1975 replies to this topic

[RedStar]

BlackBoxx, on 19 November 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

They were also a big mistake that ANet said they regretted.  It was part of the reason they wanted to make a new game rather than more campaigns for GW1.  Here they are, making the same mistake in a different form.  Once again, people who do not grind out the new stuff are going to be weaker than those that do.

Part of the reason ? PvE skills weren't in the game when Anet said "Screw GW1, we are making GW2" ...Except if you count LB the 2 LB skills that could only be in use in certain parts of NF...
And I don't remember reading that it was something they regretted. I doubt I missed it because Anet never openly regrets anything, they either turn it around to not regret it, or when it gets too bad they simply change the subject.

[DuskWolf]

tatsuo, on 19 November 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

I remember talking about gear grind in GW2 in these forums about 2 months ago. And I told, that some day Anet would introduce better gear to make you grind even longer. Of course no one believed me and thats normal, because Anet didn't do this on GW1 and told us would not do on GW2 too, but it looked a bit fishy with all this dungeons tokens grind etc.

So finally Anet started doing things I feared. Anet is changing and in a bad way.

You have to understand, Guild Wars 1 was never about necessary grind and exclusive content. And whenever ArenaNet thought that would be a good idea, they listened to their community and quickly backpedalled. What happened was that instead of adding new gear, they did things like adding hard mode to dungeons for challenges, and that worked out really, really well.

They promised us a game based upon that, and because of their reputation, we believed them. Reputation is important. You have to be able to believe some people sometimes. Let me give you an example: Guild Wars 1 wasn't a game about just standing there and trading blows in a really sterile way with a foe. You know 'hey, I swung a sword.' Guild Wars 1 wasn't about that.

Colin Johanson told us in the Manifesto that 'hey, I swung a sword' wouldn't be relevant to GW2 and we believed him. But when I really started playing GW2, I realised that it was just a sterile trading of blows. I did just swing a sword. I did swing it again. That's most of what I did. The foes I fought were really dumb, no better than WoW's AI, and nothing on the brilliant AI of GW1. Now, see, I'd come to GW2 after playing games like ME3, and ME3 has tactical AI (where mobs help each other).

So coming to GW2 and witnessing zerging mobs that never hep each other and never do anythign tactically, and then combat that was as slow as treacle (GW1 was much faster), and doing nothing but 'hey, I swung a sword,' I became quickly depressed. I felt betrayed by them. Because of their reputation, I bought into their dream. But that reputation has now been irreparably damaged.

GW2 is just an unfun grind with slow, unenjoyable combat, and copy-pasted content. This is the anti-thesis of what they promised. So I understand now, and I'm sorry I argued with people like you. The thing is... if I can play my geth in ME3, which has the kinds of truly unique abilities, tactics, and fun combat I wanted from GW2... then why would I want to play GW2? I've abandoned GW2 for ME3.

Screw the charr, I was passionate about them at one point, but I'll just go play my geth instead. I like ME3's tactical combat, I like the smart AI, I like how zippy it feels. And I also like that you don't need to grind for gear to get into excusive content.

All the content of ME3 is open to me from the start. That's something that GW2 promised me but never came through on. See, early on it sounded like they'd have more reverse-scaling stuff so you could go into higher level areas. None of that made it in. There was even talk of having things like a companion AI to make the gameplay feel more tactical. That never made it in. And right now GW2 is more like WoW than GW1.

I actually feel bad about having argued with people in the past, now. Like I said, I believed in their reputation. But that reputation is gone. I see them now as flim-flam men, con artists, and the like. They pulled the wool over my eyes and they won't get the chance again. They would have to do much to show me that any other game carrying the name 'ArenaNet' woud be worthwhile.

So yeah, I'm sorry that I disbelieved people like you. I just found the lore and the world intoxicating, at least in the books (not in the game, the game just... completely ruins that potential to be good), and I really, really wanted to believe in their reputation. I look like a bit of an idiot now, I get that.

