1975 replies to this topic

[Runkleford]

I can live with Ascendent items as long as ANET keeps their word that this is the last gear tier. What sucks though is that all my exotics will have to be replaced in order to do the future content that seems to include Agony. I don't know about everyone else but it wasn't easy to get all my exotics, especially before ANET implemented karma jugs with daily and monthly rewards. It was quite a chore karma farming in Orr. I also spent gold to buy pieces that had stat distributions that weren't available on the karma armor.

I'm not a hardcore player, I don't have gold and time to spare but I'd also like to participate in future content. After all this time I've only outfitted one character with full exotics. Can we please have the ability to upgrade to ascendent stats (ala infusion quests) instead of scrapping our old exotics or having to juggle another set of armor that takes up limited inventory space? It's not so much that I'm worried that Ascendent items will be too hard to obtain it's just that I'm worried my current exotics will be wasted. It's time and effort I wouldn't have put in had I known that they were not the highest tier but instead put into Ascendent items.

I feel that this is a completely reasonable request since there was a very reasonable expectation that exotics were the max tier and there would be no higher tiers. Now we've been told different.

Edited by Runkleford, 14 November 2012 - 06:26 PM.

[drkn]

Sounds like you changed your starter gear into hard-grinded exotics without anything in-between that got resold or salvaged to fund those exotics.

[Runkleford]

drkn, on 14 November 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

Sounds like you changed your starter gear into hard-grinded exotics without anything in-between that got resold or salvaged to fund those exotics.

Nice strawman. No, I wore whatever dropped for me (because armor and weapons NEVER drop right?) until I got exotics. And because chests that drop stuff don't exist. Hurr durr!

The point is that I didn't go out of my way to buy masterworks or rares during those 80 levels until level 80 exotics. If I did, I wouldn't be able to afford that last tier. Why is it so hard to understand?

Edited by Runkleford, 14 November 2012 - 07:02 PM.

[Feathermoore]

drkn, on 14 November 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

And now it serves something, right? Shows true concern about the game you love and don't want to see broken, hope to amass and force devs into doing/not doing something, etc?
Before it's a real problem, you're just a doomsayer.
When it is a real problem, then we can storm-whine ANet and demand to change it back or to make it not game-breaking. Too soon for that, guys.

The most efficient and effective way to deal with a problem is to stop it from happening all together. If you wait till AFTER a feature has been implemented, it is much harder to get devs to revoke that feature as they will upset people who liked the feature and will have wasted development dollars creating the feature.

Waiting until a feature is incoming/after it has been implemented is the worst time to declare your dislike of the feature. People are voicing concerns, and they are voicing them at the correct time. A similar situation occurred in EVE that resulted in massive upheaval in the playerbase purely out of concern for what the new feature would mean for potential development in the future. CCP got the message and development has refocused towards the features that players cared about.

People are worried that there is a potential for the "worst case" scenario to occur. You can call anyone who brings that worry up doomsayers all you want. That doesn't change the fact that they are actually getting their desire as a customer out there and potentially preventing that worst case (as was done in EVE).

[RedStar]

Feathermoore, on 14 November 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

The most efficient and effective way to deal with a problem is to stop it from happening all together. If you wait till AFTER a feature has been implemented, it is much harder to get devs to revoke that feature as they will upset people who liked the feature and will have wasted development dollars creating the feature.

They already developped the feature. It's not implemented in GW2 yet, but I'm sure it's nearly 100% complete.
It's not like Anet came out and said "hey we have this is what we are going to start working on in the upcoming months". It's more "we are showing you guys what he have been working on for the past few months and it's going to be implemented in a week".

You can dislike the idea of a feature, but until you have all the necesarry informations, you can't really objectively complain/praise that feature.

Most complaints are "This is turning into a WoW grear treadmill"...did those people even play WoW or at least read up about it ? Because if they did they would that a gear treadmill isn't only defined by "a better tier exists out there".
Then you have the "My exotics are useless now" and then someone tells them "but the mystic forge will allow you to upgrade them"...until we have informations on those recipe, don't mention then as a good or bad thing. They could either require a salvage kit, an apple and a black lion chest, or they could require 750 charged lodestones...

It's important to voice your opinion and say why you like/hate that feature and even mention why you didn't like such a feature in other games. But thinking that it will be like in other games and that the consequences will be the same doesn't make any sense...

