192 replies to this topic

[JONO51]

I like the ideas put forth in the op. Personally, if they want to go down the lines of expanding player progression post 80, then I actually think they should sorta look to diablo 3 and (krip)paragon levels. (I know, I know, hear me out on this).

First the basic changes I would make:
-ALL events/hearts will scale lvl80 reward equivalents.
-OP's Zaishen daily 2.0 idea.
-On reaching 80, all of an accounts' characters at level 80 share the same xp pool.
-Implement a Magic Find cap of 100%.

Then, put in a new reward system (account wide, based off the new account wide SP pool) for experience earned skill points at level 80 (so skill point challenge SP's wont count toward this).

e.g.

1-10 = +1% Karma per SP, +1% Magic Find per SP, -2% way point cost per SP

11-15 = +1% Karma per SP, +1% Magic Find per SP

16-40 = +1% Magic Find per SP, -3% Harvesting Tool/Salvage Kit Cost every 5th SP, Bonus Chest every 5th SP (contains a couple of karma jugs or random dungeon tokens or badges of honor or BLTC boosters etc).

41-100 = +1% Magic Find per SP, Bonus Chest every 5th SP. At SP 100 all lvl 80's on the account get a shiny "Veteran" boss portrait.

101-250 = Bonus chest every 5th SP, "Elite" boss portrait at 250. Additional toggle-able cosmetic stuff at every hundredth SP (e.g. special footstep, glowy hands, "speed trail" type stuff, some special emotes, titles, boss aura ala gw1).

251-500 = Bonus chest every 5th SP, "Champion" boss portrait at 500. Additional toggle-able cosmetic stuff at every hundredth SP (e.g. special footstep, glowy hands, "speed trail" type stuff, some special emotes, titles, boss aura ala gw1).

501-1000 = Bonus chest every 5th SP, "Legendary" boss portrait at 1000. Additional toggle-able cosmetic stuff at every hundredth SP (e.g. special footstep, glowy hands, "speed trail" type stuff, some special emotes, titles, boss aura ala gw1).

Obviously all these numbers could be messed around with, etc. The super useful bonuses (karma, WP cost) are earned very soon after 80. The harvesting tool stuff stakes a little longer, but wouldn't give much of an advantage (think of the alliance discounts in GW1). Magic Find is there as a token stat. Together with a cap, it means you wont be at much of a "disadvantage" at all (since popping a omnom bar and few slots of MF gear will get you on par anyway). Cosmetic stuff is at much higher levels as a long term goal/bonus. Since everything gives XP in the game, literally everything at 80 will contribute. To put it all into perspective: to get to SP 100 you'd be looking at ~1400 events, or around 9 months if you just do the daily 5 events, assuming 18k exp a pop, to have every "stat" bonus. For SP 1000, well, you do the math . Obviously stuff like doing a dungeon a day can knock out a big chunk of a level.

Anyway, thats the least offensive way to add some more stats & progression, imo of course.

(inb4 flames)

Edited by JONO51, 14 November 2012 - 01:58 PM.

[Impmon]

Do you think these people make games for you to have fun or to make money ?  lol  

Newsflash kids.  If it means more money for them, it will be added.  What happens to the majority of people who don't like grinding for different armor with same stats as everything else ?  They quit and go back to WOW.

Guess what that means for anet ?  No money.

To assist in cluing you into reality watch the following and pay attention.

[Xellial]

Impmon, on 14 November 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

Do you think these people make games for you to have fun or to make money ?  lol  

Newsflash kids.  If it means more money for them, it will be added.  What happens to the majority of people who don't like grinding for different armor with same stats as everything else ?  They quit and go back to WOW.

Guess what that means for anet ?  No money.

To assist in cluing you into reality watch the following and pay attention.

I'm sorry, are you being a smartass, or do you really beleive the majority of us don't know how business works?

First off, I'll address you saying Anet loses money by not catering to the Wow crowd - Really? So are you saying that them adding content for WoW players that alienates and angers their remaining playerbase is a GOOD idea? I dare say that's utterly inept. The WoW Crowd is gone, they went back to WoW. Bored of WoW? They'll play Rift. Bored of that? No problem, there's plenty of gear grind games out in the market. All they're doing is pissing off the remaining players who stayed for the core philosophy.

