57 replies to this topic

[Snapalope]

People are not getting my point that GS does not have any hard CC.

[glountz]

You're not alone.
Greatsword is not so great.
It lacks CC when you need it. 100B is easily wasted, and it's the skill that makes the greatsword so damaging.
Only saving points for it is its whirlwind which is an average dodge tool.

[Brand]

Wolfgang, on 14 November 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

First I said minor traits [10 arms] bleed on crit - difficult to stack and does negligible damage without condition damage [15 arms] burst skills have 10% increased critical chance? You said yourself GS burst is useless. also I got 14 stacks of might, plus in dungeons you get to 20-25 from your group either way (maybe not in pugs lol).

I did look at your build, I tried it and tested the boon duration and everything to see if it was all the rage. I don't feel like dragging this on any longer because you sound like a GS elitist and its getting off track but I said in context, you rapture about is keeping might stacks and vulnerability up. In dungeons you are constantly dodging, that's when vulnerability and might depreciates, each stack has its own counter.

You need to auto attack to get a bunch of stacks up, then get perfect positioning and timing so that when you 100b you don't get facerolled by the boss. I never said "anything you can do, I can do better," I just don't think its that great in a group and I'll rest my case there.

Well you said that the Minor traits were useless, not useless to MY BUILD. A lot of people have whole builds designed around those Minor traits, so they clearly aren't useless. They are very good for the Warrior class (As I said) perhaps not for my build but that is hardly what I was discussing or what you were saying.

I am not a "Greatsword elitist" I was merely defending my build against your highly theoretical arguments. I know plenty of non-Greatsword builds that work just fine, the ideas you were throwing out just happen to be inferior to my build and many other builds. If you want to say that "It's not that great in a group" you best come to the table with evidence. Many people use the Sonic Boon build or similar and feel that it is a very good well rounded build. Before you go, I'd like you to explain to me how exactly you got a stable 14 stacks of Might. If I go and just hit FGJ + SoR without any other means of might stacking, you get 8, then 11, and then 14 for about 4 seconds, and then it drops. So unless you're using something else to generate might (Which would be against the confines of the argument) I'm going to want to see your testing.

Not to be Obama here but, "What you're saying is simply not true."

[Brand]

Snapalope, on 14 November 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

People are not getting my point that GS does not have any hard CC.

You're right, we have been getting fairly off topic. I would like to say that not everyone in the party has to bring hard CC, Guardians, Engineers and Rangers can all pack a lot of CC from what I've seen.

Just because a weapon doesn't offer much CC doesn't mean it's bad, and doesn't mean it can't be used in a way that supports the team. You can see this clearly in my Sonic Boon build, and a few others. Not to mention this would make entire weapons, entire builds, and entire classes obsolete. Just because you are a Warrior, doesn't mean you have to hold a hammer and make a build around knocking people over.

Furthering my point, many weapons the Warrior has offer no hard CC at all. Axes give a cripple, swords give an immobilize that immobilizes you as much as it does them, Rifle only gives cripple, Longbow only gives a short immobilize, and Greatsword only gives a cripple.

Just because you wish to be a CC lord and only use Hammer and Mace/Mace doesn't mean weapons without hard CC are less viable. It also doesn't mean that such weapons can't be used in a different way to support the team, such as buffing, applying Vulnerability, healing, or flat out providing damage.

What a lot of people just don't get is that helping yourself is in fact helping the team. There is a limit that should not be pushed, as going full signets just isn't effective. However, that does not mean that a build that does happen to net you a lot of damage is not viable or optimal for your team.

Edited by Brand, 14 November 2012 - 01:57 PM.

[Brand]

glountz, on 14 November 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

You're not alone.
Greatsword is not so great.
It lacks CC when you need it. 100B is easily wasted, and it's the skill that makes the greatsword so damaging.
Only saving points for it is its whirlwind which is an average dodge tool.

And you know, heavy damage, the ability to stack tons of might and vulnerability, and enabling you to support your team without sacrificing all of your damage. But who cares about all that stuff when we can just say "It doesn't give you CC and it's hard to use properly, so it must be bad."

Edited by Brand, 14 November 2012 - 02:02 PM.

[MrCats]

From reading this topic more i'm getting the impression that some people seem to stick with the 2 weapon sets and that is it. Warriors have the most weapons, each weapon is good at some things and worse than other weapons in other areas. Don't dislike a weapon set just because it cannot do one thing, we have weapons for control, we have sets for damage. Just interchange them when you need them. The GS is a great all round weapon for general slaying and dps support if you arn't tasked with carrying CC so why not use it. If you flip roles to that of control then you probably go with the hammer or a mace combination. Play what you want to play in the given situation. Limiting your choice is always bad, especially for warriors.