[drkn]

@Runkle - so newcomers will skip the exotic tier and go after ascended gear from the dropped rares. And people who already have exotic gear are not required to get ascended and infused stuff until at high levels of Fractals - the stat gain is neglible and infusion will be necessary only deep in the new dungeon. Over time, we will get those ascended thingies as well - no problem if you don't feel that you MUST get them on day one.
I have three lv80 exotic toons. They will all need to get ascended gear one day, so i have triple the work you might happen to get, according to you. Yet i'm in no rush to get them and i'm sure it will all come over time, just as i wasn't in rush to get my exotic stuff (mainly jewelry) and just played the game i found most enjoyable - so it happened it is dungeon running with guildies...

[Feathermoore]

RedStar, on 14 November 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:

snip

You misunderstand. The ascended armor is not the core issue. The core issue is that Anet has set a precedent for adding a new gear tier after release, something that goes against a large number of their player's understanding of their goals for the game.

This is the time to let Anet know that doing so is unacceptable to you. Waiting around to see if they add yet another tier does no good. Getting the message to them that you don't want that? Good.

Nothing will stop this update knowing Anet's history. It might get rolled back, but they like to put things out, feel the water a bit, then make a decision on where to go from there. Any good coming of these threads will be for the future, not this current update.

[Hyper Hypno Hustler]

RedStar, on 14 November 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:

You can dislike the idea of a feature, but until you have all the necesarry informations, you can't really objectively complain/praise that feature.

Sure, you can object and praise without knowing much on the subject.  By "can" I don't mean we simply have the ability to do it; I mean there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.  People object to things on principle all the time.  Do you like sex slave trafficking?  Do you need to read a book and be as informed as possible before you decide?  Perhaps you'd like to try it out yourself before deciding?  How do you feel about dictatorships? Democracies?  Freedom of speech?  Your right to list drivel as your location?  Ok, this is a game, so those things are kind of a bigger deal; but the basic idea is the same.  Talk about freedom, democracy and right, and people will nod, cheer or whatever.  Talk about adding better gear to Gw2, and people boo. I don't need to hear anything else.  I like have voting rights, and I liked not having to worry about getting new gear on my main.  

Waiting to get more info doesn't always mean you're some deep thinker and extremely logical.  Sometimes it just means you're indecisive and don't know what you want.

[RedStar]

Hyper Hypno Hustler, on 14 November 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

Sure, you can object and praise without knowing much on the subject.  By "can" I don't mean we simply have the ability to do it; I mean there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.  People object to things on principle all the time.  Do you like sex slave trafficking?  Do you need to read a book and be as informed as possible before you decide?  Perhaps you'd like to try it out yourself before deciding?  How do you feel about dictatorships? Democracies?  Freedom of speech?  Your right to list drivel as your location?  Ok, this is a game, so those things are kind of a bigger deal; but the basic idea is the same.  Talk about freedom, democracy and right, and people will nod, cheer or whatever.  Talk about adding better gear to Gw2, and people boo. I don't need to hear anything else.  I like have voting rights, and I liked not having to worry about getting new gear on my main.  

Waiting to get more info doesn't always mean you're some deep thinker and extremely logical.  Sometimes it just means you're indecisive and don't know what you want.

Wow...talk about over exaggerating...are you honestly comparing adding ascended armor/a change of idea from Anet to sex slaves and dictatorships ?
But you know what, let's get into that : you are against sex slaves and dictatorships because you more or less what it means, what it is and the consequences.
Ask a five year old his opinions on dictatorships. You'll either get a "huh ?" or if his parents talked to him about politics "it's a bad thing because my parents said so".

On any subject you shouldn't voice your opinion when you pretty much have no informations on it because you aren't voicing a correct opinion. What you are voicing is something you are imagining it to be. First learn the basic informations and then start talking and do deeper research if you want to have more arguments.

And so far, on Ascended armor, you have next to nothing apart from "I don't like the new set". But if I ask you the reason, any reason you cite will probably be because you are thinking of an other game and think that it will happen in more or less the same way in GW2.
And of course "Anet lied to me, they said there wouldn't be gear grind !" but once again, until it's implemented or at least until you have more information, you don't know how much gear grind this is going to mean.

[RabidusIncendia]

RedStar, on 14 November 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

And of course "Anet lied to me, they said there wouldn't be gear grind !" but once again, until it's implemented or at least until you have more information, you don't know how much gear grind this is going to mean.