You don't do yourself any credit by treating everyone o t he forums like they're idiots and you're somehow smarter than the majority of them. You're not. It may feel good to think so, though.

[Yashimata]

Who the eff tries to compete with WoW? The smart people don't. Those who did try (see: most every 'failed' MMO of the last 5 years) paid the price. You can't compete with WoW for what WoW does, they're the best at it.

[Specialz]

Yashimata, on 14 November 2012 - 01:24 AM, said:

Who the eff tries to compete with WoW? The smart people don't. Those who did try (see: most every 'failed' MMO of the last 5 years) paid the price. You can't compete with WoW for what WoW does, they're the best at it.

I don't think they are trying to compete with WoW per say. But make no mistake of your reasoning iis because of the ascended gear then it is wrong because Guild wars 1 had a very similar progression system hidden between mandatory titles( if you wanted to stand a chance for most of the population).

Edited by Specialz, 14 November 2012 - 02:45 AM.

[sanctuaire]

nice suggestions

agree with some + some other others suggestions:
(feel free to tweak/ make suggestions)

- daily zaishen random dungeon + area/maps
  doing daily in these random maps/ dungeons would only net high-lvl drops
  according to your level

actually with these, the zerg traffic from CS/frostgorge will just transfer to those daily maps.

- how about a blast from the past, ala GW1? each map would have a hard mode, where
  you'll get similar loot & karma boosted to cursed shore levels. that way, players can essentially
  farm on any map, easing the zerg traffic crush on the few lvl 80 maps.

----------------------------------------------------

- perhaps the 'slightly better' stats of the ascended gear only applies to pve?
  or a specific area? (like infused sets for gw1)
  that way, pvp can be still be fair and square; and farmers/grinders have something to aim for.

.

[Nox_Aeterna]

i was ok till now, and im waiting to check out the system.

But if they really add gear with better stats which we can ONLY get in dungeons , well for me the deal is broken , time to wait for the next big MMO tile.

[Mootillay]

I will take a close look at the new ascended gear additions before I rage quit GW2, but I do think they may be underestimating the act of reneging on what I thought to be a pretty important promise.  It could be this is simply an upgrade from our current top tier PvE gear and we're only ~3 months into release so I suppose that could be forgiven.. but if this becomes a carrot-on-a-stick gear treadmill approach, I'm gone.

[Specialz]

Nox_Aeterna, on 14 November 2012 - 03:07 AM, said:

i was ok till now, and im waiting to check out the system.

But if they really add gear with better stats which we can ONLY get in dungeons , well for me the deal is broken , time to wait for the next big MMO tile.

Then what, you are gonna get disappointed again then you move on to the next and the next and the next. Its gonna be an endless cycle. Games are not things you should look forward to given their volatile nature (development changes etc), you should not actively do it because it will always end up in disappointment and all you are left with is anger and bitterness.

[omar316]

Specialz, on 14 November 2012 - 03:52 AM, said:

Then what, you are gonna get disappointed again then you move on to the next and the next and the next. Its gonna be an endless cycle. Games are not things you should look forward to given their volatile nature (development changes etc), you should not actively do it because it will always end up in disappointment and all you are left with is anger and bitterness.

Though you made the best and most reasonable posts since this whole fiasco started, I think you're moving into personal teritory here. Whatever he wants to experience, let it be, and just say "Good luck". Lol.

I was 1 who complained alot about the lack of stuff to do in GW2. Just look through my posts. This new direction is indeed well and good. Giving players something else to do instead of repetitive mundane tasks.

And in all honesty I do not think that this new direction is something cooked up in 3 months, it might have been longer still.

[Life_Infusion]

GW2 is disappointing in its delivery of Manifesto ideals.

Skill>time is dead.

Exotics could have had less advantage over Rares...but Exotics so cheap anyway if you're 80 (a few gold per piece). What happened to cosmetic choices instead of stats? Transmute only?

People complain about endgame. Endgame would not have been an issue if they made the level cap lower so they wouldn't have a glut of unused zones.

Lots of buggy DEs, some buggy renown hearts.

Low level zones pretty empty unless you are on a server that isn't full.

Finding groups for Personal story is basically nonexistent...which is okay if they are balanced properly. See the complaints from glasscannon builds like thieves/eles/etc.

