1975 replies to this topic

[JONO51]

Specialz, on 13 November 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

The mere fact they added something like this,which isn't out of the ordinary if you played guild wars 1: titles with stats bonuses; PvE only skills, just goes to show that maybe the game was bleeding and they thought they could fix it by that method.

Titles with stats & skills were one of the worst additions they made. Even ANet seemed to agree in the end as they increased point gain and reduced the rank for max benefit several times since they were introduced.

Edited by JONO51, 13 November 2012 - 05:36 PM.

[Midnight_Tea]

Wow, over 40 pages already? What a storm! I didn't know it'd get this crazy when I added my post back on page 2.

Here's my thoughts, having had a bit of time to gather them:


1. The problem with having unattainable but extremely potent gear is that you get gear elitism. There are currently groups who won't even take players of the right level through story mode of a dungeon unless all players are 80's in exotics. If Ascended gear becomes the new maximum, that essentially is -- for some players -- an extra hurdle to get dungeon groups. I know you can say "don't play with elitists, the balance is tuned so people in greens can do really well". I understand that, it's absolutely the case, but I'm a mesmer. I know all too well that perception is its own thing, and players with anything but a perceived 100% output are discriminated against. Thankfully this is not nearly a problem in GW2 as compared to standard MMOs, but people are rightly concerned about the game keeping that quality going forward.

2. People are worried that ArenaNet is going against their manifesto or their stated design goal of not having a gear treadmill. While far from the sky falling, this caused a lot of upset because there is already a lot of tension about the future of GW2. Tension I don't think is warranted, if I may give my own opinion, but it's why people are flipping out. If I can offer a glass half-full perspective -- I think it's actually pretty awesome that the community cares this deeply about design philosophy. I've been a gamer for thirty years and I can tell you that this is a relatively new thing. You guys should be proud you do care about this sort of thing compared to game communities from the 90's and 00's.

Oh, and threatening to "leave" GW2 is just silly. You're not married, and if you do have borderline romantic feelings for the game you might be overdue for a break anyway. More to the point it's still not a subscription based game -- and your bad word of mouth isn't worth much to other people if you're the type of person who makes kneejerk decisions in the first place. I'm sorry, I can't be nice about it. Friends of mine who regularly pitch fits, well, I've learned to be skeptical of their opinions compared to people who offer more lucid ones.

3. The fact remains though that Ascended equipment is being added precisely because ArenaNet are noticing that players are hitting progression walls. They called it a "Legendary wall". People just hit that wall and quit. I'd absolutely agree with them if they were to say that's a design problem that needs addressing. I suppose this is one way of doing it. If you want to constructively help address the issue "Ascended" items bring, I highly suggest some of you help come up with ways progression can continue without necessarily going for Legendaries. If anything, you should be reading this whole Ascended thing as a sign they do care about your opinions so please make responsible use of your voice.

As a sidenote I salute those of you compiling nifty Mystic Forge recipes because some of the novelty items from that certainly fueled my desire to keep playing.

Edited by Midnight_Tea, 13 November 2012 - 05:37 PM.

[Sieghildr]

Midnight_Tea, on 13 November 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

If you want to constructively help address the issue "Ascended" items bring, I highly suggest some of you help come up with ways progression can continue without necessarily going for Legendaries. If anything, you should be reading this whole Ascended thing as a sign they do care about your opinions so please make responsible use of your voice.

That's easy. Make Ascended items really cool cosmetically, but no better than Exotics statistically. Which is what the philosophy behind character progression was supposed to be about in this game.

[Lordkrall]

Linfang, on 13 November 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

Agony has you by the balls.

You cannot progress further unless you counter this new condition damage via infusions and placing them in Ascended Armor. So people will be segregated according to your armor because of this unavoidable mechanic, ushering in a new breeding ground of elitist. If you don't have infusions and you dont have the armor they go into you basically can only go to a certain point of the dungeon before your borked.

And yet that new condition will not even be a problem until you have actually gone quite deep into the dungeon and probably already have the needed gear. So what is the problem?

You can't jump into the highest level of the dungeon without doing the lower levels first.

Sieghildr, on 13 November 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

They said Ascended items are better than exotic items. The design principle behind this is what players are objecting to, not what % increase this Ascended armor will be over exotics.

Technically they have only said that they will have slightly better stats. That does not mean they are guaranteed to actually be better for a specific build though.
Seeing as you can't put gems or runes in them they are rather limited and a exotic set could technically be better for you.