It's incredibly obvious it will be a significant grind.  No more information is needed, period.  The entire point of it, in there own words, is to give people who have exotics and not legendaries something more to grind for.  We're talking people who grinded their way to 80 and exotics.  It would be sheer idiocy of Anet to have a low grind to piss off half their players to stop pure farmers for a day, since these people farm for hours a day.

Edited by RabidusIncendia, 14 November 2012 - 08:21 PM.

[RedStar]

RabidusIncendia, on 14 November 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

It's incredibly obvious it will be a significant grind.  No more information is needed, period.  The entire point of it, in there own words, is to give people who have exotics and not legendaries something more to grind for.  We're talking people who grinded their way to 80 and exotics.  It would be sheer idiocy of Anet to have a low grind to piss off half their players to stop pure farmers for a day, since these people farm for hours a day.

Anet is extremely vague about things. If you think you know what they mean, you are in for a surprise, because if time showed us something, it's that they can change their mind any instant and say "but ah ha ! We didn't really say that, we weren't clear about it, so we didn't lie ah ha!"

What I'm saying, and have been trying to say since this all started, is that instead of saying stuff like "That's it's I'm quitting GW2 forever !" at least give it a try and see if you like it, if you don't like it but still enjoy the game or if it has totally ruined the game for you.
And then go on the forums and complain about something that really exists and that you have a real problem with it.

[Zhaitan]

Feathermoore, on 14 November 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

You misunderstand. The ascended armor is not the core issue. The core issue is that Anet has set a precedent for adding a new gear tier after release, something that goes against a large number of their player's understanding of their goals for the game.

I just lost respect for this company. Linsey is not a noob they hired. She was with GW for a long time. She was the live team pretty much who did wonderful things w/ GW. When she writes a blog post that pretty much contradicts its own narrative, you know that the push is coming from something beyond ANET's control.

NC is a Korean Grinder manufacturer. When they published this MMO, they will want ANET to introduce their design philosophy. I am afraid, its NC pulling the strings. This whole deal did not come about in last couple months. This has to be their idea all along. First grab the core fan-base who waited 7 years to get this game. Milk 'em. Then try to milk the WOW and Asian gear grinders by introducing new item tiers progressively. The circle of life will be complete.

RedStar, on 14 November 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

Anet is extremely vague about things. If you think you know what they mean, you are in for a surprise, because if time showed us something, it's that they can change their mind any instant and say "but ah ha ! We didn't really say that, we weren't clear about it, so we didn't lie ah ha!"

This is what they do to backpeddle. That's ok. But, I do not believe, ANET can backpeddle out of this one. This has been the game plan. But, it will not actually work and will end up pissing off both the core and the haters.

Edited by Zhaitan, 14 November 2012 - 08:35 PM.

[Jairyn]

In my experience, that circle of life ends with ghost town servers and a tarnished reputation.

[RabidusIncendia]

RedStar, on 14 November 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

Anet is extremely vague about things. If you think you know what they mean, you are in for a surprise, because if time showed us something, it's that they can change their mind any instant and say "but ah ha ! We didn't really say that, we weren't clear about it, so we didn't lie ah ha!"

What I'm saying, and have been trying to say since this all started, is that instead of saying stuff like "That's it's I'm quitting GW2 forever !" at least give it a try and see if you like it, if you don't like it but still enjoy the game or if it has totally ruined the game for you.
And then go on the forums and complain about something that really exists and that you have a real problem with it.

I'll bet 400:1 odds it will take at least 20 hours of dungeon grind for a full set of ascended(not just the ring), if you like.  That would be easy money for me for no risk

[DidYouSeeThat]

Resolve, on 14 November 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Is anyone saying 100 more stats mean you automatically win a fight though?

It's an advantage over someone else, plain and simple.

So is having an exotic vs a Green but I don't hear anyone complaining about their cheap and extremely easy to obtain exotics. Put some effort into your character if you don't want to then learn to deal with having less stats than someone who does want to put effort into their character. Before you tell me your lazy and want to keep your exotics you obtained in 1 month for the next 4 years think about those people who made legendarys that give zero stat bonuses over an exotic and they put in 20 times the effort it will take for ascended items.

