399 replies to this topic

[Shayne Hawke]

Manzana, on 13 November 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

I would make the argument using armor comparisons in GW1.  During Prophecies, the earliest you could get max stat armor was at Droknar's Forge, which was supposed to be relatively end-game content.  Imagine that after Lions Arch, after basically half the game, there were no more armor crafters.  You had to go through Maguuma and the desert using only what was available from LA.  Would it be hard?  Yes, but that's the same boat everyone would be in.  Now, lets say that in a patch, Anet added a crafter to the Henge of Denravi who made gear that was in between the stats for LA and Droknar's.  Is it better for those who haven't yet reached Droknars?  Yes.  Is it as good as the best available?  No.  Does getting the Henge armor get you any close to Droknar's armor?  Nope.  Does getting it give you another short term goal, and something else to do while you progress towards Droknar's?  Yep.

This is a totally different hypothetical scenario than what is happening with GW2.  You're describing the addition of a vendor that sells gear that is below the current best-in-slot in order to bridge a gap between best-in-slot gear and something lower witihn a game that's designed such that you don't need specfic gear to complete content.  Ascended gear is better than the current best-in-slot, exclusively is able to hold upgrades that are necessary for completing certain content, and "bridges the gap" between the previous best-in-slot gear and a prestigous best-in-slot gear by itself being a new best-in-slot gear.

If you wanted to make a GW analogy, it would be like the developers adding a third god realm of several levels with deeper levels containing enemies that applied a new type of Spectral Agony which could only be protected against by upgrading a newly introduced set of gear that universally has better stats than what was previously the best.  This analogy doesn't have the new gear acting as a bridge to anything, but nothing in GW was designed like the legendaries of GW2.

Quote

At no point in GW1 or GW2 did you need to have the best gear to enjoy content.  Did it make life simpler? Sure it did.  Were you prevented from playing the rest of the game if you didn't have the best of the best?

As of the moment that Agony is introduced to the game, yes.  The new dungeons will eventually put players against stacks of Agony that can't be overcome without the use of ascended gear, and thus you need ascended gear in order to play that content, which means you need ascended gear in order to play all of the content in the game.  If instead they don't throw sufficient Agony into the new dungeon to require players to move up to ascended armor, then what was the point with adding it whatsoever?  It doesn't serve as a bridge and you don't need it to play any of the content, so why add such a pointless tier at this stage in the game?

[Omgadnowai]

Simple solution options:

1) Add milestones in the dungeons where you are granted an Upgrade Component that can be used once to add an "Infusion" slot to a piece of gear you have, thus turning that item into an Ascended item. These Upgrade Components can be used on any piece of gear, and don't affect its stats. There can exist Exotic Ascended items, Rare Ascended items, etc.

2) Remove the idea of "Infusion slots" and merely replace them with Consumables, such as "Infusion Potions", which grant you temporary defensive boni that will do whatever Infusions were supposed to do. These Infusion Potions could be acquired via a Mystic Forge recipe, much like the initial idea of "Infusion Stones", and could have varied primary and secondary effects. For instance, a "Minor Berserker's Potion of Agony" could add a minor increase to the Berserker stat set WHILE INSIDE THE DUNGEON (Power, Critical Damage, Precision) as well as provide a set percentage of protection from the damage received in the dungeon. Such potions could exist for all statistic sets (including Magic Find), and the efficacy of the damage reduction could depend on the Potion's "level" (Minor, Major, etc.)

3) If a stat creep really is absolutely necessary (which I highly doubt), then add an Upgrade Component to the game that will both add an "Infusion slot" and a slight amount of statistics to an already existing item This way, Rares become stat-equivalent to baseline Exotics, and Exotics are slightly better still. Exotics are, thus, still very valuable, and not MORE nor LESS than they are now. Do not make the Ascended items be acquired via boss/monster drops. Rather, make the Upgrade Components be drops. Subcategories of Upgrade Components need to exist in this case, where the statistics granted by the "Infusion" follow the same pattern as other items (Berserker, Explorer, etc.)