[Brand]

MrCats, on 14 November 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

From reading this topic more i'm getting the impression that some people seem to stick with the 2 weapon sets and that is it. Warriors have the most weapons, each weapon is good at some things and worse than other weapons in other areas. Don't dislike a weapon set just because it cannot do one thing, we have weapons for control, we have sets for damage. Just interchange them when you need them. The GS is a great all round weapon for general slaying and dps support if you arn't tasked with carrying CC so why not use it. If you flip roles to that of control then you probably go with the hammer or a mace combination. Play what you want to play in the given situation. Limiting your choice is always bad, especially for warriors.

Well said, thank you my good sir.

[Yarz_Widow]

I run a build of my own whit axe in main hand and alternates between shield and bow for dungeons and axe off and hammer for wvw.  I use a shield and stack/block for might stacks increase DPS. With omnombery pies and maint oils/Sharpening stones to supplement some damage and on average in a fight you will get anywhere from 12 to 25 stacks might stacks form traits. when all said and done in a dungeon your base crit chance is 52% + some sigil bonuses. With all the extra life steal and the regen signet you dont need to increase your hp pool as you can fully maintain it against most mobs. Your total attack sits at about 3.2k-3.3k and your armor varies from 3.5k to 3.8k But im still seeing as to where I can improve.

With full (pwr/crit/tough) knights armor(Divinity), accessories and weps,

25/0/30/0/15

http://gw2skills.net...GZNrIGYcw4RxkAA (Switching out traits depending on the weapons I equip)

Also always carry in pack 1 Mace, 1 GS, 1 Warhorn. I love all weapons but i would agree that GS is just not my favorite despite it being a good weapon.

Edited by Yarz_Widow, 14 November 2012 - 09:50 PM.

[radamant]

glountz, on 14 November 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

100B is easily wasted

care to explain?

[Brand]

radamant, on 15 November 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

care to explain?

If the enemy moves, you have to move, etc.

[Seipher09]

For dungeons ive always use A/A Rifle. Never had any issues really at all going 20/30/0/20/0.

With the axe im 100% mobile. All GS really has is 100B. Get knocked over right when you start or enemy moves....GS always seemed kinda useless to me.

[radamant]

Brand, on 15 November 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

If the enemy moves, you have to move, etc.

i guessed that might be the case, but then you simply have to learn how to play with gs, positioning, nice targets grouping before you hit 100b, etc.. also with proper traits alocation, 100b recharges in 6seconds, so even if you miss, not a big deal. this is for pve only ofc. in pvp, gs has better alternatives.

[Majic]

I got bored of the greatsword and tried pretty much everything else.

Now I run sword/axe and absolutely love it.

YMMV.

[Rohkstorm]

I have no issues with the greatsword qua skills. They have a time and place in which they can and even should be used. When I need on demand and extremely heavy burst damage, the GS is my go-to weapon. If I need mobility with good DPS, Axe/Axe is my go-to set. If I need long range DPS, I use my rifle or longbow depending on the situation (single target/AoE/setting up combo fields/etc). I could go on, but you get my point.

The whole class design is all about having access to nearly every weapon in the game. If you fail to make use out of these options, you are not playing the warrior to it's full potential (in my opinion). With that I don't mean you should constantly be shifting weapons in and out ofcourse. That would be cumbersome and pointless. But you should be looking at the situation you are heading into and plan ahead a little. If you run into a situation where you seemingly die/get downed a lot, try something else. Yes, it's fun to watch gigantic crits fly across the screen, but if you die 3 seconds after, you're not really helping yourself nor anyone else.

That all being said, I do find the GS the most 'boring' weapon in our arsenal. It's got great DPS and decent mobility (it's only decent and not good or better because 100b negates *any* mobility you have). Whereas the other weapons seem more diverse and less specialized.

If I had to pick a 'favourite' weapon set, it'd be Longbow + Axe/Axe. Simply because of the fact you can set up your own combos with this set. Longbow burst skill (8 second (!!!) combo field) + Arcing Arrow + Cyclone Axe + Whirling Axe = Balthazar incarnate combo.

My biggest problem, not unlike with the hammer, it looks so damned silly on my Human female warrior. Not so much the weapon itself, but the way my character holds the weapons and how the animations go. Now, I know I shouldn't exactly ask for too much realism in a fantasy MMO, but every time my warrior swings her hammer, I imagine her flying face-first into the nearest wall or ground because of the momentum such a heavy weapon would impart.