Nickeled and dimed by waypoints, Trading post, and repair costs ala other grindy MMOs.

Economy is a mess. In the first month or so you could get a decent return on sale, now it is 1copper more than merch (i.e. a loss when you sell it due to 15% TP transaction fees).

The ridiculousness of Magic find as a stat and the consumables that boost it.

Bots rampant in first 2 months on Cursed Shore...

Map completion is based on vistas that are a pain to get if you play RTSes and don't play action games/platformers often.

Running dungeons for tokens... it isn't THAT bad but it still is a depart from GW1.

Guardians are highly demanded for Dungeons.

WvW has no real reward armor-wise unlike sPVP/PVE.

Armor variety has been decried by people...

Crafting is a huge loss. Selling materials will be a net profit.

Honestly, I don't think anyone can get the personal storylines/ 5 races done within the timeframe AND gear them. This will be compounded by Ascended items. It promotes staying in high level zones and one character. This is counterproductive to selling character slots.

They could have made this a lvl 30 cap (when you get elites) and had everything from 30+ the same thing but slightly different difficulty. Having 80 levels has led to deserted zones.

There's level adjustment, yeh. But the way equipment is scaled down is unbalanced. Rewards are scaled up, but there's no exotics/rares when you do low level content.

Then there's the PC system requirements side. Good luck with less than an i5 quad core if you play WvW.

... there's more but this is what comes to mind right away

Edited by Life_Infusion, 14 November 2012 - 04:33 AM.

[ilr]

whole thing stinks of nexon

[Specialz]

omar316, on 14 November 2012 - 04:07 AM, said:

Though you made the best and most reasonable posts since this whole fiasco started, I think you're moving into personal teritory here. Whatever he wants to experience, let it be, and just say "Good luck". Lol.

Probably, I think its more like i have been posting here for too long and without my ps3 I am lost no MAG for 2 week. But seriously, though I said that because it is pretty common this forum are full of people that are pretty angry and they all seem to be angry because its not the game they imagine it would be after waiting it for so long.

The reason i seem reasonable is because I hold that PoV and I was just sharing it in a mocking way i suppose.

Edited by Specialz, 14 November 2012 - 04:25 AM.

[Andemius]

Stop blatantly ignoring what made GW1 successful would be my suggestion. It worked because  basic gear was balanced and easy to come by. Fancy armor and weapons are another animal altogether.

Surely this is just a slap in the face to everyone who thought "Yay! Once I have exotic armor and weapons (and have transmuted them to how I want them to look possibly), I can do the activities I enjoy, like WvW or dungeons or crafting (w/e floats your boat)."

[ilr]

Andemius, on 14 November 2012 - 04:35 AM, said:

....exotic armor and weapons (and have transmuted them)

Ugh.... thx for reminding us.  This update better the f*** come with atleast 6 free Advanced T-stones  (or another way to get them besides the cashshop)

[Andemius]

ilr, on 14 November 2012 - 04:42 AM, said:

Ugh.... thx for reminding us.  This update better the f*** come with atleast 6 free Advanced T-stones  (or another way to get them besides the cashshop)

I can't remember where mine came from, BL chest probably, haven't opened one of those in weeks.

[caballo_oscuro]

Anet, when they launched had an idea about how their game would be played, they made grand claims about level not mattering, level scaling etc.

Then after launch people realised that level scaling didn't bring actual level equivalent loot and the rate of dynamic events opening was increased which actually encouraged more rushing through to orr and the end game.

Player expectation was set to encourage revisits to experience new content in old zones but the way it was implemented simply makes all of this redundant cos players want loot/reward equivalent to their level.

It is a bit sad that the original gw premise of cosmetics over stats is now not the way its going and this gear scaling may prove to be to the further detriment of the gw2 world. Essentially what they've done is coralled their player base into a few small areas and although they're adding content as quick as they can, this loot scaling is only going to exacerbate the inevitable burnout problem all traditional mmos experience.
I guess as you get so much for the price of admission and regular updates this cresting of the population with monthly peaks is good for anet right now, apparently they've looked at the numbers and this business model makes sense but there's only so far this can go.