Edited by Omgadnowai, 13 November 2012 - 07:50 PM.

[ToySoldier]

Don't need the gear.  Just a shock the manifesto has not been lived up to, and in fact is changed mid-stream to appease players who want a sense of progression to the point of making current top gear pointless in under 3 months.  The game is now at risk of going the way of all the older mmorgps.

Without fixing the real problem--legendary grind.

I've been hoping for a more people-community oriented game.  This is not shaping up to be it atm.  But more focused on gear again.  It would have been nice if new heart NPCs, new dynamic events are part of legendary gear quest.  To bring the players together in all levels of zones.  As it stands, more and more players are still going to hang in the top tier to gather for their gear.  Enough said.

[d_fens]

Biz, on 13 November 2012 - 07:11 PM, said:

Actually... in 2007 interviews they were quite open to the possibility of non static max stats on items. As far as I know, they never outright promised "We will never ever add items into the game that are better then exotics".

"Here's what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can't realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game.  Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear.  We don't make grindy games -- we leave the grind to other MMOs."

  -Mike Obrien, President of Arenanet

full interview here:

http://venturebeat.c...s:guildwars2-16

[Lordkrall]

d_fens, on 13 November 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

"Here's what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can't realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game.  Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear.  We don't make grindy games -- we leave the grind to other MMOs."

  -Mike Obrien, President of Arenanet

full interview here:

http://venturebeat.c...s:guildwars2-16

And yet again people are ASSUMING that you will need to grind.

How do we know that it will be harder than Exotics?
It might be easier. And yet people do not whine about having to grind for exotics.

[xLOKIx0830]

Lordkrall, on 13 November 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

And yet again people are ASSUMING that you will need to grind.

How do we know that it will be harder than Exotics?
It might be easier. And yet people do not whine about having to grind for exotics.

It's bridging the gap between exotics and legendaries. Why would you make something that is better than exotics easier to get than exotics?

We can speculate all we want, but we don't know how they are going to introduce these new items and how you obtain them. Will they be drops? Do you need tokens? Do you need to craft them? Are exotics required to craft them? Is there only 1 way of getting them, or are there multiple ways?

People are way over-dramatizing this, especially considering we don't know the full picture.

It's worse to know only part of something than to know nothing about it at all.

Edited by xLOKIx0830, 13 November 2012 - 08:10 PM.

[d_fens]

Lordkrall, on 13 November 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

And yet again people are ASSUMING that you will need to grind.

How do we know that it will be harder than Exotics?
It might be easier. And yet people do not whine about having to grind for exotics.

Oh but they do. At current prices, full set of exotic armor costs 18 gold. Add another 10-12 for exotic jewellery. You will NOT earn this kind of money after normally playing from 1 to 80. So you grind in loot parties in Orr. there is no point in leveling crafting to make them, because mats are more valuable than end product. Back to grinding gold in Orr. You can run the same dungeon xxx times for a set. Still you are grinding. How can we believe this time wil be any different?
ANet is shooting themselves in their feet by not releasing more information about those fundamental changes to game design.

[Generic Fantasy Name]

Arewn, on 13 November 2012 - 04:42 AM, said:

So from my understanding, they're adding one more step before legendary so that the jump isn't so big, this final step of gear can also be 'infused'. This new step will only be for a few gear slots, filling more slots with future patches/content.

And the infusion itself is a dungeon specific gear tier that allows you to progress deeper into that dungeon through a stat only needed in that dungeon.


Assuming my interpretation is right, I like it. There's very little power creep since it's only one or two item slots that are getting better, and the main upgrade for those slots is a dungeon specific stat that doesn't make you over all more powerful.

If it stops there, I'm fine with it and I think in the long run even the ragiest of raging forumgoers will learn to live. But if we go from Ascended to Ascended 2.0, 3.0, ... well. In that case, we're just on a regular gear treadmill and you can count me among the disappointed.I'll still be playing, but my attachment to the game would definitely take a hit.

[The Condor]

Lordkrall, on 13 November 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

And yet again people are ASSUMING that you will need to grind.

