1975 replies to this topic

[Jairyn]

Neither I nor my friends logged in for the event today, out of mini-protest. I really do hope they saw a comparatively low overall rate of concurrency. To go by forum posts (which is kinda insane, I know), not half as many people wanted this as did not.

[Corvindi]

Hector, on 17 November 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

Just got banned from the official forums. I really haven't done anything there besides comment in the giant thread and I get banned.

I was done with Anet before this but this is just ridiculous.

Sweep it under the rug, Anet. I am sure no one will notice just how much of an extreme grind you just put into the game.

I fear I might be wearing out my welcome as well.  I better give it a rest on the official forum for a bit and give the mods a few days to forget my name!  

[Korra]

ANyone got any fractal weapon yet?

[ExplosivePinata]

Give me more skins to choose from yes, but give me a slight advantage with them, no thanks!

Q:  In GW1 did people farm Bone Dragon staffs or Frog Scepters etc. etc. because they gave them an advantage statistically?

A:  No!

Edited by ExplosivePinata, 18 November 2012 - 02:34 PM.

[ToySoldier]

ExplosivePinata, on 18 November 2012 - 02:19 AM, said:

Give me more skins to choose from yes, but give me a slight advantage with them, no thanks!

Q:  In GW1 did people farm Bone Dragon staffs or Frog Scepters etc. etc. because they gave them an advantage statistically?

A:  No!

I'm guessing this was a boneheaded NCsoft idea or something.

Won't surprise me.  NCsoft did make Aion, an insane grind game.  I'm starting to wonder if NCsoft label may soon equate "grind" to me.

[Velron]

Hector, on 17 November 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

Just got banned from the official forums. I really haven't done anything there besides comment in the giant thread and I get banned.

I was done with Anet before this but this is just ridiculous.

Sweep it under the rug, Anet. I am sure no one will notice just how much of an extreme grind you just put into the game.

Got a ban myself over there. *ing so many posts infracted and deleted for no reason in the threads about the ascended items. I'm *in pissed. Anet can eat shit and *ing die is how I feel now. (and no none of my posts were raging and full of curse words on their site, I was careful to word them properly and they'd still be deleted)

Just a week ago I was telling 2 random strangers about the game, ah how the dagger in the back changes things so quickly.

Edited by Velron, 18 November 2012 - 03:30 AM.

[ToySoldier]

Velron, on 18 November 2012 - 03:29 AM, said:

Just a week ago I was telling 2 random strangers about the game, ah how the dagger in the back changes things so quickly.

Sorry to hear. It's why I never post on the official forum.  Much prefer Guru.

Just realized I had loved Aion (another NCSoft game) till mega craft component grind and PvP ganking drove majority of the players away.  It now has 5 servers after it finally went FTP.

Really hope this does not happen to GW2.  I doubt it will happen because PvP ganking is at least controlled here.  But Ascended gear is a big sore spot for me when it is introduced in under 3 months from launch.  I'm going to watch the show from the sidelines for a while.

[Jason Seven]

Ghostwing, on 17 November 2012 - 01:34 AM, said:

snip

Sooner or later, every piece of equipment will become obsolete, save for its looks if you're into that whole fashion thing. It's already been pretty much confirmed that there will be stronger and stronger infusions added for Ascended gear. This way they wouldn't even need to introduce a new tier of armor. They could also just raise the level cap and introduce higher level armor. It will satisfy players such as myself as long as there is a constant sense of progression, higher numbers and more content. A middle ground is very hard, almost impossible to reach. You cannot appeal to both audiences at the same time, their wishes differ too much for this to ever happen. People like me will just go back to our main games constantly to bridge the time in between content updates and just like you said, you can leave and join back in at your liking. The wonders of having no subscription fee. It's perfect, don't you think?

