1975 replies to this topic

[DOSGAMES]

Jentari, on 13 November 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

You are wrong.  The Lightbringer title had no effect on any type of pvp.  The increase in stats that the items have will give those people with those items an overall increase in wvw.

Again its not just about the 1% increase.  It's about the fact that Anet said al along that they would have no gear treadmills.  Exotic was the best, now a new set is coming out that is better and per Anets blog they planned for this and plan for more in the future.  If they keep putting out more gear with better stats it makes it a treadmill regardless of how it is obtained.

WvW is so casual, I doubt 1% means anything when you have a 30 person zerg banging on a door.

[Xellial]

Own Age Myname, on 13 November 2012 - 06:04 AM, said:

(one more thing)

It's actually around a 4% increase, add that in eventually more pieces, lets say I have a full set: I'm now ~26% better with a full set compared to a none full set. I may be wrong with my math, as tired and don't care to check if this is the right way to do it so I'm just adding %'s together, but you get my point; it adds up. Add in more tiers...this is an ugly mess that we call a gear treadmill.

My feelings are this - The 1-2% is a slap in the face, but that's not the WHOLE problem. The problem is having to either have multiple sets of infusion armor, or swapping the infusions to do new dungeons, the problem is people not having or wanting to do other dungeons because they don't get fancy ascended items.

The problem is they went against their Manifesto.

[Galandil]

Tellia, on 13 November 2012 - 05:49 AM, said:

It's actually around a 4% increase, add that in eventually more pieces, lets say I have a full set: I'm now ~26% better with a full set compared to a none full set. I may be wrong with my math, as tired and don't care to check if this is the right way to do it so I'm just adding %'s together, but you get my point; it adds up. Add in more tiers...this is an ugly mess that we call a gear treadmill.

Yes, you're wrong: the increase is 8% (7.936% to be more precise). I myself posted on the official forums, I can't believe that anet made such an idiotic move.

Blablabla manifesto blablabla no gear treadmill blablabla -> random pve drones who call themselves "hardcore" whines because GW2 is not a random WoW clone -> new tier! -> manifesto down the drain -> enrage most of the actual population of players of GW2.

Edited by Galandil, 13 November 2012 - 06:11 AM.

[Doki20]

karekiz, on 12 November 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

Player A:  Hey you guys mind fixing the bugged dungeons?
ANet: Lolz - we got it in a upcomming patch.  Trust us.  We got this
Weeks go by with no result

Player A: Hey...since you can't fix major dungeons, why not take the ones that work and add better rewards to them to make them unique?
ANet: Lolz we got that in a new patch....trust us.  Ohh by the way we made SE path 1 tougher and bugged it even more kthxbye.  Thats the important part.  Fix it? lol we will have to fix it in an upcoming patch!
Weeks go by
...

Fixed your text. It was already stated by a dev about.. more than a month ago that grenadiers had a couple of additional 0-s or so at the end of their hp than it was intended... They promised a fix for THAT by that time as well..I personally thought that changing a single number (which would have fixed the path, mind you as the only problem was that each of the grenadiers had as much hp as the bosses themselves) is not that hard..

Lordkrall, on 12 November 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

...
As for Martins reaction: Those are from his PRIVATE account. Which is clearly stated in his profile.
As a private user he has every right to react however he wants to peoples silly rage.

Well.. that's true he didn't go overboard with it like Jay Wilson (who actually pretty much insulted the leader of the development team of Diablo 2 because he dared to say that he wouldn't have made D3 in the same manner as JW) and I think there was even a Bioware incident like that as well.. but still, he is a famous face for the company he works for and that means even outside of work hours, he has to act as the face of that company since the public will do so think that.

DOSGAMES, on 13 November 2012 - 06:02 AM, said:

The change is really not that much different than the "Lightbringer" title in Nightfall. People tend to wield their outrage like a weapon. They want to harm Anet with their bad PR. They will kick, scream, and stomp their feet until they get what they want. They speak for themselves, not for the community as a whole.

Well.. the Lighbringer title was only useful in like..half a dozen zones including DoA (as a single one). While on the other hand, the Ascended gear is useful anywhere, as the +stats won't magically disappear from it, the only part of them which is exclusive to the new dungeon is the "infusion stat".

