1975 replies to this topic

[Susanoh]

ZombieKing, on 16 November 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

Off topic but ill bite. lets see here
Acended gear    Exotic
+50 power +48 power
+50 Precision +48 precision

A diffrenc of +2

Statment in video "its only +2 in some stats"
Hence statement is true. But seems you wanted him to do all the math for you so lets do that.

Acended gear Exotic Diffrence
+50 power    +48 power +2
+50 Precision       +48 precision +2
+10% magic find +7% magic find   +3
+18 precision   +15 percision +3
+18 Power   +15 power +3

Fell better? now for homework id like you to write an essay on why you like to jump to conclusion. TY

The differences between the ascended item and exotic item is +5 Power, +5 Precision, +3 Magic Find. Why both you and the guy in the video are refusing to look at the whole item is beyond me. Maybe Arenanet should have instead just given the item the same stats as the exotic and then added:

Power+1
Power+1
Power+1
Power+1
Power+1

Then you guys would say, "Wow, there's only a 1 point stat difference between them!"

[MazingerZ]

Going back to the previous thought... Legendaries and Exotics have the same stats, from everything I have seen and read.

Why is Ascended a go-between, but offer more stats?

No one's questioned them on that and gotten a reasonable response.

[Runkleford]

MazingerZ, on 16 November 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

Going back to the previous thought... Legendaries and Exotics have the same stats, from everything I have seen and read.

Why is Ascended a go-between, but offer more stats?

No one's questioned them on that and gotten a reasonable response.

Or why higher stats are needed for this progression when the infusion to mitigate Agony should suffice. Or how higher stat gear makes sense when they're trying to provide a "challenge" for the hardcore players.

[MazingerZ]

That kind of my point.  Poke holes in the logic of this decision on their part.  It really makes no sense.

[ogrejd]

MazingerZ, on 16 November 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

Going back to the previous thought... Legendaries and Exotics have the same stats, from everything I have seen and read.

Why is Ascended a go-between, but offer more stats?

No one's questioned them on that and gotten a reasonable response.

Between Exotic and Legendary in rarity and difficulty to acquire - but above Exotic and equal to Legendary in power.

[Resolve]

MazingerZ, on 16 November 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

Going back to the previous thought... Legendaries and Exotics have the same stats, from everything I have seen and read.

Why is Ascended a go-between, but offer more stats?

No one's questioned them on that and gotten a reasonable response.

Yeah, Legendaries will have the new ascended stats. There was no "gap to bridge" until they created one.

[MazingerZ]

ogrejd, on 16 November 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

Between Exotic and Legendary in rarity and difficulty to acquire - but above Exotic and equal to Legendary in power.

That's my point.  The rarity and difficulty to acquire is different, but the POWER of those items is the same.  However, Ascended items have a higher POWER level compared to Exotics and the current Legendaries.

Why do we need this go-between?  ArenaNet hasn't really explained it, other than as a 'pleasure-button-reward' in between Exotics and Legendaries, since Legendaries take longer to acquire than Exotics.  But the extra stats detracts from that statement.

Resolve, on 16 November 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

Yeah, Legendaries will have the new ascended stats. There was no "gap to bridge" until they created one.

That's my point.  They're raising the ceiling for no reason.  No one has challenged that.  Instead, lines are being drawn in the sand between people who want the treadmill versus people who don't.

[Resolve]

MazingerZ, on 16 November 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

That's my point.  They're raising the ceiling for no reason.  No one has challenged that.  Instead, lines are being drawn in the sand between people who want the treadmill versus people who don't.

Yeah I'm agreeing with you, I've been saying the same thing. Good luck convincing some of the people here of that though.

[gattsuru]

One potential concern about Ascended as a gear level is that it becomes mandatory : groups where all members have Ascended stats outcompete players operating at the Exotic level, either steamrolling (in WvWvW), or refusing to run groups that have lower stats and can't trivialize the content.  Much of that distinction, in either event, relies on gear bonuses having a real or perceived difference in real-world situations.  We don't yet have an idea of what the full Ascended gear tier will look like, but with the release of the first Ascended rings it's possible to project rough estimates of what some possible numbers will look like.