BlackBoxx, on 17 November 2012 - 02:28 AM, said:

snip

No need to get this upset and almost insulting just because our views are different. You hit the nail on the head though, I am repeatedly saying that MMORPGS are all about nothing but growing numbers because that's exactly what they are about. Anyone who thinks otherwise somehow lost touch with reality. If GW2 was in fact about role-playing, then why are there no dedicated role-playing servers and only unofficial ones? Some MMORPGs do have dedicated RP servers but we all know what people on those are doing and if that's what role-playing in MMORPGs is about then it's no surprise why that very aspect vanished into oblivion. Now, normal RPGs are also about obtaining better and better gear as you progress further into the game to be up to par with newly presented challenges until you've beaten the final boss and in many games the bonus or true boss in an additional dungeon or level afterwards. I fail to see how any of this even remotely relates to role-playing. For those few GW1 players it might've been enough to play a game with absolutely no gear progression but as far as I can tell, those who enjoyed GW1 never really enjoyed GW2 considering all the complaints by GW1 players about sluggish and lacking combat, weapon bound skills, not enough skills, bad story and unrefined dungeons just to name a couple. So, GW1 players didn't like GW2, other players didn't like GW2 but then who did like it? Not many, so It was only logical for them to try and meet the demand of this huge amount of players wanting more content and progression. While I am happy about the change in direction if ArenaNet thinks that adding 4 little dungeons into their game which are getting harder and harder will keep people like me playing, then they don't understand what we want at all. We don't want challenges, we want rewards as fast and easy as possible. Adding the Ascended gear over time was also another huge mistake. It just makes this new gear feel incomplete, much like the entire game. But ruin GW2? No, not at all. We asked for more and they delivered, even if it wasn't very much. Always keep in mind, it's ArenaNet who decided to do this and nobody else, we only made suggestions.

Corvindi, on 17 November 2012 - 02:34 AM, said:

snip

You begin to understand, by the looks of it. ArenaNet wants to make the best MMORPG on the market. Everyone knows this cannot be done by catering to a tiny, niche crowd. It was very foolish to have even believed a single word they ever said if this was their main goal from the get-go. Just look at their blogposts and recent forum entries. It's so obvious to see what they are doing, it almost hurts. Then again, truth always hurts if you were led to believe a lie, I guess. As far as angry customers are concerned, let me put it this way: There will be a few sacrifices to be made in order to achieve greatness. Those are insignificant overall, though. Still think they made a game for you, the players, like they said? I hope not or you're in for another shock.

[Corvindi]

Jason Seven:  I believe a lot of game devs love MMOs and really do want to make games they actually want to play.  But they have to attract investors, and/or deal with publishers and partners and in this case NCSoft is the publisher and it has to deal with shareholders, which involves yet more people with their hands out expecting, no, demanding big profits.

My biggest issue isn't the profits, it's not the fact that this is business, my biggest issue is that the MMO industry as a whole is more secretive and shady than many large governments.  There are so many things they don't tell us about why they make the decisions that they do.

[Ghostwing]

Jason Seven, on 18 November 2012 - 04:37 AM, said:

Sooner or later, every piece of equipment will become obsolete, save for its looks if you're into that whole fashion thing. It's already been pretty much confirmed that there will be stronger and stronger infusions added for Ascended gear. This way they wouldn't even need to introduce a new tier of armor. They could also just raise the level cap and introduce higher level armor. It will satisfy players such as myself as long as there is a constant sense of progression, higher numbers and more content. A middle ground is very hard, almost impossible to reach. You cannot appeal to both audiences at the same time, their wishes differ too much for this to ever happen. People like me will just go back to our main games constantly to bridge the time in between content updates and just like you said, you can leave and join back in at your liking. The wonders of having no subscription fee. It's perfect, don't you think?

For your first point: not if they allow you to upgrade your equipment via the mystic forge. You still have to play the new content, but they can make it so upgrading old stuff costs less badges than buying new stuff. That's just one idea to reach a middle ground. I'm sure Anet can think up of plenty more, if they wanted to.

Raising the level cap usually comes with expansions, which usually come out 9 months to a year after release (or the previous expansion). There is a huge difference between a level cap that players can reach organically just by playing the game, and gear you repeatedly grind the same zones for. I have no problem with a stat increase 9 months to a year after release, as long as it comes with content that brings those stats organically (whether by level cap, gear increase, titles, number of consumables your character uses, etc). I do have a problem with significant tier upgrades every 3 months for one dungeon to be ran 90 times. It doesn't look like the short-term gear grind is going to happen, though, so yes, there is a middle ground between the gear progression crowd who can leave to run treadmills elsewhere while there are no new stats to raise in GW2, and those of us who play to beat content and pvp.