Edited by DuskWolf, 19 November 2012 - 07:28 PM.

[Benalow]

Okay, after reading through quite a bit of this I can reaffirm a few things.

1) In some sense we now have a reason to grind for enhanced stats, which affect game play INSTEAD of ascetics. This is hypocritical by A-Net to do so.

2) People bringing up the argument that it's only for PvE progression in Fractals. By adding stats regardless if it's mostly for a single dungeon is irrelevant, because those stats will affect everything under it as well.

3) Arena Net could have side stepped by still being able to add Infusion to rings/backpacks etc. to resist agony. Agony could be stacked in the Tier 1 Tier 2 and Tier 3 just fine. Increasing drop rates for exotics and Fractals weapon skins.

That way by simply adding Agony to that single instance lets you get Infusion for that single instance to get super rare weapon skins, without affecting anything else. Adding Agony and Infusion is an interesting mechanic to say the least, but it should stop at that. But what they did by adding stats to items that are grindy to get kind of reminds me of another MMO doesn't it?

Edited by Benalow, 19 November 2012 - 07:37 PM.

[Vexies]

Quote

kind of reminds me of another MMO doesn't it?

Except that this one is just as good and in some ways better and .. its free lol so yeah who cares.

Whats done is done, its not getting reversed and it remains to be seen whether or not more gets implemented later (as in additional tiers) but you know what? by then anyone who cared will have left and those of us enjoying the game, that bought it because its a brilliantly done game with great content and no monthly, and DIDNT buy into the BS or try to elevate it into some sort of religion will not care and will still be playing.

Seriously get over it already.  You have a fantastic game that provides more value for 60 bucks than ANY OTHER mmo on the market today for free. Oh noes they added new stats!! lol

[Benalow]

Vexies, on 19 November 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

Except that this one is just as good and in some ways better and .. its free lol so yeah who cares.

Whats done is done, its not getting reversed and it remains to be seen whether or not more gets implemented later (as in additional tiers) but you know what? by then anyone who cared will have left and those of us enjoying the game, that bought it because its a brilliantly done game with great content and no monthly, and DIDNT buy into the BS or try to elevate it into some sort of religion will not care and will still be playing.

Seriously get over it already.  You have a fantastic game that provides more value for 60 bucks than ANY OTHER mmo on the market today for free. Oh noes they added new stats!! lol

Vexies right? Lemme put this in a way that you might be able to understand.

Ain't a thang that's been did, that can't be undid. Folks trippin' because A-Net be blowin' smoke up d'ey arse.

I still play the game, because it is really awesome. Sure A-Net being hypocritical is annoying and quite frankly a little disappointing, BUT it won't stop me from playing the game. I was merely pitching a suggestion that could altogether forgo this argument in the first place. I understand you're lost in the cornfields of Middle America, but you could be less passive aggressive to people for speaking their opinion. Jus' sayin'

[Lightingbird]

I have every intention to play this game casually for the WvW.  I have to admit the recent quests from the event were pretty cool.  Anyway, I fully support a new set of gear.  Mainly because I'm in a full set of exotics currently and I'd love the idea of trying to get something better.  Especially with legendary gear being nothing more than eye candy in some cases.

[Vexies]

Quote

Vexies right? Lemme put this in a way that you might be able to understand.

your right no doubt.  I do understand why people would be upset but I think there are some that take it way to far.  Your first mistake is buying into the hype of any game.  I do believe that Anet is passionate about there game. I do believe that they care and put a ass ton of work into it but in the end they are a business and MMO's are a living breathing thing that changes to meet market demand.

We may not always like it and your right to play what you enjoy but I am amazed at how many people seem to have elevated them to such a degree only to get so disappointed.

[Benalow]

Vexies, on 19 November 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

your right no doubt.  I do understand why people would be upset but I think there are some that take it way to far.  Your first mistake is buying into the hype of any game.  I do believe that Anet is passionate about there game. I do believe that they care and put a ass ton of work into it but in the end they are a business and MMO's are a living breathing thing that changes to meet market demand.