[RedStar]

RabidusIncendia, on 14 November 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

I'll bet 400:1 odds it will take at least 20 hours of dungeon grind for a full set of ascended(not just the ring), if you like.  That would be easy money for me for no risk

Full set being exactly what ?
Trinkets + Armor + Every weapon your profession can wear ? Because even running a dungeon enough time to get all of that will probably take around 20 hours to get all the the tokens you need. And you can't even buy trinkets.

I wonder if those items will be soulbound on pick up or when you wear them. And from what I understood, the armor pieces and weapons won't be added for now. So I guess this little bet will have to wait .

[RabidusIncendia]

RedStar, on 14 November 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

Full set being exactly what ?
Trinkets + Armor + Every weapon your profession can wear ? Because even running a dungeon enough time to get all of that will probably take around 20 hours to get all the the tokens you need. And you can't even buy trinkets.

I wonder if those items will be soulbound on pick up or when you wear them. And from what I understood, the armor pieces and weapons won't be added for now. So I guess this little bet will have to wait .

Hah, yeah.  But if you're saying getting 20 hours for a full set for one character sounds about right, don't tell people to just wait that the grind could be nothing it might be "just 20 hours", because that's an amount I would be upset about if they did that every 3 months.  It means I can't have alts for WvWvW, I have to stick to one profession since I will never do that much grind over and over.

Honestly, if they just gave WvW pvp armor, I might actually keep playing this game if they went with a full blown, severe gear grind.

Edited by RabidusIncendia, 14 November 2012 - 08:46 PM.

[adra12]

If Ascended gear is only available via that dungeon and the mystic forge from the start and provides higher stats than exotics I will be annoyed because it goes against their idea that you can achieve max gear through what you enjoy (open world PvE, Magic Find, WvW, Dungeons, crafting).

I certainly will not quit playing over it and will almost certainly be running the new dungeon and collecting Ascended gear but to me WvW is the end game and to be forced to run that dungeon multiple times for my multiple characters to ensure they have max stats gear for WvW will bother me.

If they make it attainable immediately via all methods I don't mind them adding progressive gearing like this, but from the sounds of it from release Ascended items will only be attainable via the dungeon (for rings) and the Mystic Forge (for back item) which is terrible.

[RedStar]

RabidusIncendia, on 14 November 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

Hah, yeah.  But if you're saying getting 20 hours for a full set for one character sounds about right, don't tell people to just wait that the grind could be nothing it might be "just 20 hours", because that's an amount I would be upset about if they did that every 3 months.  It means I can't have alts for WvWvW, I have to stick to one profession since I will never do that much grind over and over.

Honestly, if they just gave WvW pvp armor, I might actually keep playing this game if they went with a full blown, severe gear grind.

I should have been more clear. I think that 20 hours seems like a long time. I got my exotic gear from crafting the chest, leggings and weapons and then using dungeon tokens to buy the rest.
Maybe that's why they are only introducing the rings right now, so players can do it step by step.

But I certainly hope they don't do add new tiers with a high frequency (high frequency being more than every 3 years). I like knowing that I'm losing/taking too much time because I'm bad and not because I don't have the best gear available.

Edited by RedStar, 14 November 2012 - 08:57 PM.

[Roamy]

just wanted to add my opinion to the discussion, im for this change.

i believe this inbetween tier is needed, they said they wont add anymore tiers this is a good change i think.

[Jairyn]

Actually, they didn't say this is the last tier. Many of us would LOVE to hear that, but we haven't. They said it's part of an exciting new "item progression" initiative. I.e. expect more of this horse puckey coming soon. The closest we got is "not every 3 months," which conveniently allows for three months and a day.

Edited by Jairyn, 14 November 2012 - 09:13 PM.

[Own Age Myname]

As far as Im aware there will be an up'd level cap with each expansion...so unless they plan on making gear level with us there's a treadmill. I was against the idea a long time ago but idk if they've decided they will raise the cap.

[RabidusIncendia]

Jairyn, on 14 November 2012 - 09:13 PM, said:

Actually, they didn't say this is the last tier. Many of us would LOVE to hear that, but we haven't. They said it's part of an exciting new "item progression" initiative. I.e. expect more of this horse puckey coming soon. The closest we got is "not every 3 months," which conveniently allows for three months and a day.

More aptly it allows for just "a day" if they felt like they could get away with it, since adding ascended will mean they've lied before.  No reason to expect any of what they say from now on to have a shred of truth.

Edited by RabidusIncendia, 14 November 2012 - 09:40 PM.