How do we know that it will be harder than Exotics?
It might be easier. And yet people do not whine about having to grind for exotics.

The article said that ascended gear is between exotic and legendary.  This gear is for people who already have exotic gear and have hit that "legendary wall."  Ascended gear is something for them to work to that is more accessible than legendaries.

If ascended gear is easy to get, then it won't appease the people A-net is catering to for very long.  And those people will hit the "legendary wall" once again, and the ascended gear will accomplish very little; like a one week distraction from legendary grinding.

Also, if ascended gear is easy to get, then pretty soon everyone will have ascended gear and exotics will be worthless.  With each new patch that adds different ascended gear, the exotic equivalent will be irrelevant.  Then there's the whole gear elitism that shows up.

[Lord Sojar]

All this freaking out over a relatively benign update.  

They wanted to add a new combat mechanic to the game.  Ascended armor facilitates that new mechanic.  It's the same as infusion in GW1, except you only need 1 piece of gear to make it happen.  And, since one of those is a back item (which already only have a rare equivalent which sucks stat spread wise).... this is good in that regard.

Rings?  Meh... Whatever.  The stat difference isn't that big a deal.  Also, magic find scales a bit different than stat pts.  

As long as they introduce these new Ascended items slowly into the game, it won't really change much.  If down the road, ANET finds it interferes too much with casual players wishing to try content in the game, they'll implement a fix, much like they did with Infusion's fixes in GW1.  

So, take a few Xanax and calm yourselves.  It's going to be OK.  These changes they don't make lightly.  These are a step between Exotic level and Legendary level.  It's not a continued gear climb, they've already stated that.  It's meant to be more challenging to get these Ascended sets than Exotic, but not nearly as long term as Legendary.  Read the article at face value... don't conspiracy theorize.

[Arewn]

Generic Fantasy Name, on 13 November 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

If it stops there, I'm fine with it and I think in the long run even the ragiest of raging forumgoers will learn to live. But if we go from Ascended to Ascended 2.0, 3.0, ... well. In that case, we're just on a regular gear treadmill and you can count me among the disappointed.I'll still be playing, but my attachment to the game would definitely take a hit.

Exactly, as of now, this is not a gear treadmill. They added one extra tier because there was too big a rarity gap from exotic to legendary. So long as its stops there, it's perfectly fine, no "broken promises" or "betrayal of the manifesto", it's just a matter of re-adjusting gear acquisition pacing since they missed the mark at release. And at only 3 months in, this is hardly a blip on the radar (once again, so long as they don't add more power tiers).

[Rielesh]

btw did someone at least considered this?
we all can agree that guild wars 2 was rushed release with huge amount of bugs etc
now all people are fine with item progression that is in game today (fine masterwork rare exotic legendary whatever)

maybe they wanted this ascended gear to be on release but they could not make it in time ... if you look at it there is huge step between exotics >  rare exotic skins that sometime are priced on par with legendaries preq and legendaries

maybe they should have been ingame from day 1 but they could not make it because publisher demands or so .. its actually good theory maybe bit naive but we'll see that in next year if they introduce something like exalted etc or if they stop here

[Lord Sojar]

Indeed, the rift between exotic and legendary is a black hole of grinding that brings tears to your family and friends who long to see your bloodshot eyes and cracked skin.  

Ascended will help patch that void, giving players a sense of progression as they continue working towards their Legendary stuff if they so choose.  If not, it gives them a more easily attainable goal that may not be "as epic" as a Legendary, but will make them feel like they too are a good player, even if they're not willing to grind until they have stumps left for fingers.

[Dark]

Are you serious? i just saved up for my jewelry and this happens?

[Biz]

d_fens, on 13 November 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

Oh but they do. At current prices, full set of exotic armor costs 18 gold. Add another 10-12 for exotic jewellery. You will NOT earn this kind of money after normally playing from 1 to 80. So you grind in loot parties in Orr. there is no point in leveling crafting to make them, because mats are more valuable than end product. Back to grinding gold in Orr. You can run the same dungeon xxx times for a set. Still you are grinding. How can we believe this time wil be any different?
ANet is shooting themselves in their feet by not releasing more information about those fundamental changes to game design.