Yeah, they said they'll keep adding more infusions. They didn't say there's going to be insane differences between them. Besides, they had also said they WEREN'T going to add a treadmill, and they're saying this right now as well. At this point, it seems it doesn't really matter what they say. If they added in the new tier to appease the asshats who want higher numbers, maybe they'll stop in order to appease the people who bought the game based on the original premise because of the current backlash. At this point, who really knows? lol

To me, this is just a game, and I can only give my feedback. To them, this is a business; it's their livelihood. I can't blame them for appealing to the market that'll bring them the most stability, but at this point, it's too early to say that the majority of people who pay for GW2 are in the constant numbers progression crowd. Those people might be the majority of MMORPG players, but the majority of MMORPG players are playing WoW, not GW2.

Edited by Ghostwing, 18 November 2012 - 05:33 AM.

[BlackBoxx]

Way to miss the point completely.  RPGs are not about making numbers grow indefinitely.  They are about making choices as a character, whether that be through dialog options, improvised reactions to a hypothetical situation (the only form you even bothered to address and assumed it was my entire point), or choosing abilities, stats, gear, what have you.  For most people, role-playing refers to the last set.  This is why JRPGs are even considered RPGs at all.  They usually give you no input on anything other than what skills and gear your characters get, but that's enough.

So, getting gear, allocating stats, selecting your skills, that stuff is considered role-playing.  We clear now?  MMORPGs are about doing those things with, and let me slow down here so you can catch up............ many other people.  What part of that says you must continually gain higher stats?  It's certainly a viable option, and has proven to be profitable when done right.  It is not a requirement.  It's the status quo.

By the way, there were not just a "few" GW1 players.  It sold roughly 5 million units.  Granted, that does not mean 5 million players, but it does mean it was a success.  There was absolutely no reason GW1's philosophy could not translate to a true MMO.  Clunky combat?  Fewer skills?  Poorly implemented dungeons?  All of that could be fixed in time.  A new tier with improved stats can't simply be taken out without causing even more frustration.

I must repeat something I said in another post in this thread.  No one is complaining about adding new gear, new dungeons or new events.  That's more content that everyone could at least support being added, even if individual players were not interested in participation or acquisition.  No one is opposed to progression either.  GW1 survived for years with horizontal progression.  Contrary to what you may believe, it is a real thing.  It simply means giving more options to the player without making them more powerful.  ANet could have made ascended gear with different stat allocations, but kept them within the current exotic budgets.  But no, they decided to just pump up the numbers.  So, despite being told that we could farm up our preferred set and be done for as long as the game is live, three months into the game, we are told we now have to get an entirely new set.  THIS DID NOT HAVE TO BE THE CASE!

I have not lost touch with reality, you pickle noticing paint sniffer (I like to keep things PG on the internet, but I assure you, I can come up with much better face-to-face).  In fact, I'd say you need to get that tunnel vision of yours checked out.  You see one aspect of MMO's and assume that's all there is.  You see one aspect of RPGs and assume that's all there is.  Your reality is far too tiny for you to be commenting on others' perception of it.

[Ritualist]

ExplosivePinata, on 18 November 2012 - 02:19 AM, said:

Give me more skins to choose from yes, but give me a slight advantage with them, no thanks!

Q:  In GW1 did people farm Bone Dragon staffs or Frog Scepters etc. etc. because they gave them an advantage statistically?

A:  No!

I'm guessing this was a boneheaded NCsoft idea or something.

Honestly, it's not that simple because of how many absolutely moronic ideas A.Net incorporated.
The reason why people farmed BDS was because they could sell them. And in GW2, every piece of shit is soulbound (with A.Net arguing that it's the items you can't sell that are the most prestigious) and not only that, A.Net is selling gold in the cash shop, which means that items bought with gold lose (some of) their prestigious element.
So, with that in mind, stats are probably the only thing that makes sense raising in GW2 because they are objectively better and this will make sure that they always mean something.