[Sieghildr]

Lordkrall, on 13 November 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

Technically they have only said that they will have slightly better stats. That does not mean they are guaranteed to actually be better for a specific build though.
Seeing as you can't put gems or runes in them they are rather limited and a exotic set could technically be better for you.

True, if there's only one Ascended ring. I tend to think that they will have different rings with different stat allocations, though.

[Specialz]

JONO51, on 13 November 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

Titles with stats & skills were one of the worst additions they made. Even ANet seemed to agree in the end as they increased point gain and reduced the rank for max benefit several times since they were introduced.

I know, but it does not change the fact that it was added because people needed some progression. A lot of guild wars 1 players are claiming it is a deviation but the truth is, that has always been the case even in guild wars 1. Or maybe nostaglia was kicking in full effect.

ANYWAYS, right now only the ring and back piece have been added, how about we wait and see if the will go through with their plan given the "backlash" (if it is as big as people think it is), against ascended.

Edited by Specialz, 13 November 2012 - 05:48 PM.

[Jairyn]

Spooch, on 13 November 2012 - 05:16 PM, said:

i don't get why are so many players worried about these new gear. it will only give something new to work for and in the end it does'nt look it will bring any noticeable change to the ballance. If there is to judge by some given leeks about the items it will only give slight stat boost and in the end in a month every single player will be able to get those item, even the casual ones

1) Add "something new to work for" (not even getting into the whole work/game discussion.
2) players get it
3) players now need more vertical progression to work towards.

If a person is only motivated by acquisition, then only more acquisition can satisfy them. It's a fundamentally unsustainable concept.

The only thing that can result from adding +1 gear is the inevitable need for +2 gear. And so on and so forth. Treadmill. Stratifies players. Trivializes content. Unbalances WvW. Narrows focus.

This is a lose for everyone.

Edited by Jairyn, 13 November 2012 - 05:50 PM.

[Mireles]

The difference seems pretty negligible to me to be all up in a frenzy over... yeah its disappointing for those of us that bought exotics but it seems like these will be earned not bought.

Also thought they them adding a "scavenger hunt" way to obtain legendary precursors is a positive thing.... ill take that in trade to have to get another gear tier.

[RedStar]

Lordkrall, on 13 November 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

And yet that new condition will not even be a problem until you have actually gone quite deep into the dungeon and probably already have the needed gear. So what is the problem?

You can't jump into the highest level of the dungeon without doing the lower levels first.

Technically they have only said that they will have slightly better stats. That does not mean they are guaranteed to actually be better for a specific build though.
Seeing as you can't put gems or runes in them they are rather limited and a exotic set could technically be better for you.

Ascended pieces already have whichever stats given by gems/runes integrated in them.

How deep will that be before you have to fight agony ? Anet is good with words, you might be stuck after the first part for all we know. So then you have to grind that first part over and over again until you and your team mates have the required items to go further...

[Red_Falcon]

Guys, listen.

GW2 introduced gear progression, period.
They changed direction, and in future they will continue to add new tiers as they said.
They're not going to discuss this, it's a take or leave.

What can we do?
Well, back when my girlfriend dyed her hair, I didn't really like the new color.
But afterall, she still had those big freakin' boobs and that nice little round ass, so I got used to them and enjoyed the rest.

GW2 still has big boobs and a nice ass, regardless if it changes its mind on hair color.
You either continue to hump it and enjoy the good things while accepting the flaws, or find a new girlfriend to bang.

No amount of complaints will convince a dev or a girlfriend.
Both have their heads up their ass and think their decisions are good, regardless of how ridiculous we think they are.
But we're the owner of our 2handers (1hander for you commoners), and decide where to stick them. See for yourself if the trade is worth it.

Edited by Red_Falcon, 13 November 2012 - 06:00 PM.

[Racthoh]

My complaint stems from the same issue I had with the dungeon sets is the limitation of acquiring the gear. I never would've acquired the look I wanted for my character had all the pieces come from a single dungeon. I would've been too burnt out and too bored of the dungeon long before acquiring all the tokens necessary. In Guild Wars 1 I could just grind gold, anywhere. Then I just bought whatever armor I wanted with said gold. Alternatively if the dungeon tokens were universal for each merchant so we could mix and match sets, kinda like what other MMOs will do when it comes to running end game dungeons.

Now this new ascended gear comes from what? That one dungeon? Where will the next set of ascended gear come from, the armor pieces that is since all we're getting is jewelry from this new place. I feel sorry for anyone who is going to want to farm dungeons for their exotic gear when everyone will no doubt be occupied with getting these new goodies first. I feel sorry for jewelers too; why would I want their stuff when it'll cost me precious ectos and T6 materials?