That is one way of looking at it, a different way of looking at it is that if you do 3 paths of a single dungeon once a day you get something like 1-2g in loot and rewards and 180 tokens that is enough to buy 1 of the 3 cheapest pieces of dungeon armor. So 1-2hours of a dungeon/per day (doesn't have to be same dungeon either) for a two weeks should be enough to get you full set of exotic dungeon armor, weapon and enough money to get exotic jewelry etc This is as "non grind" as it gets in an MMO. If u don't care for having armor that looks the same all around u don't even need to repeat same dungeon run more then twice.

[ToySoldier]

Dark, on 13 November 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

Are you serious? i just saved up for my jewelry and this happens?

Just bought exotic a week ago and this happened.     It doesn't even bother me much, but the direction of this game as it appears now is a different story.

[NuclearDonut]

Draugadan, on 13 November 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

But what if we don't want to prepare? If I wanted a treadmill, why the hell would I choose Guild Wars 2 over WoW? WoW's got a ton of other stuff to do outside the treadmill. What does Guild Wars 2 have? Oh yes, more grinding.

If you don't want to prepare that is totally your fault. I don't know about you, but I've gotten my money's worth 10x over from this game. I expected to be done playing after the first month, but I still haven't even finished the game. I'm at the point where I could quit at any time and still be happy with what I paid for. ANet has given us a heads-up about ascended armor. If you don't want to prepare for that: either deal with it or quit and start paying 15 bucks a month for kung-fu pandas if that's what you like better.

[Vexies]

Quote

And yet again people are ASSUMING that you will need to grind.

How do we know that it will be harder than Exotics?
It might be easier. And yet people do not whine about having to grind for exotics.

Im not upset by this new gear.  I never signed on to GW2 for some pie in the sky promises I signed on because it was a quality game that is payed a great deal of attention to by its Devs.. and I get LOTS of content for free that I would have to PAY for and did for years.  As far as I see.. thats not changed at all so..

However as to your comment I quoted.  There is no way in hell that they are going to be easy to obtain. I dont think this is a bad thing at all.  IF they where they would lend even more credance to the ZOMG new gear panic that is freaking people out.

1. the rarity of these items are between exotic and legendary.  Do either of these items drop like candy? Nope

2. you dont even need them until you get deep into the dungeon where the debuff becomes over powering. By this it infers that they are not going to be dropping like candy either.

Now they could make them craftable.. and I actually hope they do and not on that stupid forge thing.. but then they probably will go that route. God forbid they ad more for crafters to do but I can hope.

Either way I could care less.  The game is still good, the content is still good and last I checked its still free so.. yeah Ill still be enjoying it but freak out if ya want.

Edited by Vexies, 13 November 2012 - 10:15 PM.

[NuclearDonut]

Faowri, on 13 November 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

I'm too busy playing the game to start preparing to play the game when I'm no longer able to access or complete certain gear-level-gated content.

Then you're even better off than most people. Keep on enjoying the game, and you get to skip rares and exotics and go straight to Ascended gear. That's a luxury many people don't have.

[Hyper Hypno Hustler]

The lack of details in Anet's posts was cute before launch, but it's just annoying now.  I mean, the point of this type of thing is to inform, right?  So, why am I left with more questions than before?

Agony is a condition that can only be mitigated through infusion? Ok, but all condition causing skills in the game can still be blocked, dodged, interrupted or avoided through some other mean. Is getting agony completely unavoidable, or does "mitigate" only refer to once you've been hit?  At what point is agony expected to become insurmountable without infusion?  Will earlier fractals feel much easier once infused?

I'm not even sure why Murdock bothered writing a segment on these because most of the info could be inferred from the picture of the ascended ring.  How powerful are infusions?  What type of effects can we expect?  Do they only affect creatures in the dungeon?

If I left so much key information like that out of school papers, I would, literally, fail every single one.

[Arkham Creed]

After reading this, and holding my tongue on the subject until this was released, I have come a conclusion; I’m okay with this. There is one very important reason why; no upgrade slots.