[DuskWolf]

\Nuking, on 17 November 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

Wow. I was actually thinking og re-installing now with the event and stuff. Oh well. Guess not

Yep, my entire group of 8 has moved over to the likes of Mass Effect 3 and Champions Online. GW2 is forgettable for me at this point, as with all the Cult of ArenaNet types around here, I doubt we're going to see change any time soon.

Oh, to play a game which has combat as speedy and tactical as ME3 in an MMORPG. Guild Wars 2 could have been that, instead it's a slow mess. Combat feels like moving through treacle, it takes forever to get anywhere, and every little thing you do has a heavy monetary tax in some form or another. And now they're just adding in more and more kinds of grind in the form of treadmills. Lovely. It's cynical. It's predatory. And I want nothing more to do with it. Nor does my group. We're gone. I wonder how much more the exodus will grow?

But really, we've been having a blast with ME3. Feel free to join us! I'll say this: It feels a hell of a lot more fun to play right now than GW2.

[ExplosivePinata]

Protoss, on 18 November 2012 - 08:48 AM, said:

Honestly, it's not that simple because of how many absolutely moronic ideas A.Net incorporated.
The reason why people farmed BDS was because they could sell them. And in GW2, every piece of shit is soulbound (with A.Net arguing that it's the items you can't sell that are the most prestigious) and not only that, A.Net is selling gold in the cash shop, which means that items bought with gold lose (some of) their prestigious element.
So, with that in mind, stats are probably the only thing that makes sense raising in GW2 because they are objectively better and this will make sure that they always mean something.

I keep forgetting about soulbound items.  The other day I got two gold/yellow drops that were souldbound on aquire, ugh!

Edited by ExplosivePinata, 18 November 2012 - 02:38 PM.

[Hector]

ASB.4295 in the frankenthread at the official forums said:

"A golem named BUY-4373, an NPC named Subdirector Blingg, and a jumping puzzle named Under New Management.
I’m sorry, but those references are too coincidental to just be funny. Thanks for letting us now, ANet.
The acronym for the new dungeon is Flavor of the Month."

So yeah, since I don't want to feel so duped I am going to go ahead and believe that there was a sort of hostile take over within Anet and that the start was when Nexon bought shares and insisted Crystin Cox be put on the team.

I am choosing to believe right now that this is Anets way of letting us know they have no choice but to do this. I am still never playing the game again but... Meh, shouting at a brick wall.

Edited by Hector, 18 November 2012 - 04:56 PM.

[FoxBat]

Making gold more desirable is not going to significantly increase gem sales IMO. Gem value will drop and fewer will bother. Heck gem value was quite low before the Halloween update kicked in, and that's a bad thing for the Anet bottom line. This is some kind of selling out but it's not quite pay to win... until they introduce some items that significantly reduce the ascended grind somehow.

[JimC]

Anyone who thinks this kind of power increase is not MANDATORY to be at all competitive in game is DELUDED. All future PvE content will be balanced on this growing power creep. No amount of skill can possible bridge a future 38% power shift. I used Backstab numbers since, this will be the skill that shows how catastrophic this change will be, however changing the skill coefficient for the damage does not change the % increase, just the numbers. I dont think I need to explain the damage a 17k backstab followed by 10k heart seekers will cause. This doesn't even count the 5k mug, 2k lighting bolt and "nerfed" 5k c&d, nor the stun/immobilize/poison/etc. I fully admit the numbers below are a best case for this Thief in WvW vs an exotic geared lvl 80 light armour character (not that it is all that difficult to manufacture such a case). Game design also must account for the extreme corner case still being fun to play against.

This comparison is for a popular 25/30/0/0/15 back stab build in berserker gear, food, runes, etc. It assumes ascended armour/weapons will have the equivalent rune upgrade slot and they increase in stat budget the same amount the rings/backslot did.

Add in that ascended equipment looks to be expensive to the tune of 60g+ / slot in addition to the dungeon runs for bound tokens...