Some Caveats :

1) Projections are just that: projections.  And not ones based on a terribly large amount of evidence.  We've no idea how many of these items will look, and if they do they'll almost certainly not have stats looking like these.  ((I'd personally expect to see less and less Precision, due to trait interaction.))
2) The numbers that do exist come from the gw2db.com page, not experimental observation.  There's always a chance I transposed a digit or misunderstood a value -- part of the reason I bring the matter up here.
3) The focus on Berserker is a thought experiment; most folk aren't going to use this setup, or they'll die.  A lot.
4) I've left out the back slot: the costs are out-of-whack and the numbers fairly small.  Yes, that increases the likely inaccuracy since I'm projecting entire sets from just the rings, but I'd rather have little data than data that's obviously weird.  Same goes for the briefly bumped Legendary Weapons.
5) I didn't give Agony Resistance a look.  No idea its prevalence, and thus no idea its value.
6) I'm not a hardcore numbercruncher. It's likely I've converted something incorrectly, either through retyping or in the math itself.


The central spreadsheet's here.  Thoughts?  Interests?  Surprises?

MOD EDIT: I've merged this topic with an already existing Ascended thread due to the fact that there were too many parallels between the 2.

Edited by Shadok, 17 November 2012 - 12:40 AM.
merged thread

[GW Corrupted]

My projection is that you will spend 1000 hours grinding gear for a single build in WvW that you won't feel cheated when you die by narrow margins.  Come expansion day, you will do that all over again.  So.  Much.  Fun.

[Featherman]

Increasingly higher tiers of berserker gear will be dangerous to the already shaky balance of WvWvW as the environment allows glass cannon specs to thrive

Edited by Featherman, 16 November 2012 - 10:46 PM.

[RabidusIncendia]

MazingerZ, on 16 November 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

No one has challenged that.  Instead, lines are being drawn in the sand between people who want the treadmill versus people who don't.

It's kinda sad really that this outrage is bringing the absolute worst bit of argumentation.

Most people aren't actually arguing at this point, they're just spouting things they don't even believe that might help their position if they can pass it off as real.  When you get quite literally insane comments like "People said they wanted gear progression, and now that they have it they don't want it" repeated over and over your first thoughts have to be "Wow these people are literally insane" but then you realize they don't even believe what they're typing and you get a little relieved.

But it's pretty sad.  Because they aren't convincing anyone who stops to think about what they're writing, and they lose respect from anyone who actually does argue for the sake of trying to find the truth of things.

Edited by RabidusIncendia, 16 November 2012 - 10:50 PM.

[WinterSnowblind]

Resolve, on 16 November 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

Yeah, Legendaries will have the new ascended stats. There was no "gap to bridge" until they created one.

The gap to bridge wasn't in terms of stats, but the difficulty in obtaining them.  Exotics were clearly supposed to be more difficult to get than they intended and Legendaries require too much of a time investment for many to bother with.  Ascended gear is meant to create a long term goal inbetween Exotics and legendaries.

Why they felt the need to increase the stats?  Who knows.  Maybe not enough people were bothering going for the mystic forge skins, or maybe they wanted the current dungeons to be slightly easier for those who go to the effort of getting the new tier.  It most likely is just as incentive to upgrade your exotics and I really don't think people need to be worried about "power creep" becoming the norm.

Edited by WinterSnowblind, 16 November 2012 - 10:55 PM.

[gattsuru]

Featherman, on 16 November 2012 - 10:45 PM, said:

Increasingly higher tiers of berserker gear will be dangerous to the already shaky balance of WvWvW as the environment allows glass cannon specs to thrive

Not terribly obvious that's the most likely result -- highly effective glass-cannon builds tend to get a heat-seeking nerfbat rather quickly (every stealth class in any game ever), and much of the existing metagame seems to favor them for rather specialized uses.  Staff Elementalists might start picking up the traitset, though.

[Featherman]

Speaking in terms of relative increases, the increase stats from higher tiers of berserkers will compound and provide a higher offensive than their individual sum. Conversely, defensive stats such as vitality and toughness will see the same increase but will not compound with one another to produce the same amount of defense needed to offset the stats from berserkers. If we see a linear increase in each of the stats with the introduction of higher and higher tiers, the gains from berserkers will win out due to the compounding nature of their stats. The only way to balance this without hurting players with lower tier equipment would be to rewrite damage formula to include a marginal decrease in gains from power/precision/crit after a threshold.