Luckily, my suspension of disbelief is easily triggered.

Edited by Rohkstorm, 15 November 2012 - 11:03 PM.

[matsif]

I personally don't hate it, but I truly prefer the hammer.  more aoe, all the CC it offers, I just like it better.

[Xunlai Agent]

To answer your question I am certain you are not alone, pretty much every hipster Warrior out there confesses their burning hatred for the Greatsword and then loudly professes their love for some snowflake build instead. I hear it gets them street cred with other Guild Wars hipsters or something...

[chullster]

Xunlai Agent, on 16 November 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

To answer your question I am certain you are not alone, pretty much every hipster Warrior out there confesses their burning hatred for the Greatsword and then loudly professes their love for some snowflake build instead. I hear it gets them street cred with other Guild Wars hipsters or something...

What is a hipster? someone from the 60s?

[MrCats]

chullster, on 16 November 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

What is a hipster? someone from the 60s?

Someone who uses/likes something because the bulk of people do not.

[Strife025]

In my opinion, GS offers less then Axe/Mace in dungeons.

Axe/Mace provides 8 stacks of vuln near 100% of the time to compete with Vuln from taking the precision line with GS.

Axe/Mace has an interrupt that can also remove defiant stacks which is huge for dungeons.

Axe/Mace has about the same dps on auto attack, but has faster attacks, which is better for things like omnomberry pies/ghosts.

Axe/Mace does not root you in place when using 100B, which is bad for many boss fights because the boss will either move or you have to interrupt it to dodge.

Axe/Mace has a 1 second cast burst skill that does half the damage of a full 4 sec. 100B chain and also gives you 50% endurance if you are traiting properly for a dps build.

I get using GS while running solo and farming Orr, but I see little reason why it is good in dungeons.

Edited by Strife025, 16 November 2012 - 05:59 PM.

[Brand]

Strife025, on 16 November 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

In my opinion, GS offers less then Axe/Mace in dungeons.

Axe/Mace provides 8 stacks of vuln near 100% of the time to compete with Vuln from taking the precision line with GS.

Axe/Mace has an interrupt that can also remove defiant stacks which is huge for dungeons.

Axe/Mace has about the same dps on auto attack, but has faster attacks, which is better for things like omnomberry pies/ghosts.

Axe/Mace does not root you in place when using 100B, which is bad for many boss fights because the boss will either move or you have to interrupt it to dodge.

Axe/Mace has a 1 second cast burst skill that does half the damage of a full 4 sec. 100B chain and also gives you 50% endurance if you are traiting properly for a dps build.

I get using GS while running solo and farming Orr, but I see little reason why it is good in dungeons.

Because you can run things like Sonic Boon, also the biggest reason ever to use a GS is the Forceful GS trait, and the fact that you can use Berserker's Power, Heightened Focus, and Healing Surge to full effectiveness (Never use your burst)

Axe/Mace cannot compete with the damage, support, and survivability that you see in a build like Sonic Boon. Alls you get is added CC.

Edited by Brand, 17 November 2012 - 02:02 AM.

[TastySlop]

I won't use greatsword because the whirlwind attack animation looks like a Disneyland ride.

[Brand]

TastySlop, on 17 November 2012 - 01:05 AM, said:

I won't use greatsword because the whirlwind attack animation looks like a Disneyland ride.

I'm just going to assume that you think Axe 5 looks majestic and beautiful.

[Strife025]

Brand, on 16 November 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

Because you can run things like Sonic Boon, also the biggest reason ever to use a GS is the Forceful GS trait, and the fact that you can use Berserker's Power, Heightened Focus, and Healing Surge to full effectiveness (Never use your burst)

Axe/Mace cannot compete with the damage, support, and survivability that you see in a build like Sonic Boon. Alls you get is added CC.

I do 2.5k auto attacks and 12k eviscerates on my warrior and never die, how much damage does your build do? I seriously doubt you do more damage then me.

I run dedicated dungeon groups with 2 guardians, don't need support. Guardian supports way better then Warriors ever can, and Warriors do more sustained damage then guardian, why waste the potential.

Forceful is a solo skill for the most part, I already have 20+ might stacks up with an axe/mace build in 5 person groups. If you are actually using warrior to it's full potential as a dps class in a organized dungeon group GS is bad, there are many other classes who can support better but can never reach the dps potential of warriors.

Edited by Strife025, 17 November 2012 - 08:30 AM.