Exotic Current Best Full Ascended/Infused
Base Damage 5,633 5,703 6,454
Crit Damage 13,012 13,516 16,717
Crit Chance 71 72 76
Average 9,259 9,771 12,779
Increase 0 512 3,521
% Better 0 6 38

Edited by JimC, 18 November 2012 - 06:35 PM.

[Katreyn]

After seeing how to get the new Ascended gear I feel like me trying to be agreeable with it was a bad idea (not to mention the stats).  :/  I know there may be more ways in the future, but I highly doubt they will be "easier" if anything they will still have same material requires aka 250  max of one item or another.  

Back slots = grind a bunch of max tier materials.  (ie. 1 vial from new dungeon, 50 ectos, 250 vicious claws/ancient bones, etc.)
Rings = spend a lot of time in a dungeon at a potentially random stat coupling.  And these don't even show up till level 10-11; at least hte low tier rings (the ones that aren't infused already - level 20~ for the infused ones).

That and I can't help to feel that the new zone feels slightly overtuned because it was meant for ascended geared people (its not exactly hard, just it feels like stuff hits a lot more then it ever did in Orr and I have a lot of vit and toughness for a light armored character >.<).  :/  

I could just be really gripey about this though because I'm sick.  

Edited by Katreyn, 18 November 2012 - 06:49 PM.

[ScoutMATH]

Point is that A.NET didn't stick to their manifesto/philosophy, changed their words in span of just few months. I would not wonder if suddenly they say, "Guild Wars 2 will now have monthly subscription". This is not far from happening.

the issue is not adding better stat items in game. the issue is that the maker of the game doesn't stick to their guns, has no word of honor and loves *ing up shit,

To be on topic, the Book of Secrets zerker back slot will cost you 80-90gold to craft. that's *ed up.

Edited by ScoutMATH, 18 November 2012 - 07:34 PM.

[Corvindi]

JimC, on 18 November 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

Anyone who thinks this kind of power increase is not MANDATORY to be at all competitive in game is DELUDED. All future PvE content will be balanced on this growing power creep. No amount of skill can possible bridge a future 38% power shift. I used Backstab numbers since, this will be the skill that shows how catastrophic this change will be, however changing the skill coefficient for the damage does not change the % increase, just the numbers. I dont think I need to explain the damage a 17k backstab followed by 10k heart seekers will cause. This doesn't even count the 5k mug, 2k lighting bolt and "nerfed" 5k c&d, nor the stun/immobilize/poison/etc. I fully admit the numbers below are a best case for this Thief in WvW vs an exotic geared lvl 80 light armour character (not that it is all that difficult to manufacture such a case). Game design also must account for the extreme corner case still being fun to play against.

This comparison is for a popular 25/30/0/0/15 back stab build in berserker gear, food, runes, etc. It assumes ascended armour/weapons will have the equivalent rune upgrade slot and they increase in stat budget the same amount the rings/backslot did.

Add in that ascended equipment looks to be expensive to the tune of 60g+ / slot in addition to the dungeon runs for bound tokens...

Exotic Current Best Full Ascended/Infused
Base Damage 5,633 5,703 6,454
Crit Damage 13,012 13,516 16,717
Crit Chance 71 72 76
Average 9,259 9,771 12,779
Increase 0 512 3,521
% Better 0 6 38

That difference is huge and apt to grow larger.

[ToySoldier]

Hector, on 18 November 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

ASB.4295 in the frankenthread at the official forums said:

"A golem named BUY-4373, an NPC named Subdirector Blingg, and a jumping puzzle named Under New Management.
I’m sorry, but those references are too coincidental to just be funny. Thanks for letting us now, ANet.
The acronym for the new dungeon is Flavor of the Month."

So yeah, since I don't want to feel so duped I am going to go ahead and believe that there was a sort of hostile take over within Anet and that the start was when Nexon bought shares and insisted Crystin Cox be put on the team.

Thanks.  I did feel weird about FoTM, and "Under New Management" when I saw those.  Now that I see "BUY-4373" and "Subdirector Blingg", heh, reminds me of .. yes, many companies.  Now I'm hearing "Help us Obi wan kenobi.  You're our only hope."  by one desperate employee.  Ack, ack.