Also Grenadier Engineers put Elementalists to shame, because ANet's devs don't listen to the feedback on their ele subforum. You can talk trash about the developers with little risk of infraction. It's sad but kind of funny.

Edited by Featherman, 17 November 2012 - 12:49 AM.

[GW Corrupted]

WinterSnowblind, on 16 November 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

The gap to bridge wasn't in terms of stats, but the difficulty in obtaining them.  Exotics were clearly supposed to be more difficult to get than they intended and Legendaries require too much of a time investment for many to bother with.  Ascended gear is meant to create a long term goal inbetween Exotics and legendaries.

Why they felt the need to increase the stats?  Who knows.  Maybe not enough people were bothering going for the mystic forge skins, or maybe they wanted the current dungeons to be slightly easier for those who go to the effort of getting the new tier.  It most likely is just as incentive to upgrade your exotics and I really don't think people need to be worried about "power creep" becoming the norm.

Official statements include:

1) A new tier of gear is something that would normally be left to an expansion. (So what do you expect from the expansions, then?)
2) They won't add a new tier every 3 months.  (6 months is no problem)
3) More powerful infusions are in the works. (Grinding without even a new tier having to be added)
4) Suggesting level cap will increase.  (All new gear without needing a tier)

You have to be naive to think that with signals like these they have any qualms about "power creep."  Read between the lines.  What they have told us is that power will creep whenever they think it will improve their bottom line.

[Jason Seven]

Ghostwing, on 16 November 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

snip

Then you believed in a fleeting dream and just woken up to face reality. Like it or not, but players such as yourself aren't an MMORPGs main audience and certainly not who its developers are catering to. More damage and health, larger numbers, stronger bosses are the very point of having tiered gear. HIgher and larger numbers give players a much better sense of progression and they will always want to see higher and higher numbers as times goes on. Providing them with such will ensure players to be satisfied and keeps them playing. People need this increase in stats otherwise they will lack any kind of motivation to chase after these items. GW2 also needs players playing it, just like GW1. I've already explained by in a previous post. It basically goes back to a larger playerbase meaning more of their acquaintances wanting to play for themselves, meaning sales increase or remain steady at least. No subscription fee is a huge plus. It's true, some might just want to play through content but that's only a very, very tiny fragment of an MMORPGs audience. You can already see for yourself that this is true. Just take a look at what ArenaNet has added to the game and which kind of player this pleases the most. It's no longer about their previous players.

[Bad Idea Generator]

The recourse against this consists primarily of getting unhappy and complaining about it, so +1 unhappy complainer here.

I voted 1. No and 2. Yes, partly because I didn't feel like trying to explain a depends right away, and because I'm not really sure.
My thoughts are that a standard gear treadmill or random loot hunts could be a good thing... in their own area of the game.  I'm pretty sure this has come up earlier in the thread, but at 60 pages, I'm not interested in finding it.

I've played Diablo 2 and various impersonators and found them enjoyable enough that I can't say that a loot game is a bad thing, but it's not what I play Guild Wars 2 in particular for.  A subsection like this Fractals thing that could work as a separate PvE subgame (a similar idea to SPvP) that was a kind of miniature Diablo 2/Torchlight-ish game would be a neat addition and could be a place for gear to expand, possibly with some leveling of balance so everyone starts from the same space in it.

However, in the main game, with standard dungeons, maps, story, and WvW, I'd like to be able to get maximum equipment fairly easily and then focus on playing the game because it is fun and engaging.