The former also didn't trivialize your gear, making you throw out everything you have obtained so far while sooner or later, the currently obtained dungeon and MF exotics will be subpar. (and you will have to waste tons of fine trans stones if you want to keep the look of your previous gear, so based on that, I doubt that the ascended look would be any good to further increase the sales. Otherwise, the crafted exotics wouldn't look terrible as they are..)

Edited by Doki20, 13 November 2012 - 06:20 AM.

[Jentari]

DOSGAMES, on 13 November 2012 - 06:09 AM, said:

WvW is so casual, I doubt 1% means anything when you have a 30 person zerg banging on a door.

Again you miss the point.  It isnt about the increase in stats, its about the fact we had been told all along there would be NO gear treadmill and they now have started it.  They admit to planning this and even comment on how they plan to continue this in the future.

So get off of your it's only 1%, makes no difference statements and start seeing it from the point of a lot of the people commenting about this.

[Ellipsis]

Jackiepro, on 13 November 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:

Anyways the point about 1% then 2% then 3% is moot, thats a very large generalization to be making with very little evidence. Lindsey stated more gear will come, but you dont know with what degree of power, and if they intend to do this again in the future. Sure you can speculate, but thats all it is, speculation.

From the blog:

"Adding item progression is a delicate process normally undertaken in an expansion, but we feel it’s important to strive to satisfy the basic needs of our players sooner rather than later. We have always worked hard to create a sense of satisfying progression rather than gear grind and this new item progression initiative is no exception. By adding challenging new combat mechanics to end-game content and ways to mitigate those mechanics through gear progression for high-end players, we can add personal progression without making the game feel like an endless treadmill of gear that is just out of your reach.

...

In November we’ll unveil the first Ascended items. This new rarity type falls between Exotic and Legendary on the spectrum of rarity and has slightly higher stats than Exotics."

They will be repeating the same process for legendary gear as well. It's not speculation.

[Strawberry Nubcake]

DOSGAMES, on 13 November 2012 - 06:02 AM, said:

The change is really not that much different than the "Lightbringer" title in Nightfall. People tend to wield their outrage like a weapon. They want to harm Anet with their bad PR. They will kick, scream, and stomp their feet until they get what they want. They speak for themselves, not for the community as a whole.

Interesting.  Isn't kicking, screaming and stomping what caused this little situation we have right now?  Seems like it worked pretty well for the bored "uber hardcores" ... I don't see why the rest of us can't try it as well!  

[DOSGAMES]

Strawberry Nubcake, on 13 November 2012 - 06:15 AM, said:

Interesting.  Isn't kicking, screaming and stomping what caused this little situation we have right now?  Seems like it worked pretty well for the bored "uber hardcores" ... I don't see why the rest of us can't try it as well!  

Well, people who complained about the lack of end-game actually experienced it. People were raging here before they even knew what they were raging about.

[Tellia]

Galandil, on 13 November 2012 - 06:10 AM, said:

Yes, you're wrong: the increase is 8% (7.936% to be more precise).

yea i know. i didnt notice the gem stat difference when i said 4.2%. in haste i only saw the 48-50 difference and went off of that.

[Jackiepro]

Ellipsis, on 13 November 2012 - 06:15 AM, said:

They will be repeating the same process for legendary gear as well. It's not speculation.

No? legendary gear is considered above exotic in the rarity spectrum as they are right now, yet the stats are equivalent. The blog refers to the color coding in which legendary is simply the rarest type of quality in the game, not necessarily better stats, as we see right now with current legendaries being on par with exotics.

So it is still speculation.

[Galandil]

Tellia, on 13 November 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

yea i know. i didnt notice the gem stat difference when i said 4.2%. in haste i only saw the 48-50 difference and went off of that.

I'm sorry, I didn't want to be harsh with you. It's just that I'm completely MAD after I found out the introduction of this new tier.

Jackiepro, on 13 November 2012 - 06:22 AM, said:

No? legendary gear is considered above exotic in the rarity spectrum as they are right now, yet the stats are equivalent. The blog refers to the color coding in which legendary is simply the rarest type of quality in the game, not necessarily better stats, as we see right now with current legendaries being on par with exotics.

So it is still speculation.

anet stated that the legendary weapons will see their stats raised when they'll introduce ascended type weapons to be on par with the latter.