I think lots more max level zones in a new expansion will be the mid term projection, it's probably easier than level-loot parity to engineer but long term will it cause population plateau/financing stability or will the population plummet as the game iterates itself into being the next also-ran?

[Specialz]

Andemius, on 14 November 2012 - 04:35 AM, said:

Stop blatantly ignoring what made GW1 successful would be my suggestion. It worked because  basic gear was balanced and easy to come by. Fancy armor and weapons are another animal altogether.

Surely this is just a slap in the face to everyone who thought "Yay! Once I have exotic armor and weapons (and have transmuted them to how I want them to look possibly), I can do the activities I enjoy, like WvW or dungeons or crafting (w/e floats your boat)."

We don't know easy armor is to come by so that point is moot atm. The other thing is the things that make guild wars 1 successful are probably not applicable to guild wars 2 based on the scope. Guild wars 1 was probably a success based on the scope but the scope for guild wars 2 to be success in the eyes of their publisher is probably higher than guild wars 1. guild wars 2 has a lot of the things that made guild wars 1 special but it seems based on the recent changes that isn't sufficient for a successful guild wars 2.

[Daesu]

Specialz, on 14 November 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

guild wars 2 has a lot of the things that made guild wars 1 special but it seems based on the recent changes that isn't sufficient for a successful guild wars 2.

On the contrary, I don't think GW2 has a lot of the things that made GW1 special.  Seems they went their own way and ignored the lessons learnt in GW1 from the start.  Other than the lore, there is really not much that they have in common.

Edited by Daesu, 14 November 2012 - 05:31 AM.

[DuskWolf]

caballo_oscuro, on 14 November 2012 - 05:08 AM, said:

[...] or will the population plummet as the game iterates itself into being the next also-ran?

That's what will happen, in my opinion. It's like I've been saying... GW2 just feels like a massive bait and switch. We were promised tactics, we got zergs. We were promised a power plateau, we got a treadmill. We were promised fun gameplay, we got something that's barely a step up over WoW (which more genuinely fun games like GW1 and Champions Online shake their heads sadly at). We were promised city activities, and we got barely any. We were promised so much with our home instances, we got none of that

We were promised so much originality, but they were too timid to do anything with it. Look at the charr and the engineer as endemic examples. If they had the balls for it, instead of an unfun flamethrower, they could have given the engineer a chainsaw, they could have given him an entourage of robots, they could have made him like something that sits between the Mastermind of City of Heroes and the hybrid builds of Champions Online.

But the problem is is that it's clear now that ArenaNet doesn't know how to do fun. And worse, NCsoft was bought out by people who've had far too much influence. We've seen tweaked prices, we've seen goalposts pushed back, and now we have a treadmill. I had a feeling that things were going downhill after I noticed what they did between beta 1 and release. And then they brought someone from Maple Story on board, and that was telling in and of itself.

You'll always have fanatics who'll tell you EVERYTHING IS FINE, but it isn't fine. This game is dull, unfun, and grindy. ArenaNet apparently think that that's the game that's going to make them money. But they are oh so wrong. This will end up an also-run, just like The Old Republic has. Oh, on TOR's forums you'll find people who'll still tell you that everything's fine. But at this point? EA has pretty much said aloud that TOR was a failure.

TOR was such a failure that the heads of Bioware took the fall for it.

And Guild Wars 2 is going down that road, too. The same road as WAR. The same road as every MMORPG that's wanted a slice of the WoW pie. Because that's what this is. We'll have exclusive content, next. "YOU NEED X ARMOUR & WEAPONS TO ENTER." That's what will happen, and then teh transformation will be complete. This is one of the reaons why I keep going back to Champions Online, you know?

Champions Online continues to be fun, it doesn't do gear treadmills, it doesn't do exclusive content, and it's a game that wears its heart on its sleeve. I bought into ArenaNet, I thought that they were going to be passionate about what they were doing, I thought that they were being candid and honest. And at the end of the day? They were snake-oil salesmen.

That's how I'll always remember them, I can't even be generous because of Guild Wars 1.

Snake-oil salesmen.

And you know how some people are, and all those bridges you could sell them.

So, just like TOR, we'll have people saying EVERYTHING IS FINE until they finally realise that it really, really isn't. As for me? I was hoping for the realisation of the potential of Guild Wars 2. But it's too timid, too tame, and becoming closer to WoW with every passing day. Instead, I'm just looking forward to Neverwinter at this point.