[Ghostwing]

Jason Seven, on 17 November 2012 - 12:39 AM, said:

Then you believed in a fleeting dream and just woken up to face reality. Like it or not, but players such as yourself aren't an MMORPGs main audience and certainly not who its developers are catering to. More damage and health, larger numbers, stronger bosses are the very point of having tiered gear. HIgher and larger numbers give players a much better sense of progression and they will always want to see higher and higher numbers as times goes on. Providing them with such will ensure players to be satisfied and keeps them playing. People need this increase in stats otherwise they will lack any kind of motivation to chase after these items. GW2 also needs players playing it, just like GW1. I've already explained by in a previous post. It basically goes back to a larger playerbase meaning more of their acquaintances wanting to play for themselves, meaning sales increase or remain steady at least. No subscription fee is a huge plus. It's true, some might just want to play through content but that's only a very, very tiny fragment of an MMORPGs audience. You can already see for yourself that this is true. Just take a look at what ArenaNet has added to the game and which kind of player this pleases the most. It's no longer about their previous players.

We'll see how much of a difference each tier would make (if they introduce even more tiers after this). If the two tiers from now doesn't make the exotic tier irrelevant, then it's nowhere near the numbers required in WoW and not really that bad. Whether that'd piss off the numbers crowd when there aren't DPS counters or anything, who knows. Maybe Anet will be able to find a middle ground.

I highly doubt they're going to continually add content every 3 months without a sub fee anyway. And if the only way they can stretch out each update is to make it even grindier than the last, *shrugs* I'll just leave when I get bored.

Edited by Ghostwing, 17 November 2012 - 01:54 AM.

[BlackBoxx]

Jason Seven, on 17 November 2012 - 12:39 AM, said:

Then you believed in a fleeting dream and just woken up to face reality. Like it or not, but players such as yourself aren't an MMORPGs main audience and certainly not who its developers are catering to. More damage and health, larger numbers, stronger bosses are the very point of having tiered gear. HIgher and larger numbers give players a much better sense of progression and they will always want to see higher and higher numbers as times goes on. Providing them with such will ensure players to be satisfied and keeps them playing. People need this increase in stats otherwise they will lack any kind of motivation to chase after these items. GW2 also needs players playing it, just like GW1. I've already explained by in a previous post. It basically goes back to a larger playerbase meaning more of their acquaintances wanting to play for themselves, meaning sales increase or remain steady at least. No subscription fee is a huge plus. It's true, some might just want to play through content but that's only a very, very tiny fragment of an MMORPGs audience. You can already see for yourself that this is true. Just take a look at what ArenaNet has added to the game and which kind of player this pleases the most. It's no longer about their previous players.

My goodness, you're annoying.  I can tolerate smugness from people like Raspberry Jam, who are intelligent and can actually put sound reasoning behind their posts, even if I disagree with them.  But you?  You're a broken record.  All of your bellowing comes down to one simple statement; mmorpgs are all about making numbers grow.  

That's seven different flavors of wrong right there.  MMORPGs are about role-playing with many other people in an online setting.  None of that means player characters must perpetually get higher and higher numbers on their character sheet.  Yes, the role-playing aspect of the game means there should be some sort of character development, but not that the numbers must keep increasing.  Just look at Guild Wars 1 (yes, it is an apt comparison since it's also an RPG.  the number of players able to participate in the same events at a time has no bearing on the need for bigger and better junk).  In the seven years it has been in play, not once did they add weapons with higher damage, or armor with better defenses.  They added different ways to get the maximum values, and new skins to wear, but no higher numbers.

People kept playing GW1 without stronger items to acquire.  You may not like it, but plenty of them were perfectly content to keep playing simply for different looks.  It can work.  Stat-seekers such as yourself couldn't understand that.  Worse, you wouldn't let just one game on the market be different.  You had to have your stupid gear progression, and you wouldn't shut up until you got it.  Why couldn't you just go back to the plethora of other games out there that cater to your play style?  For the novelty?  Obviously not, since you won't let GW2 be different.  The lack of monthly fee?  Not likely.  There's plenty of free to play games that go the treadmill route (Aion, SWtoR will join soon).  

People like you ruined GW2.  I hope you're happy.  Oh wait.  You got what you want.  You know how to get it again when you want more.  Of course you are!