I hate feeling funneled into content. In Guild Wars 1, everything remained cosmetic. I had no interest in doing something like Urgoz's Warren or The Deep because what they offered didn't appeal to me, outside of experiencing the content. Anything that could come from there I could grind gold however I want to acquire it. Now? Well I have to do this new dungeon to get ascended gear and whatever those mystic forge recipes are I can only assume they'll require something from the dungeon as well.

I just hope the dungeon is fun. Otherwise this is just going to be frustrating for a lot of people.

[Louis8k8]

As long as ascended gears never have gem slots as well as infusion slots, as long as the purposes of infusion are ONLY PvE, I'm fine.

Otherwise, this is the same as those generic asian grind mmorpgs with all sorts of cheap tactics to promote mindless farming, cash-shopping, making it the way to stay competitive in PvP and dungeons, then i'm out.

Voted wait-and-see, and I'll be staying with the game. It's the future direction after this that I fear. This patch itself is rather harmless.

Edited by Louis8k8, 13 November 2012 - 06:07 PM.

[Beta Sprite]

Something I just noticed on the Yakkington's Ring screenshot.  It says 'Unique' above 'Soulbound'.  Do we have any idea what that means?  I don't think I've seen it before.

[Louis8k8]

Beta Sprite, on 13 November 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

Something I just noticed on the Yakkington's Ring screenshot.  It says 'Unique' above 'Soulbound'.  Do we have any idea what that means?  I don't think I've seen it before.

A quest reward or special drop. Basically something that you can't mass dupicates of (like forging). At least that's what it means for most conventional RPGs.

Like the one-time reward you get on the splash-screen when you beat story-mode dungeon for the first time.

Edited by Louis8k8, 13 November 2012 - 06:13 PM.

[Vihar]

Beta Sprite, on 13 November 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

Something I just noticed on the Yakkington's Ring screenshot.  It says 'Unique' above 'Soulbound'.  Do we have any idea what that means?  I don't think I've seen it before.

  My guess is that would mean that you cannot equip two of them.

  So, once you have that particular ring, any more will be useless to you...barring salvage, Mystic Forge, etc, etc.

[Runkleford]

Lordkrall, on 13 November 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

And yet that new condition will not even be a problem until you have actually gone quite deep into the dungeon and probably already have the needed gear. So what is the problem?

You can't jump into the highest level of the dungeon without doing the lower levels first.



Technically they have only said that they will have slightly better stats. That does not mean they are guaranteed to actually be better for a specific build though.
Seeing as you can't put gems or runes in them they are rather limited and a exotic set could technically be better for you.

If Agony is there merely to keep players from skipping the lower levels of the dungeon into the harder levels shouldn't Agony be sufficient without having Ascended items come with inflated stats? And if the inflated stats are there to help cope with the more difficult enemies then what's the point of having them be more difficult in the first place? It's strange that MMOs would come up with such nonsense mechanics to keep people grinding. Horde mode in Gears of War got progressively harder but your character stats were always the same so I don't get this whole thing about needing to inflate stats.

Your second point, however, makes sense. Ascended items probably has their own drawbacks compared to our current exotics. We'll have to wait and see of course.

Edited by Runkleford, 13 November 2012 - 06:14 PM.

[Lordkrall]

Beta Sprite, on 13 November 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

Something I just noticed on the Yakkington's Ring screenshot.  It says 'Unique' above 'Soulbound'.  Do we have any idea what that means?  I don't think I've seen it before.

Probably means you can only have one of those equipped.

[AarodCutshot]

Louis8k8, on 13 November 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

As long as ascended gears never have gem slots as well as infusion slots, as long as the purposes of infusion are ONLY PvE, I'm fine.

Otherwise, this is the same as those generic asian grind mmorpgs with all sorts of cheap tactics to promote mindless farming, cash-shopping, making it the way to stay competitive in PvP and dungeons, then i'm out.

Voted wait-and-see, and I'll be staying with the game. It's the future direction after this that I fear. This patch itself is rather harmless.

Wouldnt you want the whole game to be good thou... I agree seems like this stuff right now is for just one dungeon but when other ones come out they are going to do this with all of them.  if they are new areas some sections will have them and so on.

[Zorian51]

Beta Sprite, on 13 November 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

Something I just noticed on the Yakkington's Ring screenshot.  It says 'Unique' above 'Soulbound'.  Do we have any idea what that means?  I don't think I've seen it before.