[Featherman]

Galandil, on 13 November 2012 - 06:10 AM, said:

Yes, you're wrong: the increase is 8% (7.936% to be more precise). I myself posted on the official forums, I can't believe that anet made such an idiotic move.

Blablabla manifesto blablabla no gear treadmill blablabla -> random pve drones who call themselves "hardcore" whines because GW2 is not a random WoW clone -> new tier! -> manifesto down the drain -> enrage most of the actual population of players of GW2.

Don't forget that Power/Precision/Crit compound off of eachother so the burst damage from glass cannon builds will be even higher. If (and I emphasize the if) they continue to go down this path it's going to overpower the mooks that run around in glass cannon builds and make it even easier for them to burst down leveled and undergeared characters. I'm hopeful they're going to stop at this tier because anyone with the ability to do basic math can tell you that gear treads will make WvW an even more gated activity for casuals, further crippling the already diminishing activity rates.

DOSGAMES, on 13 November 2012 - 06:18 AM, said:

Well, people who complained about the lack of end-game actually experienced it. People were raging here before they even knew what they were raging about.

Blanket statements only serve to trivialize the issue. People were weary that the new tier gear would go against the stated manifesto, their reason for playing the game. The reaction after the blog post on the Ascended items  was only natural. As for myself, I could be angrier, but I'm far more disappointed than I am angry. And I'm sure some others feel the same way.

Edited by Featherman, 13 November 2012 - 08:39 AM.

[Runkleford]

Sorry but this looks to be the start of the "treadmill". It's only been less than 3 months and we're already getting gear progression. It matters very little how small the percentage improvement is, it's the accumulation of power over time that's the problem. That's why it's called power creep.

This is not what I wanted when I bought the game. I played GW1 for 7 years just fine with static armor sets, I'm one of many players who don't need nor want gear treadmills.

[Galandil]

DOSGAMES, on 13 November 2012 - 06:22 AM, said:

I really don't think these changes are that dramatic. Again, they did a very similar thing with the "Lightbringer" title in Nightfall. Yes, the minor stat boosts will persist into WvW and PvE but, I really don't think the difference qualifies as a "treadmill".

I don't think WoW people are going to be like "Oh, Anet added a ring and a backpiece with better stats! I'm gonna log on now" Anet did this for the better of the game.

No, anet just did this because... because... well, because they don't understand (anymore) what means "listening to the players". They just listened to the aforementioned wow-style players who wanted "progression".

And regarding the difference, it's HUGE, +8% on the stats when an ascended set will be complete against an exotic one. And what about crafting professions? They'll be completely useless if they don't add ascended recipes, and even if they will, it will be MORE grinding to craft a complete set. Or go in a dungeon. Whatever.

So much for the "no grinding" part of the manifesto.

[Jackiepro]

Galandil, on 13 November 2012 - 06:25 AM, said:

anet stated that the legendary weapons will see their stats raised when they'll introduce ascended type weapons to be on par with the latter.

Right, they will update the legendary weapons to be on par with ascended gear, because it wouldnt make sense for the highest grade of rarity to be inferior stat wise. But nowhere did it say that legendary weapons will exceed the stats of ascended gear, so there is no tier of stats above ascended gear that has been announced. So any claims of a future gear grind are speculation, which was my original point.

I do agree it is now more likely that a gear treadmill may begin, but I cant claim it with certainty nor can anyone else.

Edited by Jackiepro, 13 November 2012 - 06:30 AM.

[Galandil]

Featherman, on 13 November 2012 - 06:27 AM, said:

Don't forget that Power/Precision/Crit compount off of eachother so the burst damage from glass cannon builds will be even higher. If (and I emphasize the if) they continue to go down this path it's going to overpower the mooks that run around in glass cannon builds and make them even easier for them to burst down leveled and undergeared characters. I'm hopeful they're going to stop at this tier because with the ability to do basic math can tell you that gear treads will make WvW an even more gated activity for casuals, further crippling the already diminishing activity rates.

Yes I know. And just think IF the ascended weapons will have a higher damage range and/or ascended armor pieces will have a higher defense rating. They will amplify even more the difference between exotic and ascended.

Not to mention that they think about a new tier, while not a single * was given about actual different set of bonuses for the exotics (condition damage: go with power/vitality or suck it up if you want to craft it, or go with toughness and grind it in a dungeon).