[Corvindi]

Jason Seven, on 17 November 2012 - 12:39 AM, said:

Then you believed in a fleeting dream and just woken up to face reality. Like it or not, but players such as yourself aren't an MMORPGs main audience and certainly not who its developers are catering to. More damage and health, larger numbers, stronger bosses are the very point of having tiered gear. HIgher and larger numbers give players a much better sense of progression and they will always want to see higher and higher numbers as times goes on. Providing them with such will ensure players to be satisfied and keeps them playing. People need this increase in stats otherwise they will lack any kind of motivation to chase after these items. GW2 also needs players playing it, just like GW1. I've already explained by in a previous post. It basically goes back to a larger playerbase meaning more of their acquaintances wanting to play for themselves, meaning sales increase or remain steady at least. No subscription fee is a huge plus. It's true, some might just want to play through content but that's only a very, very tiny fragment of an MMORPGs audience. You can already see for yourself that this is true. Just take a look at what ArenaNet has added to the game and which kind of player this pleases the most. It's no longer about their previous players.

If that is true there are only two possible reasons we were told this game would not have that kind of stat gear treadmill:

1.  We were flat out lied to.

2.  The people who created Guild Wars 2 had no clue what their target audience really wanted.

Whichever answer you go with, you're left with some very angry customers.

[Soki]

Anybody who thinks Agony is a good mechanic are wrong, if the goal of the game is to be presented with a challenge, and to have fun.
Anybody who thinks people who criticize a bad system like Agony, and tell them to leave, are part of the problem in the game indusry - and should leave.

[ZoeMayZing]

To be honest, if they got RID of the stat increase, it would fix this issue. Keep the new dungeon/items/Agony debuff/Infusions, and hell, keep the 'ascended' look/feel/color text, just limit it to fractals. For everything else, just make it cosmetic, like how greens were in GW1. Wouldn't that be the easiest fix? That way, it would still retain the 'cosmetic' angle GW2 is aiming for, while still keeping a sense of inclusiveness for everyone so no one's left out of the gaming experience.

[abr4]

GW Corrupted, on 16 November 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

4) Suggesting level cap will increase.  (All new gear without needing a tier)

#1 reason why I'm getting out now besides adding ascended gear. Level cap increases are just as bad as item stat increases.

[\Nuking]

Wow. I was actually thinking og re-installing now with the event and stuff. Oh well. Guess not

[ogrejd]

\Nuking, on 17 November 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

Wow. I was actually thinking og re-installing now with the event and stuff. Oh well. Guess not

The event's garbage, too. Just a lagfest, both in Lion's Arch and at Southsun Cove. Nothing interesting happened, in either case, just a large brawl against the Jade Sea Rejects, er, Karka.

[Wordsworth]

ogrejd, on 17 November 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

The event's garbage, too. Just a lagfest, both in Lion's Arch and at Southsun Cove. Nothing interesting happened, in either case, just a large brawl against the Jade Sea Rejects, er, Karka.

I had my alarm set for 12 PM PST. I woke up. Remembered what happened on Friday. Went back to sleep.

[Ghostwing]

BlackBoxx, on 17 November 2012 - 02:28 AM, said:

In the seven years it has been in play, not once did they add weapons with higher damage, or armor with better defenses.  They added different ways to get the maximum values, and new skins to wear, but no higher numbers.

Well, in GW1 the title rank grinds did lead to just an increase in numbers. EotN rep grinds were the worst. There wasn't a new gear tier or a level cap raise but it's still a form of vertical progression and an increase in just numbers.

Anyway, I think Jason and everyone else are speculating a bit too much based on the addition of two rings and a back item, pieces that had very limited upgrades thus far (crafted rings and guild backpacks only). We don't know exactly what Anet's going to do in the future with new stats, or whether it'd invalidate our current armor sets.

Edited by Ghostwing, 17 November 2012 - 11:00 PM.

[ogrejd]

Didn't help that nothing actually happened until 50 minutes after the announced start time (at least on the overflow I was on).  Then it was just zerg time in the same part of LA as yesterday (with the same problems - so fun to die before anything around you has even been drawn), then zerg time at Southsun Cove, rather than anything actually interesting...

Edited by ogrejd, 17 November 2012 - 10:31 PM.

[Hector]

Just got banned from the official forums. I really haven't done anything there besides comment in the giant thread and I get banned.

I was done with Anet before this but this is just ridiculous.

Sweep it under the rug, Anet. I am sure no one will notice just how much of an extreme grind you just put into the game.