You’re basically trading versatility for protection from a dungeon specific mechanic and a slight boost in base power. If you can’t add jewels to these things, or I’m assuming runes and sigils once they add armor and weapons, then the slightly higher base stats are justified. Think about that; you can’t put runes in your armor. If that was the case you’d want those base stats to be a little bit higher, so this is a pretty logical step. It also means that you won’t see a very high demand for ascended items outside of that dungeon. After all would you rather have armor with three percent higher stats or a full set of runes suited to your playstyle?

That’s the real comparison we need to make here; is ascended gear without upgrades better than exotic gear WITH full upgrades? Because that ascended gear isn’t going to have upgrade slots.

Edited by Arkham Creed, 13 November 2012 - 11:21 PM.

[Sevens]

Dokem, on 13 November 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

If you don't want to "raid" this new dungeon, you won't need this new tier of gear. Why the let down? This harder content is not for you.

Let's say you can experience the first  5 floors of the dungeon with exotics just fine, and to be able to beat the 6th floor you need infused ascended gear. Well, if you dont want to explore further, you won't need the gear. You dont need it for the other dungeons, most probabl you wont need it for wvwvw, so why bother? Y U BOTHER??!!!

Maybe cause I want to beat it based on my skill....you know like Anet promised us the game was going to be, not a gear treadmill...there are other games that do it much better so if Anet wants to go toe to toe with them im sure it will become a niche game...

[ToySoldier]

Arkham Creed, on 13 November 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

After reading this, and holding my tongue on the subject until this was released, I have come a conclusion; I’m okay with this. There is one very important reason why; no upgrade slots.

You’re basically trading versatility for protection from a dungeon specific mechanic and a slight boost in base power.

Versatility can still come in the form of different types of Ascended gear.  The one we saw had magic find, pretty sure there will be other types.  I feel people will want multiple sets of Ascended.

I too have gotten my money's worth.  As I said in my first post in this thread. This ANet move just means I will never buy top end gear again.  Not gonna spend money on gems to trade for gold to buy gear.  My concern is more for ANet.  As far as I know, gem store and possibly expansions are their means at revenue.  Will this end up helping them?  Or hurting them?

My other problem is I can no longer recommend this game to my friends.  I know they can't grind.  They know they can't grind.  Again, it's not a problem for me, or them.  It is more potentially a problem for ANet.

If anyone here thinks I'm just here to knock ANet, you're wrong.  I actually like the ANet staff, and am trying to think for their revenue.  It's up to them to decide.  I myself have practically no problem with this for my own sake, except oh shucks just bought 2nd tier gear. I had skipped rare. I should have skipped exotic too.  No more spending in gem store, problem solved.  This game is easy enough anyone can make it to top level in low quality gear, imho.

It's ANet's decision.  I'm sure they have plenty of data tracking the % of players doing each type of in-game activity.  So far I actually think ANet is the brightest of the bunch of devs in the industry.  Good luck to them.  But I maintain my position in not being fooled again into buying any "top tier gear" when blue does me well.  I feel my obligation is to pay for expansions.  And my requirement will be to play without running the risk of buying top tier gear, only to have it deemed 2nd top a week later to my total surprise.

I won't even hold my breath legendary will last 5 years.

If ANet has to yield to gear lovers in under 3 months, how in the world will the current legendary hold its value for 5 years?     I won't attempt legendary gear now, and not ever.  Chances are now good there will be be Celestial, or some other fancy names coming up in 1, 2, 3, or 5 years that will be more difficult to achieve than the current legendary.  Names like Celestial are cool for that reason.

I'm sure even for Agony, there will be some sort of blue gear equivalent that will ward Agogy adequately for me in PvE zones meant for soloers.  If blue gear won't do, and I'm forced to grind, I'll quit.  Simple.   I doubt it will get to that. There is a massive population of players on blue gear.  Every one of my friends is in blue gear.  I was the only doh doh who got the bright idea to buy exotic at 80.