We may not always like it and your right to play what you enjoy but I am amazed at how many people seem to have elevated them to such a degree only to get so disappointed.

That's the world we live in. Everyone feels like they are self entitled to anything for some price. And unfortunately for those people, money doesn't provide that kind of power. I understand why Arena Net did it, I just think they could have gotten the same result in a way no one would mind or complain about. I believe GW2 is by far and away the best MMO put out, it's a hell of a time whenever I jump in.

People who stop playing a game for a single mechanic probably didn't like the game that much to begin with, but hey no skin off my nose!

[LethoOfGulet]

The idea that Ascended are meant to be people's "pit stops of progression" on their grindy road towards their Legendary is horribly flawed, as it has a false premise: the premise being that the new gear tier won't lengthen the grind instead

Legendary items require pretty much every resource you can get in this game, and a monstrous pile of them no less. If Ascended can be gained by any way that uses these same resources required for Legendaries, the grind will become longer.

This means that in order for Ascended to not be something that affects Legendary grind in a bad way, it needs to be either Soul/Accountbound On Acquire random drop or quest reward, because doing these things won't eat up resources. Trading Post, Mystic Forge and crafting do exactly that, and using these methods push the Legendary further away.

[Espritdumort]

I gave it a chance, I played the fractals, got to level 6 difficulty.

I will still play them.

But, at this point Ascended gear might as well be Legendary to me, maybe even beyond.  I can play this game, slowly accumulate gold, doing whatever I please.  In a year, I'll have enough to afford a Legendary.  I don't see myself grinding 9 random mini dungeons a couple hundred times.

Give us a karma merchant for the armor, like exotics, please.  Leave the grind to the nice skins.

Edited by Espritdumort, 19 November 2012 - 11:37 PM.

[Corvindi]

Espritdumort, on 19 November 2012 - 11:34 PM, said:

I gave it a chance, I played the fractals, got to level 6 difficulty.

I will still play them.

But, at this point Ascended gear might as well be Legendary to me, maybe even beyond.  I can play this game, slowly accumulate gold, doing whatever I please.  In a year, I'll have enough to afford a Legendary.  I don't see myself grinding 9 random mini dungeons a couple hundred times.

Give us a karma merchant for the armor, like exotics, please.  Leave the grind to the nice skins.

An elegant solution.  One I'd be very happy with, since you can get Karma in a variety of ways.  Even if it took me as long to get Ascended as a dungeon runner who also took the time to grind every mat rather than buy any of it off the TP, this would be much better than the current situation.

But they would need to implement this quick, because at this point those of us who don't run dungeons will be playing catch-up to those that do, and in a PvP situation, no one wants to be playing catch-up.

[Ivan The Legend]

To be honest, they shoulda just introduced more exotic skins/nicer exotic skins. The new, and possibly nicer, skins would bridge the gap between exotics and legendaries since their price would be set according to how well they look, as is the case with current exotics. And hell, make more mystic forge recipes for exotics, but there isnt a need to create a whole new tier of weapons. In my opinion Anet should ditch this idea while they still can or at least contain it to accessories.

The path im seeing it go down will make it much longer to obtain legendaries because the general population will need to invest money and materials to obtain ascended armor first and this makes all the hard work current people have done to acquire their exotics mean nothing.

[Lordkrall]

Ivan The Legend, on 20 November 2012 - 07:56 AM, said:

To be honest, they shoulda just introduced more exotic skins/nicer exotic skins. The new, and possibly nicer, skins would bridge the gap between exotics and legendaries since their price would be set according to how well they look, as is the case with current exotics. And hell, make more mystic forge recipes for exotics, but there isnt a need to create a whole new tier of weapons. In my opinion Anet should ditch this idea while they still can or at least contain it to accessories.

The path im seeing it go down will make it much longer to obtain legendaries because the general population will need to invest money and materials to obtain ascended armor first and this makes all the hard work current people have done to acquire their exotics mean nothing.