[Brand]

Strife025, on 17 November 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

I do 2.5k auto attacks and 12k eviscerates on my warrior and never die, how much damage does your build do? I seriously doubt you do more damage then me.

I run dedicated dungeon groups with 2 guardians, don't need support. Guardian supports way better then Warriors ever can, and Warriors do more sustained damage then guardian, why waste the potential.

Forceful is a solo skill for the most part, I already have 20+ might stacks up with an axe/mace build in 5 person groups. If you are actually using warrior to it's full potential as a dps class in a organized dungeon group GS is bad, there are many other classes who can support better but can never reach the dps potential of warriors.

The amount of might you have is probably due to the two Guardians and other Warrior there. Just because your build does more damage then mine when all of your teammates are supporting you (Instead of you supporting them) doesn't mean squat. Sure, you're the "DPSer" in your group, and that's fine. However, it is my firm belief that the only ones bringing nothing but damage (Sure you bring FGJ, SIO, and a banner, but all of those with the exception of SIO are for your benefit, and only give your team damage that they probably can't use very effectively) to a dungeon should be Thieves, and even they bring some control.

Also clearly you didn't read my build very well, as it states that the healing you get with the build is a BONUS. You need the 30% boon duration in tactics, and you get healing as a side affect. Minus the 3 accessories and back, the build is entirely geared towards damage, boon/condition support, and survivability.

I highly doubt your build compares to Sonic Boon in terms of usefulness to your group, and I bet the damage would be a non significant loss (From your build -> Mine) as long as you don't have 2 guardians (Wasted group dps potential imo) pumping Might into you (Not even to mention the other warrior)

It's simple that if GS was bad, people wouldn't use it. I've talked to many people who didn't like the looks or skills of Greatsword, but were using Sonic Boon simply because of what it brings to your group.

I'm not going to rag on your build/weapon and say it's worthless, they are different types of things. I think Sonic Boon gives a lot more to the team, but that doesn't mean Axe/Mace is bad, it's probably very good (Just also more selfish in comparison). So just lay off the Greatsword hate and especially saying that it's a waste of potential/worthless. If any weapon was as such it would get a buff, just as if your build is unbalanced it will get a nerf.

Edited by Brand, 17 November 2012 - 09:42 AM.

[MCBiohazard]

I think it's just a matter of priorities and personal preference when deciding on a build and weapon set to stick with. I also think it's good that people can defend their builds as being viable for them because that means the class is staying flexible enough to accommodate those different playstyles. I am playing a somewhat more defensive GS shout build myself, going 0/20/20/30/0 and running Soldier runes to take up some offtank duty. Would I be doing more deeps with might/boon duration and 10/30 points in Strength/Arms? Sure but I like having the extra bit of Compassion without having to trinket for it and having some extra resilence against CC. I like Tactics tree personally but going down the whole line might not appeal to somebody who wants versatile weapon options. They might spread their points in lines so that they can easily swap traits for multiple weapon sets. Others may want to specialize in something specific like heavy CC or full tanking rather than DPS or secondary support. And warriors amazingly kind of let you do some of all of that well enough that you can play it how you want. While its not the bewildering array of options good or bad you had in GW1, I think GW2 has more build flexibility in its classes in it than people want to give credit for.

[MrCats]

To be honest, it's a good thing that several builds are viable. Would be pretty boring otherwise. I find myself switching things up a lot.

[Strife025]

Brand, on 17 November 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

The amount of might you have is probably due to the two Guardians and other Warrior there. Just because your build does more damage then mine when all of your teammates are supporting you (Instead of you supporting them) doesn't mean squat. Sure, you're the "DPSer" in your group, and that's fine. However, it is my firm belief that the only ones bringing nothing but damage (Sure you bring FGJ, SIO, and a banner, but all of those with the exception of SIO are for your benefit, and only give your team damage that they probably can't use very effectively) to a dungeon should be Thieves, and even they bring some control.

Also clearly you didn't read my build very well, as it states that the healing you get with the build is a BONUS. You need the 30% boon duration in tactics, and you get healing as a side affect. Minus the 3 accessories and back, the build is entirely geared towards damage, boon/condition support, and survivability.

I highly doubt your build compares to Sonic Boon in terms of usefulness to your group, and I bet the damage would be a non significant loss (From your build -> Mine) as long as you don't have 2 guardians (Wasted group dps potential imo) pumping Might into you (Not even to mention the other warrior)

It's simple that if GS was bad, people wouldn't use it. I've talked to many people who didn't like the looks or skills of Greatsword, but were using Sonic Boon simply because of what it brings to your group.