I also remember back when one Everquest staff posted: "The players don't know what they want.  They think they do, but they don't."  When players were upset about gear grind.  They just did not trust the players feedback.

Well, time may tell.  One solution ANet/NCSoft can do now is to make Ascended mats drop with a higher frequency.  Aion did try that after a massive player exit.  But by then it was too little, too late.  Most players never went back.

[Coren]

I'm afraid that future story expansions will require this sort of gear to complete... If that happens I'm going back to LOTRO. maybe have to pay but at least I never feel like im behind.

[Lucas Ashrock]

Hector, on 17 November 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

Just got banned from the official forums. I really haven't done anything there besides comment in the giant thread and I get banned.

I was done with Anet before this but this is just ridiculous.

Sweep it under the rug, Anet. I am sure no one will notice just how much of an extreme grind you just put into the game.

Are you joking? Don't even dare to criticize anything on their official forum, you're allowed just to "I love Anet" "Best event ever" "You're the n.1" or you're banned, we all know it, that's why most after their 7th ban finally got there is something wrong on that forum

Ye, Ascended back mat price is just pathetic. I  don't have even 1/3 of T6 mats needed

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 19 November 2012 - 12:22 PM.

[Lordkrall]

shoesbags, on 19 November 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

This whole mess has left such a sour taste in my mouth. To think I used to defend ANet religiously, only to have them go and pull this kind of garbage on their most loyal fans. They'll go back on 7+ years of their own philosophy just to appease a bunch of inbred shitlords who'll be gone by the end of the month again, anyway. What's next on the chopping block?

You mean those "most loyal fans" that seems to completely ignore all those grinds and things in GW1?  We are quite a few of the "most loyal fans" that have played since release of Prophecies and yet we are not shouting and whining about this. Simply because we actually remember GW1 without the rose-tinted glasses.

[Lucas Ashrock]

Lordkrall, on 19 November 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

You mean those "most loyal fans" that seems to completely ignore all those grinds and things in GW1?  We are quite a few of the "most loyal fans" that have played since release of Prophecies and yet we are not shouting and whining about this. Simply because we actually remember GW1 without the rose-tinted glasses.

We even bough a game sold and went online quite different, a bit bored and done with that gw1 grind noone asked except a small group of players bored of other mmos. Guess? IS the reason WE, gw1 players are with others, angry, posting trash against Anet. At least, as much they keep digging, deleting and banning people, the number of post against them is 90% of the "such of amazing" ones even on their "commercial" forum  

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 19 November 2012 - 12:28 PM.

[Plasticblanket]

Lordkrall, on 19 November 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

You mean those "most loyal fans" that seems to completely ignore all those grinds and things in GW1?  We are quite a few of the "most loyal fans" that have played since release of Prophecies and yet we are not shouting and whining about this. Simply because we actually remember GW1 without the rose-tinted glasses.

Skin grind and gear grind are two completely different things.

[Zippor]

What were you doing in GW1 if you weren't trying to attain something?

[Lordkrall]

Plasticblanket, on 19 November 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

Skin grind and gear grind are two completely different things.

And yet we had both gear grind and title-grind in GW1, that people for some reason seems to forget.

[Plasticblanket]

Lordkrall, on 19 November 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

And yet we had both gear grind and title-grind in GW1, that people for some reason seems to forget.

Titles did not give you an advantage neither did FoW armor.

Your point is .... irrelevant.

Try again bud.

[Lordkrall]

Plasticblanket, on 19 November 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

Titles did not give you an advantage neither did FoW armor.

Your point is .... irrelevant.

Try again bud.

Oh, they didnt?

Lets see:

Lightbringer: +5% damage and 1 damage reduction against Abaddon and his minons per rank

Asura: +7-15 energy in Asura lands
Ebon Vanguard: +Adrenaline gain and armor against Charr (everywhere)
Norn: +60-100 hp in Norn lands
Deldrimor: 7-15 lifesteal against Destroyers (everywhere)

Edited by Lordkrall, 19 November 2012 - 12:35 PM.