Because everything will look cool to everyone right?
Whether something looks good or not is extremely subjective.

I find several nice looking Exotics that goes for less than a gold and yet there are really ugly ones that go for 10.

[Arquenya]

Why I don't want ascended/legendary items with better stats than exotic:

• It created gear differences and subsequent picky behaviour. "Don't have ascended gear? You're not welcome in my team!" The worst thing is that it may be understandable, too, because who wants wipes and repair costs? In GW infusion was a quick Iron Mines run, now it's a long grind.
  
  
• Fine transmutation stones. To get better - and for some content neccessary - gear I need to get new items, the looks of which I may greatly dislike. So that means additional gold grind or using RL Cash shop to get gems - that are payed for anyway. In a way, better gear also is a stealth update of the gem store. Instead of "cosmetic only" it's now reversed to "grind for ugly gear just for stats" and transmute it to the good look that you already have.
  
  
• I bought the game on the premise that "skill, not gear" would be the main factor. Now this simply isn't true anymore. Without resist gear I'm simply a lot more squishy than people with "infused" gear.  Even though I may be a better, more skillful player. It's just like WoW.
  
  
• Where storyline mode unlocks content account-wide, I don't get account-wide gear for completing FOTW instances. Meaning that every single character must go through the same gear grind.

I think that these things alone are already enough arguments to get rid of the whole tier stuff.

Edited by Arquenya, 20 November 2012 - 11:27 AM.

[Lordkrall]

1) You mean just like with exotics? Oh wait..

2) Oh no a company tries to get money outrageous! You don't NEED to have a specific look on your gear. You WANT to have a specific look on your gear.

3) In 0,1% of the game that might be true (there is btw only a single boss in the whole instance that does give unavoidable Agony, so a great player could still do it without infusion)

[Segraine]

I was already leaning away from the game. This change has really turned me off. I enjoyed the plateau and focus on character development in GW1. I had my fill of gear progression from my Diablo 2 days and decided not to go back. I wasted far too much time trying to get items instead of actually playing.  GW2 felt off since launch; there is too little strategy and too much damage focus. Now with another tier of gear needed to be gained before reaching the plateau, I think may take a hiatus.

I don't mind gear progression if it is easy to obtain each tier. I enjoy getting new gear in the old sandbox RPGs. But in those games you didn't have to random element or the carrot-on-the-stick method. You simply opened a treasure chest and the armor piece was always there for you.  The challenge came from finding and reaching that chest.

GW1's method of handling gear was better. Tiers should only be in the skins, not the stats. The title-grinding GW1 had was mostly optional except for a few poor ideas like Lightbringer.

[Illein]

So, since this is still all the rage - anyone actually been to spheres of fractals yet that actually REQUIRE Agony Resistence?

I've only played up to 13 so far and it's still completely unnecessary. 80% of the time you can avoid it, if you can't - you usually don't die to it either.

So? Any 20+ out there who can comment on it?

Edited by Illein, 20 November 2012 - 04:06 PM.

[Helistin]

Next stop in the Nexon masterplan. Infusion's are available in the cash shop for 'nominal' fee.

True or false?

[tatsuo]

DuskWolf, on 19 November 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

You have to understand, Guild Wars 1 was never about necessary grind and exclusive content. And whenever ArenaNet thought that would be a good idea, they listened to their community and quickly backpedalled. What happened was that instead of adding new gear, they did things like adding hard mode to dungeons for challenges, and that worked out really, really well.

They promised us a game based upon that, and because of their reputation, we believed them. Reputation is important. You have to be able to believe some people sometimes. Let me give you an example: Guild Wars 1 wasn't a game about just standing there and trading blows in a really sterile way with a foe. You know 'hey, I swung a sword.' Guild Wars 1 wasn't about that.