I'm kind of pissed, yeah.

It could have been great.

It really could have.

Coulda

Woulda

Shoulda

Sigh.

[Specialz]

Daesu, on 14 November 2012 - 05:29 AM, said:

On the contrary, I don't think GW2 has a lot of the things that made GW1 special.  Seems they went their own way and ignored the lessons learnt in GW1 from the start.  Other than the lore, there is really not much that they have in common.

Short of making guild wars 2, guild wars 1.5 it does. A lot of the things that made guild wars 1 special were actually the in some ways the very things that made it not as successful. Most of the things you see people talk about on the forums are things that were extremely niche among the game like GvG etc. A lot of people complained when they change from a wack-a-mole system to a more action based system and quit the game or did no buy the game. some people seem to like having 1000 skills that 90% of them were useless and the other few were nothing more than a slight modification of another. all those things defined guild wars 1 and none of those things in this day and age would have made guild wars 2 anymore successful than it is.

Honestly, guild wars 1 did not aged well (not graphics) as compared to the same games that came out before and around the same thing it did. That should say a lot about the game.

OFC, this is nothing more than a difference of opinion. I have played guild wars 2 almost twice as much as I played guild wars 1 between (2005 and 2008).

Edited by Specialz, 14 November 2012 - 05:46 AM.

[Daesu]

Specialz, on 14 November 2012 - 05:43 AM, said:

Short of making guild wars 2, guild wars 1.5 it does. A lot of the things that made guild wars 1 special were actually the in some ways the very things that made it not as successful. Most of the things you see people talk about on the forums are things that were extremely niche among the game like GvG etc. A lot of people complained when they change from a wack-a-mole system to a more action based system and quit the game or did no buy the game. some people seem to like having 1000 skills that 90% of them were useless and the other few were nothing more than a slight modification of another. all those things defined guild wars 1 and none of those things in this day and age would have made guild wars 2 anymore successful than it is.

Honestly, guild wars 1 did not aged well (not graphics) as compared to the same games that came out before and around the same thing it did. That should say a lot about the game.

OFC, this is nothing more than a difference of opinion. I have played guild wars 2 almost twice as much as I played guild wars 1 between (2005 and 2008).

So you are saying that GW2 has "a lot of things" that made GW1 special simply because they have similar sounding names?  

I have completed both games, played GW1 for more than 7 years without break, and played GW2 from beta till now.  These are two very different games, so other than the common lore and the similar sounding game name, GW2 does not have much in common with GW1 in terms of game design.  

We were able to get max stat gear EASILY from drops by the time we completed the game in GW1.  So easily that max stat gear by themselves are not worth anything in GW1.  Now, compare that to GW2.

GW2 seems to depart more and more away from the GW1 manifesto with each content update.  It is becoming more like WoW and like any other MMO out there which leaves a very bad taste in my mouth every time I think about what it has become.

Edited by Daesu, 14 November 2012 - 05:58 AM.

[DOSGAMES]

I've followed games in development for far too long to continue to drink too deeply from the developer's Kool-Aid.  Anet made that video not as a "Manifesto" but as a promotional video.  I always take the 'ideals' of developers with a grain of salt.

Compare it to President Obama's stump speeches; it's meant to get people excited and rally support.  It has little to do with the actual policies or platform.

Famously, Peter Molyneux used to hype up his games; acting as if they were of a spiritual nature, like they were the beginning of some video game Renascence.  It only took about 2 sub-par games for people to figure out he was full of crap.

Business is business, a product will sell not due to it "Manefesto" but its quality and appeal.

Anet made a business move and I actually like where they are going with it.

Edited by DOSGAMES, 14 November 2012 - 05:55 AM.

[Daesu]

DOSGAMES, on 14 November 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

Business is business, a product will sell not due to it "Manefesto" but its quality and appeal.

Anet made a business move and I actually like where they are going with it.

If you like where they are going then they should have turned their "Manifesto" 180 degrees when they made them, in order to attract customers like you.  They shouldn't have made their "Manifesto" like they did to attract customers like us instead who are now raging against them.

