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

Don't you love the stupidity of people?  Most groups will ask that lvl80, but he has never been there.  That lvl75 is working on his third character and has already a full CoE armour on his main....

Levels don't say anything about ability.  Armour doesn't say anything about ability.

I say kick the lvl 75 and let him return when he grows a pair.  No need for a group to settle for a lvl 75, having 2 lvl 80 means nothing grats on the full CoE armour - who cares, I would not like to carry a lowbie in a lvl 80 zone - lvl 75 armour and weapon is weak, if you are so good start your own group.

[Eon Lilu]

Here we go again....Anet locking and deleting all negative feedback and topics to do with it and only leaving open the positive one's that praise the almighty Anet on official forums.

After this crap being announced showing they have bull****** everyone about there game from day one and the likelyhood they will keep putting "special event items" in RNG chests in gem store every single holiday or time there is a patch like every month....

My faith in arena net has completely been demolished, there ruining there own reputation for profit by catering to the majority of ex old mmo's players whining for WOW type features. Everything they said in there manifesto and in devolepment was complete lies and bull****.

I guess PC MMO's are really dying as a platform and genre, GW2 and Anet was the last hope. RIP.

Edited by Leyana, 14 November 2012 - 01:05 AM.
Nope

[Sieghildr]

Lordkrall, on 13 November 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

Problem is they can never state that. Because if they do and later on see a "need" to add another tier, people will behave just like they do now. Shouting about how ArenaNet sucks and keep lying to the players.

Lied to is the wrong word, since I have no doubt when that Manifesto came out that it was what the dev team truly wanted to do. Whatever has changed since then, it remains that anyone who believed in that Manifesto has now been misled, and therefore they have a good reason to post angrily on message boards. I don't think Anet sucks, but I am disappointed.

chullster, on 13 November 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

What gap? they have (had) the same stats.

As I said, the difficulty gap, meaning the difficulty of obtaining them.

[PheBelladona]

who cares about stat increases, OUR LORDS THE MURSAAT HAVE RETURNED!!!

[Kymeric]

chullster, on 13 November 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

What gap? they have (had) the same stats.

Yes, I think it's a misreading to see that comment as referring to power level.  That's what it looks like on first reading, because we're thinking about gear tiers, but on second reading I think it means the gap in time.

It's not about a gap in power level, it's about getting rares as soon as you hit 80, exotics shortly after that, and then having to spend 6 months to a year trying for legendaries (the stated intended time frame by ANet).  This gear is to fill the time gap, giving something to go for in the first three months after you hit 80, so there isn't a long stretch of no reward until you get your legendaries.

Which is why I don't think it will be as easy as "run a single dungeon" to get your Ascended gear.  It will, undoubtedly, take some time.

[Lordkrall]

Eon Lilu, on 13 November 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

Here we go again....Anet locking and deleting all negative feedback and topics to do with it and only leaving open the positive one's that praise the almighty Anet.

After this crap being announced showing they have bull****** everyone about there game from day one and the likelyhood they will keep putting "special event items" in RNG chests in gem store every single holiday or time there is a patch like every month....

My faith in arena net has completely been demolished, there ruining there own reputation for profit by catering to the majority of ex old mmo's players whining for WOW type features. Everything they said in there manifesto and in devolepment was complete lies and bull****.

I guess PC MMO's are really dying as a platform and genre, GW2 and Anet was the last hope. RIP.

Haven't you been saying exactly that since about a week before release? And yet you are still here.

As for their handling of the forums: They lock ALL threads that discusses the issue, except the big one. Which is quite logical.
Why have 5000000 threads discuss the same thing when you already have a thread for it?

The same would be done on this or most other forums.

[Heart Collector]

Eon Lilu, on 13 November 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

I guess PC MMO's are really dying as a platform and genre, GW2 and Anet was the last hope. RIP.

*Yoda voice* No... There is... Another.

Star Citizen

I think we should wait and see how this turns out though. I have the feeling it won't be half as bad as people are making it out to be. Don't get me wrong I am concerned but hopefully the changes will turn out well and not start a treadmill.

[Red_Falcon]

I for one believe that if this makes you quit GW2, you didn't really like GW2 to begin with.
The stat difference is comparable to using an Orrian Truffle Steak, it's not the end of the world from a WvW perspective.

Still, it's true that Anet is turning back to their claims, and I too feel betrayed.
Not only because they turned back to the manifesto, but because they pull this out of nowhere like it's nothing.
Why not explain what made you change your mind?
Customer trust is important, if a customer knows you can turn back all of the sudden without giving explanations they're not going to trust you anymore.

They should have opened a discussion about this, and slowly let us in these details instead of jumping out of nowhere with a U turn on the ideals they talked for months.

[Kymeric]

Asudementio, on 13 November 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

Games and the philosophies that found them change, they adapt, they evolve.

One would expect adaptation, evolution, to take a little longer than three months.

If they hadn't said some things so passionately, it'd be more expected.  I had no adverse reaction to Rift going the way it did, because I never felt like Trion had a clear, unique vision.  They were making a WoW clone with some spontaneous public quests layered on top, and while I didn't like ridiculously unbalanced PvP gear or the constant addition of more dungeons, it seemed like a logical growth of a game that wasn't trying to do anything else.

The "things change" argument is a little to0 easy.  If developers' statements about what they want to achieve are so meaningless, why bother listening to or reading them at all?