Bottom line, in the this is about ANet's gem store revenue, and about players who wish to trade gold for gems. I'm cutting both off when I protect myself.  [Edit add: And the truth is, I am a really average consumer.  There will be lots like me.]

Edited by ToySoldier, 14 November 2012 - 12:32 AM.

[borovnica]

I don't like that they are adding new rarity of gear, but if this is a last one, then I'm ok with it. I just hope they don't make this game into lighter version of gear treadmill because of idiotic people. Also I'll still play this game even if they do, it's so much fun, even after 300+ hours worth every $ I spent on this game

@ToySoldier... lol for blue armor/weapons. You should be wearing at least green ones, ffs it isn't hard to craft one, or even buy one, they are so cheap.

Edited by borovnica, 14 November 2012 - 12:35 AM.

[ToySoldier]

borovnica, on 14 November 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

@ToySoldier... lol for blue armor/weapons. You should be wearing at least green ones, ffs it isn't hard to craft one, or even buy one, they are so cheap.

Hehe thanks for the tip.  I found it cheapest to buy blue armor/weapons in BTP. They can all be transferred to my alts and friends. We have a bank filled with blue stuff from lvl 1 to 75.  We try to upgrade every 5 levels, but one pal is lazy and does it every 20 levels. No problem hunting at all for him.  Last he soloed 4 mobs 1 level above him in blue 20 levels below his lvl. Crazy guy.. and he is handicapped with 4 missing fingers on one hand.  Yay for him!   He's my hero.

[Xodiak]

You need new stuff, shinier, better, upgrades.. awesome news and I hope they continue along this path.

[IsThisNameTaken]

Whoever says that ascended is a level between exotics and legendary needs to quit smoking whatever he/she is smoking. Exotics "used" to have the same stats as legendaries. Because ascended will have better stats now, you obviously can't have legendaries with lower stats than a quality grade lower than it. So now ascended gear is the new "exotics". And not are there "normal" ascended... There are different rarities of ascended... With infusion slots... And this is only the beginning. Seriously, 1.5K armour in GW1 was the best design philosophy ever.

[razor39999]

Catering to the gear grind crowd while alienating the base consumers that made Anet the company it is today. GG
Hint - gear grinders will still leave you when they reach the next plateau.

[AstralPhoenix777]

ToySoldier, on 14 November 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

Hehe thanks for the tip.  I found it cheapest to buy blue armor/weapons in BTP. They can all be transferred to my alts and friends. We have a bank filled with blue stuff from lvl 1 to 75.  We try to upgrade every 5 levels, but one pal is lazy and does it every 20 levels. No problem hunting at all for him.  Last he soloed 4 mobs 1 level above him in blue 20 levels below his lvl. Crazy guy.. and he is handicapped with 4 missing fingers on one hand.  Yay for him!   He's my hero.

Blue (fine) weapons and armour may be sufficient for lolling around PvE zones, even Orr, but if you come up against me wearing my exotic equipment, I have a full +25% armour rating over you, and my weapon does 25% more damage. You're dead meat; this is why gear-grinding is important, and shows how ANet really betrayed the more casual gamers (despite what their PR department spins).

Casual gamers are actually much better off playing the original Guild Wars, where you can reach level 20 and get max-stat gear within 20-30 hours easily...or can just buy into it with a PvP pack. By comparison, it took me 250 hours to get my full exotic equipment at level 80 in GW2. Sure, it can be done a lot quicker than that, but I was taking my time playing the game like I imagine most people do.

[Mordachai1977]

adra12, on 13 November 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

At what % is it not ridiculous? Have you rolled a level 10 in WvW and tried to kill a level 80? Stats do play a role and for ANet to say you could build an character equal character without ever having to kill a mob in the PvE world and then introduce items with higher stats only available from a dungeon completely goes back on one of the main principals of their Manifesto, because that model equates to play more = win more.

I for one will be doing the dungeon because it will be fun, but for ANet to appear to go back on one of their main principals behind this game just feels like a sucker punch.

WvW being unbalanced as it is, it is a poor example to use. Not to mention that there has been a new statement about the ascended gear becoming available in wvw.