[Nox_Aeterna]

Specialz, on 14 November 2012 - 03:52 AM, said:

Then what, you are gonna get disappointed again then you move on to the next and the next and the next. Its gonna be an endless cycle. Games are not things you should look forward to given their volatile nature (development changes etc), you should not actively do it because it will always end up in disappointment and all you are left with is anger and bitterness.

Well not really in my case at least , 400 hours played atm , spent $100 total in this game. Good trade if you ask me.

Honestly , i played far to many games , i know every game will reach an end. the question is only if it was an nice ride till it does.

[Princess Fatora]

Yeah, thats why I'm not angry. Even if I have to quit now due to the changes, I got more than my money worth overall, and I definitely don't regret playing.

I think it's mostly sad, I hate to see obvious corporate pushes destroying a developers vision like this. It sucked with Ultima 8+9, it sucked with Might&Magic IX and it sucks here.

[Andemius]

Specialz, on 14 November 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

We don't know easy armor is to come by so that point is moot atm. The other thing is the things that make guild wars 1 successful are probably not applicable to guild wars 2 based on the scope. Guild wars 1 was probably a success based on the scope but the scope for guild wars 2 to be success in the eyes of their publisher is probably higher than guild wars 1. guild wars 2 has a lot of the things that made guild wars 1 special but it seems based on the recent changes that isn't sufficient for a successful guild wars 2.

Play through the game and you'll have more than enough tokens and karma to get at least 1 set of exotic armor. Compare that to GW1, farm for a couple days (casually), or play through the content and you'll have enough for 1 set of armor, plus weapons.

GW1 equipment was balanced on appearance over stats. That is why it worked. If I wanted some shiny weapon, great I have to work for it, but when I get it it's not gonna be any better than the one offered by weaponsmiths.

Quote

Honestly, guild wars 1 did not aged well (not graphics) as compared to the same games that came out before and around the same thing it did. That should say a lot about the game.

As for that, did you see the other mmos at the time? WoW graphics have always been terrible, and I can't think of another one which had better graphics that came out the same time.

In any case, we've been lied to. Gear treadmill was not what was promised.

[Lordkrall]

Andemius, on 14 November 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

Play through the game and you'll have more than enough tokens and karma to get at least 1 set of exotic armor. Compare that to GW1, farm for a couple days (casually), or play through the content and you'll have enough for 1 set of armor, plus weapons.

GW1 equipment was balanced on appearance over stats. That is why it worked. If I wanted some shiny weapon, great I have to work for it, but when I get it it's not gonna be any better than the one offered by weaponsmiths.



As for that, did you see the other mmos at the time? WoW graphics have always been terrible, and I can't think of another one which had better graphics that came out the same time.

In any case, we've been lied to. Gear treadmill was not what was promised.

Indeed, but you still needed to farm about 50 platinum in order to get the runes needed to be "good enough" and the weapons with the right mods where rather hard to get as well.

We have not been lied to. They never stated they would never add a higher tier than Exotic.

[SigillumMilitum]

Andemius, on 14 November 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

As for that, did you see the other mmos at the time? WoW graphics have always been terrible, and I can't think of another one which had better graphics that came out the same time.

In any case, we've been lied to. Gear treadmill was not what was promised.

Lineage II was pretty good, though they relied mostly on excellent textures, over detailed meshes. Now, if only the gameplay was as good as the art direction (yeah, one of the infamous KMMO grindfests)...

[Andemius]

Lordkrall, on 14 November 2012 - 08:17 AM, said:

Indeed, but you still needed to farm about 50 platinum in order to get the runes needed to be "good enough" and the weapons with the right mods where rather hard to get as well.

We have not been lied to. They never stated they would never add a higher tier than Exotic.

50 is a bit excessive. The only real cost would be a superior vigor rune, which for the price isn't particularly worth the extra 9hp if you're on a budget. Also collector weapons with max mods were also readily availble.

No, what was said was there would be no grind for gear. I cba finding the actual quote, but that is the bones of it.

SigillumMilitum, on 14 November 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

Lineage II was pretty good, though they relied mostly on excellent textures, over detailed meshes. Now, if only the gameplay was as good as the art direction (yeah, one of the infamous KMMO grindfests)...

Have to take your word for that, never played Lineage when it came out!