Colin Johanson told us in the Manifesto that 'hey, I swung a sword' wouldn't be relevant to GW2 and we believed him. But when I really started playing GW2, I realised that it was just a sterile trading of blows. I did just swing a sword. I did swing it again. That's most of what I did. The foes I fought were really dumb, no better than WoW's AI, and nothing on the brilliant AI of GW1. Now, see, I'd come to GW2 after playing games like ME3, and ME3 has tactical AI (where mobs help each other).

So coming to GW2 and witnessing zerging mobs that never hep each other and never do anythign tactically, and then combat that was as slow as treacle (GW1 was much faster), and doing nothing but 'hey, I swung a sword,' I became quickly depressed. I felt betrayed by them. Because of their reputation, I bought into their dream. But that reputation has now been irreparably damaged.

GW2 is just an unfun grind with slow, unenjoyable combat, and copy-pasted content. This is the anti-thesis of what they promised. So I understand now, and I'm sorry I argued with people like you. The thing is... if I can play my geth in ME3, which has the kinds of truly unique abilities, tactics, and fun combat I wanted from GW2... then why would I want to play GW2? I've abandoned GW2 for ME3.

Screw the charr, I was passionate about them at one point, but I'll just go play my geth instead. I like ME3's tactical combat, I like the smart AI, I like how zippy it feels. And I also like that you don't need to grind for gear to get into excusive content.

All the content of ME3 is open to me from the start. That's something that GW2 promised me but never came through on. See, early on it sounded like they'd have more reverse-scaling stuff so you could go into higher level areas. None of that made it in. There was even talk of having things like a companion AI to make the gameplay feel more tactical. That never made it in. And right now GW2 is more like WoW than GW1.

I actually feel bad about having argued with people in the past, now. Like I said, I believed in their reputation. But that reputation is gone. I see them now as flim-flam men, con artists, and the like. They pulled the wool over my eyes and they won't get the chance again. They would have to do much to show me that any other game carrying the name 'ArenaNet' woud be worthwhile.

So yeah, I'm sorry that I disbelieved people like you. I just found the lore and the world intoxicating, at least in the books (not in the game, the game just... completely ruins that potential to be good), and I really, really wanted to believe in their reputation. I look like a bit of an idiot now, I get that.

Well I perfectly understand you why you believed in Anet. There was nothing wrong about them in a past and GW2 was promoted as innovation to MMOs. Actually I believed in Anet too even though I didn't even play GW1. But when I saw how much grind in GW2 there is already I stopped believing their talks that fans wanted to hear.

Its a strange thing, but I suppose it happens to every developer (intentionally or not). When developer is not well known (or not at least very famous), it tries hard, very hard to create something really good.
But just when it gets famous and everyone seems to start liking what that developer is doing, he starts doing the opposite of what he told to fans.
Such developers get lazy (also intentionally or not (because of investor or something else), but that does not matter). So they start implementing things that are faster to create, but gets boring very fast (like new gear to grind for) and stop innovating.

So I suppose its almost impossible to get a game that is promised. If it won't get much attention, then developers won't get funds to create a game, if it gets too much attention, then developer stops caring at what he said and tries to milk cash cow as long as he can.

I would say the best example would be Blizzard. I hope Anet won't go this way, but when they start doing the opposite of what they promised, games future does not look good.

Edited by tatsuo, 20 November 2012 - 04:25 PM.

[Ivan The Legend]

Lordkrall, on 20 November 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

Because everything will look cool to everyone right?
Whether something looks good or not is extremely subjective.

I find several nice looking Exotics that goes for less than a gold and yet there are really ugly ones that go for 10.

Oh yes, i find that to be true as well for me too. However if Anet does introduce a ton of new exotic skins, chances are some of them will occupy the expensive bracket of exotics (10-100g). And there are so many skins they havent introduced, both new designs and throwbacks to gw1 (elemental sword, obsidian blade, clockwork items, etc.).

[Runkleford]

Illein, on 20 November 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

So, since this is still all the rage - anyone actually been to spheres of fractals yet that actually REQUIRE Agony Resistence?