Jackiepro, on 13 November 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

Right, they will update the legendary weapons to be on par with ascended gear, because it wouldnt make sense for the highest grade of rarity to be inferior stat wise. But nowhere did it say that legendary weapons will exceed the stats of ascended gear, so there is no tier of stats above ascended gear that has been announced. So any claims of a future gear grind are speculation, which was my original point.

I do agree it is now more likely that a gear treadmill may begin, but I cant claim it with certainty nor can anyone else.

Oh, come on. After less than 3 months they announce and introduce a new top tier, and you honestly believe that they'll not do that again in the upcoming months, of course as soon as the grinding players will finish to acquire all the ascended set? You know that it's naive to think that they won't do it.

[Lopez]

Fun thought: This makes pets even worse. They don't scale with stats.

[deitiesforce]

watch them raise the max level to 100 and then....Get new 100 level ascended armor and legendary...i will just lol for now

[Corvindi]

Lopez, on 13 November 2012 - 06:35 AM, said:

Fun thought: This makes pets even worse. They don't scale with stats.

Don't engineers have the same problem?

[Princess Fatora]

Well, there's two ways now.

1)The immature way: Stick around and keep complaining, like the people that kept crying about "Lack of progression"
2)The mature way: Leave and just find another game.

I picked 2, just ordered myself some nice games from play-asia. T'is my last post in here. I won't ask for a refund, since hey, I got more than enough fun for my bucks. I'm not married to GW2, after all, so off I go. Enjoy your fix for the number additiction, statgrinders. Just make sure you keep buying gems, because the game will need your support with the loss of people like me. You need to offset this, if you want to keep the game afloat.

[Arewn]

So far as the stat % increase for ascended gear, taking the pictures of the rings on the blog as an base:
Ascended ring stat total (discounting magic find): 50+50+18+18=136
Exotic ring stat total (discounting magic find): 48+48+15+15= 126
10 extra attribute points added going from Exotic to Ascended
Percent increase from Exotic to Ascended 10/126x100=7.9365
A roughly 8%~ increase (as Galandil said above).

This does not add up for each piece of gear since we're talking in percentages, a ratio (having 2 ascended rings does NOT mean you have 16% higher stats) and while different gear slots have different stat totals allocated to them, the increase ratios moving between rarities remains.
Of note, this does NOT mean having the 3 Ascended item slots filled from this patch will give an 8% increase in total stats. It will be an 8% total stat increase WHEN you are wearing a full set of Ascended gear (which won't be for quiet some time)

I apologize as one of those spreading the 1% number around, I hastily calculated it and misread the results the first time around.


I'm considerably less comfortable with this higher number, however so long as this remains the only new rarity/power tier they add, it shouldn't be a problem nor does it (it does NOT)constitute a gear treadmill.
You can really look at this as a new game teething problem. "Ok we launched with 6 item rarities, but we mis-paced their acquisition. As it turns out we need a 7th rarity to bridge to the highest and to function with the agony mechanic and stat".
My only problem is why add the extra rarity, the items skins could have been exotic and the infusions for anti-agony could have been applied to exotic. I can only assume it was to appease those wanting more gear progression.

[Lopez]

I got a little suspicious and decided to check out NCSoft's earnings report to see if that could play any role in all of this. It turns out ArenaNet is in the red big time compared to other subsidiaries.

[Arewn]

Princess Fatora, on 13 November 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

Well, there's two ways now.

1)The immature way: Stick around and keep complaining, like the people that kept crying about "Lack of progression"
2)The mature way: Leave and just find another game.

I picked 2, just ordered myself some nice games from play-asia. T'is my last post in here. I won't ask for a refund, since hey, I got more than enough fun for my bucks. I'm not married to GW2, after all, so off I go. Enjoy your fix for the number additiction, statgrinders. Just make sure you keep buying gems, because the game will need your support with the loss of people like me. You need to offset this, if you want to keep the game afloat.

There's a third option: be mature and reasonable.

The thing isn't even out yet, most of the new content doesn't require Ascended gear, and the gear itself is only netting you some 50 or so extra attribute points, hardly game ruining.

Try it, make your judgement. If you find yourself needing against your will to get the three ascended gear slot upgrades in order to enjoy the game, and are required to grind far more floors of this new dungeon then you want to in order to do so, then understandable. Otherwise, there's a lot more content in this patch then a floored dungeon for the hardcore crowd to knock their heads against.