You can only have one of the type of specific item. Perhaps they are letting you have more stats over all but branching them out more. Say if you usually take Power/Precision/Toughness you can only get one ring with this. You'll have to get another ring that has Power/Precision/Crit Damage or something. The extra stats might balance it out in the end when everything is released.

In otherwords the main stats you're pumping wont change much but you'll have stronger stats in other areas you don't usually develop. If that makes sense. Just a guess.

Edited by Zorian51, 13 November 2012 - 06:18 PM.

[Xenigma]

While Ascended gear isn't about to make me quit GW2 regardless, I'd still like to see more details about what it is and how you get it before casting judgment on it.  Maybe they are actually adding a gear treadmill, maybe they're trying to add something between relatively easy Exotics and back-breaking Legendaries for people to earn, or who knows what else?  Until we get a blog post explaining what's going on, it's too early to be able to say whether I like it or dislike it because I still don't know what we're actually getting.

EDIT: Or I could just read the blog post that went up today that I missed. >_<

Edited by Xenigma, 13 November 2012 - 06:21 PM.

[AarodCutshot]

Vihar, on 13 November 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

  My guess is that would mean that you cannot equip two of them.

  So, once you have that particular ring, any more will be useless to you...barring salvage, Mystic Forge, etc, etc.

If you cant equip two thou wouldnt that defeat the purpose of transfusions and upgrade slots to get it not to effect you. I thought one was type and the other is soul bound. I'm like everyone else thou I dont know much about it but that is what I guessed lol.

[Waar Kijk Je Naar]

Voted no and no.

A gear treadmill, combined with the fact that apparently they have been lying for years, is enough to make me leave the game.

I'm still hoping Anet surprises us with something (like being able to upgrade exotics to ascended (GW1 infusions style)), but I fear for the worst, considering their words. A gear treadmill isn't why I bought this game.

[Sieghildr]

I still think you should be able to use your existing exotics as a base to upgrade. I just don't want to be NPCing stuff that cost me 2g to make.

[Arquenya]

RedStar, on 13 November 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

Older dungeons will become more easier thanks to those better tiers. So Anet will have to rework those dungeons, or let them become easy as hell (and Anet doesn't like things to be too easy it seems).
And what's more, why bother doing dungeons ? The skins ? You can get better items in those new dungeons (plural, because I'm imagining that Anet won't stop with only one dungeon).
I do a lot of dungeons, not for the skins but to use those tokens for my future alts. But why bother doing those older dungeons to only get exotics, when I can do a new dungeon that gives better gear ?

Yea they also have to take care that current dungeons won't become obsolete. 8 dungeons down the drain?!
Or wait .. so you may buy more fine transmutation stones?

[Rain King]

Ascended gear does not seem like it is optional if new content is going to feature the new condition agony.

So the armor crafting disciplines are totally useless now? They seemed to imply that ascended gear is only obtained through dungeons and the mystic forge.

Unless there is a way to upgrade existing exotic armor to ascended, this system does not seem to have been thought through very well.  I would go so far as to call it cash grab to get their players to buy more fine transmutation stones.

[Quietus]

Sieghildr, on 13 November 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

I still think you should be able to use your existing exotics as a base to upgrade. I just don't want to be NPCing stuff that cost me 2g to make.

Why would you vendor an exotic if you can get 1-3 ectos from salvaging it? Wouldn't that be more profitable?

[Mavrick]

Going to reserve judgement until I see how these are obtained and how that new mechanic works.

Is it going to be grind for stat based gear all over again instead of grinding for looks?

Guess we shall see.

I've gotten a lot for my $60 from this game, the gear grinding wont irritate me as much as I pace myself through and will get it eventually.

Though personally I don't like where this is headed...

[Sieghildr]

Quietus, on 13 November 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

Why would you vendor an exotic if you can get 1-3 ectos from salvaging it? Wouldn't that be more profitable?

I was only being half-serious; you are right of course. The point is exotics not being useful as gear anymore.

[Azure Skye]

We still dont know if the Ascended stuff is soulbound on aquire or on use.

[Featherman]

Mavrick, on 13 November 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

Going to reserve judgement until I see how these are obtained and how that new mechanic works.

Is it going to be grind for stat based gear all over again instead of grinding for looks?

Guess we shall see.

I've gotten a lot for my $60 from this game, the gear grinding wont irritate me as much as I pace myself through and will get it eventually.

Though personally I don't like where this is headed...

They timed this perfectly. By now, many who have purchased the game would've gotten their 60 bucks out of it and would be more amenable to the treadmill. It was their plan all along!