I've only played up to 13 so far and it's still completely unnecessary. 80% of the time you can avoid it, if you can't - you usually don't die to it either.

So? Any 20+ out there who can comment on it?

I haven't gotten to 20+ but I wanted to comment. I'm rather enjoying the dungeon right now because it's providing a fun challenge so far because it's a challenge based on my own "skill" rather than my success depending on the gear doing the mitigating. It's another reason why I think Ascendent gear is unnecessary.

[Illein]

Runkleford, on 20 November 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

I haven't gotten to 20+ but I wanted to comment. I'm rather enjoying the dungeon right now because it's providing a fun challenge so far because it's a challenge based on my own "skill" rather than my success depending on the gear doing the mitigating. It's another reason why I think Ascendent gear is unnecessary.

Oh I absolutely agree. Love the dungeon so far. They should fix the "guaranteed" ascended ring after completing Level10 - but other than that and the Disconnect issue, there are no game breaking bugs at all so far and the encounters are having actual designs, rather than the Tank & Spank we've seen in previous dungeons save for a few notable exceptions. I do hope the Boss mechanics increase farther up the scale to be more on-par with Lupicus when you did him for the first time or something, so far still my favourite boss in the game

And as you say, the fact that you don't need Ascended gear at all, because you can ACTIVELY avoid the mechanics that inflict Agony on you - is great. (save for a couple exceptions, which - as noted earlier, don't kill you in their own right, though. Coupled with other damage sources, it will, of course.)

[Gremlin]

As long as it isn't requirement to get ascended gear before the next tier I have no problems, because its not 2 tiers its simply an either or choice.

I have no intention of going for either until by playing the game normally I find I have gained most of the resources needed.
If that never happens I will get over it.
If they become a requirement to get in a party then I would rather not join that party.

[MazingerZ]

Ascended will be required.  Agony is going to be their difficulty gating mechanism.

[Sieghildr]

DuskWolf, on 19 November 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

Screw the charr, I was passionate about them at one point, but I'll just go play my geth instead. I like ME3's tactical combat, I like the smart AI, I like how zippy it feels. And I also like that you don't need to grind for gear to get into excusive content.

You don't need to grind for gear, but you do still need to grind for exclusive content. Unless something has changed many races/classes combos are locked and only unlocked through buying kits. I leveled 2 MP chars to 20 and only managed to unlock 2 new race/class combos. It seems to me a system designed around providing easy access to those willing to microtransact. If you aren't it seems pretty grindy to get to where you want.

Edited by Sieghildr, 20 November 2012 - 09:13 PM.

[Zippor]

Illein, on 20 November 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

I do hope the Boss mechanics increase farther up the scale to be more on-par with Lupicus when you did him for the first time or something, so far still my favourite boss in the game

They certainly do, some of them in an engaging way. They're nothing major or magnificent, but usually a pleasant surprise.

[Illein]

MazingerZ, on 20 November 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

Ascended will be required.  Agony is going to be their difficulty gating mechanism.

Didn't ask for what people read in their fish-intestines, but to hear from people who are actually hitting that gating mechanism you're speaking about, in reality.

[Corvindi]

And the massive thread on the official forum got shut down.  Guess that's how they're going to deal with their unhappy customers over this issue.

[Uhhsam]

Perhaps the unhappy customers were voicing their concerns with less maturity than was expected.  It wouldn't surprise me.

[Corvindi]

Uhhsam, on 21 November 2012 - 01:21 AM, said:

Perhaps the unhappy customers were voicing their concerns with less maturity than was expected.  It wouldn't surprise me.

Your insinuation is most amusing, given that it was the defenders of this gear who were ruder by far.  But it is difficult to argue a weaker position, so I understand.  The anti-Ascended crowd had so many dev quotes backing up the prior version of the game over this current one that it was hard to keep track of them all.

Still, it's just amusement, as I said in another thread.  Time to vote with wallet, mouth means nothing.

Edited by Corvindi, 21 November 2012 - 02:17 AM.