[Corvindi]

Option #4:  Delete CC info from Black Lion Trading Co but keep playing for as long as I enjoy the game I already bought and paid for.  That way I get more for my dollar, at least until something else appealing comes along to take up my extra time.

Edited by Corvindi, 13 November 2012 - 06:58 AM.

[Ritualist]

Arewn, on 13 November 2012 - 06:53 AM, said:

There's a third option: be mature and reasonable.

The thing isn't even out yet, most of the new content doesn't require Ascended gear, and the gear itself is only netting you some 50 or so extra attribute points, hardly game ruining.

Try it, make your judgement. If you find yourself needing against your will to get the three ascended gear slot upgrades in order to enjoy the game, and are required to grind far more floors of this new dungeon then you want to in order to do so, then understandable. Otherwise, there's a lot more content in this patch then a floored dungeon for the hardcore crowd to knock their heads against.

The problem here is that GW2 already had way too much vertical progression for my taste. So, this isn't turning something that is amazing into something less amazing - it's turning something that was stupidly shitty into something that is even shittier.
I am sorry, the game isn't good enough for A.Net to be able to afford to shit all over their core design rules.

Edited by Protoss, 13 November 2012 - 06:59 AM.

[Alleji]

Well, now that the info is out, it is after all exactly what I thought it would be: new more powerful items to grind every patch to replace what you got before the patch, because it's outdated now. It seems my faith in Anet has been misplaced after all. But hey, it's only doing a 180-turn on probably the single most important idea behind your game. You don't just do something like that, right? Right? Well, shit, I guess you do.

Doesn't matter that the stat increase is small - it's still strictly better than existing options. This isn't even the good WoW, this is a shitty treadmill wrath/cata WoW model. Without the raids.

Why couldn't they just make new exotics with the infusion slot that mitigated this agony condition and leave everything else the same? Seriously. What the fuck, Anet. Count me out of any future expansions.

[Galandil]

Arewn, there're some problems linked to the new tier.

1) Let's be pragmatic: if, after less than 3 months, they put out a new, more powerful tier, this, as I said before, breaks completely everything thay said in the manifesto prior to launch. Maybe it could be even be used in a class action for false advertising. However, the point is that: they've done it, there's no more any reason to believe they won't do it again in the future.

2) As soon as all the ascended items will be out, the ones with exotic will be at a disadvantage in WvW and *even* in PvE, you'll need at least 1 ascended to do the fractal, and I'm sure elitism will kick in - i.e. "LFM Full Ascended".

3) All the other dungeons will become more and more useless, until they'll put ascended pieces as rewards for tokens. So, in both cases, it will mean that people actually treadmilled (I got the exotic pieces from dungeon X, and now I have to do another X runs to get the ascended ones).

4) The ascended tier will actually be available *only* via dungeons, no other ways to obtain it, and we still don't know if they'll be drops (account or soulbound) or given in exchange of tokens. In both cases, you'll NEED to farm a dungeon to get the new tier items. So much for the "do whatever you want to do" - to be on par with the others, you'll need to close yourself in a dng. Exotics, on the other way, could be obtained in various ways (dng, grinding mats to craft them, buying directly from TP, etc.).

So, yes, this new tier is a freakin problem, and a major departure from everything they said before launch. Would you believe a dishonest salesman after he pulls a trick or scam on you? Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...

[deitiesforce]

Anet: "Why are you guys overreacting?"
Us: "You lied to us that's *ing why!"

Haha, nah im kidding....i will still play the game especially with the lost shore stuff coming out. I will judge after i see what's the real deal this weekend.

[karekiz]

I think it is even more insulting they way they choose to "show off" the new items using Magic Find.  Way to "hide" those little extra details.

[RabidusIncendia]

Lopez, on 13 November 2012 - 06:48 AM, said:

I got a little suspicious and decided to check out NCSoft's earnings report to see if that could play any role in all of this. It turns out ArenaNet is in the red big time compared to other subsidiaries.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but I'm pretty sure it said "Overwhelming success" of GW2.  You looked at 3Q and not 2Q right?

Edited by RabidusIncendia, 13 November 2012 - 07:12 AM.