Edited by Kymeric, 13 November 2012 - 03:38 PM.

[Asudementio]

Kymeric, on 13 November 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

One would expect adaptation, evolution, to take a little longer than three months.

If they hadn't said some things so passionately, it'd be more expected.  I had no adverse reaction to Rift going the way it did, because I never felt like Trion had a clear, unique vision.  They were making a WoW clone with some spontaneous public quests layered on top, and while I didn't like ridiculously unbalanced PvP gear or the constant addition of more dungeons, it seemed like a logical growth of a game that wasn't trying to do anything else.

The "things change" argument is a little to0 easy.  If developers' statements about what they want to achieve are so meaningless, why bother listening to or reading them at all?

I agree why listen to their puffed up goals, let their work speak for itself.

[karekiz]

Eon Lilu, on 13 November 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

Here we go again....Anet locking and deleting all negative feedback and topics to do with it and only leaving open the positive one's that praise the almighty Anet on official forums.

https://forum-en.gui...threads/page/84

The majority are negative.  There is too many people against it for ANet to mass ban/remove.

Yes, I have been suspended (for adding that Arah being bugged in every post I suppose), but no they aren't on a witch hunt.  Yes, they will ignore the community, they have been doing that since launch.

Asudementio, on 13 November 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

Games and the philosophies that found them change, they adapt, they evolve.

Tell SoE SWG team that.

[ogrejd]

chullster, on 13 November 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

What gap? they have (had) the same stats.

Not a stat gap, the *acquisition* gap. (ie, it's relatively easy to get a set of exotics (as long as you're not silly and expect to get stats useful for even vaguely popular builds, of course), but extremely hard on the wallet combined with a bad grind to get Legendaries)

[Ardeni]

I support the Ascended gear tier if they are compareable to legendaries. Legendary armour should exist in game, at least in my opinion, for those who want to focus on one char and intend  to play the game for a long time. If it's just another gear tier in between exotics and legendaries, I would be against it. Either way, I will continue playing the game. Getting full exotic gear is easy enough, so an extra tier wouldn't matter to me that much.

[Reisa]

Red_Falcon, on 13 November 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

I for one believe that if this makes you quit GW2, you didn't really like GW2 to begin with.
The stat difference is comparable to using an Orrian Truffle Steak, it's not the end of the world from a WvW perspective.

Or maybe they just see the writing on the wall and don't want to waste their time with GW2 when Anet will keep adding tiers in the future?

You think they won't?  They created a mechanic that you have absolutely no defense against EXCEPT their new gear.

And we know they have at least three or four expansions planned, you don't think they'll add new tiers there to keep players interested?

[Eon Lilu]

So how long until they bring out legendary armor? Or Legendary Ascended Armor after that? Maybe raise lvl cap to lvl 237....

[Wieland1]

Quote

players were ready to start on that path much sooner than we expected and were becoming frustrated with a lack of personal progression.(...) we don’t want to overlook the basic need for players to feel like they are progressing and growing even after hitting max level.

If apparently player feedback prompted ANet to make this change, I'll just say that I regret having been silent about my support of the game (past) stance on gear progression (or lack thereof). It may be too late, but just count me for whatever is worth as unhappy with the idea of introducing gear progression in GW2. I realize that happy players are often silent, and that unhappy players are more likely to be voicing their opinion. It is human nature and perfectly understandable. I didn't really want to play the part of the "fanboy", opposing people with valid (for them) opinions and complaints.  I am just sad I have not been more vocal about my support of what made GW1 (and GW2 thus far) unique.

Please Arena Net, don't.

[Raytla]

The people who are over reacting seriously need to get your act together and calm down.  Were you people not complaining about nothing to do and whining about lack of progression?  

I can understand your worry; however, you do not have enough information on Ascended Gears.   Now if the new ascended gears were hard to acquire and a massive difference compared to exotic stats then you have a reason to complain but we don't know that yet do we? In this case they should have just made exotics inf usable instead of bringing out a new tier.   Or re-work the skill & trait system.

They took a risk let us just wait and see what happens.

Edited by Catiine, 13 November 2012 - 04:04 PM.

[Roybe]

I'm coming to this discussion a little late, but it appears that Anet is keeping its promise of no required gear treadmill.  They have created a top level/perfect gear standard (Legendaries)  and are filling in with skins and additional bonuses that are either dungeon specific or less 'powerful' (or at worst no more powerful) than Legendaries.  I am concerned about power creep and gear treadmills, but this does not seem to be an issue currently.

[Jairyn]

Wieland1, on 13 November 2012 - 03:59 PM, said:

If apparently player feedback prompted ANet to make this change, I'll just say that I regret having been silent about my support of the game (past) stance on gear progression (or lack thereof). It may be too late, but just count me for whatever is worth as unhappy with the idea of introducing gear progression in GW2. I realize that happy players are often silent, and that unhappy players are more likely to be voicing their opinion. It is human nature and perfectly understandable. I didn't really want to play the part of the "fanboy", opposing people with valid (for them) opinions and complaints.  I am just sad I have not been more vocal about my support of what made GW1 (and GW2 thus far) unique.

Confirmation bias is tricky to avoid, but it still seemed to me that even as thread after thread about stat progression appeared on the forums, more posters were arguing against than in favor. I don't understand where this change is coming from. That many people bought GW2 under the misapprehension it was WoW2? Really?