I'm not going to rag on your build/weapon and say it's worthless, they are different types of things. I think Sonic Boon gives a lot more to the team, but that doesn't mean Axe/Mace is bad, it's probably very good (Just also more selfish in comparison). So just lay off the Greatsword hate and especially saying that it's a waste of potential/worthless. If any weapon was as such it would get a buff, just as if your build is unbalanced it will get a nerf.

Of course I have that much might from my group, that's the whole point in Forceful Might being a solo tool, I don't need it for groups.

And it's only a bonus if you do the same damage as me. You are not doing the same damage as me with knights armor and healing power accessories. I already commented about that in the post you posted in my build thread. The damage potential of warriors is huge, that's the whole point of axe/mace in organized dungeons. DPS brings speed, both in dps checks like Magg Bomb Event and SE1, and to clear boring high hp bosses quickly like in HotW1.

You seriously have no clue about dungeon comps if you think my group is just supporting me, that is literally the dumbest comment I have ever heard. And FGJ and banners are for yourself? Are you serious right now? Do you know how much damage 20% crit chance and 6 stacks of might near 100% of the time brings to your group with 2 warriors, combined with crit damage and boon duration banners which benefits all the boons the 2 guardians give as well? Not to mention the huge amount of increased crit you give guardians to take advantage of an AH build which is what lets them face tank 95% of the mobs in dungeons while still providing exceptional damage for the amount of defense they provide. Your comment could be true if shouts and banners didn't hit the 4 other people in the group and offer them more dps and survivability and would have looked less dumb if you actually watched the videos in my build thread that you commented in the same time as this one if you think my group can't use "the damage warriors provide effectively." I'm not even sure what that means, I guess everyone stands around and does nothing when a warrior provides offensive boons in the group.

Dungeons are team centric content, certain classes are more capable at certain things. A pseudo trinity still exists if you are talking about the most efficient runs, guardian brings the tank aspect and warrior brings the dps aspect. 2 Guardian and 2 Warrior in Knights/Berserker with a 5th support for combo fields is literally one of the best comps for speed clearing every dungeon (obviously you could run 5x dps for something easy like AC a bit faster probably). 2 guardian/2 warrior provides 100% uptime on most offensive and defensive boons which benefits the entire party without wasted support, 1 hammer and 1 gs guardian brings 100% uptime on most importantly protection, which is the best survivability boon in a dungeon, the ability to group up mobs, and allows you to stay in melee range almost 100% of the time combined with omnomberry pies. Obviously melee damage > ranged in terms of dps, so the ability to constantly cleave multiple enemies and maximize damage is what 2 guardians bring.

I didn't say GS is useless, but I think it does bring less then axe/mace for an organized group and I still stand by the reasons why I hate it. Believe me, we've used it. Everyone in my dedicated dungeon group has at least 3x 80s, we've tried a bunch of builds and classes. Simply put, nothing clears as quick and efficiently as 2 guard/2 war/1 support, with the support being situational.

My build is in response to people asking what we use in dungeons because we clear everything so quickly.

Again I have plenty of proof with speed runs of almost every path except Arah, I have things like CoF 1 in 8 min, CoF2 with full magg clear in 14 min, CoE1 in 16 min (+3 for opening event), the new hard SE1 that people seem to have trouble with in 14 min (this was with a GS war in rares that messaged me after seeing my videos for help through this path), most AC/TA/CM paths under 15 min, bunch of other mindless paths with only bosses that have high health (like HotW1, SE3 in 12 min) etc. etc.
http://www.youtube.c...low=grid&view=0

You have a build on paper, I have a build in response to comments on real footage and based on a 5 person team and taking into account the group as a whole, not a solo PuG comp. Feel free to make a video on the damage and speed that you bring to a dungeon group though and why dps classes are worthless and your build makes everything easier and quicker.

But yes, "Sonic Boon" may bring more to a pug party where everyone is dieing and you need to protect yourself, and I'm not going to say it's useless or bad because it's probably safer for pugs, but it definitely doesn't bring more to the party in a dedicated dungeon group where the Wars are built for maximum sustained dps for group benefit without constantly dieing.

Edited by Strife025, 17 November 2012 - 07:29 PM.

[TastySlop]

Brand, on 17 November 2012 - 02:01 AM, said:

I'm just going to assume that you think Axe 5 looks majestic and beautiful.

No, axe 5 just looks weird as opposed to dorky. Axe 2 is about as silly as I'm willing to get.