[indure]

Roamy, on 14 November 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

just wanted to add my opinion to the discussion, im for this change.

i believe this inbetween tier is needed, they said they wont add anymore tiers this is a good change i think.

Why is Ascended an in-between tier between Exotic and Legendary? Exotic and Legendary are the exact same tier stat wise (currently), with the only difference being in how hard they are to gain. By including Ascended they are creating new tiers and widening the gap between Legendary and Exotic, instead of narrowing it.

On the other hand if their goal is to create a tier that is based on difficulty to acquire, with:
Exotic(medium/casual) > Ascended (hard/dedicated) > Legendary (ridiculously hard/crazy dedicated),
then they are creating a system where the best stat gear in the game is hard to obtain and earned by dedicated players, which would go against their original Design Manifesto almost verbatim.

Edited by indure, 15 November 2012 - 01:23 AM.

[Resolve]

DidYouSeeThat, on 14 November 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

So is having an exotic vs a Green but I don't hear anyone complaining about their cheap and extremely easy to obtain exotics. Put some effort into your character if you don't want to then learn to deal with having less stats than someone who does want to put effort into their character. Before you tell me your lazy and want to keep your exotics you obtained in 1 month for the next 4 years think about those people who made legendarys that give zero stat bonuses over an exotic and they put in 20 times the effort it will take for ascended items.

If you think someone should have an unfair advantage for grinding for hours then go play WoW. This is Guild Wars, which was advertised as no treadmills or _having_ to gain items to do things in the game. It's not like someone who has a legendary has actually done anything noteworthy. It's just a massive grind and time sink. Congratulations on having heaps of time to waste. That's fine and all but should it really give someone more stats? What about people who make alts? Now it's going to take even longer to kit them out.

And yes you will need to get the ascended items to do certain things, they even say this in the latest blog: "After a certain point, our new Ascended items and Infusions become crucial tools for survival." Start of a treadmill right there.

At this point they really should just seperate WvW from PvE similar to how sPvP is. That would cut down on a lot of the problems here.

[Gli]

They can keep adding tiers for as long as they wish, as long as they scale the new stuff down to the level that used to be the max for the content you're playing.

I.e. Ascended stuff should be scaled down to exotic level when playing the old content, and only give its full stats in the new content. That's how an increased level cap would work, so why not equipment as well?

[Hector]

Shiren, on 13 November 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

I never thought they would cross this line.

I think that is the reason so many are so damn mad. They crossed the one line no one wanted them to cross. And they didn't just tiptoe over it either. The blog post crossed the line skipping and whistling. Jesus, it is just the disappointment. I haven't logged in since that blog and, unlike some people, when I say something I mean it, and when I give my word I do everything in my power to keep it. I won't be logging in again.

Edited by Hector, 15 November 2012 - 02:09 AM.

[Ghostwing]

Gli, on 15 November 2012 - 02:06 AM, said:

They can keep adding tiers for as long as they wish, as long as they scale the new stuff down to the level that used to be the max for the content you're playing.

I.e. Ascended stuff should be scaled down to exotic level when playing the old content, and only give its full stats in the new content. That's how an increased level cap would work, so why not equipment as well?

I personally expected a level cap to come with an expansion, which I anticipated to come a year or more down the line. I did not expect to acquire new gear a few weeks after I spent time getting the dungeon exotics. Length of time does matter; if I knew the gear I was getting would only last a few weeks before it'll get replaced I would not have spent that type of time on it.

I think they realize this issue as well--which is why they're saying they're not going to introduce a new tier "every three months."

Edited by Ghostwing, 15 November 2012 - 02:19 AM.

[Resolve]

Hector, on 15 November 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:

I think that is the reason so many are so damn mad. They crossed the one line no one wanted them to cross. And they didn't just tiptoe over it either. The blog post crossed the line skipping and whistling. Jesus, it is just the disappointment. I haven't logged in since that blog and, unlike some people, when I say something I mean it, and when I give my word I do everything in my power to keep it. I won't be logging in again.

Meh, we've already paid. That's the good thing about sub fees. Ill check out the update but really don't think I'll be buying Gems for quite a while.

[XionValkyrie]

How is grinding for Ascended any different than grinding for exotics?   They already said they'll be introducing more ways of getting ascended gear via WvWvW or other means.   All this alarm feels like a repeat of the whole exotics issue we had a few months ago, where people were going crazy over the fact that exotics have 13% stat advantage over rares, and it ended up being a non-issue.